I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well
It's a right f**king mess. What's killing the talks is the fact that the Govt's aim is not sorting out the talks. Its priority is avoiding dealing with those three points because the choice is between solutions that don't work and solutions that the Tory party won't accept. So the real priority is prevaricating and stopping the Tory party from descending into civil war. Meantime, we charging at full speed towards a No Agreement Brexit. Then you'll see what a disaster you've voted for.
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well
Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?
At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team, who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.
Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well
Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?
At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team, who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.
Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads
Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.
Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.
Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?
Which reinforces my point, the French were quick to forget what the UK sacrificed for their freedom
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.
Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?
Which reinforces my point, the French were quick to forget what the UK sacrificed for their freedom
Almost as quickly as forgetting what the Free French Forces and Free French Navy sacrificed fighting on the British side all over the world, eh?
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.
Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?
Which reinforces my point, the French were quick to forget what the UK sacrificed for their freedom
Almost as quickly as forgetting what the Free French Forces and Free French Navy sacrificed fighting on the British side all over the world, eh?
Without the UK the free french would n't have been free very long
Filo mate, if your argument for Brexit boils down to "two world wars and one world cup" then you should probably just pack in.
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well
Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?
At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team, who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.
Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads
Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well
Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?
At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team, who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.
Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads
Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is
Don't be ridiculous man , I'm calling you pathetic not because you disagree with my views or me with yours but using the WW11 argument constantly. I have noto asserted that we that the French should show any gratitude.
What has the bloody WW2 got to do with this ? Every nation died winning that war , most of all the Russians and it was 80 years ago .
It's that very fact that matters and my only view on it bearing in mind these are facts is you using them to justify your argument somehow- they are not relevant to the question in hand.
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well
Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?
At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team, who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.
Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads
Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is
Don't be ridiculous man , I'm calling you pathetic not because you disagree with my views or me with yours but using the WW11 argument constantly. I have noto asserted that we that the French should show any gratitude.
What has the bloody WW2 got to do with this ? Every nation died winning that war , most of all the Russians and it was 80 years ago .
It's that very fact that matters and my only view on it bearing in mind these are facts is you using them to justify your argument somehow- they are not relevant to the question in hand.
If that were the case you would have typed pathetic argument, not pathetic man
I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well
Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?
At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team, who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.
Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads
Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is
Don't be ridiculous man , I'm calling you pathetic not because you disagree with my views or me with yours but using the WW11 argument constantly. I have noto asserted that we that the French should show any gratitude.
What has the bloody WW2 got to do with this ? Every nation died winning that war , most of all the Russians and it was 80 years ago .
It's that very fact that matters and my only view on it bearing in mind these are facts is you using them to justify your argument somehow- they are not relevant to the question in hand.
If that were the case you would have typed pathetic argument, not pathetic man
One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!
One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!
That's because we didn't BB or did you miss the Government explanation that '' our people felt as if they had lost sovereignty
see :- The Brexit White Paper
Parliament has “remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that”, the Brexit White Paper says.
The statement contradicts a key message from the campaign to leave the European Union, which argued ending the UK’s membership to the EU would "bring back sovereignty" to Parliament and end Brussels' control over national laws.
But in a section titled “taking control of our own laws”, the White Paper states: “The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that.”
A lot of remainers don't think we lost our sovereignty to the EU in the first place.
One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!
A lot of remainers don't think we lost our sovereignty to the EU in the first place.
Ha ha ha ha ha! Since when have I been an expert on the outcome of leaving the EU?!!!! That's why I was relying on you to tell me!!!!
Why am I still trying to fight the referendum? Are you serious? You're having a laugh, aren't you? You are, aren't you!!!!
Ha ha ha ha ha! Since when have I been an expert on the outcome of leaving the EU?!!!! That's why I was relying on you to tell me!!!!
Why am I still trying to fight the referendum? Are you serious? You're having a laugh, aren't you? You are, aren't you!!!!
What are you talking about?!!! You asked me "What has sovereignty got to do with Brexit negotiations today"? I answered by saying "Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should Brexit negotiations go against us".
I suggest you ask them, not me. I only answered your question of what has Sovereignty got to do with negotiations today!
Remember Mr Wilts, You seem to be the expert on everything about everything. I've always insisted that predicting the result of Brexit would be complete conjecture. I've NEVER, EVER tried to imply otherwise.
What are you talking about?!!! You asked me "What has sovereignty got to do with Brexit negotiations today"? I answered by saying "Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should Brexit negotiations go against us".
I suggest you ask them, not me. I only answered your question of what has Sovereignty got to do with negotiations today!
Remember Mr Wilts, You seem to be the expert on everything about everything. I've always insisted that predicting the result of Brexit would be complete conjecture. I've NEVER, EVER tried to imply otherwise.
You have certainly more than implied that the Brexit negotiations have broken down because of 'sovereignty' or is writing it not implying it?
It makes me an expert because I answer your questions does it? Seems everybody is an expert these days Mr Bentley.
Thing is BB, it's NOT complete conjecture. That was what Gove wanted you to believe when he said that people were fed up with listening to experts.
He said that because economists overwhelmingly believe that Brexit will cause a long-term hit to our economic performance. Because it will make trade with our nearest and biggest markets much harder. There are few things that economists from across the political spectrum are so united on.
It is also commonly agreed by economists that the worst effects could be mitigated by remaining in he single market and the customs union. But, for reasons known only to her, May has rejected that option. Even Farage was touting the Norway Option last June. We've chucked that option away. For political reasons. I'll guarantee you that the vote would have gone the other way if that had been made clear at the time.
Now, the economists may be wrong. It's doubtful, but possible. I'd feel a good bit more comfortable if someone on the Brexit side was giving concrete reasons why. Instead of what we've got at the moment, which is vague "it'll be alright" and "nobody knows anyway."
BB
Which economists predicted an immediate recession?
BB
What can "we" do?
I have you an analogy 18 months back.
Imagine you're on a plane. There's a big nasty thunderstorm ahead. One pilot wants to fly through it. One wants to go round it.
There are aeronautical engineers on board. They say that if you fly through the storm, the structure of the plane will be endangered. The bullish pilot argues passionately that everything will be fine. And that he'll try to avoid the worst of the storm anyway. The more cautious one says he's worried that there will be problems.
The passengers have a vote and decide to ignore the experts and fly through.
You start flying through. At first there's no massive sign of trouble. Then the plane starts vibrating. Bits start falling off. Not the precise bits that were predicted. But some.
Meantime, the bullish pilot actually ignores what he said about avoiding the worst of the storm, and flies straight into the worst of the wind.
That is an almost perfect analogy for what has happened.
So. As a passenger, do you sit there and say, "well the experts didn't get it right. Let's just carry on." Or do you start to think that the original vote was rather iffy. That things are turning out pretty bad. And that it might be worth pushing for a change of plan?
Dunno Filo. It hasn't got to the worst part yet. But the "experts'" predictions are broadly coming true.
Still, the pilot says it'll be alright if we just shut up and let him/her deal with it.
What are you talking about?!!! You asked me "What has sovereignty got to do with Brexit negotiations today"? I answered by saying "Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should Brexit negotiations go against us".
I suggest you ask them, not me. I only answered your question of what has Sovereignty got to do with negotiations today!
Remember Mr Wilts, You seem to be the expert on everything about everything. I've always insisted that predicting the result of Brexit would be complete conjecture. I've NEVER, EVER tried to imply otherwise.
You have certainly more than implied that the Brexit negotiations have broken down because of 'sovereignty' or is writing it not implying it?
It makes me an expert because I answer your questions does it? Seems everybody is an expert these days Mr Bentley.
Mr Wilts, where have I implied that Brexit negotiations have broken down, because of sovereignty or otherwise? I don't even know if negotiations have broken down!
Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should Brexit negotiations go against us.
So if you answer a question about Brexit negotiations breaking down with a reply about people being concerned about sovereignty what does that imply?
I am surprised you dont know they broke down last week. I would post you a link to the news stories about them but I know you dont like people putting sources on their information. Maybe you need to rub your crystal ball harder.
One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!
One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!
Na Mr Wilts, it was this fella above.
I voted to stay in, knowing that a vote to come out would be disruptive.Neither Cameron(the fool) or Bojo (the bafoon) put up much of a credible arguement why we should stay in or leave,and the E.U. giving next to nothing to Cameron,and scaremongering, and the influx of Syrian and economic immigrants from Africa being at its height swayed the electorate.
Endless debates with second class M.Ps. mostly with very little substance in debate except to slag each other off, let quick thinking Farage make them look fools,he had an answer to all their quips because of Camerons failure,and the repetitive nature of the remainers arguement.
Now the die is cast,the remainers are being seen as to be people who think that the common people are not to be trusted to make such an important decision,and in my opinion have succeeded in alienated even more of the electorate against staying in the E.U.
Never before has the electorate been more divided,but the latest polls have shown a widening of the vote to leave, as more resentment against the E.U. leaders of the negotiations play hard ball,and ours try to turn it into a battle of the generations,pitting young against old.
Me, I would now vote out,I do not like to be took for granted,nor do I like being threatened,what I do want, and expect, is for our M.Ps. to start doing their best for this country instead of looking after themselves.
If they can do that then maybe,after a few years, we will come out of the other end of this mess in a better position as a country.
I believe brexit is like a marriage. One person ask to other to change. They said no. Should the unhappy one be expected to stay? Or leave?
Of course they shouldn't bend over backwards to accommodate us, I'm not sure who is expecting them to. I would imagine our aim is to prevent an unfair divorce settlement which has been designed to discourage other EU countries from wanting to separate.
There's also a whispered sub-text.Remember when you were calling for Corbyns head?
"What's that Mrs May? You say we can't come to any agreement on the Big Three issues? Because if you give any ground whatsoever, it'll tear apart the Tory party? Oh dear! That's a shame isn't it? We thought the whole idea of the Referendum was to sort out this split in your Tory Party. Hey! Maybe you should call a General Election and get a strong mandate in Parliament to face down your mad right wing? What's that? You tried it and you utterly f**ked it up by being unable to function like an adult in public? Oh dear!
"What's that Mrs May? You want us to forget about those three issues for now, and start talking about how WE are going to help YOU? That's a good one Mrs May. You British and your sense of humour! Ha-ha-ha-ha!"
FiloMaybe if the EU had tried harder to make us stay when negotiating with Cameron the referendum would have had a different outcome.
No. What the EU is saying is: "We have a responsibility to 450million people. YOUR choice to leave is potentially going to have some very, very seriously negative consequences for some of those. Leaving is YOUR choice, not ours. If there are seriously negative consequences for you Brits, then we're very sorry about that. Maybe you should have considered that before you voted to leave. Now, let's sort out how we are going to mitigate the worst outcomes for the EU citizens. And then we'll be perfectly happy to talk about how to help your economy not fall off a cliff in 16 months time."
Is that unreasonable? I think it's perfectly reasonable.
If my neighbour decided to smash all his windows, chuck the glass over the hedge, then ask me to help him replace his windows, I think I'd be within my rights to ask him to sort out the mess in my garden first. If he complained that he hadn't realised how cold he was going to be in the winter, and I was being unfair, I doubt I'd change my stance.
There's also a whispered sub-text.
"What's that Mrs May? You say we can't come to any agreement on the Big Three issues? Because if you give any ground whatsoever, it'll tear apart the Tory party? Oh dear! That's a shame isn't it? We thought the whole idea of the Referendum was to sort out this split in your Tory Party. Hey! Maybe you should call a General Election and get a strong mandate in Parliament to face down your mad right wing? What's that? You tried it and you utterly f**ked it up by being unable to function like an adult in public? Oh dear!
"What's that Mrs May? You want us to forget about those three issues for now, and start talking about how WE are going to help YOU? That's a good one Mrs May. You British and your sense of humour! Ha-ha-ha-ha!"
Idler
So you've not seen Macron proposing a multi-grouping for Europe? A well-integrated inner core set of countries, with others around the periphery opting out of various aspects?
Why care what Juncker says? He's utterly irrelevant.
Filo. Yes. Exactly. So they are no negotiating in good faith. So what do you expect the EU to do? Negotiate in their terms?
When the EU talk about the UK paying the divorce bill, maybe they should take a leaf out of their own book
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41774817
When the EU talk about the UK paying the divorce bill, maybe they should take a leaf out of their own book
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41774817
$600 quid this year and things have hardly started, how much next year and the next..............l
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/03/no-deal-brexit-could-add-930-a-year-to-uk-shopping-bills-say-experts
The evidence is mounting daily and coming from normally very sober conservative sources and unless the people of Britain have their say and demand another vote.......................
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/03/no-deal-brexit-could-add-930-a-year-to-uk-shopping-bills-say-experts
The evidence is mounting daily and coming from normally very sober conservative sources and unless the people of Britain have their say and demand another vote.......................
Is there any conservatives or Labour or whoever for that matter going to be left in Parliment after the next week or so :):)
SydneyI see a steady decline in personal wealth and over a couple of generations a continued drift into poverty for more and more people coupled with controls of freedom. The UK is already one of the most monitored societies at every opportunity in the name of terrorism laws are changed to allow the police and other agencies to access data that allows them to see whom you contact where you spend your money and where you travel and none of these laws have sunset clauses as far as I'm aware. Go back 20 years and I'd have thought that we were in a cycle where those in lower socioeconomic positions would be able to claw themselves out and to build/rebuild lives but nowadays this is much more difficult. Sorry to paint a picture of gloom but where and how does someone that has fallen on hard times go to resurrect their lives.
Thing is, none of those arguments are getting through. We're in an age of entrenched opinions. No-one wants to listen to information which suggests that they might be wrong.
We're all guilty of it.
In that sense, Michael Gove almost hit the nail on the head when he said that people had had enough of listening to experts. What he really should have said was that people had hade ouch oflistening to experts who challenge their deep-seated beliefs.
On this subject, you have to go a long, long way to find an expert economist who things there's anything positive to come out of Brexit. We're already seeing the initial negative effects. Weaker pound. Higher inflation. Weaker economic growth.
Most economists aren't predicting a sudden cliff-edge collapse because of Brexit. Instead, they are predicting a long, slow reduction in economic performance relative to the rest of Europe and the World. That will hurt hugely over time. If our GDP growth drops by 1% per year (which is the general average prediction) then by the late 2030s, we'll be £2-3trn poorer than we should have been. That's a lot of doctors and hospitals and teachers and schools and roads and railways. Moreto theooint, that sort of long, slow decline would put us on a much lower economic standard than currently, where, person for person, we are roughly level with Japan, Germany, France, USA, Canada etc. We won't be in their league in 20 years time if those prijections are right. We'll have taken our country back, but it will be a significantly weaker and poorer country.
But there's enough people who are prepared to ignore those predictions. Prepared to ignore experts who say things that make them uncomfortable.
Still, in a recent poll, 40% of pensioners who voted Leave said they would do so again. even if it resulted in a family member losing their job.
Wolf
Remember the context of the question.
What would you vote if you knew that leaving the EU would result in a family member losing their job.
That's the point. If people KNOW that leaving the EU wil be seriously detrimental to the economy, even the majority of pensioner Leavers would change their mind (although I do wonder what is in the heads of that 40%...)
The point is that there's been enough muddying of the waters for a lot of the Leave supporters to be able to convince themselves that the economy will be alright. In poll after poll, a majority of Leave supporters still think that the economy will get better or stay the same after Brexit. That opinion is shared by only about 1 economist in 10.
100% + we can do better than this, are we brave enough to test the waters? We can start a "Reverse Brexit Now" petition, we just need 5 people to kick it off.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check
100% + we can do better than this, are we brave enough to test the waters? We can start a "Reverse Brexit Now" petition, we just need 5 people to kick it off.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check
Agreed - but there must be such a move underway - surely ?
A petition has to be unique to be accepted and although my quick search found there are some that want to take certain paths if negotiations break down I couldn't find one that just stated "Reverse Brexit" without any conditions100% + we can do better than this, are we brave enough to test the waters? We can start a "Reverse Brexit Now" petition, we just need 5 people to kick it off.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check
Agreed - but there must be such a move underway - surely ?
Brexit for most people was never about money for the nhs it's about immigration, it's about if you say something about someone foreign your a racist, this country has gone mad,you have lawyers for Muslims lawyers for blacks which in it's self is racist, nothing is for the white British( it shouldn't be everyone should be equal) but there not everyone has rights bar the British white person, no doubt my post is racist but it's how I feel
100% + we can do better than this, are we brave enough to test the waters? We can start a "Reverse Brexit Now" petition, we just need 5 people to kick it off.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check
Agreed - but there must be such a move underway - surely ?
I think that's about to happen the current UK Government can be likened to an old , shaky table - a small tug on one of the legs and it's gone completely,
Wolf
I'd guess you're disenchanted for the same reason I am. That holding a referendum in this topic was stupid beyond description. It is a fiendishly complex topic and the "debate" that we had last summer barely sharpened the knife, let alone scratched the surface.
The problem was (and it was criminal stupidity of Cameron not to understand this) once you accept that it is impossible to properly analyse the overwhelming complexity of the issues in a referendum, you have to accept that the decision will be made, more or less on gut instinct. And the Leave side had a far stronger hand there.
The Leave side coined a brilliant phrase: Take Our Country Back! That chimed with people on an instinctive level. Underneath that, they had this line that the worst consequences wouldn't happen because we are a big economy that can trade with the rest of the world, and that the EU would want to give us a decent deal anyway. And finally, the money. Leave had the simple fact that, on basic accounting, we pay more than we directly received back.
Those were powerful arguments. Grossly over-simplistic, but that's what you need in a referendum.
Reamisn's case had to be much more complex. Less instinctively appealing. It had to accept that the EU wasn't perfect. That the decision to remain should be one on balance between two less than perfect alternatives. That the economic case to remain (which is utterly overwhelming) required complex analysis to understand.
The Remain campaign never developed its equivalent of Take Our Country Back! Corbyn took thisto an extreme, openly criticising the EU and saying the case to remain was 7/10. As though that would inspire people to vote Remain.
That's why I'm so f**ked off with the whole process. A decision that was way too complex to have a referendum over. That's not being condescending. It's backed up by evidence. An opinion poll in the week after the vote found that 47% of people believed that the £350m a week claim was true. THAT was the environment in which we made the biggest decision in 3 generations.
Doesn't Corbyn also want to leave the single market? Who would represent the argument for us?
Wilts
You are being rather disingenuous there, as I'm sure you know.
100% + we can do better than this, are we brave enough to test the waters? We can start a "Reverse Brexit Now" petition, we just need 5 people to kick it off.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check
Agreed - but there must be such a move underway - surely ?
I think that's about to happen the current UK Government can be likened to an old , shaky table - a small tug on one of the legs and it's gone completely,
Hoola
Given the recent news about Damian Green, I'd rather not think about anything old and shaky in the Tory party getting a tug.
Brexit for most people was never about money for the nhs it's about immigration, it's about if you say something about someone foreign your a racist, this country has gone mad,you have lawyers for Muslims lawyers for blacks which in it's self is racist, nothing is for the white British( it shouldn't be everyone should be equal) but there not everyone has rights bar the British white person, no doubt my post is racist but it's how I feel
Hoola, I don't know anybody who is against immigrants coming into the country to work and not rip the system off. Not wanting immigrants who are here to rip the system off isn't racism. The same people don't want British people ripping the system off either.It's hard to know where to start when faced with such misrepresentation of facts, it's not the people you seek to blame for the problems in the UK but those listed in the Paradise Papers, those that control the money and power, those that allow zero hours contracts etc etc, these rent seekers do far more damage than any number of immigrants.
In my humble, and unqualified opinion, I reckon that's the main reason why the vote went tits up.
Hoola, I don't know anybody who is against immigrants coming into the country to work and not rip the system off. Not wanting immigrants who are here to rip the system off isn't racism. The same people don't want British people ripping the system off either.
In my humble, and unqualified opinion, I reckon that's the main reason why the vote went tits up.
I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.
I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?
I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.
I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?
Pleased you had the common sense
Yes huge risks for little return
It should be
No its not as the experts ( not the Far Right ) know.
Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?
I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.
I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?
Pleased you had the common sense
Yes huge risks for little return
It should be
No its not as the experts ( not the Far Right ) know.
With risk comes potential - granted it's not being managed well to unleash potential but it's there.
Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?
Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP to be used in English papers .
IdlerThanks for that Billy.
Good post until the final sentence.
Have a look at page 5 here.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4y1e1sdlwa/InternalResults_171024_VI.pdf
30% of the electorate, 52% of Tory supporters and 58% of Leave voters think that if we have a Hard Brexit without an agreement on our future relationship with the EU, it will either have no consequence or it will be a good/very good thing. Oh aye, and Liam Fox said last week that it wouldn't be a disaster if we left without a deal. And May keeps parroting that line that No Deal Is Better Than A Bad Deal.
As things currently stand, there is a very real, and increasing chance that we WILL leave without an agreement. Because, as I posted back up the thread, the Tories cannot agree to the EU terms in the three pre-requisites (money we owe, Irish border and the status of UK-based EU citizens) without tearing themselves apart.
I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing happened in the last 16 months to suggest that we are anywhere near sorting those things out. And even if we did so tomorrow, we only have 6-8 months left to sort out all the very complex details about what our future relationship with the EU will be.
Finally, there was a massive problem raised last week, which has had virtually no news coverage. Both May and Corbyn say that they want us out of the Single Market, but with tariff-free access to it. But the EU has just signed trade deals with Canada and S Korea, which include the undertaking that the EU will not sign a trade deal with any other non-Single Market country that gives that country a better deal than Canada and S Korea have got. But they haven't got tariff-free access so we can't.
So, at best, any deal we get will involve tariffs on a huge proportion of our imports and exports. Which really WOULD be a major problem.
BFYP
Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.
I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.
I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?
Pleased you had the common sense
Yes huge risks for little return
It should be
No its not as the experts ( not the Far Right ) know.
With risk comes potential - granted it's not being managed well to unleash potential but it's there.
You don't take huge risks from a point of weakness - surely an Accountant would never advise that .
Virtually all our Services are over- stretched because of lack of funding, our national debt has almost reached £ 2 trillion and counting. We have few natural resources and a non- productive industrial Base at its weakest for aeons why would you take risks bfyp ?
Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?
Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP to be used in English papers .
It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.
BFYP
Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.
BFYP
Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.
Someone had to try it once...
Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?
Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP to be used in English papers .
It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.
Of course it was and the source of the money .....Russia ?
BFYP
Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.
Someone had to try it once...
Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?
Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP to be used in English papers .
It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.
Of course it was and the source of the money .....Russia ?
It's not what I've heard. It was more the rich home-grown Brexiteers who don't want their finances scrutinised very much.
While we're talking about Putin bankrolling politicians who want to weaken the UK...Lots of ex politicians have no shame.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41934399
Here's a thorny little problem.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JeanneBartram/status/931940574529249280/photo/1
Or maybe this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RettopNoj/status/919087078469722112/photo/1
Still. Never mind. Boris reckons it's not beyond the wit of man to sort it out, so I'm sure it's all in hand.
Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?
Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP to be used in English papers .
It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth"Fearmongering"
Hey-ho. 16 months ago, there were plenty saying they wouldn't judge the effect of the Brexit vote on the economy because economists were predicting different things.
Well, this isn't a prediction. It's a measurement of what's already happened. The drop in economic growth has already left the country poorer to the tine of £600 per household. On top of that, higher inflation due to the drop in the value of the pound means that the cost of living is higher by £400 per household.
And the predictions of the ones who were right last Summer are that this lower performance will be a long-term problem. And it builds, year on year. If their predictions are right, by 2020 we'll be £3-4000 per household worse off per year. But when you add the effects together over 4 years, it'll mean a sum of maybe £8-10,000 per household that we've lost.
Still, we took back control, eh?
Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?
Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP to be used in English papers .
It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42055523
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth
Hey-ho. 16 months ago, there were plenty saying they wouldn't judge the effect of the Brexit vote on the economy because economists were predicting different things.
Well, this isn't a prediction. It's a measurement of what's already happened. The drop in economic growth has already left the country poorer to the tine of £600 per household. On top of that, higher inflation due to the drop in the value of the pound means that the cost of living is higher by £400 per household.
And the predictions of the ones who were right last Summer are that this lower performance will be a long-term problem. And it builds, year on year. If their predictions are right, by 2020 we'll be £3-4000 per household worse off per year. But when you add the effects together over 4 years, it'll mean a sum of maybe £8-10,000 per household that we've lost.
Still, we took back control, eh?
Ah, but you're forgetting Hoola, the standard way of explaining away what experts say these days is "what the feck do they know anyway?".
How many " lost " £ 350 million a week to the NHS " do you make that too Billy - seems like a lot of lost weeks to me . Where is Filo by the way , perhaps he can explain all this expert opinion away ?
As for me I'm fecked off with the lot of it now .
How many " lost " £ 350 million a week to the NHS " do you make that too Billy - seems like a lot of lost weeks to me . Where is Filo by the way , perhaps he can explain all this expert opinion away ?
As for me I'm fecked off with the lot of it now .
Still here, just sick of reading you bleat about the result of a democratic vote that you don't like. And just to clarify, I am not an expert, have never professed to be. You need to stop calling people because they voted in a different way to you, look at other remain voters in this thread and you'll see that none of them use the same vitriol as you
Steve, why do you keep sarcastically bringing up the point that we won the war on our own?Idler,
Anybody with any sense knows how much we needed allies to win the the war. By the same token, had we capitulated in 1940 there would have been nobody to stop Hitler. Russia would have been facing far more German troops and armour even earlier.
Most of the people that i know who voted in favour of brexit told me that the biggest influencing factor in them voting to leave was that "we have to be able to have control of our borders and stop foreigners coming in as they please".
My guess is that they never gave a thought to the financial grief that we are now facing.
Most of the people that i know who voted in favour of brexit told me that the biggest influencing factor in them voting to leave was that "we have to be able to have control of our borders and stop foreigners coming in as they please".
My guess is that they never gave a thought to the financial grief that we are now facing.
What do they think now?
You remember all those scare stories about how companies wouldn't invest in UK because of concerns about Brexit? How the Leave campaign said it was scaremongering and we'd be fine?
This is a list of investment in each country as a % of GDP for 2016.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoMicheII/status/933726759303958528/photo/1
At least we're doing better than Burundi.
IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.
IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.
IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.
I don’t know who these “many people” are mate but I’m not one.
In or out of Europe, I want to see us as a successful, welcoming, open, tolerant country.
I have just never seen anything remotely suggesting that we will be that country outside Europe.
IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.
I don’t know who these “many people” are mate but I’m not one.
In or out of Europe, I want to see us as a successful, welcoming, open, tolerant country.
I have just never seen anything remotely suggesting that we will be that country outside Europe.
Brexiteers,
What I don't get is why you are not in a rage about being misled?
In any other walk of life, folk would be upset about the mis-selling, the £350m for the NHS claim.
Not only are Gove and Johnson NOT in jail for fraud, and conspiracy to undermine the democratic process, but they are rewarded with seats in the Cabinet.
Now if you had bought a consumer item on the basis of a false claim, you would expect your money back. Trading standards would step in and bring the wrong uns to book.
It appears that voters have no recourse to political misinformation, so "fake news" is OK as long as it deals in the deceit of ideas.
That can't be right, can it, Brexiteers?
Brexiteers,
What I don't get is why you are not in a rage about being misled?
In any other walk of life, folk would be upset about the mis-selling, the £350m for the NHS claim.
Not only are Gove and Johnson NOT in jail for fraud, and conspiracy to undermine the democratic process, but they are rewarded with seats in the Cabinet.
Now if you had bought a consumer item on the basis of a false claim, you would expect your money back. Trading standards would step in and bring the wrong uns to book.
It appears that voters have no recourse to political misinformation, so "fake news" is OK as long as it deals in the deceit of ideas.
That can't be right, can it, Brexiteers?
The impression I got at the time of the referendum is that they were happy to have lies spread because it got them the result they wanted and that everybody else should 'get over it'.
IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.
I wonder if the Leave voters realise just how little thought was given to the practical details of things like trade negotiations.
The likes of Johnson and Gove are famously light on attention to detail. They were very good at patronisingly putting down anyone who pointed out that it took over a decade for Switzerland to reach a trade deal with the EU. They did what they always do - encouraged Leave supporters to not think too hard about it and just assume that all would be fine because...we’ll because we’re British and we are special.
I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that I want one of those two Kitsons to become PM. They have created this disaster. They need to be made to own it and be associated with it forever.
Britex everyone's an expert. But no one knows anything.
Long term no
What would it take for brexiters to accept that they were mugged used and abused for political gain by a small number of people that want to take Britain back in time. Still waiting for any good news about brexit, don't be shy, don't hold back.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/vote-leave-dominic-cummings-online-guru-mystery-letter-dark-ads
I voted leave because I saw the EU becoming a far more federal body which wasn't what I wanted. I also resented the threats from politicians and Obama getting involved. It wasn't a matter of being 100% convinced but on balance leave just shaded it. I was on holiday so as usual had a postal vote. The best argument for staying came from my eldest grandson which says a lot for
the remain campaign although they were convinced that they would win easily until the last week or so. I expect the politicians/experts to get us the best deal possible to take us forward, that's maybe too much to ask now. I think that auckley has hit the nail on the head we need to act like adults with the EU and get the best deal for both sides.
Its a shit state of affairs but the best option is the one being taken ; stall stall stall and hope the eu disassembles in the meantime or they offer what we they want
Apart from Boston where (without looking it up) I am sure they had the largest "Leave" vote. They are perceived to be over run there
Wisbech may be another as last time I went there it was hard to hear any English spoken.
Funny thing is the places where people voted Leave probably did best with the funding. Even Doncaster. Just look at the news over the last few months they're more interested in London transport links than the Norths links.Spot on that. Most of the regeneration in Donny has been funded by the EU.
Macho
So. No failings from Corbyn then? Excellent, clear, passionate campaigning from him?
Ffs your embarrassing! I voted remain for me it was to maintain the status quo because I feared for my children's futures. The remain campaign was based on fear? Nothing positive about staying just the catastrophe if we dared to leave. A very bad tactic as they didn't understand that in every city, town, and village the general public thought how much worse can it get?! The leave campaign had the job of convincing people of change (always harder) so did embellish and run a positive campaign thats why we ended up with the result. Remain lost what should have been an easy victory because they were basically out of touch. Just like subsequently with the election campaign. Their more savvy now and this result wouldn't happen again.
We will be ok there wont be u boats in the channel and dig for victory campaigns.
Its a shit state of affairs but the best option is the one being taken ; stall stall stall and hope the eu disassembles in the meantime or they offer what we they want (as we are dressed up in another name)
For every leave exaggeration there was a leader from another nation telling us to stay. You can't pontificate about the state of mindof the leave voters its divisive, elitist and as helpful as 2nd anus.
Analyse,understand and add. Get better not bitter!!.
Was that ever realistic though given that even the Lib Dems, who have been the most committed pro-EU party in the country for decades, only managed to get ~70% of their voters for remain?
The LDs were down to a rump party by 2015-16. In the 2015 election, they had the lowest support that a centre party had received since we’d had decimal coinage. And many of the ones who left them in 2015 were the centre-left types who had mistakenly believed that the LDs were a kind of cuddly Blairite party without the nasty bits. So it’s difficult to compare the 2015 LD supporters with the “recently traditional” view of the party supporters.
By the way, I was wrong about 67% of 2015 Labour voters supporting Remain in 2016.
(http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/LR-by-party.jpg)
It was 63%. If it had been 69%, we’d still be in.
I just think it's hilarious that 4% of UKIP supporters voted Remain.
I mean I know they're not the most intelligent among us but what the f**k was that all about?
I just think it's hilarious that 4% of UKIP supporters voted Remain.Why is it hilarious?
I mean I know they're not the most intelligent among us but what the f**k was that all about?
I just think it's hilarious that 4% of UKIP supporters voted Remain.Why is it hilarious?
I mean I know they're not the most intelligent among us but what the f**k was that all about?
Maybe they listened to debates or read articles and then decided Brexit was not in their best interests.
Brexit will have gone to a vote innParliament by then. He have either scuppered it or supported it. Then he has a real electoral problem.
Glyn
Aye, but given Corbyn’s history, why should the (predominantly anti-Brexit) PLP pay a blind bit of notice to his three line whip?
Davies refuses to hand over documents that spell out the full impact of wrexit despite the parliament voting to release them.
On top of this the totally hypocritical bunch of tory eurosceptics are trying to hold a second vote, it's unbelievable (well not really)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-brexit-impact-papers-release-contempt-parliament-charge-latest-a8080991.html
Davies refuses to hand over documents that spell out the full impact of wrexit despite the parliament voting to release them.
On top of this the totally hypocritical bunch of tory eurosceptics are trying to hold a second vote, it's unbelievable (well not really)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-brexit-impact-papers-release-contempt-parliament-charge-latest-a8080991.html
Well, the hits just keep on coming;
https://is.gd/K9cjhf
It looks more and more like a bloodless coup......I suppose the bleeding will all take place off camera, and down the years.
Given that we do not have a written constitution, the principle that parliament has the last word over the (temporary) executive is crucial.
Disregard the vote of parliament, and you have moved into autocratic mode. So much for the entire basis of governance in the UK.
The costs outlined in the Indy link are for the right to agree terms to continue to trade with the EU. Those terms will be less advantageous than full members enjoy, so we will be paying for the prospect of a poorer deal.
The thought that occurs to me is that the economic appraisel should have been available to inform the vote. All this rot under the floorboards is clearly the reason DD cannot release the redacted papers.
Lets be honest, if it showed a clean bill of health for Leave, then we would all know already. The only reason for holding back is that it there is information that will reflect badly on the government.
This 50 billion. It's like going to buy a car and paying top whack but you've no idea what car you'll get. Could be a 1985 Lada.
Absolute madness.
This 50 billion. It's like going to buy a car and paying top whack but you've no idea what car you'll get. Could be a 1985 Lada.
Absolute madness.
This 50 billion. It's like going to buy a car and paying top whack but you've no idea what car you'll get. Could be a 1985 Lada.
Absolute madness.
This 50 billion. It's like going to buy a car and paying top whack but you've no idea what car you'll get. Could be a 1985 Lada.
Absolute madness.
There is no car! it's an illusion, there never has been a car the car never existed. Wrexit is costing the UK economy 300,000,000 per week, on top of this 50 Billion (50,000,000,000) and then loss of trade, can't wait for the wrexiteers side of the story.
Well, there's another week of £350m that Boris owes us.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42194382
David Davis has reportedly threatened to quit if Damian Green is sacked for having porn on his work computer. What a bizarre hill to die on. Strikes me that Davis is looking for any way to get out of Dodge while saving face. Good luck with that Dave.
Well now there’s been a meeting in Dublin today between Leo Varadkar (Irish PM) and Donald Tusk (EU Brusselsj that has really put a spanner in the works. If Ireland is not happy with the Ireland border arrangements offered by UK as part of the Brexit process, Ireland can veto the negotiations with the full support of the EU. This is a major dilemma for the British because Dublin does not want a return of the hard border between the jurisdictions that was removed following the Good Friday Agreement but it’s hard to see NI leaving the customs union with the rest of the UK without proper border controls in place. This could undo the entire process and lead to an abandonment of the Brexit.
I confess I haven’t read all the many posts on this thread, but one simple question screams out at me.
If those who voted to leave the EU had been told we would face a bill of £50 Billion for leaving, would this have affected their decision?
Surely it would have?
I don’t recall the prospect of an exit bill of this magnitude ever being part of the discussions during the referendum.
You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
David Davis has reportedly threatened to quit if Damian Green is sacked for having porn on his work computer. What a bizarre hill to die on. Strikes me that Davis is looking for any way to get out of Dodge while saving face. Good luck with that Dave.
You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
Like BST , I too cannot see how you have made a reasonable argument for leaving from what you have presented to us as statistical evidence for Brexiting. ?
The number of people required to change their vote in a new referendum is a pretty small %age and I don't think they are bluffing or deluding themselves I don't think the majority of those that voted for Wrexit have read or cared to understand what the vote would really mean and the downward spiral that Britain is now facing.You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
Like BST , I too cannot see how you have made a reasonable argument for leaving from what you have presented to us as statistical evidence for Brexiting. ?
Sorry Hoola & BST, why do you think my post is a reasoned argument for leaving? It's a link to a UGov survey about people's attitudes on Brexit and has no argument from me about leaving in it whatsoever - reasoned or otherwise.
This is the actual poll, again apologies it was August 2017 not last year. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/01/britain-nation-brexit-extremists/
People are saying because of the economic forecasts that those who voted leave are changing their mind or regretting the situation. A more recent UGov poll does show that, but its very small, most people who voted leave would still vote leave however catastrophic the economic consequences. Perhaps they are bluffing or deluding themselves - or a looking forward to a low regulated, tax haven, I don't know, but thats what the polls show.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/there-has-been-shift-against-brexit-public-still-t/
You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
Like BST , I too cannot see how you have made a reasonable argument for leaving from what you have presented to us as statistical evidence for Brexiting. ?
Sorry Hoola & BST, why do you think my post is a reasoned argument for leaving? It's a link to a UGov survey about people's attitudes on Brexit and has no argument from me about leaving in it whatsoever - reasoned or otherwise.
This is the actual poll, again apologies it was August 2017 not last year. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/01/britain-nation-brexit-extremists/
People are saying because of the economic forecasts that those who voted leave are changing their mind or regretting the situation. A more recent UGov poll does show that, but its very small, most people who voted leave would still vote leave however catastrophic the economic consequences. Perhaps they are bluffing or deluding themselves - or a looking forward to a low regulated, tax haven, I don't know, but thats what the polls show.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/there-has-been-shift-against-brexit-public-still-t/
You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
Like BST , I too cannot see how you have made a reasonable argument for leaving from what you have presented to us as statistical evidence for Brexiting. ?
Sorry Hoola & BST, why do you think my post is a reasoned argument for leaving? It's a link to a UGov survey about people's attitudes on Brexit and has no argument from me about leaving in it whatsoever - reasoned or otherwise.
This is the actual poll, again apologies it was August 2017 not last year. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/01/britain-nation-brexit-extremists/
People are saying because of the economic forecasts that those who voted leave are changing their mind or regretting the situation. A more recent UGov poll does show that, but its very small, most people who voted leave would still vote leave however catastrophic the economic consequences. Perhaps they are bluffing or deluding themselves - or a looking forward to a low regulated, tax haven, I don't know, but thats what the polls show.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/there-has-been-shift-against-brexit-public-still-t/
Still can't see how you haven't accounted for the 39% of Leavers who feel the price is not worth paying for the economic collapse or at best slow decline.
Do you seriously think that we would still leave the EU ?
You are deluding yourself chaps. A good percentage of Brexiteers were and still are ideological obsessives with little or no interest in economic well being of the country. A survey last year found that 61% of people who voted leave thought having a significantly worse economy was a price worth paying for Brexit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
Like BST , I too cannot see how you have made a reasonable argument for leaving from what you have presented to us as statistical evidence for Brexiting. ?
Sorry Hoola & BST, why do you think my post is a reasoned argument for leaving? It's a link to a UGov survey about people's attitudes on Brexit and has no argument from me about leaving in it whatsoever - reasoned or otherwise.
This is the actual poll, again apologies it was August 2017 not last year. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/01/britain-nation-brexit-extremists/
People are saying because of the economic forecasts that those who voted leave are changing their mind or regretting the situation. A more recent UGov poll does show that, but its very small, most people who voted leave would still vote leave however catastrophic the economic consequences. Perhaps they are bluffing or deluding themselves - or a looking forward to a low regulated, tax haven, I don't know, but thats what the polls show.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/there-has-been-shift-against-brexit-public-still-t/
Still can't see how you haven't accounted for the 39% of Leavers who feel the price is not worth paying for the economic collapse or at best slow decline.
Do you seriously think that we would still leave the EU ?
When have I ever said we should leave the EU?
TRB
There ISN’T a solution to the Irish Border issue. That’s the point. Davies is dissembling by saying that we need to know what the trade deal looks like before we can know how to deal with the Irish border. That’s Grade A bullshit, hiding the fact that no-one on the British side has a clue what to do.
Here’s the problem.
May has announced (her own decision - nothing in the Referendum or in any Parliamentary vote forced her) that we will leave both the Currency Union and the Single Market.
Since Ireland will stay in both, that means that there has to be customs and trade borders between the UK and Ireland.
But that will cause chaos in movement of goods and people between NI and Rep Ire, which now have strongly integrated economies.
So, you could make a special case of NI. Let it effectively stay inside the CU and SM. Then it could trade freely with Rep Ire. And the Customs and trade border would be between the island of Ireland and the island of Great Britain.
But the DUP won’t wear that because it hints at a slippery slope towards a United Ireland. And the DUP is shoring up this apology of a Govt.
Conclusion? The moment May announced we were leaving the CU and SM, she burned any chance of sorting out the Irish border question. Nothing that could possibly emerge from trade negotiations with the EU can alter the facts above.
An utter, stupid, avoidable mistake made by a Prime Minister who totally misunderstood how weak her position was.
2) Face down the DUP and go for the united Irish market solution. And that is a direct line to para-military action from the Unionists returning with a vengeance.
Glyn
You’re assuming there’s an economic logic to Unionism. At the bottom line, Unionism will always put sovereignty before economics. And so it would be horrific for the Unionists to see an Ireland that was economically unified and separate from GB working successfully. History suggests that the Unionists would take (Carson’s old threat) “all means possible” to thwart that outcome.
Glyn
You’re assuming there’s an economic logic to Unionism. At the bottom line, Unionism will always put sovereignty before economics. And so it would be horrific for the Unionists to see an Ireland that was economically unified and separate from GB working successfully. History suggests that the Unionists would take (Carson’s old threat) “all means possible” to thwart that outcome.
There may be a canny way out of this though: say that there's no way of agreeing a soft border with things as they are. The only way to have a soft border is for NI to be part of the Single Market (there'd still be a hard border with just the Customs Union) or even full memebers of the EU. So, in order for NI to be able to that, threaten the DUP with a referendum in NI. Either (a) things stay as they are and there's a hard border, or (b) NI becomes independent (although with the Queen still Head Of Stare, like Australia etc.) and can join the SM/EU on it's own terms and there's a soft border.
Either the DUP calls the bluff and there's the potential for the first break from the UK being put into the electorate's hands and not theirs; or they start to be more flexible and possibly agree to the hard border being between NI and the rest of the UK.
Then whatever happens it can be spun that the DUP are the villians of the piece and not Westminster.
But that ignores the paramilitary aspect Glyn. That is at least as important as the conventional political fallout.
Both sides have historically seen Northern Ireland as a zero-sum game. If you are winning, we are losing. The genius of the Good Friday Agreement was that it gave just enough to each side to keep an equilibrium. The moment you tip that either way, you have destroyed the balance and given one side the potential to feel that they are losing out.
So if there's a hard border in Ireland, the Republican's will be pissed off and if there's a hard border in the Irish Sea, the Unionists will be pissed off. Either one of those outcomes disturbs the balance of the GFA and runs the risk of the men with guns coming back to argue the case for the side that feels it has lost out.
Glyn
You’re assuming there’s an economic logic to Unionism. At the bottom line, Unionism will always put sovereignty before economics. And so it would be horrific for the Unionists to see an Ireland that was economically unified and separate from GB working successfully. History suggests that the Unionists would take (Carson’s old threat) “all means possible” to thwart that outcome.
There may be a canny way out of this though: say that there's no way of agreeing a soft border with things as they are. The only way to have a soft border is for NI to be part of the Single Market (there'd still be a hard border with just the Customs Union) or even full memebers of the EU. So, in order for NI to be able to that, threaten the DUP with a referendum in NI. Either (a) things stay as they are and there's a hard border, or (b) NI becomes independent (although with the Queen still Head Of Stare, like Australia etc.) and can join the SM/EU on it's own terms and there's a soft border.
Either the DUP calls the bluff and there's the potential for the first break from the UK being put into the electorate's hands and not theirs; or they start to be more flexible and possibly agree to the hard border being between NI and the rest of the UK.
Then whatever happens it can be spun that the DUP are the villians of the piece and not Westminster.
I think Scotland would be wanting whatever NI get in concessions
Win-win for the UK it seems to me.
But that ignores the paramilitary aspect Glyn. That is at least as important as the conventional political fallout.
Both sides have historically seen Northern Ireland as a zero-sum game. If you are winning, we are losing. The genius of the Good Friday Agreement was that it gave just enough to each side to keep an equilibrium. The moment you tip that either way, you have destroyed the balance and given one side the potential to feel that they are losing out.
So if there's a hard border in Ireland, the Republican's will be pissed off and if there's a hard border in the Irish Sea, the Unionists will be pissed off. Either one of those outcomes disturbs the balance of the GFA and runs the risk of the men with guns coming back to argue the case for the side that feels it has lost out.
If the vote is to stay the same, there's nothing for the paramilitary to get annoyed about. If NI vote for independence, it's not the UK's problem any more, it'll be the DUP's assuming they still hold power. And what would the paramilitary hope to expect to get out of the DUP?
It won't be the UK tipping anything one way or the other, it'll be the NI electorate themselves.
Win-win for the UK it seems to me.
Besides, I didn't say have a referendum, I said threaten the DUP with one.
Glyn
But how on earth can this Govt threaten the DUP with anything?
But that ignores the paramilitary aspect Glyn. That is at least as important as the conventional political fallout.
Both sides have historically seen Northern Ireland as a zero-sum game. If you are winning, we are losing. The genius of the Good Friday Agreement was that it gave just enough to each side to keep an equilibrium. The moment you tip that either way, you have destroyed the balance and given one side the potential to feel that they are losing out.
So if there's a hard border in Ireland, the Republican's will be pissed off and if there's a hard border in the Irish Sea, the Unionists will be pissed off. Either one of those outcomes disturbs the balance of the GFA and runs the risk of the men with guns coming back to argue the case for the side that feels it has lost out.
If the vote is to stay the same, there's nothing for the paramilitary to get annoyed about. If NI vote for independence, it's not the UK's problem any more, it'll be the DUP's assuming they still hold power. And what would the paramilitary hope to expect to get out of the DUP?
It won't be the UK tipping anything one way or the other, it'll be the NI electorate themselves.
Win-win for the UK it seems to me.
Besides, I didn't say have a referendum, I said threaten the DUP with one.
But there won't be a referendum on independence. Nobody (well, apart from a tiny minority of Ulster nationalists, which is an odd concept) wants Northern Irish independence. Some want Irish unification, the majority (for now anyway) want to remain part of the Union.
Which then leads right back to the paramilitaries.
Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that the UK had made a concession on the Irish border.
The BBC's political editor said Mr Lamberts had said the UK was prepared to accept that Northern Ireland may remain in the EU's customs union and single market in all but name. But, she stressed, the BBC has not seen the draft document nor has it been signed off.
“We note the speculation emanating from the European Union exit talks regarding the Republic of Ireland and United Kingdom border.
"We have been very clear. Northern Ireland must leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the United Kingdom.
"We will not accept any form of regulatory divergence which separates Northern Ireland economically or politically from the rest of the United Kingdom."
My gut feeling is that the UK will remain in the SM and CU. I predict an awful row about it, but I now think that is where we will end up.
Is there any possibility that if the UK remains in the customs union and single market it might actually prosper more out of the EU than in it?
It seems rumours of a deal have been exaggerated. Nothing agreed today. It will be interesting to hear where we go now.
I would be surprised if they hadn't run it past the DUP. Then again, nothing would surprise me.
I think it is an attempt to kick the can down the road. Neither side wants to be seen to be walking away from the Brexit talks, and unless they find some way of moving forward there would be nothing to talk about in January.
My gut feeling is that the UK will remain in the SM and CU. I predict an awful row about it, but I now think that is where we will end up.
Is there any possibility that if the UK remains in the customs union and single market it might actually prosper more out of the EU than in it?
The biggest bollock dropped is triggering article 50 without having a clear and detailed plan worked out
I would be surprised if they hadn't run it past the DUP. Then again, nothing would surprise me.
I think it is an attempt to kick the can down the road. Neither side wants to be seen to be walking away from the Brexit talks, and unless they find some way of moving forward there would be nothing to talk about in January.
My gut feeling is that the UK will remain in the SM and CU. I predict an awful row about it, but I now think that is where we will end up.
TRB. In any sane world we would.
1) It solves the Irish problem at a stroke.
2) It removes the worst of the immediate economic downsides.
3) There is a majority in the country and in Parliament for that outcome.
The one and only reason that we're even in the current situation is that May chose to interpret "Brexit means Brexit" in that way, to appease her right wing.
I would be surprised if they hadn't run it past the DUP. Then again, nothing would surprise me.
I think it is an attempt to kick the can down the road. Neither side wants to be seen to be walking away from the Brexit talks, and unless they find some way of moving forward there would be nothing to talk about in January.
My gut feeling is that the UK will remain in the SM and CU. I predict an awful row about it, but I now think that is where we will end up.
TRB. In any sane world we would.
1) It solves the Irish problem at a stroke.
2) It removes the worst of the immediate economic downsides.
3) There is a majority in the country and in Parliament for that outcome.
The one and only reason that we're even in the current situation is that May chose to interpret "Brexit means Brexit" in that way, to appease her right wing.
My view is that May won't be around as PM a lot longer. In fact, I'm not sure this Government will survive for more than six months. If the "deal" they discussed in Brussels today pisses off the DUP, then it could be less than six months.
I would be surprised if they hadn't run it past the DUP. Then again, nothing would surprise me.
I think it is an attempt to kick the can down the road. Neither side wants to be seen to be walking away from the Brexit talks, and unless they find some way of moving forward there would be nothing to talk about in January.
My gut feeling is that the UK will remain in the SM and CU. I predict an awful row about it, but I now think that is where we will end up.
TRB. In any sane world we would.
1) It solves the Irish problem at a stroke.
2) It removes the worst of the immediate economic downsides.
3) There is a majority in the country and in Parliament for that outcome.
The one and only reason that we're even in the current situation is that May chose to interpret "Brexit means Brexit" in that way, to appease her right wing.
My view is that May won't be around as PM a lot longer. In fact, I'm not sure this Government will survive for more than six months. If the "deal" they discussed in Brussels today pisses off the DUP, then it could be less than six months.
Have the DUP got all of their bribe - sorry, monetary incentive to support the government - money yet?
TRB
I suspect future historians will ponder greatly over the question “did May think?”
I’m wondering if her neurons are conversing with each other about anything.
"they'd have to go along with whatever the public votes for, and no politician really trusts the electorate to do what they want them to"
David Cameron anyone?
I wasn't commenting on his reasons for calling the referendum, there's no doubt as to his reasons. Cameron made one big stupid assumption of the outcome and called the referendum, which, if that wasn't 'trusting' the electorate, what on earth was it?
But that ignores the paramilitary aspect Glyn. That is at least as important as the conventional political fallout.
Both sides have historically seen Northern Ireland as a zero-sum game. If you are winning, we are losing. The genius of the Good Friday Agreement was that it gave just enough to each side to keep an equilibrium. The moment you tip that either way, you have destroyed the balance and given one side the potential to feel that they are losing out.
So if there's a hard border in Ireland, the Republican's will be pissed off and if there's a hard border in the Irish Sea, the Unionists will be pissed off. Either one of those outcomes disturbs the balance of the GFA and runs the risk of the men with guns coming back to argue the case for the side that feels it has lost out.
If the vote is to stay the same, there's nothing for the paramilitary to get annoyed about. If NI vote for independence, it's not the UK's problem any more, it'll be the DUP's assuming they still hold power. And what would the paramilitary hope to expect to get out of the DUP?
It won't be the UK tipping anything one way or the other, it'll be the NI electorate themselves.
Win-win for the UK it seems to me.
Besides, I didn't say have a referendum, I said threaten the DUP with one.
The biggest bollock dropped is triggering article 50 without having a clear and detailed plan worked out
I love this line from Downing St which is supposed to be positive.
“It’s not ONLY the Irish border that prevented agreement.”
Whoopee f**king doo. That’s alright then. I was worried that it was ONLY the fact that the Govt hasn’t got a clue what to do about Ireland that was holding stuff up. But we’ve got no f**king idea what to do about EU citizens as well. What a relief!
There's one thing that seems to have been overlooked....how will today's omnishambles have been viewed by the EU and their negotiators?
DD
Go on then. I’ll bite. What cards does the Govt have to play?
Here's an interesting piece of news that appears to have got lost among the other interesting news that has come out today.
Not only didn't she have the backing of the DUP but May didn't actually have the backing of the cabinet to put that deal to the EU. What will the repercussions for that be?
https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1958015007856568
DD
Go on then. I’ll bite. What cards does the Govt have to play?
Ace High
The DUP had a pair of 2's
There's one thing that seems to have been overlooked....how will today's omnishambles have been viewed by the EU and their negotiators?
I don't think they will have been overly surprised given what's gone before.
Hoola.
To be fair, I don’t think anyone on the EU side is smiling. Nothing good is going to come out of this for anyone.
But they are absolutely right to stick to the demand that the three pre-requisites are dealt with. The EU didn’t call or lose this vote. We did it and we have to face up to the consequences, not simply ignore them and then say “Can we have a REALLY good deal to make us well off please.”
There's one thing that seems to have been overlooked....how will today's omnishambles have been viewed by the EU and their negotiators?
I don't think they will have been overly surprised given what's gone before.
Surely they'll be asking themselves why they're even bothering to waste their time negotiating with the UK Government team about the Irish border when it looks from this that it's the DUP making the decisions, not Teresa May's people.
My guess is we will ALL end up in the CU with regulatory divergenceStill living in blind hope that we'll just say f**k it and give it up as a bad job.
My guess is we will ALL end up in the CU with regulatory divergenceStill living in blind hope that we'll just say f**k it and give it up as a bad job.
And dead on cue...
https://mobile.twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/937972391577341952
Presumably "regulatory alignment" is the current code phrase for "we stay in the SM and CU."
Surely your country would not be daft enough to pay the €50 billion if there is no deal? I am referring to the distinct possibility that everything will be renegotiated now.
Unless Mrs May has an ace up her sleeve the EU May insist you have another referendum. You might face another GE or a change of Tory leadership at the very least.
Well BST no one really knows why €50bilion or any other figure or indeed a rebate for that matter because Brussels have not ever shown any proper accounts. It appears, in the absence of any public information from either side, that this would certainly be a matter of negotiation. It seemed Mrs May and her team just pulled that amount from her hat before any proper talks had even started.
The British public and indeed the rest of Europe must be getting very annoyed at this procrastination and delay after their vote to was leave the EU.
Glyn
As far as I know no-one on either side has spelled out exactly what our obligations are- an itemised bill, if you like. Until you get that (if ever) the "Divorce Bill" is a matter for negotiations.
I suspect if we get into the "No Deal" scenario that the money the UK pays will be considerably less than £50bn. Although we are a long way from that.
The British public and indeed the rest of Europe must be getting very annoyed at this procrastination and delay after their vote to was leave the EU.
Glyn
As far as I know no-one on either side has spelled out exactly what our obligations are- an itemised bill, if you like. Until you get that (if ever) the "Divorce Bill" is a matter for negotiations.
I suspect if we get into the "No Deal" scenario that the money the UK pays will be considerably less than £50bn. Although we are a long way from that.
The EU has done an itemised bill. We're trying to haggle with them, that's what the 'negotiations' amount to.
Glyn
As far as I know no-one on either side has spelled out exactly what our obligations are- an itemised bill, if you like. Until you get that (if ever) the "Divorce Bill" is a matter for negotiations.
I suspect if we get into the "No Deal" scenario that the money the UK pays will be considerably less than £50bn. Although we are a long way from that.
When are people going to realise that if we try and walk away without coughing up what we're contracted to, then the list of countries that will be 'lining up to have a trade deal' with a country that unilaterally breaks deals at the drop of a hat is going to be very short.
My guess is we will ALL end up in the CU with regulatory divergenceStill living in blind hope that we'll just say f**k it and give it up as a bad job.
My guess is we will ALL end up in the CU with regulatory divergenceStill living in blind hope that we'll just say f**k it and give it up as a bad job.
You too as well Red J - great to see you have come round to the idea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854
This is quite simply beyond belief.
We’re more than half way through the most important national negotiation since WWII and the Govt hasn’t conducted an assessment of the consequences of different outcomes?
How in God’s name do you negotiate if you don’t know the possible outcomes?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854
This is quite simply beyond belief.
We’re more than half way through the most important national negotiation since WWII and the Govt hasn’t conducted an assessment of the consequences of different outcomes?
How in God’s name do you negotiate if you don’t know the possible outcomes?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854
This is quite simply beyond belief.
We’re more than half way through the most important national negotiation since WWII and the Govt hasn’t conducted an assessment of the consequences of different outcomes?
How in God’s name do you negotiate if you don’t know the possible outcomes?
Even more pertinent as far as I'm concerned is why didn't he say this in the first place when Parliament asked for the data, and why has it then had to be dragged out of him in Committee.
1) Davis is telling the truth - they haven't had the assessments done because they don't want to hear what they would say.[1]
2) Davis is lying. They HAVE had the assessments done and they don't want YOU to know what they say.
All comedy aside, a serious question, why are we putting up with this shit?
My guess is we will ALL end up in the CU with regulatory divergenceStill living in blind hope that we'll just say f**k it and give it up as a bad job.
You too as well Red J - great to see you have come round to the idea.
I've always been against the entire thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854
This is quite simply beyond belief.
We’re more than half way through the most important national negotiation since WWII and the Govt hasn’t conducted an assessment of the consequences of different outcomes?
How in God’s name do you negotiate if you don’t know the possible outcomes?
However Sydney this begs the question where is the Opposition in all this .....seemingly in as much disarray.
Does the population of this country care anymore about their future declining living standards, their jobs or even their ability to travel and work freely ?
Why are the opponents NOT getting together and making their voices heard ? Why are they not marching on the capital as they would in every other country given the decisions taken on their behalf ?
Where the feck is Momentum and the Labour movement in all this ? They boast of a young and politically aware group but even they aren't stirring !
Wtf is wrong with our people ...........?
And just when Brexit appears to be in increasing difficult, along comes a Eurocrat to give it a helping hand.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinSchulz/status/938748811375271936?p=v
No UK Government could ratify a constitution for a "United States of Europe." It would be electoral suicide. So in effect we'd be expelled from the club. Not that I think we'd be on our own.
And just when Brexit appears to be in increasing difficult, along comes a Eurocrat to give it a helping hand.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinSchulz/status/938748811375271936?p=v
No UK Government could ratify a constitution for a "United States of Europe." It would be electoral suicide. So in effect we'd be expelled from the club. Not that I think we'd be on our own.
He's a FORMER President of the EU and is pressing ( in his dreams ) to be the leader in Germany. I can see no reason at all why his words would be " meat and drink for Brexiters " . A ' United States of Europe ' is certainly not the dream of most EU citizens - like I said he is to be ignored and treated as a fool.
He's a FORMER President of the EU and is pressing ( in his dreams ) to be the leader in Germany. I can see no reason at all why his words would be " meat and drink for Brexiters " . A ' United States of Europe ' is certainly not the dream of most EU citizens - like I said he is to be ignored and treated as a fool.
I'd agree it isn't a dream of most citizens. But it is of most Eurocrats. And the history of the EU over the last quarter century has been a concentration of power in the centre. Had anything happened to reverse that trend, we may not have ended where we are now.
I see Sturgeon has piped up demanding the same for Scotland, and claiming if they left the UK there's no way we could tell them there'd be no hard border, totally ignoring the historical context of the Irish problem. God I hate that woman. Wilfully ignorant of anything that doesn't suit her sole cause.
I see Sturgeon has piped up demanding the same for Scotland, and claiming if they left the UK there's no way we could tell them there'd be no hard border, totally ignoring the historical context of the Irish problem. God I hate that woman. Wilfully ignorant of anything that doesn't suit her sole cause.
I see Sturgeon has piped up demanding the same for Scotland, and claiming if they left the UK there's no way we could tell them there'd be no hard border, totally ignoring the historical context of the Irish problem. God I hate that woman. Wilfully ignorant of anything that doesn't suit her sole cause.
Someone should tell her that the Independence Referendum voted to stay as part of the UK . Tell her and the others "its democracy get over it" .
That's what the people who voted to leave the EU keep telling those who voted to remain "get over it its democracy" However the ones pushing for the EU Referendum in the first place kept going going going as indeed will the SNP till they get the result that they desire
This could very well be the first step along the road to a united Ireland.
TRB
Very simple why the Tory Brexiters haven’t kicked up a stink.
There is no alternative.
They have postured about being prepared to go for a no deal Brexit, but they know like anyone who has looked at the issue knows, that would be an economic catastrophe.
And they know that if they reject this act of can-kicking, the EU cannot move on to trade negotiations. So we’d be heading for a no deal Brexit.
Their bluff has been called. Plain and simple, and actually, well done to May for making a right call on that aspect.
But the problem is, May is only deferring the moment of crisis for the Tory party. The Brexiters are holding their tongues for now, but eventually they will let rip.
My take?
We WILL be staying in the CU and SM because there is patently no alternative. Whether that’s staying in officially or tying ourselves so tightly to it that we have no room for independent action really makes no odds.
Accept that and everything becomes relatively manageable (at least the least-awful outcomes become possible). But doing that will mean that the Brexiters will shout “Betrayal” (once the deal is done) and the whole f**king mess will continue for another generation.
Nah IDM
Brexit means Brexit.
https://mobile.twitter.com/krishgm/status/939052269093388288
Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome
..............................................................
The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,
RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,
DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts
Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?
What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?
Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome
..............................................................
The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,
RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,
DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts
Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?
What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?
UK was not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome
The post mentioned 1957
The post mentioned 1957
So what? That's when it was first written. We signed it in 1972. Are you saying that because we didn't sign it in 1957 it means we didn't agree with everything that's in it that Hoola quoted when we did sign it? Perhaps we signed it with our fingers crossed behind our back!
The post mentioned 1957
So what? That's when it was first written. We signed it in 1972. Are you saying that because we didn't sign it in 1957 it means we didn't agree with everything that's in it that Hoola quoted when we did sign it? Perhaps we signed it with our fingers crossed behind our back!
Perhaps we did, but theres no need to be clever about it, which is symptomatic of many of your condescending posts. I was pointing out that in 1957 we were not a signatory of it, in fact we were n't allowed to join until De Gaulle died, they did n't want us to join and now they don't want us to leave
The facts are, the UK never did and never have signed the Treaty of Rome.
In 1972 the UK signed the Treaty of Accesion
The post mentioned 1957
So what? That's when it was first written. We signed it in 1972. Are you saying that because we didn't sign it in 1957 it means we didn't agree with everything that's in it that Hoola quoted when we did sign it? Perhaps we signed it with our fingers crossed behind our back!
Perhaps we did, but theres no need to be clever about it, which is symptomatic of many of your condescending posts. I was pointing out that in 1957 we were not a signatory of it, in fact we were n't allowed to join until De Gaulle died, they did n't want us to join and now they don't want us to leave
The facts are, the UK never did and never have signed the Treaty of Rome.
In 1972 the UK signed the Treaty of Accesion
So Parliament's got it's facts wrong has it?
http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/tradeindustry/importexport/overview/europe/
As I said, you can't join the EU without signing the Treaty Of Rome.
And you never said anything about 1957, you flatly stated the UK were not a signatory of the Treaty Of Rome.
Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome
..............................................................
The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,
RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,
DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts
Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?
What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?
UK was not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome
Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome
..............................................................
The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,
RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,
DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts
Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?
What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?
UK was not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome
Are you serious ? We accepted All the tenets of the Treaty of Rome on Accession - failure to do so would have meant we could never have turned our country around on the back of the EU .
Thought you were unnecessarily harsh on GW when you clearly knew what I meant and what we stand to lose.
The ambitions of the T of R have largely been obtained haven't they ? I drive round Donny and think " that was built with allocated EU money "", " that's on going " etc. Much of that round our County would NEVER have been allocated Central government funding .
See point 5 above .
Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome
..............................................................
The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,
RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,
DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts
Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?
What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?
UK was not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome
Are you serious ? We accepted All the tenets of the Treaty of Rome on Accession - failure to do so would have meant we could never have turned our country around on the back of the EU .
Thought you were unnecessarily harsh on GW when you clearly knew what I meant and what we stand to lose.
The ambitions of the T of R have largely been obtained haven't they ? I drive round Donny and think " that was built with allocated EU money "", " that's on going " etc. Much of that round our County would NEVER have been allocated Central government funding .
See point 5 above .
Harsh?
He said in his demeaning manner of posting that we had signed the Treaty of Rome, when we clearly have n't
Love that article BST. Just a shame that its inescapable logic to the collapse of Brexit excludes one important factor - the combination of incompetence, personal agendas and egoes of some politicians who we have already seen put their own short term futures above the country's long term future. :headbang:
They say it the sign of a good friend that they stand by you when you’re in trouble. What does that say about Ireland then?
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-has-just-saved-the-uk-from-the-madness-of-a-hard-brexit-1.3320096?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true
And where is the journalism in THIS country that is informing the population of the reality of these momentous decisions?
Love that article BST. Just a shame that its inescapable logic to the collapse of Brexit excludes one important factor - the combination of incompetence, personal agendas and egoes of some politicians who we have already seen put their own short term futures above the country's long term future. :headbang:
Exhibit Number 1:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42298971
If I was the EU I'd refuse to carry on negotiating with this buffoon after this latest spout of BS of trying to tie Brexit terms to a trade deal that has nothing to do with Brexit, especially as - unlike John Profumo - he hasn't got the honour or integrity to resign after being caught lying to Parliament.
An interesting report that escaped out with very little notice last week. People must have been busy with something else.
People are more pessimistic about Brexit and the governments' handling of negotiations, yet they still want it to happen as control of immigration is more important to them than trade and economic consequences.
http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2017/december/voters-more-pessimistic-about-the-outcome-of-brexit,-but-have-not-changed-their-minds-about-what-brexit-should-mean/
Nice piece on it in the Guardian which is summed up by 'what happens when people realise they have been conned'.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/10/brexit-mirage-brussels-talks-theresa-may
This has to be the worst bunch of Parliamentarians of my lifetime - they are pathetic!
This has to be the worst bunch of Parliamentarians of my lifetime - they are pathetic!
I think you are right. There have been bad Government before and when the Tories got routed and Tony Blair and Labour got in the Tories looked like they would never regain power for years
However their "crime" was looking old and out of touch - a totally different matter to the idiots we have at the moment (on both sides). They seem devoid of any morals whatsoever and have brought a new "art" to not answering any question that might prove tricky for them
Yes hound but the banding about of different statistics to somehow prove that more is being spent on this or that than 2010 has become ridiculous. There should be a body to dispute and hold those to account that blatantly and continuously lie a statistical watchdog if you like.
Yes hound but the banding about of different statistics to somehow prove that more is being spent on this or that than 2010 has become ridiculous. There should be a body to dispute and hold those to account that blatantly and continuously lie a statistical watchdog if you like.
Of course I know that hound I'm not naive but who gives a feck if xyz % more is being spent on say the NHS than was spent in 2010 when the money is STILL insufficient . Tit for tat 2 Party politics is killing this country and that needs sorting out if we are to proceed as a modern democracy. Money is forever being wasted simply reversing the way the " other " lot did things .......We don't move on . No wonder we are getting left behind compared to many other leading countries in the areas where key indicators can be compared.
Hoola, come on mate, we all know that this is what all politicians do all the time.
I watched the debate today , all the supposed rebel Tories seemed to be fully behind this nonsense . The Soubrys, Morgan's ect. all there patting her on the back .
Corbyn missed a real trick today even Hilary Benn forgot to mention the missing impact assessments . It was poor from Labour at what was or should have been sitting targets .
Little or nothing was achieved by any of the Opposition Parties except the SNP 's ian Blackford who at least makes Treeza work at it .
This has to be the worst bunch of Parliamentarians of my lifetime - they are pathetic!
I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.
As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?
Yes hound but the banding about of different statistics to somehow prove that more is being spent on this or that than 2010 has become ridiculous. There should be a body to dispute and hold those to account that blatantly and continuously lie a statistical watchdog if you like.
I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.
As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?
A majority government deliberately making itself into a minority government because it's own MPs weren't willing to follow their own leader smacks of a different level of infighting though.
There is a huge imbalance between young and old in Parliament . It needs addressing fast as decisions can't always be made by the old for the young- there is a disconnect and a misunderstanding of youth cultures, needs etc.
Personally it's time that we limited the years spent in Parliament by individuals ......i.e. 30/40 + years is far too long to ' nurse ' the politics of yesteryear and impede the policies required for the ever-evolving needs of the here and now and of course plan for the future.
Yes by all means learn from yesterday but to still live there is a crime in politics and that has brought us into this mess. A group of 60 + year old men have been nursing an ideology that simply held us back in Europe . Rather than shape it they continuously fought against it .
The rest will be the future history written about the downfall of the UK brought about by these old , grey men in suits. Those who who fo years plotted and eventually destroyed the futures of generations to come .
I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.
As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?
A majority government deliberately making itself into a minority government because it's own MPs weren't willing to follow their own leader smacks of a different level of infighting though.
Not sure what you mean. The Tories lost their majority because May miscalculated and then fought a wretched campaign.
I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.
As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?
A majority government deliberately making itself into a minority government because it's own MPs weren't willing to follow their own leader smacks of a different level of infighting though.
Not sure what you mean. The Tories lost their majority because May miscalculated and then fought a wretched campaign.
I was replying to Donnywolf, who was talking about the Major government, as was I.
I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.
As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?
It has often been said over the years that we follow trends set in the USA. I worry that the Trump new normality of saying what you like and never mind if it is true or not, combined with calling anything critical 'fake news' is gaining a foothold over here.
The Point: This is the new reality in our politics, a reality ushered in by Trump's 2016 victory. Facts are fungible -- and subject to the partisan lens through which you see the world. No matter which lens that is, a world without agreed-upon facts should terrify you.
Yeah but who reads those web sites?The ABC is the Australian national broadcaster and has similar reach and influence across Australia as does the BBC across Britain, it would be an effective tool to counter mis-claims and would have been a great tool to counter rubbish such as the NHS will get 350 million pounds/wk with Brexit.
And in the meantime, THIS is where we’re heading
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/12/politics/partisanship-alabama/index.html
Final paragraph:QuoteThe Point: This is the new reality in our politics, a reality ushered in by Trump's 2016 victory. Facts are fungible -- and subject to the partisan lens through which you see the world. No matter which lens that is, a world without agreed-upon facts should terrify you.
There is a huge imbalance between young and old in Parliament . It needs addressing fast as decisions can't always be made by the old for the young- there is a disconnect and a misunderstanding of youth cultures, needs etc.
Personally it's time that we limited the years spent in Parliament by individuals ......i.e. 30/40 + years is far too long to ' nurse ' the politics of yesteryear and impede the policies required for the ever-evolving needs of the here and now and of course plan for the future.
Yes by all means learn from yesterday but to still live there is a crime in politics and that has brought us into this mess. A group of 60 + year old men have been nursing an ideology that simply held us back in Europe . Rather than shape it they continuously fought against it .
The rest will be the future history written about the downfall of the UK brought about by these old , grey men in suits. Those who who fo years plotted and eventually destroyed the futures of generations to come .
Thats why I hope ultimately that PR will be realised to be the way to go electorally
I used to laugh at the Libs and others weeping because they wanted PR - and I used to think "hah that's cos you cant win - bad losers"
However I can say when I became more aware I could see exactly what they want(ed) and they could count on my vote if anyone has the b***s to call it.
More people especially the younger voters may actually vote in greater numbers rather than thinking (for example) that the Tories will win the Constituency in which they are to vote by 10,000 so there is no point voting.
They could in future vote for the Green Party or Lib Dems and really affect the outcomes of Elections and ultimately the Country they get to live in
Aye but this pollster had Remain to win by 7 points and the Tories to win the last election too.
Ah. Laziness on my part, I'd just read that 'fact' in a reply to a tweet with that link in this morning.
What the hell more does anyone need to know about Wrexit to know that it is going to be very very bad for the majority of British people and mainly those in areas of low economic growth and low socioeconomic circumstances.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
Maybe they don't Hoola, but if they have any humanity thet should care about the circumstances of others.What the hell more does anyone need to know about Wrexit to know that it is going to be very very bad for the majority of British people and mainly those in areas of low economic growth and low socioeconomic circumstances.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
Leavers basically don't care even if their own jobs are on the line .....which it is .
Maybe they don't Hoola, but if they have any humanity thet should care about the circumstances of others.What the hell more does anyone need to know about Wrexit to know that it is going to be very very bad for the majority of British people and mainly those in areas of low economic growth and low socioeconomic circumstances.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
Leavers basically don't care even if their own jobs are on the line .....which it is .
Well this has absolutely be the final straw:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/uk-wine-prices-rise-brexit-latest-updates-drinknig-alcohol-eu-withdrawal-a8122216.html
I don't know of any leavers that share these views, so are the leavers I know not typical leavers or is the poll not a true reflection?Maybe they don't Hoola, but if they have any humanity thet should care about the circumstances of others.What the hell more does anyone need to know about Wrexit to know that it is going to be very very bad for the majority of British people and mainly those in areas of low economic growth and low socioeconomic circumstances.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
Leavers basically don't care even if their own jobs are on the line .....which it is .
Shall we remind ourselves of this survey. 61% of Leave voters dont care if Brexit leads to serious economic damage and 50% of Leave voters aged over 65 are willing to see a family member loose their job for Brexit to go ahead.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-leave-voters-uk-economy-damage-yougov-older-pensioners-losing-jobs-income-taxes-a7870871.html
Not sure Idler, to me they are pretty repugnant views.I don't know of any leavers that share these views, so are the leavers I know not typical leavers or is the poll not a true reflection?Maybe they don't Hoola, but if they have any humanity thet should care about the circumstances of others.What the hell more does anyone need to know about Wrexit to know that it is going to be very very bad for the majority of British people and mainly those in areas of low economic growth and low socioeconomic circumstances.Not sure I.dler, to me they are pretty repugnant views.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
Leavers basically don't care even if their own jobs are on the line .....which it is .
Shall we remind ourselves of this survey. 61% of Leave voters dont care if Brexit leads to serious economic damage and 50% of Leave voters aged over 65 are willing to see a family member loose their job for Brexit to go ahead.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-leave-voters-uk-economy-damage-yougov-older-pensioners-losing-jobs-income-taxes-a7870871.html
Not sure Idler, to me they are pretty repugnant views.I don't know of any leavers that share these views, so are the leavers I know not typical leavers or is the poll not a true reflection?Maybe they don't Hoola, but if they have any humanity thet should care about the circumstances of others.What the hell more does anyone need to know about Wrexit to know that it is going to be very very bad for the majority of British people and mainly those in areas of low economic growth and low socioeconomic circumstances.Not sure I.dler, to me they are pretty repugnant views.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
Leavers basically don't care even if their own jobs are on the line .....which it is .
Shall we remind ourselves of this survey. 61% of Leave voters dont care if Brexit leads to serious economic damage and 50% of Leave voters aged over 65 are willing to see a family member loose their job for Brexit to go ahead.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-leave-voters-uk-economy-damage-yougov-older-pensioners-losing-jobs-income-taxes-a7870871.html
Was the survey carried out in a fair cross section of remain/leave areas or concentrated on staunch leave areas?Not sure Idler, to me they are pretty repugnant views.I don't know of any leavers that share these views, so are the leavers I know not typical leavers or is the poll not a true reflection?Maybe they don't Hoola, but if they have any humanity thet should care about the circumstances of others.What the hell more does anyone need to know about Wrexit to know that it is going to be very very bad for the majority of British people and mainly those in areas of low economic growth and low socioeconomic circumstances.Not sure I.dler, to me they are pretty repugnant views.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
Leavers basically don't care even if their own jobs are on the line .....which it is .
Shall we remind ourselves of this survey. 61% of Leave voters dont care if Brexit leads to serious economic damage and 50% of Leave voters aged over 65 are willing to see a family member loose their job for Brexit to go ahead.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-leave-voters-uk-economy-damage-yougov-older-pensioners-losing-jobs-income-taxes-a7870871.html
I agree Billy but voting remain doesn't mean you can't also be one or the other. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.
I go on holiday and risk missing out on a vote. At Brexit I was in Rhodes so had already registered my postal vote. I spent a lot of time deliberating and by the time of the voting date felt actually closer to Europe than possibly before. The shootings in Paris and then the international between England and France at Wembley made me feel proud that we were a united front against terrorism and an affinity with the French nation. The other side of this was the arrogance of Cameron, Osborne and Junkers. Their vision of the EU didn't match mine and I couldn't see them listening to any other views.
I agree Billy but voting remain doesn't mean you can't also be one or the other. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.
I go on holiday and risk missing out on a vote. At Brexit I was in Rhodes so had already registered my postal vote. I spent a lot of time deliberating and by the time of the voting date felt actually closer to Europe than possibly before. The shootings in Paris and then the international between England and France at Wembley made me feel proud that we were a united front against terrorism and an affinity with the French nation. The other side of this was the arrogance of Cameron, Osborne and Junkers. Their vision of the EU didn't match mine and I couldn't see them listening to any other views.
Have you regretted your vote to leave since idler based on those former strong reasons to be a Europhile and those latter
feelings which influenced your vote i.e. the 3 knobheads you mentioned ; who ironically enough will ALL be finished in politics within 5 years ?
Brexit will adversely affect us for decades long after these 3 are dead, buried and largely forgotten.
I agree Billy but voting remain doesn't mean you can't also be one or the other. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.
I go on holiday and risk missing out on a vote. At Brexit I was in Rhodes so had already registered my postal vote. I spent a lot of time deliberating and by the time of the voting date felt actually closer to Europe than possibly before. The shootings in Paris and then the international between England and France at Wembley made me feel proud that we were a united front against terrorism and an affinity with the French nation. The other side of this was the arrogance of Cameron, Osborne and Junkers. Their vision of the EU didn't match mine and I couldn't see them listening to any other views.
Have you regretted your vote to leave since idler based on those former strong reasons to be a Europhile and those latter
feelings which influenced your vote i.e. the 3 knobheads you mentioned ; who ironically enough will ALL be finished in politics within 5 years ?
Brexit will adversely affect us for decades long after these 3 are dead, buried and largely forgotten.
Good question Hoola, in fact it would be good to hear the views of anyone that has changed their mind since the vote, either way.
I reluctantly voted leave because I didn't like the way that the EU was going. Maybe the UK leaving might change the EU to something more like my idea of what it should be. I didn't expect the omnishambles that it has become involving politicians of all parties. When I cast my postal vote it looked like a majority to remain but enough leavers to maybe influence MEPs somewhat.I agree Billy but voting remain doesn't mean you can't also be one or the other. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.
I go on holiday and risk missing out on a vote. At Brexit I was in Rhodes so had already registered my postal vote. I spent a lot of time deliberating and by the time of the voting date felt actually closer to Europe than possibly before. The shootings in Paris and then the international between England and France at Wembley made me feel proud that we were a united front against terrorism and an affinity with the French nation. The other side of this was the arrogance of Cameron, Osborne and Junkers. Their vision of the EU didn't match mine and I couldn't see them listening to any other views.
Have you regretted your vote to leave since idler based on those former strong reasons to be a Europhile and those latter feelings which influenced your vote i.e. the 3 knobheads you mentioned ; who ironically enough will ALL be finished in politics within 5 years ?
Brexit will adversely affect us for decades long after these 3 are dead, buried and largely forgotten.
Is there a charity to help knackered old MPs who have lost their marbles?
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2017/12/23/little-red-white-and-blue-riding-hood-a-topical-christmas-story/
f**k me sideways...
Dear God Almighty.Oh I don't know. It could lead to an up to date version of Dad's Army.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42527750
I thought we were supposed to saving millions from leaving the EU so that we could fund things like this properly?
Dear God Almighty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42527750
I thought we were supposed to saving millions from leaving the EU so that we could fund things like this properly?
Dear God Almighty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42527750
I thought we were supposed to saving millions from leaving the EU so that we could fund things like this properly?
It's getting beyond ridiculous now .
I think I may have spotted why the EU negiators are playing hardball against us trying to implement “The Will of the People”.
https://mobile.twitter.com/bopanc/status/948497516630298625/photo/1
Up until 2013 the UK has been a net contributor to the EU budget in 39 out of its 40 years of membership (the exception being 1975), contributing a total of £401bn in real terms gross, and £134bn net of receipts and the budget rebate. The UK has received an abatement, or rebate, on its budget contribution since 1984, worth £3.2bn in 2012 and £103bn (in real terms) since it was first agreed.
The pound being stronger than the euro has repeatedly led to cheaper imports and difficulty exporting which has contributed to a decline in industry in this country.
I really can't see how the EU has benefited Britain at all; if anybody is in doubt look out of your window and ask yourself what has improved since our membership commenced.
I personally can't wait for us to leave, particularly with progress being managed by a labour government.
Up until 2013 the UK has been a net contributor to the EU budget in 39 out of its 40 years of membership (the exception being 1975), contributing a total of £401bn in real terms gross, and £134bn net of receipts and the budget rebate. The UK has received an abatement, or rebate, on its budget contribution since 1984, worth £3.2bn in 2012 and £103bn (in real terms) since it was first agreed.
The pound being stronger than the euro has repeatedly led to cheaper imports and difficulty exporting which has contributed to a decline in industry in this country.
I really can't see how the EU has benefited Britain at all; if anybody is in doubt look out of your window and ask yourself what has improved since our membership commenced.
I personally can't wait for us to leave, particularly with progress being managed by a labour government.
I looked out of my window but it's a bit too dark to see anything so I thought I'd do a bit of desk based research (aka googling).
Here's how the Yorkshire & Humber region benefitted from EU funding from 2007-2013:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/511951/Beneficary_List-_Feb_2016.pdf
Not to mention the fact that we've had unrestricted to the access to the world's largest trading bloc - how much is that worth to UK in sales/profits that they wouldn't otherwise have made?
I think I may have spotted why the EU negiators are playing hardball against us trying to implement “The Will of the People”.
https://mobile.twitter.com/bopanc/status/948497516630298625/photo/1
This link should put some meat on the bones of payments and returns to the EU. It is difficult to look at figut=res in isolation and say we didn't get this but we paid that. The UK economy is one of the largest therefore you would imagine we pay more, but the gains of being part of the wealthiest trading block in the world has many advantages.Up until 2013 the UK has been a net contributor to the EU budget in 39 out of its 40 years of membership (the exception being 1975), contributing a total of £401bn in real terms gross, and £134bn net of receipts and the budget rebate. The UK has received an abatement, or rebate, on its budget contribution since 1984, worth £3.2bn in 2012 and £103bn (in real terms) since it was first agreed.
The pound being stronger than the euro has repeatedly led to cheaper imports and difficulty exporting which has contributed to a decline in industry in this country.
I really can't see how the EU has benefited Britain at all; if anybody is in doubt look out of your window and ask yourself what has improved since our membership commenced.
I personally can't wait for us to leave, particularly with progress being managed by a labour government.
I looked out of my window but it's a bit too dark to see anything so I thought I'd do a bit of desk based research (aka googling).
Here's how the Yorkshire & Humber region benefitted from EU funding from 2007-2013:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/511951/Beneficary_List-_Feb_2016.pdf
Not to mention the fact that we've had unrestricted to the access to the world's largest trading bloc - how much is that worth to UK in sales/profits that they wouldn't otherwise have made?
The fact it is so dark outside is probably as a result of your local authority spending cuts and lack of street lighting brought on by the amount of national debt we have accrued.
EU funding? we are a net contributor. You wouldn't put £100 in a bandit with the hope of getting £10 out, with no guarantee and consider yourself a winner would you? why would you take that approach with the EU?
Also do you have any idea how much the region has contributed the EU in the same period?
So the net payment works out at about the price of a Starbucks coffee per person per week. And that’s before you consider the benefits that we get from free and unfettered trade with the largest trading bloc in the history of mankind.
Do you think it will make much difference to the average person if we are in or out of the eu? I was thinking back to when labour were in power other day and to be honest it's no different from now, apart from a few quid either way I'm not sure it makes any difference
So the net payment works out at about the price of a Starbucks coffee per person per week. And that’s before you consider the benefits that we get from free and unfettered trade with the largest trading bloc in the history of mankind.
Trading with a strong pound against a weak euro, ie difficult to export and cheaper to import. Again it is one of the reasons we have no manufacturing industry in the U.K. and another reason to be out the eu.
Also:
1) By What measure do you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro?
2) What on earth has this got to do with our membership of the EU?
Also:
1) By What measure do you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro?
2) What on earth has this got to do with our membership of the EU?
Euro has always been cheaper than the pound, which because of the dictated trade arrangements within the EU mean it is cheaper to buy from the EURO zone and import and more difficult to sell British goods.
https://www.pounds2euro.com/Charts
https://group.atradius.com/publications/economic-research-weakening-euros-effect-uk-market-2015.html
i'm really unclear why you have chosen to use a graph which pre-dates the euro zone coming into effect? Unless your relying on Germany's Economic Miracle which related to Eucken's theories and banking structure and has nothing to do with the argument I was making.
I know your obviously pro Europe, and you may have some valid arguments for being so, but this isn't one of them.
This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.
https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/
This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.
https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/
Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.
This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.
https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/
Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.
No, I'm saying they are arguing that. Presumably the decline in those industries you mention have been matched by increases in other areas of manufacturing otherwise the value of manufacturing wouldn't have stayed as stable as it has.
As for cheap foreign imports from the EU, the biggest factor in creating that cheapness has been the Single Market, not the value of the Euro. And the Single Market works both ways, it makes our exported goods cheaper in the EU too.
This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.
https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/
Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.
This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.
https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/
Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.
Rubbish. Those industries were deliberately run down under Margret Thatcher. In part as a deliberate attack to break the power of the unions in heavy industry but also to reorientate the economy away from manufacturing onto one based on financial services in the City of London and the profits from North Sea Oil. They had all gone before the euro was invented.
The car industry in particular has seen a huge benefit from being in the EU. It was the abilty to sell into the EU that led to Nissan and Toyota building factories here.
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167
I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.
In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.
So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167
I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.
In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.
So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.
The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.
The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167
I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.
In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.
So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.
The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.
The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.
Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?
http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167
I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.
In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.
So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.
The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.
The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.
Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?
http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945
Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167
I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.
In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.
So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.
The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.
The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.
Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?
http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945
Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.
Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167
I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.
In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.
So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.
The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.
The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.
Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?
http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945
Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.
Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.
Whats your point? Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.
The point i was making is that EU policies have damaged our manufacturing industry, you see to be suggesting that the EU is innocent of this because of a policy brought about in 2016, long after the damage has been done.
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167
I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.
In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.
So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.
The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.
The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.
Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?
http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945
Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.
Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.
Whats your point? Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.
The point i was making is that EU policies have damaged our manufacturing industry, you see to be suggesting that the EU is innocent of this because of a policy brought about in 2016, long after the damage has been done.
No, because it doesn't talk about it at all. It mentions nothing about changing the current rules, including imposition of Anti-Dumping Duty. That's my point. What's your point about it, or are you just blaming it without knowing anything about it?
Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.
My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?
My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?
What EU trade deal?
There is no EU trade deal with China.
My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?
What EU trade deal?
There is no EU trade deal with China.
The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.
Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.
My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?
What EU trade deal?
There is no EU trade deal with China.
The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.
Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.
Yes, I know, but it that's just general objectives without any actual propositions. 'market access' can mean a lot of things, it doesn't just relate to tariffs.
And, as it's talking about the future, how exactly has a non-extent trade agreement between the EU and China meant us importing cheap steel in the past as you have repeatedly claimed?
My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?
What EU trade deal?
There is no EU trade deal with China.
The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.
Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.
Yes, I know, but it that's just general objectives without any actual propositions. 'market access' can mean a lot of things, it doesn't just relate to tariffs.
And, as it's talking about the future, how exactly has a non-extent trade agreement between the EU and China meant us importing cheap steel in the past as you have repeatedly claimed?
Its not a claim, its a fact. So what happened is the YEN crashed and the Chinese started selling steel to the uk at ridiculously low prices. This contributed the difficulties in the britain's ability to sell their own steel and the death nail in the industry this is well documented.
The EU and China do have a trade deal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stm
AS
1) The Chinese currency is the Yuan. The Yen is Japan’s currency.
2) The Yuan hasn’t collapsed against either the Euro or the Pound. It has gradually got stronger over the past decade and is about 30% stronger against both than it was 10 years ago.
This is really worrying. You obviously think hard about this and have strong, passionate opinions. But your facts are consistently miles off the mark. If you’re really making your mind up on these manifestly wrong “facts”, don’t you think you ought to stop and have a think?
BST
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36099043
This article explains that due to the EU we have had problems raising the trade tariff on china. Now tell me again how the EU doesn't have a negative impact on British industry.
BST
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36099043
This article explains that due to the EU we have had problems raising the trade tariff on china. Now tell me again how the EU doesn't have a negative impact on British industry.
It does nothing of the sort. It only says that it's a difficult decision because of the possible implications of retaliatory action, not that there are any problems raising tariffs. And it doesn't mention the EU once. No evidence whatsoever.
AS
Which arguments of mine have you shown to be wrong?
AS
Your persevernce in your arguments is admirable but I am afraid your arguments themselves are less the pursusive.
In October 2016 the EU imposed a tariff of 22% on the import of Chinese steel to stop dumping.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tata
In April 2017 it further raised these to 36%.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tata
This angered the Chinese who argued that this was against WTO rules and they would lodge a case with the WTO for compensation unless these were dropped. Thus in October 2017 the EU revised their tariffs and rules to avoid this case (which is your Telegraph story)
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/china-goes-public-in-wto-dispute-with-eu-and-us/articleshow/62088521.cms
https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/eus-new-anti-dumping-rules-threaten-trade-relations-with-china/
Of course there was one country in the EU that has always opposed raising tariffs on Chinese goods including steel - the UK.
https://fullfact.org/europe/is-uk-calling-for-lower-eu-duties-chinese-steel/
At no point in any of the Brexit negotiations have I ever heard anyone (other than you) say that it will allow us in the future to put barriers on trading with China. In fact all I have heard is that it will allow us to get a better free trade deal with China and more cheap Chinese imports.
Which is why Cameron has been appointed some sort of trade ambassador to China and ministers have been out there last week. I have no idea if these will lead to more imports of cheap Chinese steel but it certainly wont lead to less. And there is no way we could impose the extra tarrifs you want - it's illegal under WTO rules as that DT article shows.
Give it up. There is no economic argument for leaving the world's largest trading block. There is an ideological one but that's another story/argument on the lines of Farage.
The weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.
BST
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36099043
This article explains that due to the EU we have had problems raising the trade tariff on china. Now tell me again how the EU doesn't have a negative impact on British industry.
It does nothing of the sort. It only says that it's a difficult decision because of the possible implications of retaliatory action, not that there are any problems raising tariffs. And it doesn't mention the EU once. No evidence whatsoever.
Firstly it does mention the EU, second of all who do you think manages the european/ china tariffs from the european side of business? Its not individual countries as we aren't allowed to do that are we?
QuoteThe weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.
Jesus wept! How many times? By what measures I you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro? And what on Earth has any of that to do with our membership of the EU?
I think your post highlights some of the difficulties with the EU, being the time and complexity of putting safeguards, such as the aforementioned trade agreements in place. To try and put in a trade agreement to stem the flow of steel after the industry has already been destroyed is frustrating and ludicrous. Too little too late. How many times will the EU let this happen?
The weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.
I am not, and have not directly advocated higher tariffs with the Chinese in any of my posts, there are other protective measures that can be incorporated into trade agreements without the need for higher tariffs. As for Cameron and co I would check the lining of there pockets upon any agreement being reached. There will be no trade deal unless her personally benefits massively from it.
QuoteThe weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.
Jesus wept! How many times? By what measures I you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro? And what on Earth has any of that to do with our membership of the EU?
On what basis don't you?
QuoteThe weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.
Jesus wept! How many times? By what measures I you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro? And what on Earth has any of that to do with our membership of the EU?
On what basis don't you?
The last 1 stu, it's not about labour it's about any party, what they do is give a bit in 1 hand take it out the other but when all is done not much changes whichever party is in power
AS
Your persevernce in your arguments is admirable but I am afraid your arguments themselves are less the pursusive.
In October 2016 the EU imposed a tariff of 22% on the import of Chinese steel to stop dumping.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tata
In April 2017 it further raised these to 36%.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tata
This angered the Chinese who argued that this was against WTO rules and they would lodge a case with the WTO for compensation unless these were dropped. Thus in October 2017 the EU revised their tariffs and rules to avoid this case (which is your Telegraph story)
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/china-goes-public-in-wto-dispute-with-eu-and-us/articleshow/62088521.cms
https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/eus-new-anti-dumping-rules-threaten-trade-relations-with-china/
Of course there was one country in the EU that has always opposed raising tariffs on Chinese goods including steel - the UK.
https://fullfact.org/europe/is-uk-calling-for-lower-eu-duties-chinese-steel/
At no point in any of the Brexit negotiations have I ever heard anyone (other than you) say that it will allow us in the future to put barriers on trading with China. In fact all I have heard is that it will allow us to get a better free trade deal with China and more cheap Chinese imports.
Which is why Cameron has been appointed some sort of trade ambassador to China and ministers have been out there last week. I have no idea if these will lead to more imports of cheap Chinese steel but it certainly wont lead to less. And there is no way we could impose the extra tarrifs you want - it's illegal under WTO rules as that DT article shows.
Give it up. There is no economic argument for leaving the world's largest trading block. There is an ideological one but that's another story/argument on the lines of Farage.
AS
Your persevernce in your arguments is admirable but I am afraid your arguments themselves are less the pursusive.
In October 2016 the EU imposed a tariff of 22% on the import of Chinese steel to stop dumping.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tata
In April 2017 it further raised these to 36%.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tata
This angered the Chinese who argued that this was against WTO rules and they would lodge a case with the WTO for compensation unless these were dropped. Thus in October 2017 the EU revised their tariffs and rules to avoid this case (which is your Telegraph story)
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/china-goes-public-in-wto-dispute-with-eu-and-us/articleshow/62088521.cms
https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/eus-new-anti-dumping-rules-threaten-trade-relations-with-china/
Of course there was one country in the EU that has always opposed raising tariffs on Chinese goods including steel - the UK.
https://fullfact.org/europe/is-uk-calling-for-lower-eu-duties-chinese-steel/
At no point in any of the Brexit negotiations have I ever heard anyone (other than you) say that it will allow us in the future to put barriers on trading with China. In fact all I have heard is that it will allow us to get a better free trade deal with China and more cheap Chinese imports.
Which is why Cameron has been appointed some sort of trade ambassador to China and ministers have been out there last week. I have no idea if these will lead to more imports of cheap Chinese steel but it certainly wont lead to less. And there is no way we could impose the extra tarrifs you want - it's illegal under WTO rules as that DT article shows.
Give it up. There is no economic argument for leaving the world's largest trading block. There is an ideological one but that's another story/argument on the lines of Farage.
Yes AS fascinating as this whole debate has been and I must say taken in good- spirit WITHOUT anyone being patronising . This final quote is the most interesting and unhinged your fine attempts to make a good fist out of weak facts. I do wish you had the grace to concede when you are clearly fighting a losing battle though as difficult as that is .
Fact is the EU has had a negligible effect on our Steel Industry and you haven't proven your case in the least.
Anyway here's the quote I was referring to and perhaps you can enlighten me as to our actions ......
" Of course there was one country in the EU that has always opposed raising tariffs on Chinese goods including steel - the UK. "
Finally there are many Remainers on here and all have expressed some concern or another with the structure and day to day workings of the EU - however it is the best out there " warts and all " for us as a leading European country and certainly a better option than chasing trade deals with China ( strangely ) , USA , India and Turkey. There are many other ties we have with the bloc too and it has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the benefits of our being a member far outweighed the costs.
Still Brexit has killed the goose that lay the golden egg and that won't be replaced with inferior trade deals with any combination of the above countries . There are so many costs, more than anyone voting in that Referendum could ever know or perhaps admit to. It's not too late AS , oh and that decision NOT to put tariffs on Chinese goods anything to do with keeping the Chinese happy with their investment in Hinckley B or a future trade deal ?
I am still waiting for a Leaver to say anything positive about our 40 + years in the EU . Can you think of anything Aidanstu ?
Smashing AS I anticipated a reply that gave some positives about the EU followed by reasons why they were probably worthless so therefore to your way of thinking a complete waste of time to the average Joe Bloggs out there.
How you have missed the many many other positives that this country has received by being a member of this trading bloc shows you up . The way our people move , work, educate, retire and holiday seamlessly for the last 40 + years seems to have gone completely unnoticed by you . Where have you been or rather where have you NOT been during this time astounds me ?
It is obvious from your posts that you are a bright chap , able to wriggle your way out of the blind alleys that you yourself find yourself in ; so I find myself wondering whether you are being deliberately awkward ( a denier) or perhaps you have been brainwashed . My hope is that it is the former rather than the latter and at some stage you will finally drop the pretence and admit that you actually enjoy taking on a group of intellectuals on the back foot from the start . If so you deserve my admiration for making a really good fist in defending an extremely weak standpoint.
I'm not going to sit and list all the Treaties between the 28 as I suspect you yourself already know them all off by heart. Giving links to argument after argument and fact after fact about the prosperity that being a member of this club has bought us would I fear be lost on you anyway judging by what I've seen in this thread.
Finally just one final thought , I do have to declare an interest here with my daughter going to study at the University of Copenhagen next year with the financial support of the Erasmus + programme . She is not alone locally , kids from our area could never have dreamed of these opportunities in the 70's or for that matter afford them even now. In much the same way as the European Re-generation projects have propelled this region forward out of the ashes of Thatcher's Britain - these are two specific policies that our people have enjoyed the benefit of and sadly you failed to mention . Please open your eyes or at least drop the pretence.
Sorry I failed to address your final point on Hinckley B, yes it is a vanity project , like HS 2/3 - all persued to provide cover for what is to come . Yet another pretence to con the peoples of the Midlands and the North of England that all is well when quite clearly it won't be either affordable or sensible to persue projects that will be wildly out of date by the time of completion and providing of course the money lasts.
The paragraph you refer to above is an example of the EU inability to respond in a timely manner in regards to the threat of international trade, (it started to respond in 2014, way after the Chinese steel industry and exploited Europe. it was argued that the deal the EU was trying to enforce and which the UK was trying to avoid was one that simply throwing the baby out with the bath water and did nothing to protect British steel but was going to damage other trade links.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35951108
Smashing AS I anticipated a reply that gave some positives about the EU followed by reasons why they were probably worthless so therefore to your way of thinking a complete waste of time to the average Joe Bloggs out there.
How you have missed the many many other positives that this country has received by being a member of this trading bloc shows you up . The way our people move , work, educate, retire and holiday seamlessly for the last 40 + years seems to have gone completely unnoticed by you . Where have you been or rather where have you NOT been during this time astounds me ?
It is obvious from your posts that you are a bright chap , able to wriggle your way out of the blind alleys that you yourself find yourself in ; so I find myself wondering whether you are being deliberately awkward ( a denier) or perhaps you have been brainwashed . My hope is that it is the former rather than the latter and at some stage you will finally drop the pretence and admit that you actually enjoy taking on a group of intellectuals on the back foot from the start . If so you deserve my admiration for making a really good fist in defending an extremely weak standpoint.
I'm not going to sit and list all the Treaties between the 28 as I suspect you yourself already know them all off by heart. Giving links to argument after argument and fact after fact about the prosperity that being a member of this club has bought us would I fear be lost on you anyway judging by what I've seen in this thread.
Finally just one final thought , I do have to declare an interest here with my daughter going to study at the University of Copenhagen next year with the financial support of the Erasmus + programme . She is not alone locally , kids from our area could never have dreamed of these opportunities in the 70's or for that matter afford them even now. In much the same way as the European Re-generation projects have propelled this region forward out of the ashes of Thatcher's Britain - these are two specific policies that our people have enjoyed the benefit of and sadly you failed to mention . Please open your eyes or at least drop the pretence.
Sorry I failed to address your final point on Hinckley B, yes it is a vanity project , like HS 2/3 - all persued to provide cover for what is to come . Yet another pretence to con the peoples of the Midlands and the North of England that all is well when quite clearly it won't be either affordable or sensible to persue projects that will be wildly out of date by the time of completion and providing of course the money lasts.
Hoola differences apart I am aware of some of the positives Europe brings, although overall I still want out. That said I wish your daughters well for their studies.
Do you think it will make much difference to the average person if we are in or out of the eu? I was thinking back to when labour were in power other day and to be honest it's no different from now, apart from a few quid either way I'm not sure it makes any differencehttp://eprints.lse.ac.uk/67030/1/Begg_EU%20budget.pdf
Do you think it will make much difference to the average person if we are in or out of the eu? I was thinking back to when labour were in power other day and to be honest it's no different from now, apart from a few quid either way I'm not sure it makes any differencehttp://eprints.lse.ac.uk/67030/1/Begg_EU%20budget.pdf
Page 7, chart shows that of the 4 largest economies Britains contributions are the lowest.
"UK household is £3,000 per year better off through belonging to the EU. This may or may not be a well-founded statistic, but it is derived from an assessment that includes the effects of lower prices
attributable to the more competitive business environment of the single market and various"
If I have read correctly Britain's contributions work out to be 1% of the GNI, and as BST stated earlier the cost of a coffee/wk/person.
Do you think it will make much difference to the average person if we are in or out of the eu? I was thinking back to when labour were in power other day and to be honest it's no different from now, apart from a few quid either way I'm not sure it makes any differencehttp://eprints.lse.ac.uk/67030/1/Begg_EU%20budget.pdf
Page 7, chart shows that of the 4 largest economies Britains contributions are the lowest.
"UK household is £3,000 per year better off through belonging to the EU. This may or may not be a well-founded statistic, but it is derived from an assessment that includes the effects of lower prices
attributable to the more competitive business environment of the single market and various"
If I have read correctly Britain's contributions work out to be 1% of the GNI, and as BST stated earlier the cost of a coffee/wk/person.
Which people are £3000 better off? The average jo in the street? I think not. Both the London school of economics is part funded by the EU, is based in Westminster and benefit from the tuition fees of European students. What other motivation would they need to turn out such a report in any event. Hardly independent.
All of the references used in the report predate 2010 so the research is not either recent or relevant. Nice try though.
They obviously believed May when she kept on parroting 'no deal is better than a bad deal'!
People moaning about the result?
That’ll be the Farage who said in May 2016:”If we were to lose narrowly, there'd be a large section, particularly in the Conservative Party, who'd feel the prime minister is not playing fair, that the Remain side is using way more money than the Leave side and there would be a resentment that would build up if that was to be the result.”
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
Still, what do expect from him? The Kitson who said on the morning after the vote, “we did it without a shot being fired.” A week after Jo Cox had been shot dead by a maniac shouting “This is for Britain. Britain will always come first.”
Brexit: Nigel Farage says 'maybe' there should be a second referendum on EU membership
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-nigel-farage-second-referendum-eu-membership-wright-stuff-video-ukip-maybe-leader-a8153106.html
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;I think you'll have give a bit more detail so I/we can understand the point of your comment.
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.
Our civil service are unelected and not accountable to an electorate either.
I agree that the EU Parliament needs to have more muscle - in lots of areas - though.
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.
Our civil service are unelected and not accountable to an electorate either.
I agree that the EU Parliament needs to have more muscle - in lots of areas - though.
In theory they are supposed to be civil servants. In reality they appear to think of themselves as ministers in an EU government.
Military co-operation in Europe is via NATO. IMO the talk of an EU army is dangerous because it plays into the hands of Trump and other isolationists in the USA.
I think it is unlikely to happen but it is another symptom of Commissioners getting too much power.
Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .
This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.
Our civil service are unelected and not accountable to an electorate either.
I agree that the EU Parliament needs to have more muscle - in lots of areas - though.
In theory they are supposed to be civil servants. In reality they appear to think of themselves as ministers in an EU government.
That's because Ministers are part of the executive, as are EU Commissioners. And it's Ministers that are a government, so the Commissioners are quite right to think in those terms.
It's Britain that has the anomaly here as our Ministers are not only in the Executive but also in the Legislature. Most countries follow the Separation Of Powers as first delineated by Montesquieu in that they keep the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary completely separate as part of the checks and balances of government, in order to safeguard democracy.
The problem is then, that a lot of British people, who have only known the UK system and don't have any understanding of how other countries use the Separation Of Powers, then look at the EU - which uses that same model too - and decide that because it's not the same as the UK that it's wrong. Because most Britons think of the government as being Parliament, which it isn't.
Military co-operation in Europe is via NATO. IMO the talk of an EU army is dangerous because it plays into the hands of Trump and other isolationists in the USA.
I think it is unlikely to happen but it is another symptom of Commissioners getting too much power.
I'm glad that you agree with me that EU Commissioners see themselves as ministers not Civil Servants. So the question is then... when did we vote for this "EU Government?"
Glyn’s bang on. We are an anomaly.
Look at the USA. Who voted in Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State? Or Steve Mnuchin as Treasury Secretary?
EU Cimmissioners are selected by the heads of RU national governments. If you don’t like the Commissioner(s) that your country chooses, vote for a different national Govt.
Glyn’s bang on. We are an anomaly.
Look at the USA. Who voted in Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State? Or Steve Mnuchin as Treasury Secretary?
EU Cimmissioners are selected by the heads of RU national governments. If you don’t like the Commissioner(s) that your country chooses, vote for a different national Govt.
Apart from the electorate of Maidenhead, we don't even get to vote for the person who appoints our Ministers!
Well, they really brought that bare-faced liar David Davis to account, didn't they!
Talking about ministers being accountable for their actions, looks like there’s one here trying to walk back the clusterf**k that he’s led us into.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-brexit-stay-eu-soft-brexit-farage-2018-1
Well, they really brought that bare-faced liar David Davis to account, didn't they!
That's because the Opposition is useless. You only have to look at the opinion polls. With the Government in trouble on so many fronts, Labour should be streets ahead.
They've missed more open goals than Rovers strikers have this season!
Wilts
I don’t doubt that there’s sense behind Corbyn’s stance. For now.
Labour will take a hit whichever side he finally comes down on. For now, it makes sense for him to keep schtum and avoid the issue. But that won’t wash in the next Election (if it happens pre March 2019). And it won’t wash if there’s no Election before then, because he’ll have a vote in the House to handle.
Of course though, Corbyn, being a man of principle rather than an evasive politician will be relishing the moment when he tells us what he really thinks about the EU.
And the evidence of the effect of Brexit continues to mount.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/956824679213404160
And the evidence of the effect of Brexit continues to mount.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/956824679213404160
FiloAssuming you actually DO want to see that information, because it makes VERY “interesting” reading for Brexit supporters.
The data for all the other major countries is there in that second link I posted. Page 2. It’s not graphed up but you can read it for yourself.
And here’s the problem. That comment implies that the way the original data was presented is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. That’s the Zeitgeist at the moment. If folk see someone present data that contradicts my opinions, they assume that they are dissembling and being economical with the truth and putting the best spin on that data. So they discount it.
But this is a perfect example of what you COULD do. In the time it took that person to write the “wouldn’t it be interesting” tweet, they could have gone on Google and found the OECD report that I posted. Which clearly shows a common trend. EVERY major economy is seeing its growth strengthen over the past 18 months - apart from the UK which has seen its growth rate go from top of the list to bottom.
10 second’s effort to find the information you need.
Well the most powerful man on the planet, somebody who does happen a bit about the generation of wealth thinks Brexit is a good idea, unlike his predecessor Obama who had tried bullying tactics to try and make us stay in.I'm not sure quoting trump does your credibility any favours
Mark my words if Trump had said anything negative about Brexit all of the amateur statististions on here would have been bellowing like Castrated Hippos !
In the end, the economics is key to how the Brexit fantasy will end. No sane government or parliament will allow an outcome that makes people on average 8% worse off. That is why we have to make a deal with the EU, and the only deal the EU will allow is one that prevents a hard Irish border. That means staying in the Customs Union and much, possibly all, of the Single Market. Brexit will end with the UK becoming what Rees-Mogg describes as a vassal state. It will not be the fantasy people voted for, nor the fantasy the Brexiters had in mind.
When reality bites, almost no one who voted Leave will be happy with the result. So should Remainers stay quiet and just wait for this disappointment to sink in, just for the sake of a particularly partial concept of democracy? To allow peoples lives to be impoverished and their opportunities to be diminished because of a referendum based on lies? There are democratic ways out of this fantasy turned nightmare, and we should take them.
Billy I don't doubt that Europe will still be our major trading partner, but once we are free of the shackles we won't have to worry about Proping up all of those Banana republics east and south of Berlin, plus the PIGS.which are already struggling due to events in the Southern Mediterranean.
Russia is not a threat to us it is an opportunity
By the way they already can control our Air space with their ss500 missiles.
Let the Poles and Germans worry about Russia, its about time they put their Shoulders to the cart.
He shows respect for the UK, which is refreshing these days.
He shows respect for the UK, which is refreshing these days.
BST, Hoolahoop asked Sproty, "Is there a nation that you do have respect for Sproty"?
I said "He shows respect for the UK, which is refreshing these days".
BST, Hoolahoop asked Sproty, "Is there a nation that you do have respect for Sproty"?
I said "He shows respect for the UK, which is refreshing these days".
How or why did you assume that I don't love my country from the contents of my post ?
Like Billy and others, if we didn't give a fook about our country , then why are we so desperately trying to maintain its position in the world ? We dont want it to be poorer, we dont want our friends and allies around the world thinking we dont care about ALL our people , we want to work properly with others for a brighter , safer, fairer and more prosperous future.
That certainly , in my view anyway, can't be done shackled to the USA,
who incidentally want to put trade barriers up with our new friends in China , have sanctions already imposed on Russia ( mentioned above ) and want to build walls along the Mexican border In addition they want to renege on the trade deal they have signed with Mexico and Canada . Currently the USA are far from " sound " allies except when it suits them and only them . Finally there is the USA 's attitude on NATO, their foreign aid to bribe countries to vote with them and their attitude to global warming and the fact that they are the ONLY country to sign up to the Paris Accord but then once again renege on that agreement.
It doesn't bode well surely does it ? By the way I love the USA and most of the Americans I have met in my life
BST, Hoolahoop asked Sproty, "Is there a nation that you do have respect for Sproty"?
I said "He shows respect for the UK, which is refreshing these days".
How or why did you assume that I don't love my country from the contents of my post ?
Like Billy and others, if we didn't give a fook about our country , then why are we so desperately trying to maintain its position in the world ? We dont want it to be poorer, we dont want our friends and allies around the world thinking we dont care about ALL our people , we want to work properly with others for a brighter , safer, fairer and more prosperous future.
That certainly , in my view anyway, can't be done shackled to the USA,
who incidentally want to put trade barriers up with our new friends in China , have sanctions already imposed on Russia ( mentioned above ) and want to build walls along the Mexican border In addition they want to renege on the trade deal they have signed with Mexico and Canada . Currently the USA are far from " sound " allies except when it suits them and only them . Finally there is the USA 's attitude on NATO, their foreign aid to bribe countries to vote with them and their attitude to global warming and the fact that they are the ONLY country to sign up to the Paris Accord but then once again renege on that agreement.
It doesn't bode well surely does it ? By the way I love the USA and most of the Americans I have met in my life
You clearly don't have much respect for our neighbours in Sheffield judging by what I have just pulled you up for on another thread!
Camerons legacy. Give the people a say and that will shut the Euro sceptics up for a generation after which I will be gone anyway
Instead he presented us the compete mess we have now * and one which (whether we Leave or not) will probably "haunt us" for many years to come
Cheers Cameron - * but you are ok as Sam has a field somewhere in Scunthorpe !
Genius, the current line from the Tories.
May says we will be leaving THE customs union.
Hammond says we will need to stay in A customs union.
Fox says we will not be in ANY customs union after Brexit.
Rees-Mogg says anyone whose predictions disagree with what happens in Rees-Moggland is fiddling the figures.
Well that’s clear then. Obviously the Govt is pulling together to deliver exactly the Brexit that the Will of the People clearly and unambiguously demanded in June 2016.
“...the present arrangement is a hideous international embarrassment. It seems to me painfully obvious that we need an extension of the negotiating period set by article 50 – entirely possible under its section 3 – if only to replace panic with some semblance of deliberation. And, sooner rather than later, there should be another general election.
“I am scarcely Jeremy Corbyn’s greatest fan, but the notion that the status quo must be preserved simply to thwart his chances of becoming prime minister is not only democratically contemptible but morally outrageous. Indeed, the prospect of a fresh election would force Labour, at last, to spell out its plans for Brexit, and embrace the risks of clarity.
“Yes, I know the voters are fed up of trudging to the polling booths. But they’ll be even more fed up if Britain sleepwalks into a second-rate status, with all that implies, because a clinically dead government was permitted by a mixture of squeamishness and boredom to remain on life support. Time to flick the switch and see what happens.”
It just gets to be more and more of a farce, and an unfunny one at that. Number Ten confirms this morning that we're definitely leaving the Customs Union. Later today Barnier confirms that this means we'll lose the benefits of being in the Customs Union...and then David Davis - sat next to Barnier! - says we want to still have all the benefits of being in the Customs Union but not be members of it! You couldn't make it up. I can't believe people are willing to trust this bunch of amateurs to negotiate loads of free trade deals after we leave the EU.
Perhaps the EU still think there's a chance that the momentum switches back toward remain and by whatever means a new vote could be had, but fear that any strong-arm tactics by them would only serve to cement any wavering brexiters back firmly in the 'leave' camp.
Would no-nonsense hardliner Jacob Rees-Mogg handle the negotiations better?
They discussed with experts who knew something about the issues. They anticipated scenarios and considered risk-benefit cases.
What they didn’t do was listen to a bell end like Rees-Mogg.
So approving everything they say is the way forward?
So approving everything they say is the way forward?
If you say so. Nobody else on here has suggested it though.
If I’d discussed it with Rees-Mogg?
Well, I wouldn’t have been the Wright Brothers. That’s for sure. I’d have ended up like the blokes who dressed up as chickens and jumped off Margate pier in an attempt to prove that man could fly.
I said that people who want to assess what will happen in hitherto unencountered scenarios listen to EXPERTS. Not gobshites and snake oil salesmen.
So approving everything they say is the way forward?
If you say so. Nobody else on here has suggested it though.
I didn't say so. I asked a question. Either answer the question without distorting it or don't get involved.
Obviously not though, seeing as most people voted to leave. Isn't it a case of believing who you want to believe?
Obviously not though, seeing as most people voted to leave. Isn't it a case of believing who you want to believe?
Many of those who voted brexit will not be fully informed; they probably didn't have the time to fully research the issues, were misled by politicians that should/do know better and were let down by the journos and media that they do follow - most of my friends fall into this category and none of them are idiots. It's an appalling situation and one that we could still pull out of, but unfortunately we won't
That description is very accurate of the Brexiteers that I know. To be banded together with the racists,xenophobes and far right doesn't do justice to many.Obviously not though, seeing as most people voted to leave. Isn't it a case of believing who you want to believe?
Many of those who voted brexit will not be fully informed; they probably didn't have the time to fully research the issues, were misled by politicians that should/do know better and were let down by the journos and media that they do follow - most of my friends fall into this category and none of them are idiots. It's an appalling situation and one that we could still pull out of, but unfortunately we won't
You never let me down wilts!
Like I've always said before regarding anything Brexit, I don't know! After all, it's never happened before, so anything I say would only be conjecture. That's why I'm interested in the views of those who deem themselves capable of accurately predicting the outcome of it.
Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
And the politicians who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.
Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
And the politicians who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.
The people who voted in the 1975 referendum didn't vote to join anything, they voted for the status quo as it was at that time, which is what they got. Where the UK went in the EU after that was decided by the successive UK governments that were also voted for by the British public.
Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
And the politicians who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.
The people who voted in the 1975 referendum didn't vote to join anything, they voted for the status quo as it was at that time, which is what they got. Where the UK went in the EU after that was decided by the successive UK governments that were also voted for by the British public.
I am not sure that I agree with that but maybe I misunderstand what you are saying
In 75 I voted against joining the Common Market (quite ironic given I am a remainer now) but it seemed that the Vote was largely made on Party Lines and so it was YEARS and I do mean YEARS till I ever met anyone that voted YES to joining
So I believe I voted NOT to join the Common Market. Ironically the Tories won that Vote and since then half of them have pulled themselves apart time and again trying to get us back out and finally they have done it - and again ironically a lot of Labour Party voters helped them as they voted "Leave"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967 and now ignore the report of what will happen as it doesn't include the guesswork outcome of what we most likely can't have
Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
And the politicians who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.
The people who voted in the 1975 referendum didn't vote to join anything, they voted for the status quo as it was at that time, which is what they got. Where the UK went in the EU after that was decided by the successive UK governments that were also voted for by the British public.
I am not sure that I agree with that but maybe I misunderstand what you are saying
In 75 I voted against joining the Common Market (quite ironic given I am a remainer now) but it seemed that the Vote was largely made on Party Lines and so it was YEARS and I do mean YEARS till I ever met anyone that voted YES to joining
So I believe I voted NOT to join the Common Market. Ironically the Tories won that Vote and since then half of them have pulled themselves apart time and again trying to get us back out and finally they have done it - and again ironically a lot of Labour Party voters helped them as they voted "Leave"
We joined on Jan 1st 1973 so you certainly didn't vote not to join anything, we were already in it.
And it certainly wasn't fought on party lines - it was the only time I can remember that Cabinet Collective Responsibility was suspended, so that Government Ministers were able to stand on opposing sides of the argument and disagree with one another. Members of other parties were allowed to stand on opposing sides too - it was as far removed from being on party lines as you could get.
How do you make it that the Tories 'won' the vote? Both Wilson and Heath were on the 'Yes' side, and Wilson was PM at the time.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43001931
Jesus wept. Barnier and Davis are like an exasperated parent and a child who is slow on the uptake then has a tantrum.
How many times does Barnier have to state the bleeding obvious?
1) If Britain wants a transition period where we retain all the benefits of trade with Europe, then Europe insists that we keep our side of the deal in the rights of people coming from the EU to Britain.
2) If Britain wants a Hard Brexit then there are going to be serious implications for the Irish border.
These things aren’t hard to grasp. They are bleeding obvious to anyone who spends 5 minutes looking at the issues. Yet Barnier is having to repeat them week after week after week, while Davis moans that he’s not being fair and WHY, WHY, WHY can’t we have the deal that WE want and I HATE YOU!!!
Errr, Barnier has already made a concession. We said we were going to leave the EU in March 2019 but wanted a transition/implementation period for some time after it. He said fair enough.
Why Davies has now decided that this mean the UK can have different rules accessing the EU to the 27 remaining members seems bonkers to me - and very worrying to many people in Northern Ireland - so perhaps someone can explain it?
What, he wants us to stick to rules that something we want to be a part of and benefit from for a while longer will be implementing? the bas**rd.
Barnier my way or the highway. I will punish you if you don't agree to everything I demand theres no negotiation this idiot just demands :whistle:
wait for it................
Sporty.
Yeah. What a Kitson that Barnier is. Telling us there might be some rules that we’ll need to follow if we’re going to be able to trade with the EU after we leave. Who the f**k does he think he is?
If only we had an aircraft carrier with some planes on it, we should invade the bas**rds and put them in their place.
Mind, the Benelux countries would be a bit pissed off if we invaded them, given that Barnier is French. Still, the f**kers are all the same aren’t they?
You forgot that we’ve got Akrotiri and Dhekelis in too, do that’s Cyprus sorted an all.
Let’s get on with it!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967 and now ignore the report of what will happen as it doesn't include the guesswork outcome of what we most likely can't have
Bloody hell! I’ve just realised that when this information was leaked last week, the wrong spin was put on it. They said that the Treasurey analysis was that by 2030, we’d have lost 2-8% of cumulative economic output by 2030 depending on the exact Brexit relationship.
That was wrong. What the data actual says is that our GDP PER YEAR will be 2-8% lower by 2030.
That’s a totally different sum. That means that we’ll have lower GDP EVERY YEAR and getting steadily worse from now to 2030.
Fag packet numbers. This means that over the next 12 years, we’ll lose £250bn of output even if we get a good deal with the EU. If we get a bad deal and go into WTO rules, which is what Rees-Mogg, Redwood and Johnson have said we should do, we’ll lose ONE TRILLION POUNDS of economic output by 2030.
One trillion f**king quid. That’s the equivalent of a cheque for £40,000 pushed through the letterbox of every door in the country.
Ever get the feeling you’ve been had, Brexiters?
Barnier my way or the highway. I will punish you if you don't agree to everything I demand theres no negotiation this idiot just demands :whistle:
wait for it................
Well it would seem that quite a few other EEC counties share my views on Barnier.
We should pull our troops out of Europe and walk away from the EEC,and just watch then poop their pants,they can't hurt us without hurting themselves, Barnier is an idiot, I can't believe that some of the posters on here actually support his views.
Well it would seem that quite a few other EEC counties share my views on Barnier.
We should pull our troops out of Europe and walk away from the EEC,and just watch then poop their pants,they can't hurt us without hurting themselves, Barnier is an idiot, I can't believe that some of the posters on here actually support his views.
Well it would seem that quite a few other EEC counties share my views on Barnier.
We should pull our troops out of Europe and walk away from the EEC,and just watch then poop their pants,they can't hurt us without hurting themselves, Barnier is an idiot, I can't believe that some of the posters on here actually support his views.
Sporty I usually read your posts expecting something interesting to emerge but sadly you badly disappointed me with this one . What is your thought process here ?
Well it would seem that quite a few other EEC counties share my views on Barnier.
We should pull our troops out of Europe and walk away from the EEC,and just watch then poop their pants,they can't hurt us without hurting themselves, Barnier is an idiot, I can't believe that some of the posters on here actually support his views.
Sporty I usually read your posts expecting something interesting to emerge but sadly you badly disappointed me with this one . What is your thought process here ?
If we pull our troops out of Europe it will cause a massive consternation and much panic amongst the EEC suddenly Germant and several other
countries will have to spend billions more on their defence,Germany in particular will have to fund a full armoured Division,every EEC country east of. Germany will have to fund their armed forces properly instead of enjoying a free ride on our backs.
No I'm not advocating pulling out of NATO we will still commit our Navy Airforce,Marines and Air Mobile Brigade to NATO. But the Cost impact will cause a lot of those countries to squeal!
All MAY has to do is merely suggest it and I think we will see a change in attitude.
That's a cracking way to get some semester out of them.
Sproty
Be consistent. You’ve been telling us for years that Putin is a friend to all and we should embrace him. Why should European countries panic then if we withdraw a few hundred troops from Estonia and a couple of thousand from Germany? Presumably there’s no threat to protect against?
Sproty.
There’s 500 channels out there apart from Yesterday...
Sproty.
There’s 500 channels out there apart from Yesterday...
So the Hard Brexiters have won the Cabinet fight then TRB. We’re on the slope to the cliff edge.
Sporty.
Yeah. What a Kitson that Barnier is. Telling us there might be some rules that we’ll need to follow if we’re going to be able to trade with the EU after we leave. Who the f**k does he think he is?
If only we had an aircraft carrier with some planes on it, we should invade the bas**rds and put them in their place.
Mind, the Benelux countries would be a bit pissed off if we invaded them, given that Barnier is French. Still, the f**kers are all the same aren’t they?
We have an armoured Division in Germany we don't have to do any Invading
And an Armoured Brigade in Estonia and armoured units in Poland.
Latest you gov poll has tories 4 points ahead bit surprised, but think it shows if correct labour will struggle to get in power with Corbyn in charge
So the Hard Brexiters have won the Cabinet fight then TRB. We’re on the slope to the cliff edge.
And an Armoured Brigade in Estonia and armoured units in Poland.
Armoured infantry battle group in Estonia. The Estonians can only field a brigade and the 1 royal Welsh battle group is part of that brigade.
Your support of the army by inflating numbers is admirable but 2 minutes on Wikipedia would have saved you being fact checked like this.
Latest you gov poll has tories 4 points ahead bit surprised, but think it shows if correct labour will struggle to get in power with Corbyn in charge
Nope. It's nowhere near that one armoured regiment, one armoured infantry battalion. One regiment of engineers soon to be a squadron, one regiment of artillery and a field hospital. A couple of independent companies, doing police and intelligence. Add in a couple of headquarters.
The units out there are massively undermanned. I'm currently serving at the minute and have to deal with an ever increasing list of tasks and an ever shrinking list of soldiers to do them.
As for the flying troops in, not a chance would this work, there aren't the numbers to do it and the RAF don't have enough airframe to do it. Britain doesn't have the capability to do it alone any more. We would rely on a huge influx of Americans to help shore up Europe. NATO is the best thing going for us, as is the EU.
Brexir has down discord between us and the rest of Europe and this can only be bad for NATO. Not only that my wages are worth less now than they were before the brexit vote. My own morale is at an all time low never mind the lads who work for me.
Latest you gov poll has tories 4 points ahead bit surprised, but think it shows if correct labour will struggle to get in power with Corbyn in charge
The Tories have had small leads in three polls this week. Says a lot about Labour because even under normal circumstances you'd expect the Opposition to have a poll lead at this stage of a Parliament.
Nope. It's nowhere near that one armoured regiment, one armoured infantry battalion. One regiment of engineers soon to be a squadron, one regiment of artillery and a field hospital. A couple of independent companies, doing police and intelligence. Add in a couple of headquarters.
The units out there are massively undermanned. I'm currently serving at the minute and have to deal with an ever increasing list of tasks and an ever shrinking list of soldiers to do them.
As for the flying troops in, not a chance would this work, there aren't the numbers to do it and the RAF don't have enough airframe to do it. Britain doesn't have the capability to do it alone any more. We would rely on a huge influx of Americans to help shore up Europe. NATO is the best thing going for us, as is the EU.
Brexir has down discord between us and the rest of Europe and this can only be bad for NATO. Not only that my wages are worth less now than they were before the brexit vote. My own morale is at an all time low never mind the lads who work for me.
8 Globemaster,24 Hercules,60 chinook......that's 4,000 troops easily over to Germany in 2 hours.
Nope. It's nowhere near that one armoured regiment, one armoured infantry battalion. One regiment of engineers soon to be a squadron, one regiment of artillery and a field hospital. A couple of independent companies, doing police and intelligence. Add in a couple of headquarters.
The units out there are massively undermanned. I'm currently serving at the minute and have to deal with an ever increasing list of tasks and an ever shrinking list of soldiers to do them.
As for the flying troops in, not a chance would this work, there aren't the numbers to do it and the RAF don't have enough airframe to do it. Britain doesn't have the capability to do it alone any more. We would rely on a huge influx of Americans to help shore up Europe. NATO is the best thing going for us, as is the EU.
Brexir has down discord between us and the rest of Europe and this can only be bad for NATO. Not only that my wages are worth less now than they were before the brexit vote. My own morale is at an all time low never mind the lads who work for me.
8 Globemaster,24 Hercules,60 chinook......that's 4,000 troops easily over to Germany in 2 hours.
Wouldn't work, how many of those airframes are taskworthy at any one time. Its not even half id venture.
Also 2 hours? Do you think the army are sat on their Bergens waiting for the nod. Nope they're on leave, they're on courses. They're on exercise. They're on the sick injured. They're anywhere but sat in the barracks waiting to go.
Where are they going to leave from? The airfields will be targeted by strategic bombers immediately as will all the ports.
Nope. It's nowhere near that one armoured regiment, one armoured infantry battalion. One regiment of engineers soon to be a squadron, one regiment of artillery and a field hospital. A couple of independent companies, doing police and intelligence. Add in a couple of headquarters.
The units out there are massively undermanned. I'm currently serving at the minute and have to deal with an ever increasing list of tasks and an ever shrinking list of soldiers to do them.
As for the flying troops in, not a chance would this work, there aren't the numbers to do it and the RAF don't have enough airframe to do it. Britain doesn't have the capability to do it alone any more. We would rely on a huge influx of Americans to help shore up Europe. NATO is the best thing going for us, as is the EU.
Brexir has down discord between us and the rest of Europe and this can only be bad for NATO. Not only that my wages are worth less now than they were before the brexit vote. My own morale is at an all time low never mind the lads who work for me.
8 Globemaster,24 Hercules,60 chinook......that's 4,000 troops easily over to Germany in 2 hours.
Wouldn't work, how many of those airframes are taskworthy at any one time. Its not even half id venture.
Also 2 hours? Do you think the army are sat on their Bergens waiting for the nod. Nope they're on leave, they're on courses. They're on exercise. They're on the sick injured. They're anywhere but sat in the barracks waiting to go.
Where are they going to leave from? The airfields will be targeted by strategic bombers immediately as will all the ports.
Probably all are airworthy they ain't got the life of a Monarch airlines jet!
Which seem to be in the air for 20 hours a day every day. Military kit is built to an even higher standard. In any case we wouldn't even need a strategic airlift to get 20 k troops to Germany we merely commandeer the civil fleet, aka Atlantic conveyor.
The biggest issue for Hm Forces would be getting a second Armoured division across the North Sea, that would be hard work.
If we have the equipment on site staffing. An armoured Division with personnel from the uk can be achieved in 48 hours. Provided we are in a situation where we have time to react A pre emotive strike is a different matter.
Sproty
Is this invasion before or after we pull out of the Custom’s Union?
If it’s after, the troops wouldn’t be able to get to Dover for trucks backing up the M2.
Hmm. Unironically posting about pulling troops out of Europe, and invading. But it's remainers who are spitting the dummy out.
This thread is weird.
Hmm. Unironically posting about pulling troops out of Europe, and invading. But it's remainers who are spitting the dummy out.
This thread is weird.
Well well well you have been following all of this closely haven't you . " spitting dummies out " the best you can come out with MM about the biggest decision this country has faced for nigh on a century ?
Hmm. Unironically posting about pulling troops out of Europe, and invading. But it's remainers who are spitting the dummy out.
This thread is weird.
More than that it is quite pathetic and doesn't acknowledge current circumstances at all. Brexiters grow up .
Well well well you have been following all of this closely haven't you . " spitting dummies out " the best you can come out with MM about the biggest decision this country has faced for nigh on a century ?
Not only that, I'd have thought the thought of pulling our troops out of EU countries in an act of petulance by a Brexiteer who wasn't getting what they wanted was the biggest dummy being spat.
sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
A question for the ages, that one Glyn. Far cleverer than us have pondered it and got nowhere. Still, yes, I was using sarcasm to point out the ridiculousness of a Brexiteer accusing others of spitting the dummy out while simultaneously talking about invading Europe, or some other such nonsense.sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
How do you convey sarcasm in the written word?
sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
How do you convey sarcasm in the written word?
Right you morons when I have I said we would invade Europe?
A question for the ages, that one Glyn. Far cleverer than us have pondered it and got nowhere. Still, yes, I was using sarcasm to point out the ridiculousness of a Brexiteer accusing others of spitting the dummy out while simultaneously talking about invading Europe, or some other such nonsense.
BB, it's almost as if there isn't a single "remainer" mindset and people are free to agree, disagree, and interpret things differently. As a remain voter yourself I imagine you know that though and are just being a mischievous little tyke again.
That got lost in the quote....Right you Morons when did I say out about invading Europe?
or some other such nonsense
That got lost in the quote....Right you Morons when did I say out about invading Europe?
A question for the ages, that one Glyn. Far cleverer than us have pondered it and got nowhere. Still, yes, I was using sarcasm to point out the ridiculousness of a Brexiteer accusing others of spitting the dummy out while simultaneously talking about invading Europe, or some other such nonsense.sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
How do you convey sarcasm in the written word?
BB, it's almost as if there isn't a single "remainer" mindset and people are free to agree, disagree, and interpret things differently. As a remain voter yourself I imagine you know that though and are just being a mischievous little tyke again.
sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
How do you convey sarcasm in the written word?
The purple for sarcasm idea was a great one, and whoever thought of it should take great credit.
sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
How do you convey sarcasm in the written word?
The convention a while back was to colour such comments purple and in italics BUT - like my attempts at humour the convention seems to have died a death
Should be the law really for every right-minded poster.
Should be the law really for every right-minded poster.
Thanks, hope you are not including me in that...
Should be the law really for every right-minded poster.
Thanks, hope you are not including me in that...
No mate, you're usually wrong...
Easy just type message as I am now - then when you have finished click "Preview" below right
Then click Change Colour - Top right - and select Colour you want and invoke any other features such as "Italics" or "Move" or both and you should get the above !
Simpler than B****t (the word I will never use on principle and whose Thread I have ambushed !)
Bags I get posted to Slovenia then , I've heard it's positively " Alpine " there . It seems safer than Germany, Poland or the Baltics.
Anyway Sproty when are you thinking of starting it - I wouldn't want it to interfere with my Quiz night or meal out at the local Tapas bar ?
I wonder if you will beat Bojo the clown to it ?
Bags I get posted to Slovenia then , I've heard it's positively " Alpine " there . It seems safer than Germany, Poland or the Baltics.
Anyway Sproty when are you thinking of starting it - I wouldn't want it to interfere with my Quiz night or meal out at the local Tapas bar ?
I wonder if you will beat Bojo the clown to it ?
Slovenia???.....no no no Hoola you will have a special mission on the RUSSIAN front, digging latrines with a soup spoon!
Liebenraum?
You want a Loving Space Sproty? I reckon you’re on the wrong website mate!
[/quote
Billy Your name is in the BOOK
Ahem.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jonnyhibberd/status/964904050599788544
Brexit supporters. If you have a spare 15 mins, read this. And have a think how you’ve been played by a small group of extremely motivated, very intelligent and well connected right wing activists.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/
From the mouth of the Vote Leave head himself:
“Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. ”
Very skilful, very deliberate lying from these folk.
Brexit supporters. If you have a spare 15 mins, read this. And have a think how you’ve been played by a small group of extremely motivated, very intelligent and well connected right wing activists.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/
From the mouth of the Vote Leave head himself:
“Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. ”
Very skilful, very deliberate lying from these folk.
Heard the latest? The hardline Brexiters want to rewrite the Good Friday Agreement - that over 70% of Northern Ireland voted for in a (guess what?) referendum! - because it doesn't fit in with what they want!
Interesting news today (no not that the EU have already ruled out May's preferred future option before the Chequers meeting has decided whether or not they agree with it!) but McDonnell signalling that Labour will support the Tory rebels amendment to the Trade Bill forcing the government to negotiate to stay in the Customs Union.
Which could lead to May loosing a vote on the one point she has been very definate about...well then what?
A few papers including the Telegraph claiming the EU has hinted that British Driving licences may not be recognised in Europe after Brexit.
A bit silly if it's true and a very childish negative attitude on their part.
Politics is in a very bad place atm. Neither main party is fit to govern or has any credible politicians in my humble opinion
Politics is in a very bad place atm. Neither main party is fit to govern or has any credible politicians in my humble opinion
PR anyone for a more representative way to Govern / be Goverened ? Keeps out extremism either way
I think it is 1931 since the "winning" Party in a General Election got more than 50% of the votes cast and there have been Lanslides when the winning Party have got only 42% of the Votes cast
If its good enough for the majority of modern Democracies why not us as well ?
A few papers including the Telegraph claiming the EU has hinted that British Driving licences may not be recognised in Europe after Brexit.
A bit silly if it's true and a very childish negative attitude on their part.
It won't take on here, our roads are such a mess and full of nob heads driving to very low standards
It won't take on here, our roads are such a mess and full of nob heads driving to very low standards
In the UK, there's roughly 1 person in every 40,000 in the country who gets killed in a road crash each year. In the USA it's about 1 in 8000.
So the USA has far more dangerous roads/drivers than we have. And they are not exactly known for having gentle, unaggressive compensation lawyers. Yet driverless vehicles are being pushed very hard over there. Can't see any reason why they won't be pushed hard here also.
Filo. No need for a witness statement. There'll be computer records and all-round video cameras capturing every millisecond of data.
Ha... there is a 180 billion euro shortfall in the EEC Green budget which must be achieved by 2020 and the EEC expects the UK to contribute more on defence spending, Border controls and the Policing of illegal immigration.
No wonder they are crapping themselves and making childish threats to the UK about banning UK driving licences!
Pah!, the sooner we cut ourselves free of this Deadman the Better.
I can't see car hire companies and hotels and gite owners welcoming such a move.
Ok ladies just to let you know Fox hasn't got a clue, the are conventions governing driving licences and Motor Insurance that pre date Our Membership of the EEC which will facilitate a smooth and seamless Brexit on this issue.
Ok ladies just to let you know Fox hasn't got a clue, the are conventions governing driving licences and Motor Insurance that pre date Our Membership of the EEC which will facilitate a smooth and seamless Brexit on this issue.
So what the f**k are the Telegraph - and then you - getting your knickers in a twist about then?
I knew that, I'm trying to find out whether he does or whether he just regurgitates any old crap. He can obviously find the info, but apparently only after he's posted the original claim and got in a froth about it.
I knew that, I'm trying to find out whether he does or whether he just regurgitates any old crap. He can obviously find the info, but apparently only after he's posted the original claim and got in a froth about it.
Well at least it's a step up from Oslo who spouts completely unsubstantiated shite then challenges anyone to disagree with his made up facts to prove him wrong...
Admittedly I didn't hear Corbyn's speech and only seen reports, but for me there is a huge difference between "a customs union" and "THE Customs Union."
Since the speech seems to point to the former, which is something that will have to be negotiated with the EU, I can't see that Labour's position is that much different to the Government's.
EDIT. This just seems like more cherry-picking to me.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43189878
Labour would seek a final deal that gives full access to European markets and maintains the benefits of the single market and the customs union
TRB
I couldn’t agree more. I listened to the speech on the radio whilst working on a report so I might not have got all the subtleties. But from what I can see, he’s asking for:
1) A bespoke CU that gives us all the benefits of trade with the EU and all the flexibility that we want for external trade.
2) Leaving the SM in terms that leave us no worse off.
3) The right to re-work freedom of movement agreements.
4) Nothing that affects the GFA.
It doesn’t stack up. There are massive internal contradictions in that stance. But it’s not REALLY about Brexit anyway. This is about appealing to current and actual Labour supporters. He’s still in the mode of telling the pro- and anti-Brexit Labour supporters that he’s in both of their sides. Because he needs them both to vote Labour in the General Election that we’re likely to have in the next 12 months.
IF he wins the GE, THEN he’ll have to formulate a credible Brexit strategy. This speech isn’t a credible Brexit strategy.
The Corbyn speech and Labour's new position is designed purely to get Tory rebels onside with the aim of bringing down the Maybot and hopefully paving the way for an election this year, with the added bonus of keeping all Labour voters in the fold.
Clever stuff imo whether or not it's a feasible plan with regard to any Brexit deal.
The Corbyn speech and Labour's new position is designed purely to get Tory rebels onside with the aim of bringing down the Maybot and hopefully paving the way for an election this year, with the added bonus of keeping all Labour voters in the fold.
Clever stuff imo whether or not it's a feasible plan with regard to any Brexit deal.
Wilts
The point is, as Corbyn well knows, we’re not going to get a deal that involves:
1) Having a pick and mix Customs Union.
2) Having significant restrictions on freedom of movement.
3) Leaving the Single Market.
4) Having a day in CU/SM decisions affecting Britain.
4) Having an economic result which is at least as beneficial as the status quo ante.
Which is, in a nutshell, what he said his aim was today. He’s still essentially saying that we want all the benefits and none of the things we don’t like. There’s zero chance of the EU agreeing to that. I’m sure he knows that (at least I bloody well hope he knows that because it’s bleeding obvious to anyone who studies the issue in any detail). That’s why I said that this isn’t really a credible Brexit stance.
Yes, of course, the more sensible approach to other European agreements and agencies is infinitely preferable to the idiocy of May’s approach, but that’s a pretty low standard by which to judge anyone.
But as I said before, this isn’t about Brexit. It’s about the next GE and it might well work.
Aye, and you also attacked Corbyn before as a poor leader because he wouldn't be able to put aside his principles to achieve power....politicians eh.
But of course you are right it is not aimed as negotiating stance to the EU (how could it be, he's not the one in negotiations) but at a domestic audience to show he is a credible leader. The CBI seem to like it, so there you are, Labour the party of business.
I am not so sure that any future GE is a guarantee for Labour tho. There were a lot of leave voters on the radio and tv saying he had betrayed them. He needs to win a few of them round first.
Ldr
In fairness, both main political parties are in horrendous situations.
Tory supporters are overwhelmingly and vehemently anti-EU. So May has little option (if she wants to remain leader) but to play to that. As does anyone else in the Tory party who has leadership pretensions. Whether May or Johnson or Rees-Mogg or whoever actually understand how economically disastrous a hard Brexit will be is irrelevant. They couldn’t argue for a soft-Brexit anyway because there party would have them.
Corbyn’s situation is even tougher. 1/3rd of Labour supporters are anti-EU. 2/3rds are strongly pro-EU. But he needs all of them to have a chance of winning power. Oh aye,and he himself has been strongly against the EU throughout his political lifetime. But the majority of his Parliamentary colleagues are pro-EU. So, despite having won the leadership as a straight-talking politician with strong beliefs who doesn’t engage in grubby stuff like dissembling and avoiding the core of issues he’s...well, dissembling and avoiding the core issue.
I don’t massively blame either of them. That’s what politics is. It’s not noble. It’s not pure. Unfortunately it IS necessary to act this way if you are going to be able to attain and remain in power to do the things you actually believe in.
What did Sir Martin Donnely say... Brexit is like giving up a 3 course meal for the promise of a packet of crisps.... I don’t think he's far wrong either, but I do wonder how many of those leave voters will enjoy their crisps.
What did Sir Martin Donnely say... Brexit is like giving up a 3 course meal for the promise of a packet of crisps.... I don’t think he's far wrong either, but I do wonder how many of those leave voters will enjoy their crisps.
They'll say but at least we get to choose what flavour crisps we have and that's more important than having a full belly. :silly:
I'll see your Liam Fox and raise it with Boris Johnson believing the Irish border is like the London congestion charge zone!
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson_uk_5a952465e4b02cb368c56016?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage
I know it seems a daft idea, but I would PMSL if We saw a United Eire come out of all this.
I'm going to make a prediction...we'll end up getting a Preference Agreement - which has always been the most likely outcome of anything over and above a straight Brexit from Day 1. The government will claim it's a Free Trade agreement (which it's not), Labour will claim it's a Customs Union (which it's not), they'll disagree with each other about what it is; and the public will make all sorts of weird claims about what it is because the vast majority of them don't have a real clue what a Preference Agreement, a Free Trade Agreement or a Customs Union really are.
I'm going to make a prediction...we'll end up getting a Preference Agreement - which has always been the most likely outcome of anything over and above a straight Brexit from Day 1. The government will claim it's a Free Trade agreement (which it's not), Labour will claim it's a Customs Union (which it's not), they'll disagree with each other about what it is; and the public will make all sorts of weird claims about what it is because the vast majority of them don't have a real clue what a Preference Agreement, a Free Trade Agreement or a Customs Union really are.
There certainly is a huge misunderstanding about the Customs Union and the Single Market. As you correctly pointed out the other day, if we stayed in the CU (or formed a new one with the EU) there is still the likelihood that some form of border checks would be needed if we left the SM.
Admittedly the checks would probably be on the Irish side, at the behest of the EU.
This is beyond parody.
This!
https://www.liamfox.co.uk/news/dr-fox-mail-sunday
From Liam Fox’s own bleeding website!
An article of his from 2012. Get past the throwaway comments on why he hates the EU (because the evil bas**rds insist on regulations to protect workers against exploration and to reduce pollution).
Go to the fourth last paragraph and see what he says, on his own website, is the sort of relationship that we should have with the EU.
... and all the while the propper uppers (DUP) of the Tories will be waiting to drop them if they dont get what THEY want (AGAIN)
It just stinks and can be sorted to a degree by implementing PR of some sort. See First Pie Chart
https://twitter.com/MakeVotesMatter (https://twitter.com/MakeVotesMatter)
Hope the DUP give back the massive Grant they were given to "save " the Tories if they DO dump them cos it might go some way to helping the NHS and/or other good causes
Sportyrover, If that did happen the last people to be pissing themselves would be the E.U.
They would have a civil war on their hands within six months and no British army or undercover agents to help them out.
According to some, it's going to be that bad we're gonna need food banks.
According to some, it's going to be that bad we're gonna need food banks.
I take it the big sticks are for Whacking any 'Urchin' they may have encountered?
Maybe....
(https://i.imgur.com/RkieBXH.jpg)
Back to the future with BREXIT.
Probs not BST but the media in this country is yet another issue to face.
There is a good piece in todays Guardian on who and what may be to blame for Brexit and the chaos it is proving to be. From Thatcher's deindustrialisation, to Blair's open door immigration via 'cultural dementia' the playing fields of Eton and the Dam Busters!Thanks Wilts, well worth reading
Worth a read (whether you agree with it or not)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/03/brexit-immigration-jobs-eton-europe
The election in Italy appears to be another blow to the EU and it's superstate ambitions
The election in Italy appears to be another blow to the EU and it's superstate ambitions
I don't see how it's going to affect the EU, neither of the biggest parties have campaigned to leave it.
Are you thinking of any 'superstate ambitions' in particular that you think have been thwarted or is that just a buzzphrase you've chucking into the mix?
How do you know they haven't shown any sign of doing it?
Do you agree with Rees-Mogg that the document is a punishment plan BB?
If so what should it say so 'they don't get away with making an example of us as a deterrent'?
Mr Umunna, a leading supporter of the pro-EU Open Britain campaign, said: "The EU's leaked position paper underlines one thing: all the proposed transition does is push the cliff-edge out a little bit further.
"Transition increasingly looks less like building a bridge and more like being made to walk the plank. We should not leave the EU until we know where we are going."
Do you agree with Rees-Mogg that the document is a punishment plan BB?
If so what should it say so 'they don't get away with making an example of us as a deterrent'?
I've already shared a link about 10 posts up BST. Scrutinise that if you like.
By the way. That link I posted earlier of Rees-Mogg pushing a story from The S*n claiming that many things will cost less when we leave the CU.
The S*n has accepted that EVERY SINGLE FIGURE was exaggerated. They have deleted their tweet and will be publishing an apology in the paper.
Hundreds of people have contacted Rees-Mogg asking him to delete his tweet and post an apology for misleading the thousands of people who read and re-tweeted his post.
He hasn’t done so.
That’s the measure of the man.
If you’re interested, this is a simple explanation why the figures that The S*n posted and Rees-Mogg propagated are total b*llocks.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StevePeers/status/968775024017625088
Now, I only mentioned Mogg after another one of your disciples suggested that if there had been any signs of the EU making an example of the UK for Brexit, "that mouthpiece Rees-Smugg would be instantly jumping up and down bleating about it". Alas, when I produced some evidence that he was, it was rejected!
If Churchill was alive today he'd be turning in his grave.
Bentley Bullet and Filo perhaps as they are dedicated disciples of Brexit, Rees- Mogg and the Sun , once I would have said Sprotyrover but the penny seems to have dropped judging by recent posts - welcome to Project Reality .
The Project that keeps on giving ......or perhaps takes away !
Bentley Bullet and Filo perhaps as they are dedicated disciples of Brexit, Rees- Mogg and the Sun , once I would have said Sprotyrover but the penny seems to have dropped judging by recent posts - welcome to Project Reality .
The Project that keeps on giving ......or perhaps takes away !
I would n't wipe my arse with the Sun, and Rees- Mogg is a cock, but it's the insulting jibes like yours that sometimes harden peoples stance, you can't make a post without having a pop because someone disagrees with you
Bentley Bullet and Filo perhaps as they are dedicated disciples of Brexit, Rees- Mogg and the Sun , once I would have said Sprotyrover but the penny seems to have dropped judging by recent posts - welcome to Project Reality .
The Project that keeps on giving ......or perhaps takes away !
SelbyAre they enjoying a boom! In Italy?
I’m sure it’s a combination of people feeling left behind in some cases and concerns about immigration in other cases. I said back in 2010 when Austerity started that this was a very dangerous game. Depressing people’s living standards for a long time does make people, understandably, want to hit out. It’s happened throughout history and it was utterly predictable.
But I’m baffled by you saying that you’d now vote Leave out of principle. What principle is that? Surely you accept that all the main arguments put forward by the Leave campaign have been shown to be based on lies? No one credible now claims that we’re going to be better off. The very head of the Leave campaign has gone on record stating that the £350m lie was central to Leave winning. The economic hit that the Remain side predicted is already happening. Our economic growth has fallen behind that of almost every developed country since June 2016, with the rest of the world enjoying a boom. Inflation has gone up, as predicted. The Irish problem has proved to be every bit as tough as the Remain side predicted. The Govt has said that there is not going to be a substantive change to immigration policies over the foreseeable future.
What principle would you be defending by changing your vote?
Is there any positivity to be taken from this?
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2018/01/economist-explains-8
Year-on-year GDP growth for the OECD area accelerated to 2.6% in the third quarter of 2017, compared with 2.4% in the previous quarter. The United Kingdom recorded the slowest growth (1.5%) among the Major Seven economies, slipping from second highest in mid-2016.
The global economy has also helped. The Brexit vote coincided with the beginning of the first worldwide economic upswing in years. Global trade volumes have grown decently, despite Donald Trump’s scary rhetoric. Firms from Seattle to Shanghai have recovered some of their animal spirits and are willing to invest once again. Britain, an economy highly dependent on international trade, has been swept along with everyone else.
Wilts, what are your views on the positive statements such as house prices are steady, unemployment has dropped, recession has been avoided?
Sproty
Relative to us, yes they are. Their recent, current and projected near-future GDP growth figures are all higher than ours.
Wilts, what are your views on the positive statements such as house prices are steady, unemployment has dropped, recession has been avoided?
I am happy about it (although the stats last week about the fall in house price and all the job losses since Christmas are worrying). What are your views Bentley on the author's opinion that those measures and the economy in general is at risk by an no deal Brexit?
BB
And so we go round the hamster wheel again.
Our GDP growth rate has dropped by about 1% since the Brexit vote. The growth rate of the other OECD countries has risen by over 1%. Had the rest of the world not experienced a boom and led to an unexpected increase in global economic activity from which we have benefitted, we WOULD have slipped into recession.
You’re not thick, but this now must be 5 or 6 times that I’ve made this point to you and you’ve never once addressed it. You just come back with variations on the same argument every time.
You’re really not thick but you are doing a good job of trying to convince me that you are so I’ll break it down into really simple steps.
1) Before June 2016, the overwhelming majority of economists predicted that a Brexit vote would lead to a significant weakening in economic performance compared to that of other countries.
2) The given the then state of the world economy, the conclusion was that we would therefore tip into recession.
3) After the Brexit vote we’ve had a significant weakening in economic performance. Our GDP growth rate has dropped by about 1% compared to what it was in early 2016 whilst the growth rate in EVERY OTHER one of the OECD Big 7 has increased and average OECD growth rate has gone up by about 1%.
4) The fact that the world economy (apart from us) is hitting a boom has prevented us from tipping into outright recession.
5) But, our economy which was doing reasonably well in 2015/16 now has a growth rate which is 41st out of the 44 richest countries in the world.
6) Consequently, whilst we’re not in a technical recession, we are missing out on the boom that the rest of the world is experiencing and we are getting progressively poorer compared to almost every other developed nation in the world. Just as the economists predicted we would.
Gaping hole in the EU budget? Even by your standards of overinflating our importance, that’s a spectacularly daft comment.
Our net contribution for 2017 according to the ONS works out at about £8bn.
The GDP of the EU minus the U.K. was about £12trillion.
So our contribution was about 0.06-0.07% of the EU’s total output.
Put it another way, our contribution equates to about half the price of a packet of chewing gum per week for every person in the EU. (Population of EU minus UK is about 450million. £8bn/450million/52 week=34p per person per week.)
Put it yet another way, since the Brexit vote, the EU economy has grown by about 0.5% per year faster than ours. That 0.5% per year over 21 months equates to about 13 times our annual net contribution. (0.5% x £12tr x 21/12 = £105bn.) Just from the extra growth that they’ve had over and above our economy.
I suspect they’ll cope.
Put the graphs away and start reading the news!
Sproty you clearly know more about this than I do so a question for you.I doubt British companies would benefit, Leo 2 tanks are German ,we produce Apcs under licence,Raptors from the US seem to the the flavour of the day. Except for France who have their own Military Aircraft builder in Dasault.as for the stuff needed to patrol the south it would be Italy and France that would be building light Patrol asserts.
This extra defence and green policy spending by the EU governments - where is it going to be spent? For example is there more or less likelihood that British defence companies will benefit from this £30 billion once we have left the EU?
Wilts why would I feel the need to read a 250 page tome on a subject I already am expert in.
So we get £400 million per annum for public research, where did you get the assumption from that the uk Government would not be honouring such grant post Brexit?
Auckley
Serious question. You voted Remain out of fear. Fear of what?
NNK. What 'truth' paper do you read?
NNK. What 'truth' paper do you read?
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Go on then. I’ll have a weary sigh and ask what this pro-EU bias is at the BBC?
Thanks for thinking I am not stupid then Red J, I have looked at the facts, have decided that another vote is stupid, and against the democratic standing of this country, and will vote out the next time instead of in, if a completely undemocratic vote is taken, which it will not.
Face it Glynn, there won't be one, a short transitional period for the big hitters to get their house in order, and that's it, out into the big new world.
It just shows a bit of positivity and suggests that things may not be so bad. Hammond says the UK economy had reached a turning point and there is light at the end of the tunnel.
OBR chief Robert Chote said: "Overall the referendum vote does seem to have weakened the economy as we and most other forecasters expected, but not quite as much as we forecast back in November 2016.
Do you know what we need Billy? We need someone with some B0llocks. Someone like Winnie. Not Winnie the Pooh (Corbyn), Winnie the Churchill.
Do you know what we need Billy? We need someone with some B0llocks. Someone like Winnie. Not Winnie the Pooh (Corbyn), Winnie the Churchill.
A man who was in favour of a United States of Europe? (which I'm fairly sure has actually been pointed out and ignored further back in the thread).
The last thing I want is to see JC in No 10..... now that would be a calamity for the country.
Nobody really knows how Britain will fair post Brexit and if you rolled out 100 'experts' you would inevitably find they all had differing opinions - and therefore many would be wrong.
Brexit may mean that we will all be poorer in monetary terms, but perhaps we will become richer as a nation...
If we listened to experts all the time we'd be in the economic union! Experts arnt higher level beings, their prone to naval gazing and get upperty^^^^^^when there wisdom isnt obeyed.
Best informed yes, but when dealing in predicting that's all they are, not factual! In fact they were wrong on the vote and its immediate consequences.
No BST, unfortunately, I haven't been invited to any of the talks.
Now then, of all those Farage appearances, how many times has the panel, and audience been set up to alienate him? 32?
And, how many times has Farage appeared since the EU referendum? Twice?
Do you know what we need Billy? We need someone with some B0llocks. Someone like Winnie. Not Winnie the Pooh (Corbyn), Winnie the Churchill.
A man who was in favour of a United States of Europe? (which I'm fairly sure has actually been pointed out and ignored further back in the thread).
I was thinking more of the man who had some boll0cks and who would never surrender to unfair demands, even in a United States of Europe.
Metalmicky.
It's comments like that why we're in the mess we're in*. The fact you display an unfaltering faith that you have the ability to predict the future of a Corbyn government but a complete absence of faith in the future predictions of experts. It displays a failure of people in my profession (academia) to engage, and displays a complete lack of understanding on your part on what 'experts' are. They aren't a sea of individuals making stabs in the dark about the future (in fact, when they do they get called out heavily). It works on things like consensus, collaborative work, rigour, peer-review, extremely stringent ethical procedures, criticism, an enduring openness, and an often unrewarding motivation to analyse things that others don't.
IF you want to disregard and disrespect those things in society then let me tell you we will be a lot poorer, rather than your stab in the dark about Corbyn. But as someone who also worked briefly in the civil service for one of the UK governments, let me tell you 99% of all policies are thankfully taken on evidence and reason and following the guidance of experts.
Your last sentence about becoming 'richer as nation', it's hard for me to comprehend how a crazy vote that's split the nation bang down the middle and created enduring rifts is, or will make us, any richer.
* And by mess I partly mean brexit but also the austerity killing public services and leaving large sections of this country behind the SE
The last thing I want is to see JC in No 10..... now that would be a calamity for the country.
Nobody really knows how Britain will fair post Brexit and if you rolled out 100 'experts' you would inevitably find they all had differing opinions - and therefore many would be wrong.
Brexit may mean that we will all be poorer in monetary terms, but perhaps we will become richer as a nation...
100 economists? Pah! How about 639?
That’s the number that we’re polled a month before the vote. Here’s what they said.
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/economists-views-brexit
88% of them said that a Leave vote would lead to a hit in the economy over the subsequent 5 years. We’re nearly 2 years into that 5 years and it’s panning out just like they said.
I am genuinely astonished where this near-hatred for expert opinion comes from. They HAVE called it right and there AREN’T major difference of opinion amongst them. Why are people so determined to ignore this?
Do you know what we need Billy? We need someone with some B0llocks. Someone like Winnie. Not Winnie the Pooh (Corbyn), Winnie the Churchill.
A man who was in favour of a United States of Europe? (which I'm fairly sure has actually been pointed out and ignored further back in the thread).
I was thinking more of the man who had some boll0cks and who would never surrender to unfair demands, even in a United States of Europe.
Sorry Bentley but just for clarity which unfair demands are you referring to?
BB
Trouble is, Churchill was f**king useless when it came to issues relating to the economy, business and finance. His term at the Treasury was one of the most catastrophic of the 20th century. So I’m not sure I’d put a right lot of faith in him to know his arse from his elbow in negotiations about our future economic relations with Europe.
Wilts, I don't know whether or not there have been any. I haven't been present in the talks! I reckon there's a possibility that there could be unfair demands though, such as silly settlement figures, if we had a weak negotiator.
I said Winnie (The Churchill) wouldn't put up with any of that, and his sheer presence would have deterred any attempts to do so.
I reckon Churchill wouldn't have stood for any demands he deemed unfair even if he had taken us into a United States of Europe, and he would conduct Brexit talks in the same way.
As far as BBC bias, do you watch Question Time?
MM, I could write a long response addressing point by point but won't in the interest of it not degenerating.
It's very much the opposite mate, any 'expert' in their field who tightly follows the principles I listed in my first post will not be making predictions about the future. They very much deal with the past because that's where the evidence comes from.
I'm getting the impression that what you imagine is there is 100 experts in a room and a certain percentage will be saying different things to the rest and therefore you should by cynical of the whole lot? But that's really not how it works either, it works on consensus; paradigms that they all broadly agree on barring the fine points.
Part of the problem is this figure of the 'expert' created by the media is filled by the kind of the ideologically driven 'research' that people like David Keighley (few pages earlier) produce. You're never gunna hear a reasoned expert discussing the pros and cons because they don't want it.
on the civil service - as a young man I was probably very much anti-bureaucracy but as I get older I increasingly find myself thinking thank f**k they are there.
I reckon Churchill wouldn't have stood for any demands he deemed unfair even if he had taken us into a United States of Europe, and he would conduct Brexit talks in the same way.
As far as BBC bias, do you watch Question Time?
Yes I do religiously and pull my hair out at the consistent audience and panel bias for Leave . Even in a heavily Remain constituency area we seem to have the same old rabid Brexiters shouting down those Remainers even prepared to put their head up over the parapet.
It makes me seethe with anger to see " big hitters " from the Leave side pitted against " weak at best" Remainers on his selected panel. Week after week we get this , last week was a perfect example where in a heavy Remain constituency of Westminster - they barely discussed Brexit .
I take it you look at the carefully crafted but hugely biased vids on the Express/ Mail online to cement this impression in your mind further. They are wholly unrepresentative of the debate in general and infuriating .
Finally what annoys me most is that you see it as a pro- Remain programme is the propaganda online in the Mail/ Express etc that effective ?
I reckon Churchill wouldn't have stood for any demands he deemed unfair even if he had taken us into a United States of Europe, and he would conduct Brexit talks in the same way.
As far as BBC bias, do you watch Question Time?
Yes I do religiously and pull my hair out at the consistent audience and panel bias for Leave . Even in a heavily Remain constituency area we seem to have the same old rabid Brexiters shouting down those Remainers even prepared to put their head up over the parapet.
It makes me seethe with anger to see " big hitters " from the Leave side pitted against " weak at best" Remainers on his selected panel. Week after week we get this , last week was a perfect example where in a heavy Remain constituency of Westminster - they barely discussed Brexit .
I take it you look at the carefully crafted but hugely biased vids on the Express/ Mail online to cement this impression in your mind further. They are wholly unrepresentative of the debate in general and infuriating .
Finally what annoys me most is that you see it as a pro- Remain programme is the propaganda online in the Mail/ Express etc that effective ?
Yet again, Hoola, you take it wrong.
Hoola, I wasn't being rude when I said you'd taken it wrong regarding your suggestion that I get my BBC Brexit bias info from the Mail/Express. I was merely correcting you because, although those tabloids do claim BBC pro-EU bias, I couldn't use their examples in this forum because they would simply be disregarded as lies.
It's a pity really that my personal opinion can't be accepted as just that, but it seems that until I can show links as evidence of several other like-minded people who share my observations, my opinion is disrespected, sometimes to the point of ridicule. Rude even!
In an attempt at evidence that will be accepted as proof that my personal opinion is shared, here's a link. I won't hold my breath.
http://bbccomplaints.com/
MM
I replied to BB in a similar theme a couple of days ago. There are certain things that are simply too complicated for economists to predict. Other things are relatively easy.
No one predicted the 2007/08 crash. Some people claim they saw something coming but there’s no prediction that really stacks up. That’s because it was due to a fiendishly complex set of circumstances. The key complexity was how the shadow banking system had taken in far more risk than anyone properly understood, and how vulnerable it was to a loss of confidence caused by the collapse of the American housing bubble. Even then, the crash would not have been anything like as severe as it was if the US Govt had bailed out Lehman Brothers. Letting them go bust opened up the trap door under the confidence that was supporting the whole banking system.
No one could have predicted the systemic effect of that because the interplay of effects was too poorly understood and too complex. Many people were worried about the housing bubble but there have been many bubbles which have deflated without crippling the global financial system.
The effect of Brexit is totally different. Academic economists understand very well the effect of open or closed trading arrangements on countries’ economies. This is nowhere near as complex an issue or as dimly understood an issue as the factors that led to the Great Crash. So they can relatively accurately model the effect of us choosing to make it harder to trade with 450million generally wealthy people on our doorstep.
Here’s an analogy. Trying to predict the outcome of the global economy is like trying to predict the result of a football match between two very well matched sides. Every pundit will have an opinion, but none of them really know. There are too many interacting variables to accurately predict the outcome.
Predicting the effect of Brexit is like trying to predict the result of a long distance race between a bunch of well matched runners, but where one of the runners has chosen to hang a 1kg weight round his waist. You can’t predict exactly what time that runner will do, but you can be fairly certain that they’ll be slower than they would have been without the weight.
So it is with Brexit. Yes there will be some uncertainty. Yes the models will give different answers. Yes the precise outcome will depend on what arrangements we can get with other trading partners. But even taking all those things into account, pretty much every expert expected and still expects the effect of Brexit to be profoundly negative on our economy.
And unfortunately, we’re in the middle of seeing those predictions come true. Believe me, I wish with all my heart that they were wrong because I’m f**ked if I want my kids growing up in the sort of country that we are going to be when we realise what we’ve pissed away and start looking for someone to blame.
MM
It’s all sorted because of the following:
1) May, under pressure from Johnson, Fox, Rees-Mogg etc decided back in January that Brexit meant we have to leave the Single Market and Customs Union. (Note: On Liam Fox’s own website there is a blog article written by him before the vote saying that what we need led to do was leave the EU but stay in the SM and CU - your guess is as good as mine why he’s changed his mind.)
2) May, Johnson etc all claim that we can do this and still have as easy a trading relationship with the EU as we had before.
3) Nobody actually believes that. Why on earth would the EU allow us alone to drop out of all the obligations and responsibilities of the SM and CU while still keeping all the benefits? It’s infantile to even think that the other EU nations would accept that. One EU negotiator summed it up. He said Davis was acting like someone who wanted to be invited to a wife-swapping party without having to bring his wife.
So it’s is US who have decided to make our economic life harder. Or rather it’s a small group of Tory MPs who are all jockeying for the top jobs who are playing with the future of the rest of us. And we’re told this is the Will of the People.
Sproty.
Maybe...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-43414145
You’re way off the mark on exports by the way. You really out to read more widely.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/denmarks-top-10-exports/
Sproty
Right. Fingers out and ready to count on them.
You reckon 9% of Denmark’s GDP is made up of exports of food to us? Really?
Their total exports of EVERYTHING to EVERYBODY in 2026 was 30% of GDP ($93bn out of a GDP of $306). Exports to the U.K. made up 8.1% of that 30%. So EVERYTHING they exported to us rotted up to 2.5% of their GDP. Of that everything, all foodstuffs totted up to 25%. So their total foodstuff export to the U.K. is about 0.6% of GDP.
Even for a Little Englander like you Sproty, that’s a bit of an over estimate of the importance of the U.K.
Yeah but how much bacon do you eat?I like it but it's usually a once a week treat. Yorkshire ham now that's a different story,and Black Forest ham,Spanish Jambon etc, most German and Polish pork products!
Right. Only if bacon exports to us made up 9% of Danish GDP, I reckon that would mean we imported off them about 1500 rashers per year for every man woman and child in the U.K.I notice you did a bit of cherry picking with your reply Billy, just been watching the Danish Primeminister on the News they are a bit worried about their fishing industry by all accounts but not yours!
Now, I like a fry up, but there’s limits. And anyway, everybody knows that half the population here now are Muslims, so summation doesn’t really stack up.
Hoola, I wasn't being rude when I said you'd taken it wrong regarding your suggestion that I get my BBC Brexit bias info from the Mail/Express. I was merely correcting you because, although those tabloids do claim BBC pro-EU bias, I couldn't use their examples in this forum because they would simply be disregarded as lies.
It's a pity really that my personal opinion can't be accepted as just that, but it seems that until I can show links as evidence of several other like-minded people who share my observations, my opinion is disrespected, sometimes to the point of ridicule. Rude even!
In an attempt at evidence that will be accepted as proof that my personal opinion is shared, here's a link. I won't hold my breath.
http://bbccomplaints.com/
Hoola
Interesting point regarding your daughter.
My daughter is a trained nurse. I'm encouraging her to move to Australia as due to this ridiculous decision this country is f***ed. If I was younger I'd be off too.
Sproty.
Maybe...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-43414145
You’re way off the mark on exports by the way. You really out to read more widely.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/denmarks-top-10-exports/
Sproty.
Maybe...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-43414145
You’re way off the mark on exports by the way. You really out to read more widely.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/denmarks-top-10-exports/
Billy I have conducted my own macro economic study of the Danish economy As through experience I gravely doubt the veracity of the Graphs and figures you pull out of your Top Hat? Food, dairy, meat and fish products make up 18.7% of Denmarks gross National product, half of which goes to the uk.
The Danes guestimate the damage to those exports could be in the region of 48%.in particular the Fishing industry could lose 85% of its catch as a worst case scenario and 50% in a best case.
Now in my book loosing 9% of your economy and 85% of your fishing catch is a big risk.
Particularly when you look to the colossus immediately south of Denmark, which is 24 times larger, counting The German language Countries/regions of Austria, Switzerland,Lichtenstein,and Slovenia.Alsace and Lorraine.
I was just wondering why Denmark?
Sproty
Right. Fingers out and ready to count on them.
You reckon 9% of Denmark’s GDP is made up of exports of food to us? Really?
Their total exports of EVERYTHING to EVERYBODY in 2026 was 30% of GDP ($93bn out of a GDP of $306). Exports to the U.K. made up 8.1% of that 30%. So EVERYTHING they exported to us rotted up to 2.5% of their GDP. Of that everything, all foodstuffs totted up to 25%. So their total foodstuff export to the U.K. is about 0.6% of GDP.
Even for a Little Englander like you Sproty, that’s a bit of an over estimate of the importance of the U.K.
I am a Yorkshireman,British and proud to be so!
Hoola, I wasn't being rude when I said you'd taken it wrong regarding your suggestion that I get my BBC Brexit bias info from the Mail/Express. I was merely correcting you because, although those tabloids do claim BBC pro-EU bias, I couldn't use their examples in this forum because they would simply be disregarded as lies.
It's a pity really that my personal opinion can't be accepted as just that, but it seems that until I can show links as evidence of several other like-minded people who share my observations, my opinion is disrespected, sometimes to the point of ridicule. Rude even!
In an attempt at evidence that will be accepted as proof that my personal opinion is shared, here's a link. I won't hold my breath.
http://bbccomplaints.com/
Incidentally I accept there was a pro - Remain bias ( apart from the knob from RT) on the panel tonight - and despite this being in a Brexit constituency ( 62% voted for Brexit and a similar % in Kent as a whole ) . However I didn't feel the usual hostility , booing etc as I have witnessed before ......Is the mood changing and what's more is the reality of a possible 29 mile tail- back snaking it's way through Kent sharpening people's brains ? Of course Chris Grayling said that " the UK will wave vehicles through and that won't happen " - don't we want control of our borders any longer ?
Moreover he seemed to indicate that similar things would happen between N.ireland and Eire ? It gets stranger by the minute , I was waiting for him to get a far packet out to explain his workings out !!
Billy, I cannot see what all the fuss is over the Irish border, when the Isle of Man and the Channel Isles are not considered as part of the territory of the EU. but have no internal borders, and neither imposes VAT on goods.
No and no.
By the way, this shiws much more clearly what I was ranting on about this afternoon. That the was no clarity whatsoever about the kind of Brexit that was voted for.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/974373411165270017
Glyn, They are crown dependencies, unlike Gibraltar the C.I & the I.O.M. are not part of the territory of the EU. However protocol 3 of the 1972 treaty of accession provides for their treatment as if they were in the customs union for free movement of industrial goods and agricultural produce, and for equal treatment of all union citizens within their jurisdictions.
However,Eu legislation in many other areas, such as free movement of people and services, competition, and taxation policies, and the operation of structural funds does not apply to the IOM and the CI, nor are they represented in the European Parliament.
As a result of these arrangements Jersey and Guernsey have chosen not to introduce VAT, the former levying a domestic 3% domestic sales tax , and the latter nothing at all.
Which rather makes a nonsense of the EU stance the integrity of the market.
By the way, this shiws much more clearly what I was ranting on about this afternoon. That the was no clarity whatsoever about the kind of Brexit that was voted for.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/974373411165270017
There isn't a clear position there at all. I can understand the argument for the SM but the CU was left vaguely open and rarely if ever mentioned.
By the way, this shiws much more clearly what I was ranting on about this afternoon. That the was no clarity whatsoever about the kind of Brexit that was voted for.ñjThere isn't a clear position there at all. I can understand the argument for the SM but the CU was left vaguely open and rarely if ever mentioned.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/974373411165270017
Probably because people (including the politicians who are supposed to know better) conflate the two as if they were the same thing.
So we (UK) have no solution to the Irish border issue and we’ve kicked it into the long grass by agreeing to the EU backstop solution which May, Reed-Mogg and the DUP have said is absolutely unacceptable.
Massive problem deferred.
So we (UK) have no solution to the Irish border issue and we’ve kicked it into the long grass by agreeing to the EU backstop solution which May, Reed-Mogg and the DUP have said is absolutely unacceptable.
Massive problem deferred.
Still the BBC and other commentators ''spin'' this garbage like it's a hard-won deal .
So we (UK) have no solution to the Irish border issue and we’ve kicked it into the long grass by agreeing to the EU backstop solution which May, Reed-Mogg and the DUP have said is absolutely unacceptable.
Massive problem deferred.
Still the BBC and other commentators ''spin'' this garbage like it's a hard-won deal .
The BBC aren't spinning it, they're just reporting the spin others have put on it.
So we (UK) have no solution to the Irish border issue and we’ve kicked it into the long grass by agreeing to the EU backstop solution which May, Reed-Mogg and the DUP have said is absolutely unacceptable.
Massive problem deferred.
Still the BBC and other commentators ''spin'' this garbage like it's a hard-won deal .
The BBC aren't spinning it, they're just reporting the spin others have put on it.
You mean their own political reporters Glyn - perhaps it's me I must be stupid .
As I see it - little seems resolved and as Billy said earlier a total fudge now if the BBC can't or won't see through what DD is putting out then someone should be asking why ?
So we (UK) have no solution to the Irish border issue and we’ve kicked it into the long grass by agreeing to the EU backstop solution which May, Reed-Mogg and the DUP have said is absolutely unacceptable.
Massive problem deferred.
Still the BBC and other commentators ''spin'' this garbage like it's a hard-won deal .
The BBC aren't spinning it, they're just reporting the spin others have put on it.
You mean their own political reporters Glyn - perhaps it's me I must be stupid .
As I see it - little seems resolved and as Billy said earlier a total fudge now if the BBC can't or won't see through what DD is putting out then someone should be asking why ?
Nobody on Daily Politics said anything other than it solved nothing. I don't know what BBC output you were watching.
The BBC has a generation of very poor quality senior editors.
Kuenssberg is very lightweight as Political Editor. More interested in politics as a clever chess game than really delving into detail. Kamal Ahmed as Economics Editor is utterly f**king useless. Ive got no professional reason to be particularly interested in economic debates but I am interested as an amateur observer. And it’s clear that he has either little comprehension of the key issues in economics today, or is utterly unable to communicate them to laypeople. He trots out the worst trite comments and still drones on about the importance of the deficit, years after the economic debate onbtat was settled.
I don't think I'm being harsh at all , my only surprise is that both the Brexiters and the BBC seemed to push this idea that there should be room for negotiation on a number of issues . Why i dont know and why Rees- mogg and other members were trying to force issues on what was purely a Transitional period rather than anything that was up for being altered i just dont understand .
Art 50 clearly states that this period should be granted by the other members if they felt fit and could agree that it was in their interests to grant it to the UK , therefore nothing was up for grabs this " Implementation " claptrap always was designed to infer something different entirely I.e. you are implementing different arrangements than previously existed before the invokation of Art 50.
It was a clever use of language designed to breathe more life into this group of ardent Brexiters , the BBC should have called it out from day 1 - they didn't hence the stupidity of Farage and JRM on HMS Brexit today along with the extensive and most bizarre coverage that went along with it. Instead all we kept hearing about was the " selling out of fishermen " - if they felt sold out it was because this Govt. along with the BBC continued to peddle the line that something else could be implemented .
Frankly we haven't really resolved many issues that I am aware of since the negotiations started. I get the feeling that the EU are sick to the back teeth of it all now and want to move on
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43581729
Grand eh?
All that bullshit about how leaving the EU would allow our economy to flourish because we could make our own trade agreements with other countries, and here’s Dr Fox telling us that he’s secured a great victory. After Brexit, we’ll keep using the agreements that the EU has already negotiated with 70 countries.
So, we’re going to leave the SM and CU which will make trading far more difficult and less profitable with 450million of the richest people in the world right on our doorstep. But the upside is that we’ll keep trading exactly as we have done before with everyone else.
Any Brexit supporters getting just a little bit nervous that you’ve been had by a bunch of clueless shysters?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43581729
Grand eh?
All that bullshit about how leaving the EU would allow our economy to flourish because we could make our own trade agreements with other countries, and here’s Dr Fox telling us that he’s secured a great victory. After Brexit, we’ll keep using the agreements that the EU has already negotiated with 70 countries.
So, we’re going to leave the SM and CU which will make trading far more difficult and less profitable with 450million of the richest people in the world right on our doorstep. But the upside is that we’ll keep trading exactly as we have done before with everyone else.
Any Brexit supporters getting just a little bit nervous that you’ve been had by a bunch of clueless shysters?
Worth a watch
https://vimeo.com/252854131
And yet, people don't seem to be absolutely livid that they've been completely deceived...
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
Steve, I think that most detractors would say that at times over the years it has been corrupt,dysfunctional and unwieldy rather than evil.
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
So which option would YOU choose Sproty? And how would YOU make it work?
If we can't come to an agreement with the EU and we end up with a hard BREXIT we've still go to pick one of those options - and somehow make it work....
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
So which option would YOU choose Sproty? And how would YOU make it work?
If we can't come to an agreement with the EU and we end up with a hard BREXIT we've still go to pick one of those options - and somehow make it work....
Where there is no way we will make one! (Hannibal at the foot of the Alps)
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
So which option would YOU choose Sproty? And how would YOU make it work?
If we can't come to an agreement with the EU and we end up with a hard BREXIT we've still go to pick one of those options - and somehow make it work....
Where there is no way we will make one! (Hannibal at the foot of the Alps)
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
So which option would YOU choose Sproty? And how would YOU make it work?
If we can't come to an agreement with the EU and we end up with a hard BREXIT we've still go to pick one of those options - and somehow make it work....
Where there is no way we will make one! (Hannibal at the foot of the Alps)
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
So which option would YOU choose Sproty? And how would YOU make it work?
If we can't come to an agreement with the EU and we end up with a hard BREXIT we've still go to pick one of those options - and somehow make it work....
Where there is no way we will make one! (Hannibal at the foot of the Alps)
Genius! Let’s get exports over the Irish border on battle-hardened elephants!
Anybody got Boris’s phone number?
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
So which option would YOU choose Sproty? And how would YOU make it work?
If we can't come to an agreement with the EU and we end up with a hard BREXIT we've still go to pick one of those options - and somehow make it work....
Where there is no way we will make one! (Hannibal at the foot of the Alps)
Genius! Let’s get exports over the Irish border on battle-hardened elephants!
Anybody got Boris’s phone number?
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
Chilled fella don't worry - have a lot invested in all this with my 20 year old going away for a year with a view to living and working in the EU . I just don't want her to be one of the millions ( 5, 000,000 ) whose lives will be made difficult because they work here or we work there. The cost of flights will go up , travel insurance will go up ( EHIC cards no longer valid ) and of course adverse currency fluctuations have not been to the benefit of our citizens finally there's the spectre of visas potentially. Incidentally 80 % of our people living and working in the 27 are of working age contrary to the impression given that they are all retired.
There's a veritable shitstorm looming and soon we will be dragged into the eye of it .
Sproty you sound like some old git that believes nothing will change and we will all be singing " Rule Britannia " in Dr. Liam Fox's choir . Please tell me you don't think like that as im still waiting for you to tell us all about the Brexit " dividend " - you know the reality of all that is going to be well in post- Brexit Britain ?
Meanwhile, back on the Irish Question
Look, there are only 5 options
1. A hard border between the North and South.
2. A hard border between the North and the UK.
3. A technology border between the North and South
4. No border between the North and South, just turn a blind eye to everything
5. The UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market
Come on Leaver Negotiators, it can't be that hard. Pick one.
I can't understand why this is taking so long, I mean, what could possibly go wrong with any of those options?...............
(1) Impossible as breaches the Good Friday Agreement.
(2) Unacrceptable to both the UK and especially the DUP - breaches red lines
(3) Unworkable - in practise breaches WTO Regulations .
(4) Unworkable - again breaches WTO rules and encourages smuggling , gunmen and a return to pre GFA days.
(5) Workable - and the existing system - financially in the interests of all parties.
ONLY (5) works but we have made it clear we no longer want to be in hock to the evil empire that is the ECJ.
We better get a move on before you have a heart attack
Chilled fella don't worry - have a lot invested in all this with my 20 year old going away for a year with a view to living and working in the EU . I just don't want her to be one of the millions ( 5, 000,000 ) whose lives will be made difficult because they work here or we work there. The cost of flights will go up , travel insurance will go up ( EHIC cards no longer valid ) and of course adverse currency fluctuations have not been to the benefit of our citizens finally there's the spectre of visas potentially. Incidentally 80 % of our people living and working in the 27 are of working age contrary to the impression given that they are all retired.
There's a veritable shitstorm looming and soon we will be dragged into the eye of it .
Sproty you sound like some old git that believes nothing will change and we will all be singing " Rule Britannia " in Dr. Liam Fox's choir . Please tell me you don't think like that as im still waiting for you to tell us all about the Brexit " dividend " - you know the reality of all that is going to be well in post- Brexit Britain ?
Hoola
How does your mind work, I am willing to chance the jump off of beach head for the long term protection of my country, I don't care about the short term economic hit, mark my words in 10 years time there will be extreme Govt sin Italy Germany and France , because they can't Secure the southern border.
We will be far better off and I don't give a dam if we have another million migrants in the country, they will be the ones we want, not the ones dumped on us by failed Policies in other Eu states.
You on the other hand a totally against change , you are deeply entrenched in your Luddite beliefs that this Brexit will end in distater and as you freely admit your own self interest.
Who are the migrants we want? The ones propping up the NHS, who are currently f**king off in high numbers? What about the ones who work in the fields, propping up the farming industry? Who's going to replace them?
By the way, it's been pointed out many times that we CAN refuse immigrants if we want to. Any EU state can refuse anyone right of residence if we deem them to be a burden on the member state. Look it up - its written down in EU law and everything! We're already letting in the ones we want. So why are we jumping off the beachhead again?
Am I right in saying that the UK refuses only a tiny fraction of EU nationals who want to come here because it has to have very good grounds to do so, and in the case of criminality, for example, a conviction even for a serious crime is not good enough unless the individual poses a current risk?
"For stays of over three months: the right of residence is subject to certain conditions. EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period."
Apologies. I mis-read your post. Out of interest, are there examples of rapists being allowed into the country?
Apologies. I mis-read your post. Out of interest, are there examples of rapists being allowed into the country?
Don't be silly there are thousands of them and murderers and loads more committing the most heinous of crimes.
Apologies. I mis-read your post. Out of interest, are there examples of rapists being allowed into the country?Yes we have let dozens an dozens in , mainly hardened criminals from the Baltic states.
Billy it was the case of Victor Domboskis in 2006.
Billy it was the case of Victor Domboskis in 2006.
Sproty there are upwards of 3,000,000 of these furriners here at any one time and you have as your statistic 1 child rapist from Lithuania. Whilst this man and his crimes were horrendous are you seriously saying there are hundreds more in the country already ? Not doubting your sincerity and fear about this but who says that there are " 20/30,000 " hardened criminals awaiting return " ? If so why the f**k haven't we been doing our jobs here.
That's a serious amount of bad boys and girls !
Source interview with Queen Margareth of Denmark re her book, she showed a Saxo instituent i.e. Distinct change in attitude towards the immigrants in Denmark who now make up 8% of the population, example 11% of Somali males have acquired a criminal conviction since their arrival in Denmark, compared to the national average conviction rate for Danish men which is 1.29% figure provide by the Danish ministry for intergration,
If I were you Hoola I would be very worried about my vulnerable daughter going to live in Denmark!
Billy it was the case of Victor Domboskis in 2006.
Sproty there are upwards of 3,000,000 of these furriners here at any one time and you have as your statistic 1 child rapist from Lithuania. Whilst this man and his crimes were horrendous are you seriously saying there are hundreds more in the country already ? Not doubting your sincerity and fear about this but who says that there are " 20/30,000 " hardened criminals awaiting return " ? If so why the f**k haven't we been doing our jobs here.
That's a serious amount of bad boys and girls !
You're right Hoola all of those foreigners are here and until they get arrested we haven't got a clue as to their antecedents.
And prior to the case of Dombodkis we were doing nothing about checking up on them.
In fact we had peeps turning up on the motorway hard shoulder, being taken to a Police station fingerprinted and then being released and told to make their own way to Liverpool to register.
Hardly a satisfactory state of affairs isn't it, oh and by the way when Have I ever belittled you in a Post?
You didn’t actually give a source for anything you’ve written so far Sproty. I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m sure there are some examples. But Google throws nowt up for Victor Domboskis.
Source interview with Queen Margareth of Denmark re her book, she showed a Saxo instituent i.e. Distinct change in attitude towards the immigrants in Denmark who now make up 8% of the population, example 11% of Somali males have acquired a criminal conviction since their arrival in Denmark, compared to the national average conviction rate for Danish men which is 1.29% figure provide by the Danish ministry for intergration,
If I were you Hoola I would be very worried about my vulnerable daughter going to live in Denmark!
Since I have taken heed of Billy der grafts quest for sources I have been looking at a few, and boy it's all going tits up in Hoola Utopian state of Denmark,a bit like Sweden really.
10 % of the population now immigrants, half of them mainly male from you know where, 3 times more likely to commit crime, the crimes they commit are far more violent in nature. And they are a major drain on the Danish economy .
Happy days ahead for Denmark.
The sooner we leave the better.!
Bentley
Just reflect on this for a moment. Have you ever, at any time before or after the Brexit vote heard anyone from the Remain side say pour scorn on the consensus of opinion from expert economists about what the likely outcome will be?
Then have a think about how many times you’ve heard Brexit supporters claim that we can’t hope to predict what will happen.
Then ask yourself why the two sides have these very different approaches to expert analysis.
Bentley
Just reflect on this for a moment. Have you ever, at any time before or after the Brexit vote heard anyone from the Remain side say pour scorn on the consensus of opinion from expert economists about what the likely outcome will be?
Yes, me, for one.
Then have a think about how many times you’ve heard Brexit supporters claim that we can’t hope to predict what will happen.
Then ask yourself why the two sides have these very different approaches to expert analysis.
Some people don't believe there's such a thing as 'expert' analysis of something that has never happened before. Some do.
Now I've answered you, Billy, perhaps you can answer my question to Wilts which was; surely there will be fewer wanting to come to a country that's on its knees in poverty after Brexit?
Even so, surely they will consider the alternative of relocating to one of the remaining thriving countries still in the EU?
BB
I’ve explained to you times without number that the economic effect has been PRECISELY that indicated by economists. We’re already £60-80bn down as a result of the vote. When I first told you that, you didn’t say ANYTHING about both sides having expected that. You blathered about the effect of the General Election.
When I pointed out that the economic hit had set in well before the election, you went back to saying that we can’t oreduct the effect of Brexit.
When I reiterated that we can and have done, you whined about Osborne predicting a recession.
When I pointed out that we would be in recession if the rest of the world hadn’t gone into an unexpected boom, you said that showed that economists can’t preduct the future.
When I pointed out that opinion betrayed a misunderstanding of how economics works, you said nothing, then later repeated the point about Osborne saying there’s be a recession.
When I then say that you seem more interested in arguing than engaging with a grown up discussion, you say I’m insulting you.
And then you say that BOTH sides said there would be problems, although I doubt anyone would remember Farage on the hustings bellowing “Vote Leave and the UK economy will lose £60-80bn by early 2018.” Maybe I wasn’t paying attention.
Have fun because I’ve got more important shit to deal with than indulge your obtuseness.
And the same economists are predicting that
I think your obtuseness and insistence on arguing for the sake of arguing with no real interest in finding a sensible conclusion is very wearing and depressing. But I’m sure you get something out of it.
BB
And as we’ve discussed a thousand times, there are an infinite number of different ways of leaving. Saying that we’re all leavers now is pointless unless you know what we are leaving. That was never set out before the vote. So I reverse my right to argue like f**k that we shouldn’t have a Hard Brexit, and to point out why it would be a disaster.
Billy it was the case of Victor Domboskis in 2006.
Sproty there are upwards of 3,000,000 of these furriners here at any one time and you have as your statistic 1 child rapist from Lithuania. Whilst this man and his crimes were horrendous are you seriously saying there are hundreds more in the country already ? Not doubting your sincerity and fear about this but who says that there are " 20/30,000 " hardened criminals awaiting return " ? If so why the f**k haven't we been doing our jobs here.
That's a serious amount of bad boys and girls !
You're right Hoola all of those foreigners are here and until they get arrested we haven't got a clue as to their antecedents.
And prior to the case of Dombodkis we were doing nothing about checking up on them.
In fact we had peeps turning up on the motorway hard shoulder, being taken to a Police station fingerprinted and then being released and told to make their own way to Liverpool to register.
Hardly a satisfactory state of affairs isn't it, oh and by the way when Have I ever belittled you in a Post?
Why do you feel you were belittled . The current prison population in the UK is only 85, 000 but you want us to believe that whilst EU immigrants only represent some 4-5 % of the general population ; they would represent 25- 40 % of our current prison population given your 20-30k figure.
That's why I challenged your figures - what you are in essence suggesting is that Europeans are 6 or even 8 times as likely to be serious criminals than us Brits . Basically that sort of figure came from where ....The Daily Express ?
We deport 30,000 EU citizens a year really ? -however you never seem to supply the relevant attachments do you to back up your assertions . Only what someone you know tells you. To listen to you , you would think that, every European but the British is nothing more than a scumbag. Is that really what you believe ? You have taken xenophobia to new heights .
It's your sort that spreads fear about foreigners , why do you do it .....you've even tried doing it with me ffs about MY OWN DAUGHTER !!
Do you realise how that makes me feel as I prepare her to work for nearly 2 months working in Spain followed by a further year in Denmark . You have started that little irrational fearful thought, just like an itch that won't go away, in the back of my mind ?
SWITZERLAND
NOT in the EU still in EUROPE
Has its own TAILORED EU DEAL
Has FREE TRADE DEALS with China Japan THE EU and many more
Exports FIVE TIMES more than the UK to THE EU
Adopts 0% of the EU RULES
Has the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUROPE
Is the 2nd RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD by nominal GDP PER HEAD
RANKS 1st in the WORLD in the global innovation index
Is NOT in the EU
DOING RATHER WELL DON'T YOU THINK
It can be done, but both sides need to want to do it, and stop playing silly buggers.
SWITZERLAND
NOT in the EU still in EUROPE
Has its own TAILORED EU DEAL
Has FREE TRADE DEALS with China Japan THE EU and many more
Exports FIVE TIMES more than the UK to THE EU
Adopts 0% of the EU RULES
Has the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUROPE
Is the 2nd RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD by nominal GDP PER HEAD
RANKS 1st in the WORLD in the global innovation index
Is NOT in the EU
DOING RATHER WELL DON'T YOU THINK
It can be done, but both sides need to want to do it, and stop playing silly buggers.
SWITZERLAND
NOT in the EU still in EUROPE
Has its own TAILORED EU DEAL
Has FREE TRADE DEALS with China Japan THE EU and many more
Exports FIVE TIMES more than the UK to THE EU
Adopts 0% of the EU RULES
Has the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUROPE
Is the 2nd RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD by nominal GDP PER HEAD
RANKS 1st in the WORLD in the global innovation index
Is NOT in the EU
DOING RATHER WELL DON'T YOU THINK
It can be done, but both sides need to want to do it, and stop playing silly buggers.
Glyn
Actually, he’s correct on nominal GDP per head. You’re posting PPP figures which are the commonly used ones because they take into account the very high cost of living in Switzerland. You wouldn’t expect a Brexit supporter to tell the world that Switzerland has a ferociously high cost of living, would you? I was in Lugano 7 years ago. We had a couple of pizzas and two pints of beer in a bog standard trattoria. The bill was nearly £80.
You also wouldn’t expect a Brexit supporter to tell you that the one country in the world with a higher nominal GDP per head than Switzerland is in the EU, would you? Or that Ireland which was an economic basket case in the 1970s now has a higher PPP GDP per head than Switzerland?
Billy, even the Irish border means that there is big bucks in it for someone, when that someone comes to the table it will get sorted.
A bit of fun, I saw it posted on a site,knew some of it was make believe, and thought getting hammered by yourselves would be a bit funny, SORRY.Shelby:You have never been Trolling,Billy,Hoola and Glynn have you..Shame on you!
But what some of you who are much more clued up than me on this subject have to realise, is that in both camps there are some very big world class companies who do exert a lot of influence on governments. And when push comes to shove their interests will be taken into consideration.
The talks are now heading towards their interests, I expect the tone to change and a more level headed approach to the negotiations, and more agreement.
A bit of fun, I saw it posted on a site,knew some of it was make believe, and thought getting hammered by yourselves would be a bit funny, SORRY.Shelby:You have never been Trolling,Billy,Hoola and Glynn have you..Shame on you!
But what some of you who are much more clued up than me on this subject have to realise, is that in both camps there are some very big world class companies who do exert a lot of influence on governments. And when push comes to shove their interests will be taken into consideration.
The talks are now heading towards their interests, I expect the tone to change and a more level headed approach to the negotiations, and more agreement.
Don't take it up with me Glynn, ask Mathew Lynn, he is the economist who thinks it could happen.
Billy I was sent a circular by my bank I invest with, I copied a brief article which I thought might be of interest, which was also published in the Telegraph, You are shooting the messenger.
I might add in the past, information from the same source has been very useful with regards to investments in the past. You can dismiss it, I can't afford to off hand, without doing a bit more research.
I have no doubt the figures quoted are correct, and if the trend continues, as the song says "there may be trouble ahead".
Billy I was sent a circular by my bank I invest with, I copied a brief article which I thought might be of interest, which was also published in the Telegraph, You are shooting the messenger.
I might add in the past, information from the same source has been very useful with regards to investments in the past. You can dismiss it, I can't afford to off hand, without doing a bit more research.
I have no doubt the figures quoted are correct, and if the trend continues, as the song says "there may be trouble ahead".
But, but, but, we're taking back control, Boris and Nigel said so....
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf
Hoola, I will give you a tip, get out of the Yorkshire Penny Bank you were in at school.
I still wonder if they had left well alone and stayed as an economic area rather than try and move to political integration whether the vote would have been different, mine probs would have been
The Pound doing rather well this morning.
The Pound doing rather well this morning.
No but it does help if you are buying some of the other currency.
Hoola, its them with the pounds who will look after themselves, the rest of us don't really have a say in it.
As for investments, a mix of world wide companies is the best. Whatever geographical area you put your money in, there are some world class companies which will flourish eventually no matter what. Its picking them out that is the problem.
If you are confident, do your research, look at the underlying trends,how dividends are covered, and recent results, have a dabble yourself, or put money into well managed funds with a track record of growth and a diverse portfolio spread ( less risk but more expensive).
But only put money in you can afford to lose and don't need for day to day living, over time you should be better off than putting it in a bank.
I've paid road tax since 1966 and it has never fully been used for roads and traffic problems.
Cut off a limb so we there's no easy way them pesky Europeans can sneak in to our great country.
Billy, the same system can still be implemented if both sides want to agree to it.It would hit the economy of Southern Ireland, who didn't vote for Brexit and are part of the EU. Why should the EU f**k over its own citizens to give us what we want? We're the ones who want to leave, and we will bear the consequences, but the EU cannot allow those consequences to affect its own citizens living in ROI. I'm sure people will think I'm anti-British for saying this, but I don't think that's an unreasonable position for the EU to take. We'd do exactly the same, I'm sure.
The fact is it is not seen as as acceptable for political reasons, mostly from the EU's point of view, economically it is small beer, and would hit the economy of Southern Ireland.
Fun and games to be had down the line I think, but time to bang heads together and get on with it.
Billy, the same system can still be implemented if both sides want to agree to it.
The fact is it is not seen as as acceptable for political reasons, mostly from the EU's point of view, economically it is small beer, and would hit the economy of Southern Ireland.
Fun and games to be had down the line I think, but time to bang heads together and get on with it.
Billy, the same system can still be implemented if both sides want to agree to it.
The fact is it is not seen as as acceptable for political reasons, mostly from the EU's point of view, economically it is small beer, and would hit the economy of Southern Ireland.
Fun and games to be had down the line I think, but time to bang heads together and get on with it.
Billy, the same system can still be implemented if both sides want to agree to it.It would hit the economy of Southern Ireland, who didn't vote for Brexit and are part of the EU. Why should the EU f**k over its own citizens to give us what we want? We're the ones who want to leave, and we will bear the consequences, but the EU cannot allow those consequences to affect its own citizens living in ROI. I'm sure people will think I'm anti-British for saying this, but I don't think that's an unreasonable position for the EU to take. We'd do exactly the same, I'm sure.
The fact is it is not seen as as acceptable for political reasons, mostly from the EU's point of view, economically it is small beer, and would hit the economy of Southern Ireland.
Fun and games to be had down the line I think, but time to bang heads together and get on with it.
Billy, I watched a programme the other day about this subject, the port of Harwich does £86 billion of trade with the Eu every year all electronically surveyed, and very few customs officers evident at all.
The cross border trade amounts to £3 billion per year.
Just what would be the problem and the difference in your eyes?
Most of the rich English people who lived in London have moved away, there are too many foreigners living there now for them.
It is easier to buy a pad in the south of France, and rent their pads out in London at exorbitant rents.
Buy in the nice parts of France and your neighbours are most likely British as well.
An interesting new EU law...
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-brexit-uk-labour-laws-migrant-workers-a8375836.html
Becoming a problem in Germany and France, that's why.
Are you suggesting he is lying then Selby ?I've joined this forum in 2014, before I came there to live in Barnsley (April 2014). I was interested in this team since I heard that Tamas joined the club (Tamas wasn't and isn't my favorite player), and I was curious about the club and the supporters...I've always loved english football, your history and tradition.
DMC has been a member of this forum for some time now and I for one don't feel he would have reason to lie to us , do you ?
Perhaps his experiences don't quite fit with the daft ideology you would much prefer to believe in . Plus que ça change and all that
Surely we all remember the promises made during the referendum campaign: We all know the “Land of Unicorns and Rainbows” that was promised: The EU would roll over and give us a “Cake And Eat It” deal, all the foreigners would be shoved over the white cliffs of Dover at the point of a pitchfork and the NHS would be rolling in cash.
But of course, none of those things has happened. And we all know now that they’re not going to. Leave campaign knew this from the very start, but enough people swallowed their lies to get them their 52% and that was what really mattered to them…… was the ONLY thing that mattered to them.
Now their message has changed in a very fundamental way. The message now is about finding a way to de-couple the VOTE to leave the EU from the CONSEQUENCES of leaving and this is being done in six distinct ways.
IT’S TOO LATE NOW
Pretty simple, this one. “The vote’s been held and we’ve got to live with it so get with the programme.” In this narrative, all debate ended with the referendum. Pro Brexit journalist Julia Hartley recently tweeted in response to a question on the lack of foreign investment since the vote: “Look mate, I really don’t care. This question was answered two years ago. Move on with your life.” A typical Brexiter statement.
But politics doesn’t work like that. Winning the vote was just the first – and easiest - part of a process which is going to have consequences for generations to come.
IT’S NOT UP TO US
This is the denial of responsibility. This says that those who led the Leave campaign have done their bit by simply delivering a majority to leave the EU and its up to everybody else now to make it work. But in a way, winning the vote was a disaster for Brexiters because it meant that they became responsible for what happened next.
They were warned over and over of the consequences but insisted that those warnings were not only wrong, but were malevolent, EU motivated fear mongering so Leavers now claim that the current mess is all the Remainers fault and they must now change their attitude. But this is a red herring. In reality it is up to Leavers to make Brexit work, not Remainers who have always insisted that the whole thing would end badly.
IT HASN’T BEEN DONE PROPERLY
This argument tells us that there was nothing wrong with the decision… that all the faults lie with the government. Firstly, Leavers argue that they never specified how Brexit was to be undertaken in a way that doesn’t damage the UK economically, politically or strategically. However, every mis-step of the government has been as a result of pressure from, and cheered on by, “Brexit Ultras” like the Tories favourite panto toff, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and this includes the dogmatic “Red Lines”, the premature triggering of Article 50 and the subsequent premature calling of a General Election to (according to the Daily Mail) “Crush The Saboteurs.”
This narrative often happens in failed businesses where any and every failed management decision is defended by its advocates who claim it would have worked brilliantly if it wasn’t for “inadequate implementation.”
This takes us back to “It’s Not Up To Us” in that Brexiters claim victimhood at the hands of the elite, refusing to accept that having won the referendum and having a government pursuing what they campaigned for, it’s not their fault because they’re not the ones implementing it.
And then, of course, we come to the inevitable……
IT’S ALL THE REMAINERS FAULT
Of course, everything would have been just fine and dandy if it wasn’t for all those dreadful Remoaners who are vacuously accused of sabotage, treachery and talking Brexit down. Depending on the situation, the failure of Brexit is blamed on the Civil Service, the BBC, the CBI, the House of Lords but not, mysteriously, ex-Public Schoolboys, multi millionaires, Hedge Fund speculators, right-wing politicians and media moguls, and newspaper owners who support Brexit. Sometimes, the fault lies with each and every individual of the 48% who voted Remain. Wow..!!
But hold on a minute…… if Brexit had been the wonderful thing its proponents claimed, then it wouldn’t have mattered what the Remainers did or said, would it..?
IT’S ALL THE EU’S FAULT
This is the most dominant of the post referendum excuses made by Brexiters. They claim that the EU has decided to “punish” Britain for leaving. Such claims are nonsense since they ascribe to the EU the consequences of Britain leaving and as such are just another form of denial of responsibility.
For instance, Brexiters blame the EU for the Irish border crisis as something created by the EU, but it isn't. It is the ineluctable legal consequence of leaving the single market and customs union.
The problem with the punishment narrative is that the Brexiters said during the referendum campaign that Britain “Holds all the cards” and that “The EU needs us more than we need them.” If those things were true then no punishment would have been possible. If it was wrong then Vote Leave must indeed have known of the consequences embedded in the lie, consequences that they concealed from the public.
IT’S NOT ABOUT PRACTICAL CONSEQUENCES, IT’S ABOUT PHILOSOPHICAL PRINCIPLES
The last, desperate throw of the dice to give some justification for getting us into this mess, Vote Leave claim a commitment to “sovereignty” in the abstract. This is the “Take Back Control” argument.
This enables them to argue that consequences don’t matter because the referendum was a philosophical vote. But instead of arguing that case on its own, instead they made arguments about immigration and NHS funding…. Arguments which would not have had to be made if they had a pure sovereignty agenda.
As the practical consequences of Brexit mount up and can no longer be dismissed as Project Fear, Brexiters now attempt to counter the Remain argument that “Nobody voted to be poorer.” The real reason behind the sovereignty argument is that it is intended to deflect discussion away from practical consequences.
The sovereignty red herring is used to ignore practical consequences to the extent that many Brexiters now argue that the hardships looming on the horizon are actually desirable because they will create a renewal of national spirit by bringing about a return of the “Dunkirk Spirit.” Whaaaaaat…??
There was a reason they didn’t put this on the big red bus though….. because nobody would have voted for it.
In summary, because the vote to leave the EU was the beginning of a process, not the end of it, the way that Brexiters are now trying to de-couple the vote from the consequences is crucial to them. The benefits promised by Brexit simply haven’t happened and actually look more distant now than ever before.
Immigration hasn’t been halted and they knew it never would be. The day after the referendum, Daniel Hannan stated the Leave campaign “Never said there was going to be some radical decline” (in immigration) and in March 2018 David Davis said that immigration is bound to rise.
Both have now subtly altered their position and say that what really matters is that Britain has its own immigration policy rather than the EU’s. Numbers don’t matter….. we can have as much immigration as (possibly more than) the EU but that will be OK because it would be us allowing it rather than being ordered to by Brussels. Does that sound to you like what we were told during the referendum campaign..? No..? I thought not.
As for free trade, many Brexiters now argue that this was the central argument in favour of Brexit. But it wasn’t. Immigration was and we all know it. And even if free trade had been, it wasn’t explained that any trade policy would involve the relaxation of immigration controls.
So, this is where Brexiters are now. All the referendum swagger has gone, all the promises made have evaporated and in their place are a series of absurd and indefensible arguments which, even if they run together make two fundamentally different claims. One is that whatever happens now is not the fault of Brexiters. The other is that the referendum gave them a blank cheque to do whatever they please… that 23 June 2016 is a frozen in time moment that denotes either the end of their responsibility or the beginning of their freedom to define the consequences.
Both are linked to their boundless dishonesty since neither claim was entertained, let alone endorsed by the referendum.
But they are both profoundly unrealistic because politics did NOT end on 23 June 2016. On the contrary, it began a period of political dislocation in this country that will likely last for decades to come.
Brexiters seem to think that by winning the vote that would be an end to it and it is already obvious that this is not so. If Brexit does go ahead then Brexiters will – quite rightly – be held responsible for every consequence that flows from it.
That is the significance of the excuses they are putting forward to deny that the vote had any consequences. It’s not just that they don’t want to take the blame, they don’t want to take responsibility either.
The ultimate truth about Brexit is that it started as a protest movement with wholly un-thought out, unrealistic and disastrous policies and became – against the odds - a government set on delivering them.
The Brexiters are now running away from the consequences as fast as they can. The tragedy for our country is that in one way or another, the entire population – including the 48% who didn’t want anything to do with it - are stuck with having to live with them.
Today, Theresa May refused to commit to the “detailed, ambitious and precise” paper on Brexit, as promised, ahead of the Summit scheduled for the end of this month. This is just the latest failure of a government who cannot - and doesn't want to - take responsibility for the thing that has come to define it.
Are you suggesting he is lying then Selby ?I've joined this forum in 2014, before I came there to live in Barnsley (April 2014). I was interested in this team since I heard that Tamas joined the club (Tamas wasn't and isn't my favorite player), and I was curious about the club and the supporters...I've always loved english football, your history and tradition.
DMC has been a member of this forum for some time now and I for one don't feel he would have reason to lie to us , do you ?
Perhaps his experiences don't quite fit with the daft ideology you would much prefer to believe in . Plus que ça change and all that
I'm an honest man, I don't like lies. What I told about Germany is what I know about them from my father (he started to work there in 1999, when I had 11 years old) and from my experience when I lived there (it was much longer than I lived in UK) and talked with germans.
Any chance of a TL;DR summary?
Fairly strong rumours that David Davis is set to quit tomorrow. It's becoming more and more obvious to even those who want it to work that unfortunately it's set to be an unmitigated disaster.
Threatening to resign is about the only thing he’s done for the past6 months.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/06/all-times-david-davis-has-threatened-resign-over-brexit-didn-t#amp
What a f**king shower. And they’re STILL ahead in the polls.
Threatening to resign is about the only thing he’s done for the past6 months.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/06/all-times-david-davis-has-threatened-resign-over-brexit-didn-t#amp
What a f**king shower. And they’re STILL ahead in the polls.
Trump being aggressive and belligerent at the G7 Summit;
He suggests Russia should be welcomed back, to make a G8;
Boris Johnson being secretly recorded tonight stating that Trump would make a better job than May of negotiating Brexit;
Europe on the back foot in the face of US trade sanctions due to lack of unity;
We are going to hell in a hand cart.
Trump being aggressive and belligerent at the G7 Summit;
He suggests Russia should be welcomed back, to make a G8;
Boris Johnson being secretly recorded tonight stating that Trump would make a better job than May of negotiating Brexit;
Europe on the back foot in the face of US trade sanctions due to lack of unity;
We are going to hell in a hand cart.
Not being a political expert I keep out of this thread but it strikes me that for the people who are involved in the Brexit negotiations, well they face an almost impossible task in trying to get us a decent deal.
Whatever they do is deemed to be wrong by their detractors.
A chance for political points scoring.
It is kind of like being involved in a car crash, then berating the emergency services for not doing their jobs properly when they come to help you.
You dont want to be in the car crash in the first place of course but there you are.
The people we should be pointing the finger of blame at are the voters who put us in this position.
Not being a political expert I keep out of this thread but it strikes me that for the people who are involved in the Brexit negotiations, well they face an almost impossible task in trying to get us a decent deal.
Whatever they do is deemed to be wrong by their detractors.
A chance for political points scoring.
It is kind of like being involved in a car crash, then berating the emergency services for not doing their jobs properly when they come to help you.
You dont want to be in the car crash in the first place of course but there you are.
The people we should be pointing the finger of blame at are the voters who put us in this position.
Thats very judgemental Hound if I may say so and just a little arrogant. Have you every considered it may turn out to be a wise choice (it may not but seems you haven't even considered it)
Not being a political expert I keep out of this thread but it strikes me that for the people who are involved in the Brexit negotiations, well they face an almost impossible task in trying to get us a decent deal.
Whatever they do is deemed to be wrong by their detractors.
A chance for political points scoring.
It is kind of like being involved in a car crash, then berating the emergency services for not doing their jobs properly when they come to help you.
You dont want to be in the car crash in the first place of course but there you are.
The people we should be pointing the finger of blame at are the voters who put us in this position.
Not being a political expert I keep out of this thread but it strikes me that for the people who are involved in the Brexit negotiations, well they face an almost impossible task in trying to get us a decent deal.
Whatever they do is deemed to be wrong by their detractors.
A chance for political points scoring.
It is kind of like being involved in a car crash, then berating the emergency services for not doing their jobs properly when they come to help you.
You dont want to be in the car crash in the first place of course but there you are.
The people we should be pointing the finger of blame at are the voters who put us in this position.
Thats very judgemental Hound if I may say so and just a little arrogant. Have you every considered it may turn out to be a wise choice (it may not but seems you haven't even considered it)
I thought that tosspot would rear his head again this weekend.
The intellectual vacuousness of the Brexit tub-thumpers is spectacularly depressing. They continually harp on about needing a “vision” for post-Brexit Britain but they never EVER propose a vision. Because they know there isn’t one that won’t leave us significantly poorer and weaker. What that t**t is doing is preparing the way for post-Brexit blame. In two years time, when our economy is tanking because of him and his like leading us into voting for a disaster, he’ll claim that the real problem is that May et al didn’t have a vision and everything would have been alright if we did.
I hope the bas**rd rots in Hell.
Not being a political expert I keep out of this thread but it strikes me that for the people who are involved in the Brexit negotiations, well they face an almost impossible task in trying to get us a decent deal.
Whatever they do is deemed to be wrong by their detractors.
A chance for political points scoring.
It is kind of like being involved in a car crash, then berating the emergency services for not doing their jobs properly when they come to help you.
You dont want to be in the car crash in the first place of course but there you are.
The people we should be pointing the finger of blame at are the voters who put us in this position.
Thats very judgemental Hound if I may say so and just a little arrogant. Have you every considered it may turn out to be a wise choice (it may not but seems you haven't even considered it)
It's also very accurate. Pray tell me, HOW will 'leave' turn out to be a wise choice? I've seen nothing but rhetoric from leavers so far, meanwhile jobs are leaving the UK and the lot of the worse off in the country, (a large proportion of whom voted leave), are becoming worse off; the situation re the Irish border is no where nearer a solution than when we started, and the deal that was to be so easy as to take no more than ten minutes has hardly progressed at all!
The people of this country deserve the BREXIT they think they voted for! But they won't be happy with it!
Oh.A good link Billy. I did end up chipping in a £5 donation to the guardian but it does make you wonder how much there is to come out.
f**king.
Dear.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting
The man who bankrolled Farage’s Brexit campaign was up to his b*llocks in Russian contacts.
Well. Who would have expected that?
Still. We took back control, eh?
Oh.A good link Billy. I did end up chipping in a £5 donation to the guardian but it does make you wonder how much there is to come out.
f**king.
Dear.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting
The man who bankrolled Farage’s Brexit campaign was up to his b*llocks in Russian contacts.
Well. Who would have expected that?
Still. We took back control, eh?
That's one way of looking at it Dutch - another is we are now seeing the failure, fallout and consequences of global capitalism. Maybe Putin enabled the campaigns but it was the people of the UK & US who voted for them.
If you want someone to blame, Cameron & Clinton would be nearer the top of my list.
RJ, it's not a new idea, and the Romans did it with a wall he he. When the oil goes there is nothing worth keeping, and the locals don't like us.
Yes,the Welsh version.
Eu growth forecast cut from 2.7 to 2.4 Inflation forecast up from 1.4 to 1.7 value of the euro down, but hey that news can be forgotten.
And still they carry on with Quantitative Easing. Yeh everything is rosy over there.
Meanwhile in La La land over the Atlantic things look very rosy.
Is UK GDP flatlining at 0.1% growth for the first quarter one of the improved figures that has been announced?
Even so, it's amazing how the EU figures are still better than those of the UK and US...and that after quantative easing! How much better would they have been without it??
RJ, it's not a new idea, and the Romans did it with a wall he he. When the oil goes there is nothing worth keeping, and the locals don't like us.
What do you mean by “yes”?sorry bst, yes to leave, I know some people say have another vote but I have a feeling it would be the same outcome
Yes to remain or yes to leave?
RJ, it's not a new idea, and the Romans did it with a wall he he. When the oil goes there is nothing worth keeping, and the locals don't like us.
Not been on for a while, I see you still write the most ridiculous comments though - just f**k off part of the Union because they have outlived their usefulness do we do that with N.Ireland too ? In the dark recesses of your mind, I'm sure you have other areas of the UK you are ready to hive off too the South West, the North East perhaps even dare I say it Yorkshire ?
RJ, it's not a new idea, and the Romans did it with a wall he he. When the oil goes there is nothing worth keeping, and the locals don't like us.
Not been on for a while, I see you still write the most ridiculous comments though - just f**k off part of the Union because they have outlived their usefulness do we do that with N.Ireland too ? In the dark recesses of your mind, I'm sure you have other areas of the UK you are ready to hive off too the South West, the North East perhaps even dare I say it Yorkshire ?
I'd f**k the Lancastrians off in a heartbeat if we could, to be fair. :laugh:
Hoola, Westminster, and make all the MP's go with it, by the way where do you live?
You take things too seriously, I don't even have to bait the hook.
RJ, it's not a new idea, and the Romans did it with a wall he he. When the oil goes there is nothing worth keeping, and the locals don't like us.
Not been on for a while, I see you still write the most ridiculous comments though - just f**k off part of the Union because they have outlived their usefulness do we do that with N.Ireland too ? In the dark recesses of your mind, I'm sure you have other areas of the UK you are ready to hive off too the South West, the North East perhaps even dare I say it Yorkshire ?
I'd f**k the Lancastrians off in a heartbeat if we could, to be fair. :laugh:
But if Lancashire wasn't there, what'd keep the rain off Yorkshire? :silly:
On a serious note here are two interesting quotes:
" I am absolutely clear that I cannot countenance parliament being able to overturn the will of the British people". Theresa May this week ai PMQs.
" There is no possibility for parliamentary interference to obliterate and render ineffective the execution of the nation's will". Joseph Goebbels in May 1933.
So much for regaining the sovereignty of Parliament!
On a serious note here are two interesting quotes:
" I am absolutely clear that I cannot countenance parliament being able to overturn the will of the British people". Theresa May this week ai PMQs.
" There is no possibility for parliamentary interference to obliterate and render ineffective the execution of the nation's will". Joseph Goebbels in May 1933.
So much for regaining the sovereignty of Parliament!
Kato your right to a point I worked at the pleasure beach on games stalls so was not employed by the pleasure beach, there main aim was to employ polish who would work 7 days a week 12 hours a day, in blackpool a seansonal town this is standard practice, soon as the season has finished they go home to Poland, great lads get on well with them but is that right?
Kato your right to a point I worked at the pleasure beach on games stalls so was not employed by the pleasure beach, there main aim was to employ polish who would work 7 days a week 12 hours a day, in blackpool a seansonal town this is standard practice, soon as the season has finished they go home to Poland, great lads get on well with them but is that right?
Was there something stopping local people from doing exactly the same as the Polish were willing to do?
a lot of people don't want to work 90 hours a week Glynn they have families and lives bedKato your right to a point I worked at the pleasure beach on games stalls so was not employed by the pleasure beach, there main aim was to employ polish who would work 7 days a week 12 hours a day, in blackpool a seansonal town this is standard practice, soon as the season has finished they go home to Poland, great lads get on well with them but is that right?Yes places like the pleasure beach, wpoWas there something stopping local people from doing exactly the same as the Polish were willing to do?Kato your right to a point I worked at the pleasure beach on games stalls so was not employed by the pleasure beach, there main aim was to employ polish who would work 7 days a week 12 hours a day, in blackpool a seansonal town this is standard practice, soon as the season has finished they go home to Poland, great lads get on well with them but is that right?
Was there something stopping local people from doing exactly the same as the Polish were willing to do?
a lot of people don't want to work 90 hours a week Glynn they have families and lives bedKato your right to a point I worked at the pleasure beach on games stalls so was not employed by the pleasure beach, there main aim was to employ polish who would work 7 days a week 12 hours a day, in blackpool a seansonal town this is standard practice, soon as the season has finished they go home to Poland, great lads get on well with them but is that right?Yes places like the pleasure beach, wpoWas there something stopping local people from doing exactly the same as the Polish were willing to do?Kato your right to a point I worked at the pleasure beach on games stalls so was not employed by the pleasure beach, there main aim was to employ polish who would work 7 days a week 12 hours a day, in blackpool a seansonal town this is standard practice, soon as the season has finished they go home to Poland, great lads get on well with them but is that right?
Was there something stopping local people from doing exactly the same as the Polish were willing to do?
Why should people have to work 90 hours a week glynn,they have no choice but to live in a seasonal town thou so it makes no difference what they expect
Your just looking to argue, where when they have no jobs and no money would you like them to move? Are you going put a few up at your place
Your just looking to argue, where when they have no jobs and no money would you like them to move? Are you going put a few up at your place
There are jobs if they want to earn money. Do you really think leaving the EU is going to change the nature of what jobs are on offer? Really??
In fact, it's the EU that want to limit the number of hours people have to work. Leaving the EU is really going to help, isn't it?
Oh, and I managed to get out of the seasonal town I grew up in by finding a job elsewhere - in Doncaster, as it happens. In the 1980s. When unemployment was over three million. Are you telling me it's harder to do that now than it was then?
[/quote yes it’s a lot harder years ago you could find a flat very easily and needed hardly any deposit, now they want at least a month rent in advance and deposit of the same again, no doubt you were a single guy with no worries so you could just up and leave, your other point is probably not but as they have nothing to lose it’s worth ago
I read somewhere today that Tory rebels are prepared to bring the government down after their agreement last week to avoid a government defeat was ammended later
There is no way out of this nightmare for May. And something has to give, soon.
I presume this £20mil 'Brexit dividend' is supported by the economic reports that David Davis first claimed had been done, then claimed hadn't been done when someone had the temerity to ask to look at them. Have they suddenly found them down the back of the sofa?
I got to say, I voted leave, I don't regret it, but the way this has been handled by the complete idiots in charge, and the opposition has convinced me that we should just reset and start again. Any other time Mays career would have been finished, but somehow she manages to cling to power
I got to say, I voted leave, I don't regret it, but the way this has been handled by the complete idiots in charge, and the opposition has convinced me that we should just reset and start again. Any other time Mays career would have been finished, but somehow she manages to cling to power
She's clinging to power because all those wanting to knife her in the back want all the stench of Brexit to cling to her and not to them afterwards. Why do you think they don't want Parliament to have a vote on it - because then it'll be on public record that they voted for the sorry mess rather than take over from May with a clean slate and saying 'Nowt to do wiv me, mate'.
Or maybe she can but has no idea how to claw her way out of the situation and doesn't want to give up her position.
It like voting tories or labour to the people with no money it makes no difference, tories put minimum wage up and let you earn more tax,if your on working tax credits like most low earners it makes no difference as once you earn so much they take it off your benefits, vote labour they will make it 10 pound a hour then they do the same, so no matter who you vote for you end up with the same amount of money
Bst no I don’t think brexit will
Fix anything, but brexit will
Make no difference to anyone who has very little money the only people brexit will
Affect either way are people
With at least abit of money
People should elect someone who does then. Isn't that how it works?
Well bst 67.5 percent voted leave in blackpool so not everyone shares your viewsDo you still believe that after all you have read on here that the decision to Leave was right ?
Well bst 67.5 percent voted leave in blackpool so not everyone shares your views
Looks like the rebels shat it again.
Yes TRB, and we were not deemed good enough to vote on that at all, we should demand a vote on it now, if only it seems to be the thing to do, and then the Lisbon treaty.
Not much anti-Maastricht sentiment in this 1991 poll TRB.
https://ems.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2948
Not much anti-Maastricht sentiment in this 1991 poll TRB.
https://ems.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2948
Exactly on that basis , the pro- EU vote would have pissed it contrary to all the things you hear I.e. - " Well if we had been allowed a vote on Maastricht ; we would have been long gone out of the EU " .
Perhaps on a vote based on lies and exaggerations , Russian money and Cambridge Analytica , AIQ, false electoral funding and expenditure ........they might well have been right.
Admitted off topic slightly, and ignoring Brexit, but in my 50yrs of actually voting ( I had to be 21 yrs old) I am hard pushed to think of anything good any Tory government has done for the Doncaster area, and very little for Yorkshire as a whole.Technically they're sponsoring the Rovers now!
Only parts of North Yorkshire and probably the Leeds area are significantly more prosperous than when I was a kid at school.
Maybe 6 months since I posted on this Thread - was determined NOT to but speaking of Maastricht I am always reminded that the Vote finally finished all square
The (then) Speaker Betty Boothroyd MP for the Constituency of West Bromwich (a former Labour MP but "neutralised" by becoming Speaker) had to vote in favour of the Bill as is traditional / protocol
So if she could have voted conscience wise the Bil would have been defeated. Dont you just love Politics
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-maastricht-debate-former-mp-firm-in-casting-vote-the-speaker-rare-intervention-keeps-boothroyd-1486494.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-maastricht-debate-former-mp-firm-in-casting-vote-the-speaker-rare-intervention-keeps-boothroyd-1486494.html)
Bye for another 6 months
I don't know anybody who I talk to whether original remainer or brexiteer who have changed their minds about the subject matter, I do know a couple of mates who like me voted to remain, but if there was another vote would vote out now, on the principle that the original vote should be respected.
Lets be real, no one (not even the great BST) can tell the future. We have all voted on gut feeling and what we want to happen. Both sides did (and supporters continue to) spew bile and rumour. Not one of you on here can know what is going on in the negotiations for real as we are fed shit and half truths from the UK and EU side of this now (despite how many articles from so called experts ppl post)
Vote leave or vote remain. It is happening. Ppl can spend their time with self righteous "I know best" posts or we can all get on with life and deal with what comes when it comes
What makes your opinion any more valid than someone else's?
Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media
What makes your opinion any more valid than someone else's?
Rj, I am quite open about my voting,In general elections I have never voted anything else but Labour in my life.So you would vote to put us out of Europe and pretty much isolated in the middle of the richest trading block in the world and condemn Briton to a continued slide in growth and GDP for the foreseable future on the view of a party that is not in power with a leadership that may only be temporary?
On brexit I voted to stay in, in the unlikely event of another vote on brexit, I would vote to come out of the EU.
The present leadership of the labour party, and the way the party is heading would make it hard for me at present to vote for any of the parties in a general election.
Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media
I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.
My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.
Ldr.
I agree with what you say. Brexit is happening. That’s certain.
The important point is though, that there’s a multitude of different ways in which it can happen.
This Govt has CHOSEN to make it happen in a very particular way that is much harder than many of the Leave side said it would be. Farage, back in 2016, was touting a Norway-style arrangement for us post-Brexit. But we are actually going for a much bigger separation from the EU than Norway has. They are members of the EEA and the Single Market. May has CHOSEN not to go for that approach. She has done so, not in the country’s best interests but because there is a majority in the Tory party (not in the country) for a hard Brexit and she wouldn’t survive as PM if she went for a softer Brexit.
What has happened is that the vote to leave was made with no clarity whatsoever about what leaving meant. It’s pretty well nailed on that if the choice in 2016 had been between Remain and THIS type of leaving, the vote would have gone the other way.
You say we should make the best of it. I agree 100%. That means arguing against THIS type of Brexit because it will have very serious negative consequences for us.
You say both sides have spouted lies and no-one can predict the future. But as MM says, the key predictions of the Remain side ARE coming true. And there is nothing being out forward by the hard Brexiters other than assurances that it’ll be alright.
Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media
I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.
My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.
You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me
Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media
I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.
My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.
You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me
Well someone whose opinion is backed up by something other than a gut feeling tends to be more valid than someone whose opinion is just that.
Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media
I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.
My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.
You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me
Well someone whose opinion is backed up by something other than a gut feeling tends to be more valid than someone whose opinion is just that.
More informed does not equate to more valid. Basically you are dismissing the opinion of everyone who then forms it differently as less valid which is not the case. Everyones opinion is valid
Ldr
How much have we paid for those bailouts?
Forgive me for not noticing where I mentioned Ireland or Portugal......
Did we loan money to Greece because we were in the EU? Seeing as we lent them slightly less than the USA?
Yep. We made loans to Ireland and Portugal. They were repaid in full with interest.
And the loans by the EIB to Greece glyn? Which as you must well know is owned by the eu member states including the UK......
Not much anti-Maastricht sentiment in this 1991 poll TRB.
https://ems.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2948
Exactly on that basis , the pro- EU vote would have pissed it contrary to all the things you hear I.e. - " Well if we had been allowed a vote on Maastricht ; we would have been long gone out of the EU " .
Perhaps on a vote based on lies and exaggerations , Russian money and Cambridge Analytica , AIQ, false electoral funding and expenditure ........they might well have been right.
So here we are again discussing Brexit, and there are known knowns and unknown knowns...........
We are in this position because Cameron didnt do his home work and squibbed by putting a vote to the people instead of thrashing it out with his party and in the parliament and did not expect a yes vote. Cameron has lost all credibility since by resigning and leaving the C-team to clear up the mess. Known.
The those taking an active part in the lead up to the vote were not monitored to ensure everything was fair and above board. Known.
Widespread cheating regarding the truth in statements and funding of the leave vote where the majority of the corruption has been uncovered. Known.
Almost all the news and information from credible souces has painted a scene of bad news for the economy and individuals alike, the individuals most affected are already in the lower socio economic band. Known
There is no credible outcome known to date where Britain will be able to make good the losses to date and the losses that will be incurred for the foreseeable future. Known
Since the vote the government has been dishonest in part and a absolute shambles in negotiating all the possible outcomes of Brexit. Known.
Ldr
I appreciate your intention. Please understand that what I am doing is not whinging or blaming.
And I fervently agree that what we need to do is make the best of the situation. I want our country to be wealthy, comfortable with itself and mature. My abiding fear is that we’ve set ourselves on a path where we are going to be none of those things by the time my kids are my age.
Brexit still does not have to happen in the way that May interpreted it. There is nothing like a Will of the People for the kind of hard Brexit that she is stumbling us into. But it WILL happen if people just shrug their shoulders and say “Let them get in with it.”
Last point. You won’t like this but I suggest you read it. And think hard about the points raised. Don’t see it as partisan tub-thumping. See it as mature, intelligent reflection. Allow yourself to be challenged.
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/06/two-years-into-brexit-disaster.html?m=1
Ldr
How much have we paid for those bailouts?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33407742
£56 billion was pumped into the 'Celtic tiger' of which £20 was from the Uk, that's three times the total GDP of Eire, We borrowed it at 5.5% and they pay it back at 6.5%. Allegedly!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk
With both Ireland and Portugal now out of their bailout programmes, the UK has not lost any money supporting them at the peak of the crisis
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/brexit-voters-are-not-thick-not-racist-just-poor/amp/. Think that is quite a decent link on some people's way of thinking
SprotyThat’s a bit of a condescending remark from you Billy and i’m a bit dismayed by your attitude,
I know you struggle with the real world when you take your eyes away from RT, so I’ll explain it simply.
The money you are talking about had nothing, zero, nada to do with our membership of the EU.
Got it?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/brexit-voters-are-not-thick-not-racist-just-poor/amp/. Think that is quite a decent link on some people's way of thinking
C4 documentary “Inside the Embassy”. Fly on the wall documentary of meetings in the American Embassy in London.
This is economic advisers giving an update to the Ambassador so he’s well informed when he meets with British politicians.
https://mobile.twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1011636382786314240/video/1
Those of you who are wedded to Leave. Watch this. THIS is what the economic experts in the USA are telling their people.
Further to that story about Farage, the polls, the pound collapsing and the hedge fund managers making a fortune.Amazing. Literally smirking away as he takes money out of the pockets of every single Briton. Brexiters - why are you angry at the people who point this out for being "condescending", but you're happy to let this slide? This merchant banker who's grinning away as he takes money from you and your family.
Here’s how Farage responded to the pound’s collapse on the night of the vote.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mk1969/status/1012086482314711042
C4 documentary “Inside the Embassy”. Fly on the wall documentary of meetings in the American Embassy in London.
This is economic advisers giving an update to the Ambassador so he’s well informed when he meets with British politicians.
https://mobile.twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1011636382786314240/video/1
Those of you who are wedded to Leave. Watch this. THIS is what the economic experts in the USA are telling their people.
That's astounding when was this aired and if so why hasn't there been any sort of outcry ?
There's a "leaked" eyes only letter doing the rounds that they're going to actually offer a vote on the final deal after all since it's turned out to be a clusterf**k.
I don't think it's real but apparently the image of the letter has been checked for being electronically modified i.e. May's signature photoshopped onto it and it checks out. We'll see, I suppose. I don't think she'll climb down like that now as it would be the end of her.
The public. I'm not convinced it's real though.
Selby.bmw have said they will not pull out of the uk even in the event of a no deal, so nothing to see here bar scaremongering, you have seen the independent newspaper print in and take it as gospel
You’re right about the air going blue.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44618154
BMW have said they won’t
This egomaniac idiot saying “f**k business” and complaining about the opinions of “those who profess to represent business.” By which he means some of the leaders of the biggest companies in the country, who are telling the Govt that Brexit is going to hammer them and they’ll take their business out of the country.
Line up folks. Hands up.
Whose opinion do you trust? Simple choice. The heads of Airbus and BMW UK? Or Johnson, Fox and Rees-Mogg?
The public. I'm not convinced it's real though.
I'm not so sure. Those eyeing up knifing May in the back and take over don't want the stigmata of a shit Brexit on their hands. Now they'll have to vote for it in Parliameant their fingerprints will be on record as being all over it.
However, if there's a second vote they'll be off the hook. Either Brexit is voted against and the problem goes away completely or it's voted for and they're just carrying out the 'will of the people', "nuffink to do wiv me, mate".
Watching the news just now. Still no progress on anything and both sides accusing each other of intransigence.
Looking more and more like no deal to me.
Selby.bmw have said they will not pull out of the uk even in the event of a no deal, so nothing to see here bar scaremongering, you have seen the independent newspaper print in and take it as gospel
You’re right about the air going blue.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44618154
BMW have said they won’t
This egomaniac idiot saying “f**k business” and complaining about the opinions of “those who profess to represent business.” By which he means some of the leaders of the biggest companies in the country, who are telling the Govt that Brexit is going to hammer them and they’ll take their business out of the country.
Line up folks. Hands up.
Whose opinion do you trust? Simple choice. The heads of Airbus and BMW UK? Or Johnson, Fox and Rees-Mogg?
Watching the news just now. Still no progress on anything and both sides accusing each other of intransigence.
Looking more and more like no deal to me.
Selby.bmw have said they will not pull out of the uk even in the event of a no deal, so nothing to see here bar scaremongering, you have seen the independent newspaper print in and take it as gospel
You’re right about the air going blue.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44618154
BMW have said they won’t
This egomaniac idiot saying “f**k business” and complaining about the opinions of “those who profess to represent business.” By which he means some of the leaders of the biggest companies in the country, who are telling the Govt that Brexit is going to hammer them and they’ll take their business out of the country.
Line up folks. Hands up.
Whose opinion do you trust? Simple choice. The heads of Airbus and BMW UK? Or Johnson, Fox and Rees-Mogg?
Like others I suggest you either change the newspaper you read or at least go to the source of the headline.
They can and believe me WILL switch their production if they stand to lose money or have delays in their just in time systems . The same applies to other car manufacturers i.e. Toyota, Nissan, Landrover, Jaguar etc .
We won’t leave with no deal. Not a chance in a million. Because it would be catastrophic to our economy (and I MEAN catastrophic) and it would be less severe but still damaging to the EU economy.
Where we’re heading to is the endgame where the bullshit and bluster of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Fox gets exposed for bullshit and bluster. There’s no deal that they can work that would be satisfactory to the EU and not cause severe damage to our economy. May’s bern playing for time, hoping something will come up but there’s no time left now.
So May is going to have two options.
1) Really go for the suicidal No Deal strategy. But that will NOT get through Parliament. Then she would have to resign.
2) Go for the only tenable solution from where we are. An extended transition period in which nothing much changes and we kick the can down the road. And then she faces the wrath of the headjob Brexiteers who will probably bring her down.
It’ll be three years wasted and nothing further on. But at least we might be shut of her.
Oh dear! Tinky-Winky’s not happy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44668572
Endgame’s coming. I don’t often agree with Matthew Parris but he knows how the Tory party works. He got it spot on in the Times today. Said that there is no deal that will satisfy the Brexit headbangers that is remotely feasible. Said May had been kicking the can down the road hoping fir something to come up. But no time has run out. And the only hope for her is to find some backbone and face down the Brexit headbangers. Let them bring her down if they want to. But at least she’d go down doing the right (or the least wrong) thing.
No need to tell me, Billy, I did Politics at A-level!
Of course they are ahead. Jeremy Corbyn is the issue. Attracts extreme left wing lunatics mainly.
For the majority their xenophobia clouded everything else to do with Brexit. It's definitely not gonna help Doncaster.
For the majority their xenophobia clouded everything else to do with Brexit. It's definitely not gonna help Doncaster.
No genuine Leaver especially from poorer areas of the country voted to be even poorer or potentially be less secure
Perhaps they were poor enough to think they had now't to lose so voted accordingly.
For the majority their xenophobia clouded everything else to do with Brexit. It's definitely not gonna help Doncaster.
Here we go again. Any deal that stops us being allowed to negotiate our own trade deals with the rest of that big world out there would be terrible and a complete waste of time leaving for me.
Remoaners constantly tagging leave voters as racist gets a bit tedious and boring. Then again most of these far left wing lunatic protesters don’t even know what the EU is. Just jump on a bandwagon go marching around protesting whilst the rest of us go to work.
No genuine Leaver especially from poorer areas of the country voted to be even poorer or potentially be less secure
Perhaps they were poor enough to think they had now't to lose so voted accordingly.
If that’s what they thought then they are in for a VERY nasty shock.
You are wasting your breath Billy , no- one said every Leaver was racist but the one sure thing is we will ALL be poorer as you said . The Labour Party need to step up to the plate pronto- they have played the waiting game far too long now - they are being deliberately tarred with the same brush by the Tories with this 84% voted for it argument !No genuine Leaver especially from poorer areas of the country voted to be even poorer or potentially be less secure
Perhaps they were poor enough to think they had now't to lose so voted accordingly.
If that’s what they thought then they are in for a VERY nasty shock.
For the majority their xenophobia clouded everything else to do with Brexit. It's definitely not gonna help Doncaster.
Here we go again. Any deal that stops us being allowed to negotiate our own trade deals with the rest of that big world out there would be terrible and a complete waste of time leaving for me.
Remoaners constantly tagging leave voters as racist gets a bit tedious and boring. Then again most of these far left wing lunatic protesters don’t even know what the EU is. Just jump on a bandwagon go marching around protesting whilst the rest of us go to work.
No genuine Leaver especially from poorer areas of the country voted to be even poorer or potentially be less secure
Perhaps they were poor enough to think they had now't to lose so voted accordingly.
If that’s what they thought then they are in for a VERY nasty shock.
In my opinion, for what that's worth, its the centerists (left and right) who want to Remain, the loony left who want a soft Brexit and the hard right who want a hard Brexit.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect
I'll just leave this here.
Well THIS is interesting.
https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2093159307675470/
Looks like, after 2 years of stupid, unpleasant posturing, May has finally seen sense. It looks like the new line is: Brexit means...errr...nothing much changes actually because anything else would be f**king lunacy.
Be fun to see how Rees-Mogg and the swivelled eyed loons on the Right of the Tory party respond to this one.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44704561
Yet another stain on the Leave campaign.
Doubtless there’ll just be more shrugging of shoukders and wisecracking from Boris and we’ll all ignore it.
For the record, BeLeave was a company which campaigned for Brexit. It was set up by some pre-pubescent non-entity and then: Hey! Whaddya know! It gets a £600k donation! Which it uses to link with Cambridge Analytica to send focussed ads on social media.
Vote Leave have always said that Be Leave was nothing to do with them. Even though the spotty Herbert who set it up was a Vote Leave employee.
It was clear as day what had happened. VL had spent the maximum they could by law. But they needed one last target push (that Kitson Cumming had bragged about it). So they set up BL which meant they could (illegally) symphony more funds into the last minute advertising.
Criminality upon criminality. Oh yeah. And wait till you hear where the BL £600k came from...
Well THIS is interesting.
https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2093159307675470/
Looks like, after 2 years of stupid, unpleasant posturing, May has finally seen sense. It looks like the new line is: Brexit means...errr...nothing much changes actually because anything else would be f**king lunacy.
Be fun to see how Rees-Mogg and the swivelled eyed loons on the Right of the Tory party respond to this one.
If she did that they'd just laugh at her to be fair, especially Johnson.
If she did that they'd just laugh at her to be fair, especially Johnson.
In which case she should sack them and make it clear publicly why she has.
She's supposed to be a leader. If she started acting like one she might, just might, actually achieve something. The way she's acting at the moment just lets everybody push her around and we all end up going nowhere except in circles.
No need to be sexist about it RedJ.😉If she did that they'd just laugh at her to be fair, especially Johnson.
In which case she should sack them and make it clear publicly why she has.
She's supposed to be a leader. If she started acting like one she might, just might, actually achieve something. The way she's acting at the moment just lets everybody push her around and we all end up going nowhere except in circles.
Aye, she hasn't got the balls to do it.
The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.
Great stuff. It's only taken us 2 f**king years to actually work out what our own position is. Now to get the EU to actually agree to it without the Tory government changing their minds again.
Great stuff. It's only taken us 2 f**king years to actually work out what our own position is. Now to get the EU to actually agree to it without the Tory government changing their minds again.
Not even that unless one is a conservative voter. All this time for the Cons to agree to disagree & put lipstick on the pig.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning
The conservatives are not anywhere near settled on this, its window dressing and internal factions will be involved in heavy hand to hand fighting right up to the point they drive us off a cliff.
This is way before the EU the ones with a royal flush.
Be interesting to see how this holds together. In the past, when she’s agreed a sensible deal with one group, she’s then gone to meet with the swivel-eyed loon backbenchers and told them a totally different story.
Expect to see Rees-Mogg and Jenkin and Bone and the rest slavering at the mouth about betrayal of the Will of the People all through the weekend. And I’d expect them to be on the phone to Johnson and Gove to talk about a leadership challenge.
The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.
You’re shitting me, right?
You expected a grown up negotiation?
When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:
1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.
You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.
Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?
YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.
This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.
The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.
You’re shitting me, right?
You expected a grown up negotiation?
When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:
1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.
You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.
Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?
YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.
This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.
I'm not complaining Billy but did expect some semblance of responsible diplomacy by the country's representatives. Cameron and Osborne were hardly the best face for remain.
I was on the fence to an extent but resented being dragged ever nearer to a federal EU as seemed to be the way. I had a postal vote and when I cast my vote remain seemed very likely. At least I did vote unlike a lot of younger voters that then complained about the result.
I didn't vote conservative but had to watch Thatcher decimate our industry. I didn't vote for Blair and the invasion of Iraq or their open door policy.
If history proves me wrong so be it but reflecting on it won't change anything. We are where we are and I expect the people getting paid good wages and pensions to earn their money and get us the best deal possible.
I wasn’t meaning you Idler. Read it again.Sorry BST. I have read it again.
The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.
You’re shitting me, right?
You expected a grown up negotiation?
When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:
1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.
You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.
Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?
YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.
This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.
I live in one of the 2 lowest gdp areas in the uk(Cornwall and isle of Scilly) guess what? Its leave central here, again in spite of the funding going on via the eu!?I think its similar to Stockholm syndrome or a hunger striker, when they get to a certain point they dont have the strength or resources to make rational decisions any more.
Its this I cant grasp as in Yorkshire, Teesside ect!? What do they want because it certainly wasn't to decimate their own back yards ??!
Answers on a postcard in 20yrs time when the dust has settled
I wasn’t meaning you Idler. Read it again.Sorry BST. I have read it again.
I live in one of the 2 lowest gdp areas in the uk(Cornwall and isle of Scilly) guess what? Its leave central here, again in spite of the funding going on via the eu!?
Its this I cant grasp as in Yorkshire, Teesside ect!? What do they want because it certainly wasn't to decimate their own back yards ??!
Answers on a postcard in 20yrs time when the dust has settled
The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.
You’re shitting me, right?
You expected a grown up negotiation?
When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:
1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.
You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.
Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?
YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.
This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.
Do leave voters make you this angry in real life or just at your keyboard?
The shit has hit the fan, David Davis has resigned. Interesting times ahead?
The shit has hit the fan, David Davis has resigned. Interesting times ahead?
Why not have the people's vote. It at least stops the people saying 17 million voted for a certain kind of Brexit.
I wasn’t meaning you Idler. Read it again.Sorry BST. I have read it again.
He is referring to Ian Dunt who wrote the article surely - thats how I read it Idler.
Why not have the people's vote. It at least stops the people saying 17 million voted for a certain kind of Brexit.
As for May, yes she believes in nothing, but every person’s pride has its limits.
She has just pinned her colours to the mast of the Brexit deal she wanted. She now cannot get support to go forward with that deal. It would take a Herculean amount of ability to ignore embarrassment to go and try to begitiate a different deal. Knowing that, now dissent is out in the open, no possible deal that the Tory party will support would be accepted by the EU.
Gone by Friday. If not tonight.
This was all eminently clear when she lost her majority and mandate at the last election. But shr trundled along regardless.
This was all eminently clear when she lost her majority and mandate at the last election. But shr trundled along regardless.That was different. She could continue in Denial Mode. Something might have turned up. Plus, she was a useful lightning conductor for the rest of the party. She had f**ked up tgeir position and no one wanted to be responsible for sorting out the mess.
Gove will be Foreign Secretary tonight. Possibly PM by this time next week.
Gove will be Foreign Secretary tonight. Possibly PM by this time next week.
I can't even contemplate the prospect of Gove as PM.
I think I'd do my own version of 'Brexit'.
I think history will look upon Cameron as the villain of the piece. A man who drove the country to austerity and pandered to small section of is own party to pose a ludicrous question that never made sense as a single vote to the British public.
I'm mildly happy that, even just for a brief moment, Johnson is out of the British government and Gove is not the secretary for brexit as some were suggesting was possible late last night. Thank f**k for that.
Politicians have an incredible talent for self-preservation. I wouldn't underestimate May's ability to navigate this. She's a post ideological politician anyway, she'll floats like the wind, happy to ride a shit storm.
I think history will look upon Cameron as the villain of the piece. A man who drove the country to austerity and pandered to small section of is own party to pose a ludicrous question that never made sense as a single vote to the British public.
I'm mildly happy that, even just for a brief moment, Johnson is out of the British government and Gove is not the secretary for brexit as some were suggesting was possible late last night. Thank f**k for that.
Politicians have an incredible talent for self-preservation. I wouldn't underestimate May's ability to navigate this. She's a post ideological politician anyway, she'll floats like the wind, happy to ride a shit storm.
Oh clearly Cameron will get the stick he deserves - but dont forget he left May with a majority to do what she wanted - and what she wanted was to impose Brexit without involving parliament and had to be taken to court over it. That was planned to be a 'hard' Brexit and it was only the loss of that majority which stopped it. This Chequers' 'soft' Brexit proposal is no more than political opportunism to someone who has run out of options.
If Cameron was the worst Tory leader since Chamberlain - May is the worst Ever!
I reckon she will stick around to see what happens with the Trade & Customs Bills next week - but wouldn't be surprised if she went at the 1922 meeting tonight.
The Tory Party membership is about 80% hard Brexiteers so if May does go they will demand a Brexiteer leader. There is no way that a hard Brexit will get through Parliament. There has to be a general election.And that is why the swivel-eyed loons and the Brexit press were so rabidly against Parliament having a say on the final deal. A tiny number of Tory MPs and Tory members have hijacked Brexit and have tried to drive it in a very specific way that THEY want, but that the country never voted for. This is their last stand.
The Tory Party membership is about 80% hard Brexiteers so if May does go they will demand a Brexiteer leader. There is no way that a hard Brexit will get through Parliament. There has to be a general election.if there was a general election now what difference would it make? I doubt the result would be any different as I know so many labour voters that will not vote while Corbyn is leader, and even if they did win we would still be in the same position as we are now, labour have been calling for parliament to give a final say on brexit, unless they got a huge majority the Tory and labour brexiteers would just stop it going thru causing a no deal
Bringing his cool, collected, charming PR skills to international diplomacy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0PeN3fkzmQ
BPoolnot sure he is such a nice person thou bst is he not the same guy that wanted certain ira terrorists honoured and had a plaque of them or something in his office?
John McDonnell’s economic policies are textbook economics. There is nothing remotely dangerous about them. They are policies that Harold MacMillan would have been comfortable with.
It’s the Tory Party's Austerity economic which is the bizarre approach, unsupported by either theory or experience and deeply, deeply damaging to the country.
He might be great at the job but with views like his he should be nowhere near British politics, but everyone to there own
I wonder how different Britain's policies and future would have been without the untimely death of John Smith.
I'm sure that a lot of the mess would have been avoided.
Brexiteers, what's the ideal realistic Brexit you imagine?We've tried playing nice, with no result from Brussels.
How have we been playing nice? We haven't been playing at all yet. We've only just decided what rules we're going to play under and loads of the government resigned over it.Brexiteers, what's the ideal realistic Brexit you imagine?We've tried playing nice, with no result from Brussels.
Time to stop talking to them, put the effort into forging new relationships and trade deals with the rest of the globe.
f**k the eu, time for a hard brexit.
It's not the end of the world.
A semi brexit would be much worse.
Brexiteers, what's the ideal realistic Brexit you imagine?We've tried playing nice, with no result from Brussels.
Time to stop talking to them, put the effort into forging new relationships and trade deals with the rest of the globe.
f**k the eu, time for a hard brexit.
It's not the end of the world.
A semi brexit would be much worse.
Brexiteers, what's the ideal realistic Brexit you imagine?We've tried playing nice, with no result from Brussels.
Time to stop talking to them, put the effort into forging new relationships and trade deals with the rest of the globe.
f**k the eu, time for a hard brexit.
It's not the end of the world.
A semi brexit would be much worse.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles(https://media.giphy.com/media/jQmVFypWInKCc/giphy.gif)
Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
Thing is, opinions are like arseholes .
No one's opinion on this entire thread is right or wrong.
Just wish remoaners would respect the opinion of brexiteers.
After all, we voted in a democratic referendum.
Brexit means brexit, it was voted for.
If tgat means we have a hard brexit, bring it on.
Not sure what your getting at, are you suggesting if someone voted leave then you automatically won't respect their opinion?Thing is, opinions are like arseholes .
No one's opinion on this entire thread is right or wrong.
Just wish remoaners would respect the opinion of brexiteers.
After all, we voted in a democratic referendum.
Brexit means brexit, it was voted for.
If tgat means we have a hard brexit, bring it on.
We respect your right to have an opinion. It doesn't mean that everyone's opinion should be respected. For example, paedophiles have some very lively opinions - do you respect those at all?
Brexit means brexit, it was voted for.
Not sure what your getting at, are you suggesting if someone voted leave then you automatically won't respect their opinion?Thing is, opinions are like arseholes .
No one's opinion on this entire thread is right or wrong.
Just wish remoaners would respect the opinion of brexiteers.
After all, we voted in a democratic referendum.
Brexit means brexit, it was voted for.
If tgat means we have a hard brexit, bring it on.
We respect your right to have an opinion. It doesn't mean that everyone's opinion should be respected. For example, paedophiles have some very lively opinions - do you respect those at all?
All opinions aren't equal. That's just it. You have the right to express it, but when your opinion isn't backed up by anything how can you expect people to respect it? Why should they? If I voice my opinion that Rovers are shit and my argument is because they lost every game that season, you're quite within your rights to point at the league table and prove me wrong. If I carry on voicing that opinion with nothing to back it up, no one would respect that. Especially if all I did was tell everyone they were just moaning and they should get over it.Not sure what your getting at, are you suggesting if someone voted leave then you automatically won't respect their opinion?Thing is, opinions are like arseholes .
No one's opinion on this entire thread is right or wrong.
Just wish remoaners would respect the opinion of brexiteers.
After all, we voted in a democratic referendum.
Brexit means brexit, it was voted for.
If tgat means we have a hard brexit, bring it on.
We respect your right to have an opinion. It doesn't mean that everyone's opinion should be respected. For example, paedophiles have some very lively opinions - do you respect those at all?
Thing is, opinions are like arseholes .
No one's opinion on this entire thread is right or wrong.
Just wish remoaners would respect the opinion of brexiteers.
After all, we voted in a democratic referendum.
Brexit means brexit, it was voted for.
If tgat means we have a hard brexit, bring it oposition n.
Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
Just out of interest Sydney who decides which comments are worth anything?
Or, you could look at America, where the majority of people who vote Republican don't believe in evolution.I'd like to see the proof of your claim about the majority of republicans not believing in evolution.
They don;t believe in evolution, because they reject scientific theories and evidence, and believe the Bible.
Are their opinions equal to those who put forward scientific hypotheses which can be tested against evidence?
ok, so in your opinion (and that's all that it is)Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
You obviously don't have a clue what a " cliff edge " Brexit looks like even after all the warnings from every direction NOT just the Guardian which for some reason you have a problem with .
Brexit is far too complicated a subject to sit there and ignore the warnings coming from EVERY direction. If The CBI & The Unions agree about something being potentially catastrophic , then you should sit up and notice . Read what bloody people write, listen to what they say - you may not agree with everything but the warnings are writ large and they are coming from opposite directions ffs man how can you ignore them ?
They don't write or say these things for fun you know and when people like you ignore the experts, laugh at the statistics, guffaw at the warnings - then they have done their job on you !! The drip drip drip of propaganda from the mainstream press controlled by distant foreign owners with Far Right owners employing newspaper hacks with the same mentality have gradually anaethetised you and others from recognising the truth. All of this is NOT for your benefit but for those friends of theirs with interests only in breaking this country , cherry picking struggling businesses here , breaking down regulations and safety nets for workers and gradually taking a wrecking ball to our society and .......THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT ??
Why , how do you personally benefit ? Even the Tory Party are scared shitless about a hard/ cliff edge Brexit - that alone should make you very worried but does it , does it fook . You happily clap and breathe life into a scenario that can only have one ending disaster .
ok, so in your opinion (and that's all that it is)Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
You obviously don't have a clue what a " cliff edge " Brexit looks like even after all the warnings from every direction NOT just the Guardian which for some reason you have a problem with .
Brexit is far too complicated a subject to sit there and ignore the warnings coming from EVERY direction. If The CBI & The Unions agree about something being potentially catastrophic , then you should sit up and notice . Read what bloody people write, listen to what they say - you may not agree with everything but the warnings are writ large and they are coming from opposite directions ffs man how can you ignore them ?
They don't write or say these things for fun you know and when people like you ignore the experts, laugh at the statistics, guffaw at the warnings - then they have done their job on you !! The drip drip drip of propaganda from the mainstream press controlled by distant foreign owners with Far Right owners employing newspaper hacks with the same mentality have gradually anaethetised you and others from recognising the truth. All of this is NOT for your benefit but for those friends of theirs with interests only in breaking this country , cherry picking struggling businesses here , breaking down regulations and safety nets for workers and gradually taking a wrecking ball to our society and .......THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT ??
Why , how do you personally benefit ? Even the Tory Party are scared shitless about a hard/ cliff edge Brexit - that alone should make you very worried but does it , does it fook . You happily clap and breathe life into a scenario that can only have one ending disaster .
What would be the worse tgat would happen with a hard brexit?
BoomstickSo because republicans go to church , they 'doubt' evolution?
I don’t know who you usually discuss things with, but personally, I don’t make claims without having supporting evidence.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/27847/majority-republicans-doubt-theory-evolution.aspx
I asked for his opinion.ok, so in your opinion (and that's all that it is)Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
You obviously don't have a clue what a " cliff edge " Brexit looks like even after all the warnings from every direction NOT just the Guardian which for some reason you have a problem with .
Brexit is far too complicated a subject to sit there and ignore the warnings coming from EVERY direction. If The CBI & The Unions agree about something being potentially catastrophic , then you should sit up and notice . Read what bloody people write, listen to what they say - you may not agree with everything but the warnings are writ large and they are coming from opposite directions ffs man how can you ignore them ?
They don't write or say these things for fun you know and when people like you ignore the experts, laugh at the statistics, guffaw at the warnings - then they have done their job on you !! The drip drip drip of propaganda from the mainstream press controlled by distant foreign owners with Far Right owners employing newspaper hacks with the same mentality have gradually anaethetised you and others from recognising the truth. All of this is NOT for your benefit but for those friends of theirs with interests only in breaking this country , cherry picking struggling businesses here , breaking down regulations and safety nets for workers and gradually taking a wrecking ball to our society and .......THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT ??
Why , how do you personally benefit ? Even the Tory Party are scared shitless about a hard/ cliff edge Brexit - that alone should make you very worried but does it , does it fook . You happily clap and breathe life into a scenario that can only have one ending disaster .
What would be the worse tgat would happen with a hard brexit?
No! It’s NOT just about opinions. The Govt (which is leading us to Brexit, and which has said that a no deal Brexit is a possibility) has conducted economic forecasts of the effect. The prediction was that GDP would fall by 8% if we leave without a deal and revert to WTO trading rules.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/hit-to-northern-ireland-and-north-east-england-gdp-revealed-in-new-brexit-impact-papers-leak-11240254
8* of GDP is about £250bn if lost wealth.
Every year.
Just stop for a moment and take that in.
That’s £4000 for every single person in the country.
Lost.
Every year.
And that’s not an opinion. It is a prediction by the leading Govt economists.
Then you thought wrong. As you do on pretty much every topic that you post on here.
I am horrified at the thought of us as a country (big businesses, small businesses, all of us) losing money on that scale.
What are you blathering on about.I'm sorry, but what are you blithering on about?
Just over halfway down that page.
68% of people polled who identified as Republican supporters said they did not believe in evolution. 30% did.
Then you thought wrong. As you do on pretty much every topic that you post on here.So how much do you think the individual person would lose ? and how?
I am horrified at the thought of us as a country (big businesses, small businesses, all of us) losing money on that scale.
Boomstick.So how did they come to that conclusion when the questions asked weren't specific to any party ?
Go and look again. It’s there. Bar chart just over halfway down the page.
Because they asked the respondents which party they supported.where does it say they asked the respondents which party they supported ?
Look. You can convince yourself this is all b*llocks if it makes you feel better, but this is borne out by poll after poll after poll. Different numbers in different polls but always the same take-home - more Republicans believe that God created humans and others in their current form and evolution played no role. Plus a significant number of the ones who DO believe evolution happened think it did because God has been guiding it
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/12/why-has-republican-belief-in-evolution-declined-so-much/282730/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/03/republican-views-on-evolution-tracking-how-its-changed/
https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/poll-49-percent-republicans-do-not-believe-evolution
There are similar results for global warming.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2016/oct/06/pew-survey-republicans-are-rejecting-reality-on-climate-change
The picture is clear. A LOT of Republicans don't accept scientific research and instead want to be told that their gut beliefs are correct.
Because they asked the respondents which party they supported.where does it say they asked the respondents which party they supported ?
Look. You can convince yourself this is all b*llocks if it makes you feel better, but this is borne out by poll after poll after poll. Different numbers in different polls but always the same take-home - more Republicans believe that God created humans and others in their current form and evolution played no role. Plus a significant number of the ones who DO believe evolution happened think it did because God has been guiding it
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/12/why-has-republican-belief-in-evolution-declined-so-much/282730/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/03/republican-views-on-evolution-tracking-how-its-changed/
https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/poll-49-percent-republicans-do-not-believe-evolution
There are similar results for global warming.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2016/oct/06/pew-survey-republicans-are-rejecting-reality-on-climate-change
The picture is clear. A LOT of Republicans don't accept scientific research and instead want to be told that their gut beliefs are correct.
I asked for his opinion.ok, so in your opinion (and that's all that it is)Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
You obviously don't have a clue what a " cliff edge " Brexit looks like even after all the warnings from every direction NOT just the Guardian which for some reason you have a problem with .
Brexit is far too complicated a subject to sit there and ignore the warnings coming from EVERY direction. If The CBI & The Unions agree about something being potentially catastrophic , then you should sit up and notice . Read what bloody people write, listen to what they say - you may not agree with everything but the warnings are writ large and they are coming from opposite directions ffs man how can you ignore them ?
They don't write or say these things for fun you know and when people like you ignore the experts, laugh at the statistics, guffaw at the warnings - then they have done their job on you !! The drip drip drip of propaganda from the mainstream press controlled by distant foreign owners with Far Right owners employing newspaper hacks with the same mentality have gradually anaethetised you and others from recognising the truth. All of this is NOT for your benefit but for those friends of theirs with interests only in breaking this country , cherry picking struggling businesses here , breaking down regulations and safety nets for workers and gradually taking a wrecking ball to our society and .......THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT ??
Why , how do you personally benefit ? Even the Tory Party are scared shitless about a hard/ cliff edge Brexit - that alone should make you very worried but does it , does it fook . You happily clap and breathe life into a scenario that can only have one ending disaster .
What would be the worse tgat would happen with a hard brexit?
No! It’s NOT just about opinions. The Govt (which is leading us to Brexit, and which has said that a no deal Brexit is a possibility) has conducted economic forecasts of the effect. The prediction was that GDP would fall by 8% if we leave without a deal and revert to WTO trading rules.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/hit-to-northern-ireland-and-north-east-england-gdp-revealed-in-new-brexit-impact-papers-leak-11240254
8* of GDP is about £250bn if lost wealth.
Every year.
Just stop for a moment and take that in.
That’s £4000 for every single person in the country.
Lost.
Every year.
And that’s not an opinion. It is a prediction by the leading Govt economists.
What's yours?
thought as a leftie, you wouldn't be too concerned with big businesses losing wealth?
Why are you Broomstick arguing about evolution is it avoid " the Brexit means Brexit " question perhaps ?
still no answer ?I asked for his opinion.ok, so in your opinion (and that's all that it is)Not even gonna bother clicking on the link to that biased rag.
Think months and months of negotiations from our government has been enough.
The eu are just making things difficult, after all if tgey made it easy, everyone would want out.
A semi brexit isn't what the country voted for, can't strike a deal?
Hard brexit then. Simples.
Fair play to johnson and Davies, for sticking to their principles and resigning.
You obviously don't have a clue what a " cliff edge " Brexit looks like even after all the warnings from every direction NOT just the Guardian which for some reason you have a problem with .
Brexit is far too complicated a subject to sit there and ignore the warnings coming from EVERY direction. If The CBI & The Unions agree about something being potentially catastrophic , then you should sit up and notice . Read what bloody people write, listen to what they say - you may not agree with everything but the warnings are writ large and they are coming from opposite directions ffs man how can you ignore them ?
They don't write or say these things for fun you know and when people like you ignore the experts, laugh at the statistics, guffaw at the warnings - then they have done their job on you !! The drip drip drip of propaganda from the mainstream press controlled by distant foreign owners with Far Right owners employing newspaper hacks with the same mentality have gradually anaethetised you and others from recognising the truth. All of this is NOT for your benefit but for those friends of theirs with interests only in breaking this country , cherry picking struggling businesses here , breaking down regulations and safety nets for workers and gradually taking a wrecking ball to our society and .......THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT ??
Why , how do you personally benefit ? Even the Tory Party are scared shitless about a hard/ cliff edge Brexit - that alone should make you very worried but does it , does it fook . You happily clap and breathe life into a scenario that can only have one ending disaster .
What would be the worse tgat would happen with a hard brexit?
No! It’s NOT just about opinions. The Govt (which is leading us to Brexit, and which has said that a no deal Brexit is a possibility) has conducted economic forecasts of the effect. The prediction was that GDP would fall by 8% if we leave without a deal and revert to WTO trading rules.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/hit-to-northern-ireland-and-north-east-england-gdp-revealed-in-new-brexit-impact-papers-leak-11240254
8* of GDP is about £250bn if lost wealth.
Every year.
Just stop for a moment and take that in.
That’s £4000 for every single person in the country.
Lost.
Every year.
And that’s not an opinion. It is a prediction by the leading Govt economists.
What's yours?
thought as a leftie, you wouldn't be too concerned with big businesses losing wealth?
Broomstick- I'm not wasting any more time answering your 2 line sentences - we have in this the longest thread ever statistic after statistic , from Govt. sources. It's plain to see that you don't consider anything that might contradict your opinions - look through these pages I and many others have supplied you with all the relevant material for you to consider. I believe you haven't looked at even 1 of them properly.
Now if you don't want to be treated like a village idiot - explain to me what you mean by ..........
BREXIT MEANS BREXIT ?
ok, so in your opinion (and that's all that it is)
What would be the worse case would happen with a hard brexit?
ok, so in your opinion (and that's all that it is)
What would be the worse case would happen with a hard brexit?
8% drop in GDP and £4000 per person the worst thing that could happen with a hard Brexit, really? Really, are you sure?
It may have escaped people's notice, not surprising seeing as there is a heck of a lot going on, that there has been several nights or rioting in Derry/Londonderry this week. Petrol bombs thrown and then last night shots were fired at the police. There doesn't appear to be any one single reason for the trouble although it appears somebody thinks an old people's home is in he wrong place.
I don't know how old you are or if you remember 'the troubles' Boomstick but there are several ex-service personel on this forum who can tell you what it was like serving there. And whether or not they would like to go back there - or send their or someone else's children there. I could tell you what it is like to find out the train that came into the station after yours was blown up. Or maybe stop and have a read of the memorial in Hartshead services the next time you go along the M62.
What's the worst that can happen with a hard Brexit - a bomb on the mainland is worth 10 in Northern Ireland.
[/ Bad times agreed but not sure brexit will be the only reason, I'm sure john McDonald will want any bombers knighted, what do you think bst?
Blackpool....so the tories are going to ruin the country because of brexit what a warped mind you have!
It's obvious however that Sinn Fein and other Irish Parties are agitating after the Brexit result and see an opportunity to realise a united Ireland. Brexit has relit this dream and it only takes hotheads from either side to escalate things , want into any of the smuggling that will inevitably take place to fund their cause and- we are back swiftly to the troubles.
Those troubles inevitably would spill out onto the mainland .
N.Ireland, contrary to what many Brexiteers think, is not easily resolved once that Pandora's box is re-opened. If you, like other Brexiters I speak to, think it's a tool that the EU are using to screw the UK then think again. That peace was not won easily and I'm sure McDonnell, as much as I dislike the man, would never countenance the knighting of bombers . What a warped perception of people you have !what did he apologiseBlackpool....
It's obvious however that Sinn Fein and other Irish Parties are agitating after the Brexit result and see an opportunity to realise a united Ireland. Brexit has relit this dream and it only takes hotheads from either side to escalate things , want into any of the smuggling that will inevitably take place to fund their cause and- we are back swiftly to the troubles.
Those troubles inevitably would spill out onto the mainland .
N.Ireland, contrary to what many Brexiteers think, is not easily resolved once that Pandora's box is re-opened. If you, like other Brexiters I speak to, think it's a tool that the EU are using to screw the UK then think again. That peace was not won easily and I'm sure McDonnell, as much as I dislike the man, would never countenance the knighting of bombers . What a warped perception of people you have !
This was all eminently clear when she lost her majority and mandate at the last election. But shr trundled along regardless.That was different. She could continue in Denial Mode. Something might have turned up. Plus, she was a useful lightning conductor for the rest of the party. She had f**ked up tgeir position and no one wanted to be responsible for sorting out the mess.
Now it’s different. There’s no time for anything to turn up to save her. Her pride and her reputation and her position in the history books are all irrevocably destroyed. She thought she could control the destructive centripetal forces in the Tory party but they have destroyed her. She has nothing left.
Word is that as we speak, she’s being given an ultimatum by Brexit supporting MPs: Dutch the Chequers agreement and go for something harder or we are ousting you.
Her authority and her self-respect are in pieces. What is the point in her agreeing to an ultimatum like that, knowing that it would be rejected either by Brussels or by Parliament? Far better to gather what pride you have left and be the mistress of your own destiny.
The smuggling is still going on and has been for years - where do you think the majority of the money raised from selling smuggling fags goes? Across the Irish Sea, that's where. There's been many a time I've listened with interest when I've been in pubs with some of the local hard men talking about 'no surrender' when they were smoking the fags that funded the IRA.
Wilts and Hoola
My opinion for what it is worth.
Having lived in Northern Ireland for 5 years now, and talking to people over here, I don’t think anyone believes that the old troubles will return at the level they were before. It has to be remembered that when the Troubles started in 1969 there was real discrimination and inequality for Catholics, so they had a real cause, and consequently their paramilitaries had wide support from their communities. Loyalist paramilitaries also had similar support from their communities. The drastically improved peaceful situation over the last 20 years means no communities want to go back the the all out violence, and IMHO it really is a few hotheads unsupported by their communities these days. Also there is always tension in the marching season, not only L/Derry but also Belfast has seen problems. In Belfast bonfires have gotten completely out of hand with respect to size and proximity to residential buildings, and there has been a reaction by other hotheads to the authorities trying to curb this.
Brexit has put political wind in republican’s sails, but the lack of devolved parliament here was due to a row over a botched renewable heating scheme, not Brexit. Also IMHO, a lack of the right personalities in senior positions is letting us down. I never thought I would ever say it, but we miss Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley Senior and their surprising good personal chemistry.
It is interesting that republicans voted by about 80-20 to remain, keeping the North close to RoI. Most Unionists only thought would have been to vote against anything wanted by Republicans, so voted leave by about 60-40.
I think it is fair to say all parties in NI are worried about Brexit’s negative effect on trade, tourism and investment, all of which are at levels not dreamed about 20 years ago. The film industry, led by Game of Thrones, is now a major factor over here.
Another thing unifying everyone here is that absolutely everyone is annoyed that all Uk politicians have ignored, minimised, underestimated the problem of the continued open border outside of Customs Union and Single market.
Just my own feelings on the ground over here.
The smuggling is still going on and has been for years - where do you think the majority of the money raised from selling smuggling fags goes? Across the Irish Sea, that's where. There's been many a time I've listened with interest when I've been in pubs with some of the local hard men talking about 'no surrender' when they were smoking the fags that funded the IRA.
They only have to sit tight, it's not going to be long before the Catholics become the majority.
Glyn thanks for that correction it did read as if it would be starting up but what I meant to indicate was that there would be an acceleration in the process at a time when some might think of pressing for that ultimate dream of a United Ireland . I think they used to label it somewhat affectionately " runs for guns ".
There never has been a better time with some disaffected young Protestants possibly more pro- Remain and perhaps more open to the idea of a " United Ireland " than their Protestant communities would care to admit ! Certainly the Catholics would appear to have the numbers if a push for a Referendum began.
Bst while you may be right as I’ve said in other posts John McDonell wanted a certain people in the ira to be given honours, why don’t you want rid of him? It baffles me while may might be incompetent she is nothing like him, if you can support him thank god I don’t live in your world
Apart from Idler, I have still not read any other Brexiteer explain their reason or a reason that makes any sense or a reason that stands scrutiny, why Britain should leave the EU.So what's your opinion on the worse case scenario when we leave?
It's this lack of being able to articulate a sensible position for themselves or the country that makes me wonder if there is an underlying reason they don't wish to openly discuss or that they are embarrassed about being duped and made to look like complete and utter idiots by the likes of Farago and his ilk and they feel they cannot now change their positions.
Hi Hools
I think any effect within Unionists that you describe is currently more than counter-balanced by the fact that far from all Catholics want a United Ireland. I’ll see if I can find the source later, but in a recent poll a majority of people in Northern Ireland were against a so called ‘Border Poll’, and surprisingly few Nationalists (less than 70% I think) wanted the poll. Nevertheless there is definitely the feel of a demographic ticking time-bomb.
Right now I am more annoyed at the President of the USA interfering in our politics to an unacceptable degree, whatever the failings of our current leader and party. I wonder where Trump learned that from?
Edit: An article (there are many more) on the Poll I was referring to. Your comments are not wrong in that the type of Brexit is seen as an issue, but indeed not all Nationalists are united on this.
https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/05/21/border-poll-recedes-as-polls-show-nationalist-support-for-unity-hinges-on-brexit-outcome/
Boomstick
Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.
When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?
Boomstick
Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.
When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?
Billy he probably parachutes out .
There’s no question that he’s repeating Farage’s lies about UK politics. They are two peas in a pod and big buddies. Not least because Farage was one of the ones who smoothed the path between Trump and the Russians.
There was an example a few weeks ago of Farage making some outrageous lie about the NHS on Fox News. Within a couple of hours, Trump was repeating the same lie.
Boomstick
Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.
When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?
Billy he probably parachutes out .
Not without asking everyone for their opinion of the workmanship of the parachute maker!
Boomstickwhy not answer the question?
Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.
When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?
Almost as if you don't want people to take you seriously...
Boomstickwhy not answer the question?
Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.
When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?
Just trying to understand the remoaner side of the argument.
Bst while you may be right as I’ve said in other posts John McDonell wanted a certain people in the ira to be given honours, why don’t you want rid of him? It baffles me while may might be incompetent she is nothing like him, if you can support him thank god I don’t live in your world
Not really sure how any of this is to do with Brexit.
Bst while you may be right as I’ve said in other posts John McDonell wanted a certain people in the ira to be given honours, why don’t you want rid of him? It baffles me while may might be incompetent she is nothing like him, if you can support him thank god I don’t live in your world
Not really sure how any of this is to do with Brexit.
You are quite correct Blackpool in that yes McDonnell did call for for former IRA men to be honoured. What you appear to have missed though is that he has has said he was wrong and has apologised for saying it on several ocassions since.
And yes again you are correct he is very different to May. For instance he has not deported dozens of British pensioners, removing their pensions rights and leaving them with no means of supporting themselves in the process, to countries they never lived or last lived in as infants. Nor has he allowed the sale of munitions in the knowledge they would be passed on to terrorist groups including ISIS.
And yes it does have to do with Brexit in that McDonnell has constantly warned against any sort of Brexit deal (or no-deal) that imposes a border in Ireland. As he knows the possible/probable risks that will bring and he does not want to see a return to violence on the island. Again as you say, he appears to know a bit about what goes on there.
You and Mrs May (lest we forget no deal is still better than a bad deal) appear to think these warnings are fake and there is nothing to worry about. John McDonnell is backed up in his concerns by the Police Service of Northern Ireland - who are you backed up by? Boomstick & Jacob Rees Mogg?
Thanks to Dutch Uncle for your views on the situation. My somewhat more pessimistic point of view is that the there are clearly people in NI who will use any small point of tension for their own gain. It's 6 nights of rioting in Derry now, cars and buses burnt out and a bomb thrown in Belfast. Who knows where that might go?
On a united Ireland, this poll, which is later than your Dutch, appears to suggest more people in the north now support it than they do staying in the UK.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-united-ireland-referendum-northern-border-uk-yougov-poll-a8389086.html
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!
Move on poolie please , I have a lot of sympathy with your stance on this matter but I think you have now made your point in the strongest terms .
There are many MPS and MEPS that have far more baggage in terms of previous statements made, beliefs held etc....
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!
You had best tell that to the people who voted for him.
You should also concentrate your mind on matters which are far more important to people in the UK (NI in particular) today and have a good think on what the consequences of your views are.
Wilts & Hoola
Many thanks for your responses re Northern Ireland, and by the way I was not correcting anyone, just giving an opinion. I hadn’t seen the more recent poll which is indeed alarming from my point of view.
I am by nature easily alarmed by such things, despite all the reassuring by my wife, her family and friends over here. But we live in Bangor, sufficiently far from the current fault lines, and maybe we are a bit complacent.
My gut feeling is that as the spectre of hard or no deal Brexit increases (be it for real or for negotiating purposes) then confidence in an open border and soft Brexit erodes, meaning more people are starting to think a United Ireland is a better idea. Nevertheless I stand by my opinion that the level of community support for province wide coordinated violence is simply no longer there, and although things can spiral quickly, no-one wants to return to that.
It will be interesting to see what happens after the 12th fortnight marching season disappears in the rear view mirror. If things do not quieten down I will be less complacent for sure.
I would be interested in the views of anyone else on here who lives in or regularly visits Northern Ireland.
Edit: P.S. Many thanks, but I am most definitely not ‘statistician in chief’ on here - in my eyes that title is strictly reserved for The Red Baron.
A bit like brexit which is what people voted for but your not saying that's ok?
A bit like brexit which is what people voted for but your not saying that's ok?
There you go again Blackpool, distorting and twisting the conversation to your own view, we have established beyond doubt that those voting to leave have been deceived and humiliated by various nefarious entities od which gave an honest appraisal of the real picture even if they could. Which is why May doesnt know her arse from her elbow when it comes to which idiot to back in her own party.
A bit like brexit which is what people voted for but your not saying that's ok?
There you go again Blackpool, distorting and twisting the conversation to your own view, we have established beyond doubt that those voting to leave have been deceived and humiliated by various nefarious entities od which gave an honest appraisal of the real picture even if they could. Which is why May doesnt know her arse from her elbow when it comes to which idiot to back in her own party.
Sadly despite all the warnings , statistics and comments on these 63 pages bpool and others still continue to peddle their nonsense ( rarely if ever based on facts ) ; what's more they continue when asked a direct question to answer with a daft question. It is obvious what we Remainers would do , we would keep what we've got with a view that our leaders would fight for change where necessary. Those same leaders would actually use the sensible powers they currently don't exercise over our immigration policy and in other areas of contention seeking to resolve these issues with the help of others where possible.
My personal hope, as an avowed Europhile, was ALWAYS that our voice in Europe would be a constructive one at every level , particularly at MEP level - an area of governance that was sadly misused .
Years of poor representation followed , when increasingly our UKIP MEPs, in particular, sought to fight and destroy the EU rather than look after the interests of 100% of their electorate responsibly .
I 'get' that there were intrinsic weaknesses in the EU project however those weaknesses were always far far outweighed by all the good that has been brought to the people of Europe - peace, prosperity, stability, ease of trade and movement of people for work, pleasure and retirement.
Underpinning all of the above was a structure no less accountable, democratic or unwieldy than our own governed by a rule of law and decent standards that we can all recognise .
Against this I ask once again " Leavers " you offer what exactly ?
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?You may have to give us a few more details and try and separate what you mean from what you want. If you want Britain free to do deals with those outside the EU without breaking contracts with the EU then you/we lose everything we now gain from being partners with the richest trading block in the world. Go ahead tell us what you want.
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EUwhat are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
A question about the bottom link Sydney, now those figures might be right I have no idea but how can they be perticulary accurate when no 1 knows what trade deals we will or won’t get?
An interesting intervention from a Tory Remainer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154
Although I think her idea of a three-option Referendum is for the birds, I do accept her point that there doesn't appear to be a consensus in Parliament for any option. In that case some kind of Referendum on the final deal agreed with the EU might be the only way to break the log-jam.
Although the options would have to be binary. Leave with the deal or Leave with No Deal or, Leave with the deal or Remain.
If it isn't binary it will cause a lot of confusion and probably will end up with a three-way split. I would have thought Remainers would be more likely to vote for the least-worst option. It's the Leavers who are more likely to call for boycotts (just because it's a second vote that we were told wouldn't happen).
It is probably not going to happen but until there is some sort of consensus in Parliament around what deal is acceptable, I can't see a lot of alternatives. Maybe we will end up with No-Deal Brexit simply because no-one can agree on an alternative.
What would happen if people voted leave with no deal would you accept that thou or demand a 3rd referendum?
Where do you draw the line thou Dutch,if it is a vote remain on the 2nd vote are the vote leave then entitled to a final vote?
Switzerland have regular referendums, even sometimes having ones to undo what they did if they realise they've f**ked up. To the people who say that a second vote would be undemocratic - is Switzerland an undemocratic nation?
It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
What would happen if people voted leave with no deal would you accept that thou or demand a 3rd referendum?
Ok mate sorry I must misunderstood, so you would accept it if the public voted to leave with a no deal? Out of interest why would you when you have not the 1st one?
It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?
The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213
It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?
The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213
Wilts, you're confusing 'trading with' with 'having a trade deal with'. They aren't the same thing.
It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?
The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213
Wilts, you're confusing 'trading with' with 'having a trade deal with'. They aren't the same thing.
It's much more your area of expertise than mine Glyn but the deals Germany and China did last week are being called trade deals.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-china/with-raft-of-deals-china-and-germany-swear-to-keep-trade-free-idUSKBN1JZ0VM
As were the deals May came back with in February
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-china-britain/may-gets-9-billion-pounds-in-china-deals-xi-promises-to-build-on-golden-era-idUKKBN1FM0G0
What would happen if people voted leave with no deal would you accept that thou or demand a 3rd referendum?
I think this is a really valid question - how many times do we need to re-run a referendum, until will give the answer the government of day wants?
I do think that Padge, Blackpool and the other Brexiteers have a reason to be agrieved, they voted Leave, thought they had won a majority and now see it's not going the way they wanted. The reason for that of course is the other point Greening made, that the government doesnt want a hard Brexit, and even if they did it wouldn't get through parliament.
I cant see how any further referendum will change that. Unless the party that 'win's the referendum gets to carry it out, there will still be an impasse.
There has to be a general election. Each party gets to put their agenda and plan to the public, we all get to vote for the party we think has the best plan. If one part wins a majority so be it, they get to implement that plan. If there is no overall majority (as now) it should be a national coalition.
Agree with bst on the general election there is a fair chance the result would be the same as last time so we would be in the same position, maybe people are right have another referendum but just have walk away or remain and whoever wins just accept the result
It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?
The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213
as they can't come to a agreement after all this time no I think if there was to be a 2nd referendum there should be 2 options otherwise we will be in the same positionAgree with bst on the general election there is a fair chance the result would be the same as last time so we would be in the same position, maybe people are right have another referendum but just have walk away or remain and whoever wins just accept the result
What about those who want a soft Brexit, doesn't their opinion matter?
Also say there was 3 options and 29 percent voted for a hard brexit 31 for a soft brexit and 40 percent for no brexit who would win?
If people still vote to leave knowing what's on the table then you can't argue with it. But at the end of the day, some people voted to Leave thinking that we would automatically withdraw the day after the vote if we voted to go, some thought that we would be guaranteed a Norway model, some thought we'd get our own special deal. People had no idea what they were voting for if they voted to leave. If they know what they're voting for, and still vote to leave as a majority, then you can't argue with it.
If people in the future decide they've f**ked up and want to get back in, then you can't really argue with that either, if there's appetite to go back on the decision. But at the moment the whole negotiation process has been a f**king shambles and if we leave with a shit deal or no deal we'll be in the shit.
Yes trade deals. Much lower tariffs or none at all. Making each other’s goods to buy from each other more appealing and paying less for it. Which we cannot do until leaving the EU basically.
I’m not going to lie and hide it I also voted so we could control immigration. There I said it and some people darent because of being called a racist. However having said that it’s harder for the Indian doctor to come to the UK than the jobless Frenchman come to the Uk.
I see that’s one of May’s latest things she will still give preference to EU citizens over the rest of the world.
Yes trade deals. Much lower tariffs or none at all. Making each other’s goods to buy from each other more appealing and paying less for it. Which we cannot do until leaving the EU basically.
I’m not going to lie and hide it I also voted so we could control immigration. There I said it and some people darent because of being called a racist. However having said that it’s harder for the Indian doctor to come to the UK than the jobless Frenchman come to the Uk.
I see that’s one of May’s latest things she will still give preference to EU citizens over the rest of the world.
Also say there was 3 options and 29 percent voted for a hard brexit 31 for a soft brexit and 40 percent for no brexit who would win?
I presume if you used the model Justine Greening is proposing you would then count second preferences, suitably weighted. Although it might not produce anything more convincing than your scenario.
That is the difficulty with a second referendum. It may well produce a different result to the first one, but the numbers might not be all that different. Anyone for another 52/48 split?
Also say there was 3 options and 29 percent voted for a hard brexit 31 for a soft brexit and 40 percent for no brexit who would win?
In a lot of the areas that voted leave people are on benefits,people then say they will be worse off but it's not true, they will be no better off de no worse off nothing will change, what would you say to them to get them to change there vote? In certain areas like Blackpool south many jobs are taken up by polish ect. Who come to Blackpool for the season then go home in winter, why will voting remain benefit them?
I'm going off what Justine greening said, have 3 options soft brexit hard brexit remain, I think that's what the idea was unless I'm mistaken
For me that would not be fair thou as the only 2 outcomes could be a remain or a
soft brexit and as no1 can agree on a soft brexit it would be better a straight in or out that way there can be none of this you don't no what you voted for
For me that would not be fair thou as the only 2 outcomes could be a remain or a
soft brexit and as no1 can agree on a soft brexit it would be better a straight in or out that way there can be none of this you don't no what you voted for
I think so but you can correct me, you would vote for what you want then make a second choice? So remainers would vote no leave and as a second choice vote soft brexit I could be wrong and am sure you will correct me
The soft brexit is not going to work as no1 can agree on it so I don't see the need for it, remainers have long said that people didn't no what they were voting for, have a simple
Vote in or out, Surely you would be happy with that compared to where we are now?
Going by what you have said as we have already had the vote people either want a
Soft brexit or a no deal or does that not count because it does not suit you
I personally would go hard brexit simply for the fact that there not going to agree on anything, if could they did then I would be open to changing my mind
That's akin to setting fire to the house you want to buy because you're arguing over a few grand's difference.
I was joking glyn If the vote was stay or no deal I would walk away, if the eu had accepted the little things Cameron asked for this could have been avoided
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
Blackpool has never said what he wants nor has Wilts or any of the other Brexiters, not one of them has said what they want and why they want it.
They cant do it because their reasons when examined wouldnt stand up to scrutiny, wouldnt make sense, every time they are asked they either ignore the question or change the subject.
66 pages of Brexit debate and they have still not articulted a reason.
Also say there was 3 options and 29 percent voted for a hard brexit 31 for a soft brexit and 40 percent for no brexit who would win?
I presume if you used the model Justine Greening is proposing you would then count second preferences, suitably weighted. Although it might not produce anything more convincing than your scenario.
That is the difficulty with a second referendum. It may well produce a different result to the first one, but the numbers might not be all that different. Anyone for another 52/48 split?
TRB will you really need that when many of those that didn't vote , realise it now matters . It's time the electorate as a whole were encouraged to vote ; there are over 12,000,000 votes not being cast out there. It still has to be a crash out or remain vote - we all know Article 50 could be torn up .
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
Blackpool has never said what he wants nor has Wilts or any of the other Brexiters, not one of them has said what they want and why they want it.
They cant do it because their reasons when examined wouldnt stand up to scrutiny, wouldnt make sense, every time they are asked they either ignore the question or change the subject.
66 pages of Brexit debate and they have still not articulted a reason.
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
Blackpool has never said what he wants nor has Wilts or any of the other Brexiters, not one of them has said what they want and why they want it.
They cant do it because their reasons when examined wouldnt stand up to scrutiny, wouldnt make sense, every time they are asked they either ignore the question or change the subject.
66 pages of Brexit debate and they have still not articulted a reason.
Sydney - please show me any post or comment that I have made which says I am a Brexiteer.
https://youtu.be/PPvRsLWlDXw
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
Blackpool has never said what he wants nor has Wilts or any of the other Brexiters, not one of them has said what they want and why they want it.
They cant do it because their reasons when examined wouldnt stand up to scrutiny, wouldnt make sense, every time they are asked they either ignore the question or change the subject.
66 pages of Brexit debate and they have still not articulted a reason.
Sydney - please show me any post or comment that I have made which says I am a Brexiteer.
I apologise if I am incorrect but, where do you stand, what do you want to happen, what is your preferred option?
Wilts I did warn Sydney further up the thread. Good question do you just play devil's advocate ?
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.no deals better than a bad deal.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
Blackpool has never said what he wants nor has Wilts or any of the other Brexiters, not one of them has said what they want and why they want it.
They cant do it because their reasons when examined wouldnt stand up to scrutiny, wouldnt make sense, every time they are asked they either ignore the question or change the subject.
66 pages of Brexit debate and they have still not articulted a reason.
Sydney - please show me any post or comment that I have made which says I am a Brexiteer.
I apologise if I am incorrect but, where do you stand, what do you want to happen, what is your preferred option?Wilts I did warn Sydney further up the thread. Good question do you just play devil's advocate ?
No not devil's advocate Hoola (I leave that to BB he's much better at that than I am!) but I try and comment factually rather than personally. Where I think Sydney has gone wrong is that he has seen me answering Padge's question and taken the question to be my point of view rather than my answer to it.
Where do I stand?
I have worked in Europe (as a bricklayer), been to university in Europe, travelled extensively in Europe, had friends from Europe come over to visit me (and taken them to watch Rovers) and spent a lot of time researching wars in Europe. Why anyone would think that they dont want these advantages for themselves is beyond me. It's madness the whole thing. The problem is you cant stop it and pretend the referendum didn't happen and there is very little evidence of people changing their minds.
What do I want to happen?
What is needed is a deal that most of the country can get behind but unfortunately the way May has gone about the negotiations so far has divided the country more and to date has come up with a deal that hardly anyone can get behind. There is no majority in Parliament for a hard Brexit or to crash out with No Deal but thats where the negotiations seem to be heading. My main concern is how Brexit is leading to the rise of the far-right in British politics and where that might lead.
What is my preferred option?
A General Election with each party stating directly and comprehensively what their position is. Then people know exactly what they are voting for. If one party gets a majority then they get to implement their plans. If they dont then a national government involving all the party's (who win seats) so they are all involved in it.
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.no deals better than a bad deal.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
at least then we can forge alliances and partnerships with the commonwealth and rest of the world.
too insular and protectionist of the eu to deny us this.
remoaners care little about the economics, its purely down to their political beliefs.
it's like believing in Britain isn't allowed, and we need a big brother to help us.
f**k that, I'm excited of what the world has on offer.
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.no deals better than a bad deal.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
at least then we can forge alliances and partnerships with the commonwealth and rest of the world.
too insular and protectionist of the eu to deny us this.
remoaners care little about the economics, its purely down to their political beliefs.
it's like believing in Britain isn't allowed, and we need a big brother to help us.
f**k that, I'm excited of what the world has on offer.
I get the impression that German car exporters are also quite chuffed at the opportunities the world has to offer.
We already HAVE those alliances as part of the EU! How are we going to get any better deals than a bloc of 27 other countries with half a billion people in it? Just by crossing our fingers and believing in Britain? Bolded part did make me chuckle though. Have you even made a single economic argument in this thread that wasn't either provably complete b*llocks or just "it'll be alright"?Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.no deals better than a bad deal.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
at least then we can forge alliances and partnerships with the commonwealth and rest of the world.
too insular and protectionist of the eu to deny us this.
remoaners care little about the economics, its purely down to their political beliefs.
it's like believing in Britain isn't allowed, and we need a big brother to help us.
f**k that, I'm excited of what the world has on offer.
but it's all ifs and buts with you remoaners.
there are no solid facts of what may or may not happen.
It's automatically the worse case economic scenario, to argue your ideology.
I prefer to embrace it, ITS HAPPENING.
the sooner remoaners realise this and come on board, we will all benefit
moaning and throwing your toys out of the pram achieves nothing, and helps no one, it just makes it harder than it should be.
let's look forward and forge a new pathway without the ball and chain of the eu around out necks.
onwards and upwards, rule Britannia.
Do I hate immigrants that much lol pretty pathetic bst really not once have I said I hate immigrants, just stick to living your life in your labour bubble bst, a pathetic comment, the answer to the rest of what you say is the minute we stand up and leave the talks are the time the eu will want to talk as a
No deal will cost them more than 500 billion
Ok then BPool. That was a deliberately provocative comment from me. But it’s because I’m very frustrated by this discussion.no deals better than a bad deal.
What, precisely DO you think justifies your support for a no deal Brexit?
at least then we can forge alliances and partnerships with the commonwealth and rest of the world.
too insular and protectionist of the eu to deny us this.
remoaners care little about the economics, its purely down to their political beliefs.
it's like believing in Britain isn't allowed, and we need a big brother to help us.
f**k that, I'm excited of what the world has on offer.
but it's all ifs and buts with you remoaners.
there are no solid facts of what may or may not happen.
It's automatically the worse case economic scenario, to argue your ideology.
I prefer to embrace it, ITS HAPPENING.
the sooner remoaners realise this and come on board, we will all benefit
moaning and throwing your toys out of the pram achieves nothing, and helps no one, it just makes it harder than it should be.
let's look forward and forge a new pathway without the ball and chain of the eu around out necks.
onwards and upwards, rule Britannia.
Well then, let's hear all of your solid facts about how much better off we're going to be. Economically.
Again, an astounding lack of substance.agreed, this whole thread is purely moaning and opinions
Boomstick
Pointless, I know, since you don’t engage with facts, but there are three really big established facts that HAVE happened as predicted after the vote.
1) The Pound dropped dramatically in value.
2) Inflation went up as a result.
3) GDP growth shrank, while the rest of the world was enjoying a boom.
2) means that we’ve all got poorer because prices have been rising faster than wages.
3) Means that we’ve missed out on a surge of wealth creation. As a result, we’re about £1000 per person poorer than we would have been if we’d seen the economic performance that France, Germany, USA, Holland, Australia etc have done since 2016.
This aren’t opinions. Dipshit. They are established facts.
but it's all ifs and buts with you remoaners.
there are no solid facts of what may or may not happen.
It's automatically the worse case economic scenario, to argue your ideology.
I prefer to embrace it, ITS HAPPENING.
the sooner remoaners realise this and come on board, we will all benefit
moaning and throwing your toys out of the pram achieves nothing, and helps no one, it just makes it harder than it should be.
let's look forward and forge a new pathway without the ball and chain of the eu around out necks.
onwards and upwards, rule Britannia.
Well then, let's hear all of your solid facts about how much better off we're going to be. Economically.
I have none, just like you have no facts about us being worse.
this whole thread is just remoaners whinging.
all im saying is that it's happening, and the sooner everyone in on board, the sooner we all benefit.
Boomstick
Pointless, I know, since you don’t engage with facts, but there are three really big established facts that HAVE happened as predicted after the vote.
1) The Pound dropped dramatically in value.
2) Inflation went up as a result.
3) GDP growth shrank, while the rest of the world was enjoying a boom.
2) means that we’ve all got poorer because prices have been rising faster than wages.
3) Means that we’ve missed out on a surge of wealth creation. As a result, we’re about £1000 per person poorer than we would have been if we’d seen the economic performance that France, Germany, USA, Holland, Australia etc have done since 2016.
This aren’t opinions. Dipshit. They are established facts.
id prefer if we continued this in person, and see if you call me dipshit to my face.
I stated my opinion, I'm allowed it.
I wasn't referring to what's gone on before, only what the future holds.
I suggest you calm down and wind your neck in.
Tell you what Boomstick. I've got a petrol car. On my way home today, I might stop off and put diesel in it. I know you're not supposed to according to these so-called experts, and all the facts I've learned up until now tell me it'll knacker my car, and most of the risks are obvious. But I'll do it anyway, because despite what's gone on before, you never know what the future holds. Maybe diesel will help my car run better.Boomstick
Pointless, I know, since you don’t engage with facts, but there are three really big established facts that HAVE happened as predicted after the vote.
1) The Pound dropped dramatically in value.
2) Inflation went up as a result.
3) GDP growth shrank, while the rest of the world was enjoying a boom.
2) means that we’ve all got poorer because prices have been rising faster than wages.
3) Means that we’ve missed out on a surge of wealth creation. As a result, we’re about £1000 per person poorer than we would have been if we’d seen the economic performance that France, Germany, USA, Holland, Australia etc have done since 2016.
This aren’t opinions. Dipshit. They are established facts.
id prefer if we continued this in person, and see if you call me dipshit to my face.
I stated my opinion, I'm allowed it.
I wasn't referring to what's gone on before, only what the future holds.
I suggest you calm down and wind your neck in.
Oh and Filo for starting this 66 page thread.......
Boomstickyour nothing but a BULLY that refuses to accept someone else has an opinion.
A couple of weeks ago, I suggested that you stop using stupid insults in this discussion. You ignored that suggestion and carried on. You started the insults and carried on using them.
Calling you “Dipshit” was very deliberately making a point. It’s frustrating isn’t it? Its insulting and it doesn’t help the discussion. You see?
Right. Shall we agree to discuss this civilly, cut out the stupid infantile insults and engage with facts instead?
It seems your take now is “Doesn’t matter if people made predictions and those predictions came true. I still don’t believe that their analysis is correct.” Great. So give us an argument beyond your belief as to why they are wrong and you are right.
Boomstickyour nothing but a BULLY that refuses to accept someone else has an opinion.
A couple of weeks ago, I suggested that you stop using stupid insults in this discussion. You ignored that suggestion and carried on. You started the insults and carried on using them.
Calling you “Dipshit” was very deliberately making a point. It’s frustrating isn’t it? Its insulting and it doesn’t help the discussion. You see?
Right. Shall we agree to discuss this civilly, cut out the stupid infantile insults and engage with facts instead?
It seems your take now is “Doesn’t matter if people made predictions and those predictions came true. I still don’t believe that their analysis is correct.” Great. So give us an argument beyond your belief as to why they are wrong and you are right.
I'm refusing to stoop to your level, your a non - entity.
you may have a small following on this poxy off topic Donny rovers forum, but that's it.
I'm off to engage with the real world, and not going to waste a second more of my time on you.
enjoy peddling your tripe to a handful of people on here, I'm off to fry bigger fish.
I see the Hyenas have been out in force again! Well done lads, that's another one gone leaving you all to wallow in the luxury of unopposed opinion.Yep, it's definitely us bloody remoaners that want an unopposed opinion when someone else runs off crying because people disagree with him.
Right.fair enough bst.
Apologies from me about descending to insults. That’s stupid and childish and I shouldn’t have done it.
Regarding opinions, it’s true that I don’t give value to many lay people’s opinions on this. Including my own, because it’s worthless. It’s too complex an issue to rely on opinions. Which is why I look at the worked out predictions of people whose job it is to look at these things. That’s different from an opinion.
If I’ve come across as a bully then I apologise for that too. That’s not the intention. I do get passionate on this because it’s the most important decision we’ll take in my lifetime. And as such, EVERYONE should be arguing and discussing this to make sure we get it right.
I want this country to be a success and all the indications are that we’re staring down the barrel of a disaster. No-one who studies Brexit seriously disputes that. So yeah, I argue hard. That’s what we should do. If there are strong arguments on the other side, I’ll listen to them. But I haven’t heard any in 2 years. Just vague assurances that it’ll be alright, compared to sober and detailed predictions of why it will not be alright.
But none of that justifies bullying. We need to be grown up enough to discuss this civilly and if I haven’t done, that’s a mistake.
Monsieur Non, the no-deal Brexiteers' greatest ally.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/michel-barniers-pointed-questions-point-to-no-deal/
May will call a second referendum...but not just yet.
A second vote gives her a get out of jail card when the negotiations do not offer a hard brexit.
The Rees Smuggers will have the whip hand unless May looks for wider endorsement for the outcome. If a second ref gives a no vote the carpet is pulled out from under the Rees Smuggers. If it shows another yes then its not her fault for what happens next.
The Tories could give her the bums rush.... but risk a general election from a very weak position.
All down to tactics in this poker game.
There’s the question that’s coming over the hill very quickly Glyn. Is Party affiliation more important than Brexit?
If you’re a Europhile Labour supporter, it’s a particularly hard question. Corbyn’s EU policy is a shambles that would collapse at the first step. He says he wants a deal that gets us out of the SM, out of THE CU but part of A CU. And he wants the outcome to be no worse than the current deal.
Baloney. That’s more wishful thinking than May.
So that approach simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Which means that a Labour Govt would be no better able to cut a sensible deal with the EU than a Tory Govt.
So what do you do as a Labour supporting Europhile? Do you support the party or the principle?
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
"Doncaster promoted to the Premier League"!
:laugh:
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
"Doncaster promoted to the Premier League"!
:laugh:
Nervous laugh?.
Resentment will build against such as Barnier and the EU, who will be portrayed in the media as wanting to punish the British People for voting out in the first place, and that if we stay in we will just be a side show from now on, with France and Germany calling the shots.
People will become more entrenched, and I do not think the remainers hope of another vote ( which I think we will not have ) will not be the open and shut case the remainers think it will be.
Yes I think you are right Selby. The Brexiteers will continue to refuse to take the blame for the consequences of their actions and continue to try and blame anyone else but themselves.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
"Doncaster promoted to the Premier League"!
:laugh:
Yes I think you are right Selby. The Brexiteers will continue to refuse to take the blame for the consequences of their actions and continue to try and blame anyone else but themselves.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america
The Guardian! :laugh:
I lost interest when he got to quoting the size of speed bumps in Burnley🤔
Lets face it a very high proportion of those who voted leave did so purely based on immigration and half of those thick buggers dont know who the EU members are.
What you people do is alienate people, statements like thick buggers and all that.
As for my fragile position Sydney, I voted to stay in along with the other sides silly buggers and mongs, there again I could always move to my place in Turkey and leave the squabble to sort it out.
I like to view it as an investment opportunity thick bugger and fragile as I am.
The day of the Brexit vote I lost probably two years of your income, it has been easy to get that, and more back since. some money people would like this to carry on for ever, they have made millions the thick buggers.
BST, where did I go wrong in accepting that the vote went against my decision and as a result, went in full support of the majority decision? Should I have said f**k democracy and demanded another vote? Should only Guardian readers have been allowed to vote?I dont speak for BST but if you did go wrong its not surprising with all the false claims and misinformation that has been peddalled around, and if your favourite media outlet/s the ones you get your information from has let you down by feeding you lies and rubbish it would be foolish to keep supporting them wouldnt you think? especially if they are deliberately attempting to deceive you. As for only The Guardian readers being allowed to vote, thats just another red herring and if by now you dont understand its editorial policy (its been around for 111 years) or dont want to then that is up to you, as many have said in the past, you cant argue with personal preference, but if it is pesonal preference you are claiming then you shouldnt expect others to either understand or agree with with your position.
What is your view on democracy?
What the f**k are you on about?
BB
This isn’t about Left vs right. It’s about honesty vs misinformation. The Times and Telegraph are on the Right but I don’t treat them with the contempt I have for the Mail. Because their journalism is honest, even if I don’t agree with their conclusions.
You know why I despise the Mail. I sent you a PM about it a few months ago. I’ll repeat it here for anyone who is interested. When you’ve seen their mendacity close up, it’s truly breathtaking.
3-4 years ago, the company that I run was involved in a major R&D project. The project involved 11 companies, universities and research institutes from across Europe: Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, Netherlands, UK, Greece, Sweden.
The project was part-funded by the EU and was to do with improving aviation security. Basically, we were designing a liner to fit inside the hold of an aircraft so that if a bomb got through security, we could contain the effect of it and give the plane a better chance of surviving.
The project was a great success. We designed a product that was lightweight, cost-effective, and worked. We got a lot of media attention. I was on TV explaining how it worked and showing some of the trials. We put out a press release which was faithfully reported by papers from (literally) Tokyo to Tehran to Tijuana.
And then there was the Mail.
They, alone of all the papers who reported the info in our press release, edited the information.
What did they edit? They removed every mention of the work being a trans-Europe collaboration. They removed every mention of the work being part-funded by the EU. Their edit gave the impression that this was a UK-run and UK-funded project.
That was disgusting. It was deliberately, wilfully and cynically misinforming and misleading their readers. I wrote a letter of complaint. They never answered it.
THAT is why I hate that f**king rag. Because they have manipulated news like that for generations. I’ve seen it close up and it stinks. They are not an honest newspaper. They are a propaganda machine.
The Guardian doesn’t do that. They make mistakes and they correct them. They have a political angle but they don’t deliberately misinform.
You equating the two shows how far down the f**king rabbit hole we are.
What the f**k are you on about?
BB
This isn’t about Left vs right. It’s about honesty vs misinformation. The Times and Telegraph are on the Right but I don’t treat them with the contempt I have for the Mail. Because their journalism is honest, even if I don’t agree with their conclusions.
You know why I despise the Mail. I sent you a PM about it a few months ago. I’ll repeat it here for anyone who is interested. When you’ve seen their mendacity close up, it’s truly breathtaking.
3-4 years ago, the company that I run was involved in a major R&D project. The project involved 11 companies, universities and research institutes from across Europe: Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, Netherlands, UK, Greece, Sweden.
The project was part-funded by the EU and was to do with improving aviation security. Basically, we were designing a liner to fit inside the hold of an aircraft so that if a bomb got through security, we could contain the effect of it and give the plane a better chance of surviving.
The project was a great success. We designed a product that was lightweight, cost-effective, and worked. We got a lot of media attention. I was on TV explaining how it worked and showing some of the trials. We put out a press release which was faithfully reported by papers from (literally) Tokyo to Tehran to Tijuana.
And then there was the Mail.
They, alone of all the papers who reported the info in our press release, edited the information.
What did they edit? They removed every mention of the work being a trans-Europe collaboration. They removed every mention of the work being part-funded by the EU. Their edit gave the impression that this was a UK-run and UK-funded project.
That was disgusting. It was deliberately, wilfully and cynically misinforming and misleading their readers. I wrote a letter of complaint. They never answered it.
THAT is why I hate that f**king rag. Because they have manipulated news like that for generations. I’ve seen it close up and it stinks. They are not an honest newspaper. They are a propaganda machine.
The Guardian doesn’t do that. They make mistakes and they correct them. They have a political angle but they don’t deliberately misinform.
You equating the two shows how far down the f**king rabbit hole we are.
It really is a sad indictment of the way our " supposed " free and balanced press has become . I'm not sure that as bad as this newspaper is and has been over the years, that it has come close to The Daily Express. ( or the now defunct News of The World ) .
I think though it's not just the lack of balance and in many cases the downright lies and exaggerations but the glaring omissions that probably annoy me the most. Where are the articles on the positives that the EU, and the Common Market before it, have brought to people's lives ? - there are glaring and deliberate holes in the UK - EU story . That, as BST has already stated, has occurred over 40 + years the drip, drip ,drip of negative press has helped to drive that wedge between our people and the concept
There was and is so much more information that could have been provided by this and the other rag.
Whilst I am typing this I'm surrounded by paperwork prepared by my daughter , her " selvforsørgelseserklaering " documentation in readiness for her year of further studies in Denmark. Erasmus + docs have been prepared to help widen her scope of the world all round the country other daring British youngsters will also be preparing their docs to travel/study in Europe and the World .
The constant " pinging " from her phone as she learns Danish not only reminds me that she will leaving home for 9- 12 months but has even prompted me to join her in her language studies rather than complain about it . Danish is a devil to get your head around - I wished I had started 6 months ago !
Study abroad or Erasmus + in this case has barely had a mention for years yet
why there hasn't been any news of this programme when '000s of our youngsters benefit from it each and every year ? That , like the above ( BST's experience ) is obvious - it has positive benefits for our citizens and for our workforce as these youngsters feed back into our society and to accentuate that positive would be anathema to the Daily Mail .
Yes they get an EU support grant but that money produces more rounded British and Europeans citizens that for many from disadvantaged backgrounds throughout the continent would never have been possible in the past.
The contacts that are made for future potential joint projects and a means to encourage the brightest from the continent to study at our unis are all to obvious. My fear is that she could be forced to come home early next year. My fear is that as we turn in on ourselves we narrow the opportunities for future generations .
That for many is a reality in an increasingly globalised world. However for us as a country " going global " - entails being increasingly isolationist in outlook.
The real sucker punch is that the EU has already beaten us to all those trade deals - if they tick off the USA we are " dead " in the water - the even more left behinds. Who to blame then ?
What the f**k are you on about?
What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to
What the f**k are you on about?
What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to
What? Who? I don't understand.
What the f**k are you on about?
What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to
What? Who? I don't understand.
Yes we know. You not understanding is your default reply.
Hoola you must have missed May's announcement in December (easily done as they were announcing the figures for the divorce bill & that problem over the Irish border came up) that Britain was commited to staying in the Erasmus programme until at least the end of the transition period, December 2020.
https://inews.co.uk/news/education/theresa-may-commits-britain-erasmus-student-exchange-2020/
Clearly like Euroatem, Europol, European Arrest Warrant, ESA, the Galileo project and the rest, Erasmus is an EU programme the government values and would like to stay part of but no deal means no deal on any of them.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-education/brexit-may-hurt-popular-erasmus-student-exchange-scheme-officials-say-idUSKBN1FJ2N1
What the f**k are you on about?
What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to
What? Who? I don't understand.
Yes we know. You not understanding is your default reply.
OK then Mr Wewewewewiggerly, you explain.
Hoola you must have missed May's announcement in December (easily done as they were announcing the figures for the divorce bill & that problem over the Irish border came up) that Britain was commited to staying in the Erasmus programme until at least the end of the transition period, December 2020.
https://inews.co.uk/news/education/theresa-may-commits-britain-erasmus-student-exchange-2020/
Clearly like Euroatem, Europol, European Arrest Warrant, ESA, the Galileo project and the rest, Erasmus is an EU programme the government values and would like to stay part of but no deal means no deal on any of them.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-education/brexit-may-hurt-popular-erasmus-student-exchange-scheme-officials-say-idUSKBN1FJ2N1
No I didn't miss it but the Daily Mail and Express have certainly missed May's aspirations . However any deal on Erasmus+ , even with a Transition/ Implementation period means that this is the last but one , at best or perhaps the end by March 2019.
I must admit , I had never heard of Euratom, the ESA and Galileo prior to the Referendum vote and very little about the European airspace, Medicines Agency and of course the vexing N.Ireland border conundrum of course I had heard about Erasmus + for personal reasons .
Other things I hadn't thought about were the RAF bases on Cyprus ( raised for the 1st time recently )
and the complexity of Gibraltar
So many unknowns to come out of the woodwork yet but apparently we ALL knew what we were voting for ........REALLY ? Even the campaigners didn't know until some things presented themselves . It's like a rotten apple .
No Mr Wewewiggerly, I want you to explain what Hoolahoop was on about, seeing as you obviously understand more than I do. Now get on with it man.
No Mr Wewewiggerly, I want you to explain what Hoolahoop was on about, seeing as you obviously understand more than I do. Now get on with it man.
I lost interest when he got to quoting the size of speed bumps in Burnley🤔
Are you a changed man Sproty , time was when you would have dissected this piece of well written journalism like a silkworm presented with a pile of mulberry leaves ? Oh what a yarn you might once have spun from it. ( sorry about that 🤗)
I guess " speed bumps in Burnley " is stretching even your incredulity as much as it did mine. However I am reliably informed there is factual evidence to support what would normally be considered absolute nonsense. No doubt as this mess draws to some kind of f**ked up conclusion we will hear more of this stuff .
No Mr Wewewiggerly, I want you to explain what Hoolahoop was on about, seeing as you obviously understand more than I do. Now get on with it man.
Like me , he knows, from all your contributions on here over the year, that you are far brighter than you pretend to be . We all know that you inject venom into these threads and that's great we recognise that. However you have recently taken up the pretence that you don't understand long and well- reasoned contributions from others.
This is not intended to flatter you only to recognise your intellect .
I'm sure I will get a " what do you mean, " or " who me ? " reply at some stage
What's even more depressing is that our supposedly neutral BBC ( Brexit Broadcasting Corporation) also steered well away from the facts . Constantly we hear " leaving the EU was in both Parties manifestos " but then so were all these ignored facts and aspirations !
Well, I'm of the understanding that 'we' refers to the handful of people on this thread who stick together, answering each other's questions in an 'allow me to handle this one, comrade' brotherhood type of way, and often in an arrogant and smarmy way by one of them in particular.
Hyenas spring to mind!
BST, It's not quite as simple as that. Take for instance your arguments with your fellow 'us' men. How many times did you tell any of them to 'go to bed' despite it being you who was the tired one? How many of them called you thick, or childish? How many of them did you call petulant? How many of them called you a berk?! How many of them called you a thick berk?!!
I'm all for grown-up debate, but I'm not going to resist retaliation when I get childish insults thrown my way.
Have yo ever asked yourself why very few people bother opposing the 'we' clan?
......And so will the 'we' men! Even if they don't agree with a fellow 'we' man they will defend him simply by not getting involved, especially if is against one of the venomous posters like me when he has asked an awkward question.
Never, ever has one of the 'we' men took my side against another 'we' man!
So it seems the Brexit department isn't in charge of Brexit anymore. Outstanding stuff. The Thick Of It has nothing on this. https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-07-24/HCWS924
Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them, the remainers could move London way and leave the rest of us in the north
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html
Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html
Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html
They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.
They can have the Royal Family too!yes we can have the royal family up north no problem with that
Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html
They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.
They can have the Royal Family too!yes we can have the royal family up north no problem with that
Why don't you just go live on your own on a remote island you will probably be lots happier there
Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html
They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.
They can have the Royal Family too!yes we can have the royal family up north no problem with that
Oh good, if you're taking them up north we get all the Crown Properties that bring in the tourists!
Yes I'm quite happy with the royal family if it costs money so be it
How dare you post such a thing, wonder how long before the 3 amigos pop up to shoot you down
The left-wing case for leaving the European Union (championed by Tony Benn) wasn't even articulated leading up to the referendum. It wasn't heard - it was a piss in the ocean. To draw upon it now would be a bit perverse.
So it seems the Brexit department isn't in charge of Brexit anymore. Outstanding stuff. The Thick Of It has nothing on this. https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-07-24/HCWS924
How dare you post such a thing, wonder how long before the 3 amigos pop up to shoot you down
Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html
They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.
They can have the Royal Family too!yes we can have the royal family up north no problem with that
Oh good, if you're taking them up north we get all the Crown Properties that bring in the tourists!
Wewewewe :laugh:
and your point is?
The left-wing case for leaving the European Union (championed by Tony Benn) wasn't even articulated leading up to the referendum.
The left-wing case for leaving the European Union (championed by Tony Benn) wasn't even articulated leading up to the referendum.
That's actually a tad unfair. Corbyn himself discussed it on a left-wing American webinar a few hours before the polls opened. In fairness, while he didn't comment on the economic benefits of staying in the EU, he did say that we should Remain, because it's an interconnected world and plastic bags dropped off the coast of Colombia can end up in Japan.
To the barricades Comrades!
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/913065/Brexit-news-European-Union-EU-UK-BBC-bias-latest-vote-referendum/amp
If it was this easy why has this government lost a leader and countless others trying to put it all together?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/25/plans-stockpile-food-blood-medicine-case-no-deal-brexit-sensible/
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/913065/Brexit-news-European-Union-EU-UK-BBC-bias-latest-vote-referendum/amp
Come on Glyn, the whole media has bias to its agenda one way or another. A neutral press is an illusion
Come on Glyn, the whole media has bias to its agenda one way or another. A neutral press is an illusionWhile this is true, the BBC is certainly about as neutral as you're going to get. It's often to the detriment of the story, too. Not all topics are balanced. Take climate change - 97% of the world's scientists agree on the matter, the facts are inarguable. But because the Beeb has to be balanced, they're forced to present both sides of the issue equally. So they'll have climate change denying wingnuts given equal platforms alongside respected climate scientists. The angling that the BBC is anti-Brexit isn't something I've found to be true - they were very balanced in their reporting. Look at the TV time Farage, Johnson and the rest got.
Come on Glyn, the whole media has bias to its agenda one way or another. A neutral press is an illusion
So you'd agree that quoting one news source to prove another news source is biased is doubly pointless?
I don't know if the MoS has changed its editorial stance since the Referendum, but during the campaign it was very pro-Remain. In stark contrast to its sister Daily paper.
I don't know if the MoS has changed its editorial stance since the Referendum, but during the campaign it was very pro-Remain. In stark contrast to its sister Daily paper.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/913065/Brexit-news-European-Union-EU-UK-BBC-bias-latest-vote-referendum/amp
Funny how that 'research' seems to leave out all the rest of the News programme spectrum such as all the individual news bulletins, Newsnight, Daily Politics, Today programme, PM, The World At One, etc. etc. etc., and just talks about two single programmes. Where are the figures for all the rest? It couldn't be selective reporting at all, could it?
no hoola I couldn’t find any information on any of the other programmes you saidhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/913065/Brexit-news-European-Union-EU-UK-BBC-bias-latest-vote-referendum/amp
Funny how that 'research' seems to leave out all the rest of the News programme spectrum such as all the individual news bulletins, Newsnight, Daily Politics, Today programme, PM, The World At One, etc. etc. etc., and just talks about two single programmes. Where are the figures for all the rest? It couldn't be selective reporting at all, could it?
Strange indeed that it is so selective or is it just bending of the news to suit the answer you want to get ?
By the way. You might recall me pointing out that the head of Vote Leave is on record as crowing that they paid some clever guys to focus adverts in the final week of the campaign through Facebook to people who they had (illegally) identified as being susceptible to being anti-immigrant. Cummings said they sent 1.5bn adds to 7million people.
Facebook have given Parliament a document with images from those ads.
Here they are.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Vote-Leave-50-Million-Ads.pdf
no hoola I couldn’t find any information on any of the other programmes you saidhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/913065/Brexit-news-European-Union-EU-UK-BBC-bias-latest-vote-referendum/amp
Funny how that 'research' seems to leave out all the rest of the News programme spectrum such as all the individual news bulletins, Newsnight, Daily Politics, Today programme, PM, The World At One, etc. etc. etc., and just talks about two single programmes. Where are the figures for all the rest? It couldn't be selective reporting at all, could it?
Strange indeed that it is so selective or is it just bending of the news to suit the answer you want to get ?
Subliminal cuts have been used for donkey's years. They were used in radio broadcasts in WW2. They are now used on bigger audiences like social media.
Subliminal cuts have been used for donkey's years. They were used in radio broadcasts in WW2. They are now used on bigger audiences like social media.
This is REALLY important. Can’t you see it? Democracy is being bought.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-short-history-of-the-rise-fall-and-rise-of-subliminal-messaging/
No BST, YOU'RE the one ignoring the central point.
You refuse to accept anything I say, and I can live with that, but I wonder how many potential posters are put off by your constant attempts to put words into other posters mouths. Perhaps what's more alarming is those who actually don't realise you do that.
[/quote
George Greengrass suddenly came to mind!.
Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.
My point is that it is not new!
Now, tell me where I said anything else.
By the way. You might recall me pointing out that the head of Vote Leave is on record as crowing that they paid some clever guys to focus adverts in the final week of the campaign through Facebook to people who they had (illegally) identified as being susceptible to being anti-immigrant. Cummings said they sent 1.5bn adds to 7million people.
Facebook have given Parliament a document with images from those ads.
Here they are.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Vote-Leave-50-Million-Ads.pdf
Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.
My point is that it is not new!
Now, tell me where I said anything else.
Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.
My point is that it is not new!
Now, tell me where I said anything else.
Whether I accept that or not isn't the point. You're just trying a Billyesque approach to change the subject.
Thinking about it though, wouldn't you have thought they'd have concentrated on influencing more potential remainers rather than those who were already potential leavers?
Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.
My point is that it is not new!
Now, tell me where I said anything else.
Whether I accept that or not isn't the point. You're just trying a Billyesque approach to change the subject.
Thinking about it though, wouldn't you have thought they'd have concentrated on influencing more potential remainers rather than those who were already potential leavers?
Just a thought, while the leave campaign has been taken to court, has all the funding for the remain campaign ( the large walks etc in London last month ) and the campaign that is still going on two years later that needs funding been added up.
Someone must be putting in a fair wedge even now, for this sustained effort to keep us in the blessed thing.
Billies electric bill must be massive, or is he using the firms computer for his own campaign.
By the way. You might recall me pointing out that the head of Vote Leave is on record as crowing that they paid some clever guys to focus adverts in the final week of the campaign through Facebook to people who they had (illegally) identified as being susceptible to being anti-immigrant. Cummings said they sent 1.5bn adds to 7million people.
Facebook have given Parliament a document with images from those ads.
Here they are.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Vote-Leave-50-Million-Ads.pdf
And there’s all sorts of stuff coming out of the cesspool of Vote Leave Facebook posts.
When MP Jo Cox was murdered by that far right terrorist, who shouted “Britain First” as he shot her in the face, both sides of the campaign agreed to stop campaigning for three days from 16-1@ June as a mark of respect.
Except the Vote Leave Facebook adds went on being sent out. As w now know from the Facebook records released to Parliament.
https://mobile.twitter.com/veritasta/status/1022752615447375872/photo/3
So Vote Leave wasn’t just criminal. It was unethical, immoral and untrustworthy too.
Hoola if you think the rallies cost nothing you must be from Mars.
Do you really think that the good and great would speak at them for F**K all, don't think for one minute they would do it for nowt, and it would be plus expenses in the Dorchester.
It is after all their job getting the unwashed to follow. I bet the best profit margin would be the placards.
Its a shitstorm of monumental proportions
Cummings is claiming today that the adverts weren’t sent out during the embargo period. They were just uploaded then for subsequent release.
Maybe that’s the truth. But it’s not what the FB data released by Parliament says. And to be honest, he sounds deranged on his blog. Firing off abusive missives at the Select Committee chair, and releasing a Parliamentary report which is supposed to be not published till Sunday with the line “I’ve published the report on my blog, f**k the charlatan embargo.
It’s rather unsettling to be honest. Like watching a public nervous breakdown. The man is hugely intelligent, but seems to have no concept of the responsibilities that go alongside involvement in public life. He seems to consider every person in politics to be beneath him and contemptible (bizarrely, excluding Gove and Johnson). That sort of God complex is unlikely to lead to long term mental stability.
http://www1.secam.ex.ac.uk/famous-forecasting-quotes.dhtml
That's a nice little story glyn
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/994973/food-prices-drop-post-brexit-empthy-supermarket-shelves-britain/amp
http://www1.secam.ex.ac.uk/famous-forecasting-quotes.dhtml
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/994973/food-prices-drop-post-brexit-empthy-supermarket-shelves-britain/amp
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/994973/food-prices-drop-post-brexit-empthy-supermarket-shelves-britain/amp
The point I was making Sydney is we’re not going to starve the minute we leave the eu, it’s scaremongering
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
You did indeed Filo and how right you were . Sorry the site went down here but you also said that France owed us a debt going back many years and of course Germany still owed Greece a substantial amount of war reparations.
However those 2 points you raised were never going to compensate the 27 or could they put their principal tenets at risk and risk losing the EU project over us .
Meanwhile.the eu then has a moral obligation as well as a financial one to stop being f**king awkward and agree on a deal
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/army-on-standby-for-no-deal-brexit-emergency-dz3359lrf
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dont-panic-well-deal-with-no-deal-bs7sk5vxg
What was it Gove said? Oh aye. We hold all the cards in the Brexit negotiations.
What was it Fox said? Oh aye. The negotiations will be the easiest ever.
Still, bright side, eh? Many of the pensioner Brexit voters were pining for a Britain that they remembered from the past. Looks like they’ll get what the wanted. No deal Brexit means the shops will be empty, there’ll be rationing and you’ll die from what should be easily treatable I’ll esses because we’ll not have the medicine. Just like the 1940s.
Meanwhile.the eu then has a moral obligation as well as a financial one to stop being f**king awkward and agree on a deal
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/army-on-standby-for-no-deal-brexit-emergency-dz3359lrf
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dont-panic-well-deal-with-no-deal-bs7sk5vxg
What was it Gove said? Oh aye. We hold all the cards in the Brexit negotiations.
What was it Fox said? Oh aye. The negotiations will be the easiest ever.
Still, bright side, eh? Many of the pensioner Brexit voters were pining for a Britain that they remembered from the past. Looks like they’ll get what the wanted. No deal Brexit means the shops will be empty, there’ll be rationing and you’ll die from what should be easily treatable I’ll esses because we’ll not have the medicine. Just like the 1940s.
Meanwhile.the eu then has a moral obligation as well as a financial one to stop being f**king awkward and agree on a deal
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/army-on-standby-for-no-deal-brexit-emergency-dz3359lrf
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dont-panic-well-deal-with-no-deal-bs7sk5vxg
What was it Gove said? Oh aye. We hold all the cards in the Brexit negotiations.
What was it Fox said? Oh aye. The negotiations will be the easiest ever.
Still, bright side, eh? Many of the pensioner Brexit voters were pining for a Britain that they remembered from the past. Looks like they’ll get what the wanted. No deal Brexit means the shops will be empty, there’ll be rationing and you’ll die from what should be easily treatable I’ll esses because we’ll not have the medicine. Just like the 1940s.
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
You did indeed Filo and how right you were . Sorry the site went down here but you also said that France owed us a debt going back many years and of course Germany still owed Greece a substantial amount of war reparations.
However those 2 points you raised were never going to compensate the 27 or could they put their principal tenets at risk and risk losing the EU project over us .
This might sound like little Englander, but going back to the WW2 every one of those 27 Countries owes us a great debt for standing up to the Nazis, along with our allies, it cost the UK a substantial amount of money to fight that cause, taking years to repay the debt, and now all it appears to be happening is they all collectivley want to stick the knife in our back and give it a good twist, all be it the situation is of our own making. Many Many of our Countrymen died for their freedom. I still say they want to punish us for voting to leave, nothing has been ceeded by them, negotiation is a process where each pary concedes things to gain in other areas, what is happening now is we are being dictated to, hot negotiation
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
You did indeed Filo and how right you were . Sorry the site went down here but you also said that France owed us a debt going back many years and of course Germany still owed Greece a substantial amount of war reparations.
However those 2 points you raised were never going to compensate the 27 or could they put their principal tenets at risk and risk losing the EU project over us .
This might sound like little Englander, but going back to the WW2 every one of those 27 Countries owes us a great debt for standing up to the Nazis, along with our allies, it cost the UK a substantial amount of money to fight that cause, taking years to repay the debt, and now all it appears to be happening is they all collectivley want to stick the knife in our back and give it a good twist, all be it the situation is of our own making. Many Many of our Countrymen died for their freedom. I still say they want to punish us for voting to leave, nothing has been ceeded by them, negotiation is a process where each pary concedes things to gain in other areas, what is happening now is we are being dictated to, hot negotiation
Meanwhile.the eu then has a moral obligation as well as a financial one to stop being f**king awkward and agree on a deal
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/army-on-standby-for-no-deal-brexit-emergency-dz3359lrf
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dont-panic-well-deal-with-no-deal-bs7sk5vxg
What was it Gove said? Oh aye. We hold all the cards in the Brexit negotiations.
What was it Fox said? Oh aye. The negotiations will be the easiest ever.
Still, bright side, eh? Many of the pensioner Brexit voters were pining for a Britain that they remembered from the past. Looks like they’ll get what the wanted. No deal Brexit means the shops will be empty, there’ll be rationing and you’ll die from what should be easily treatable I’ll esses because we’ll not have the medicine. Just like the 1940s.
Boomstick, I'll buy your house off you. I'll give you £1 and half a pack of chewing gum for it.
What do you mean no? Stop being so f**king awkward, you've got a moral obligation to agree a deal with me!
I'll assume you've missed my question rather than ignore it because you can't answer - why does the EU have any obligation to offer us anything?I was referring to the fear mongering article, about mobilising the military to help distribute supplies in the event of the eu refusing a deal.
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
You did indeed Filo and how right you were . Sorry the site went down here but you also said that France owed us a debt going back many years and of course Germany still owed Greece a substantial amount of war reparations.
However those 2 points you raised were never going to compensate the 27 or could they put their principal tenets at risk and risk losing the EU project over us .
This might sound like little Englander, but going back to the WW2 every one of those 27 Countries owes us a great debt for standing up to the Nazis, along with our allies, it cost the UK a substantial amount of money to fight that cause, taking years to repay the debt, and now all it appears to be happening is they all collectivley want to stick the knife in our back and give it a good twist, all be it the situation is of our own making. Many Many of our Countrymen died for their freedom. I still say they want to punish us for voting to leave, nothing has been ceeded by them, negotiation is a process where each pary concedes things to gain in other areas, what is happening now is we are being dictated to, hot negotiation
Meanwhile.the eu then has a moral obligation as well as a financial one to stop being f**king awkward and agree on a deal
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/army-on-standby-for-no-deal-brexit-emergency-dz3359lrf
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dont-panic-well-deal-with-no-deal-bs7sk5vxg
What was it Gove said? Oh aye. We hold all the cards in the Brexit negotiations.
What was it Fox said? Oh aye. The negotiations will be the easiest ever.
Still, bright side, eh? Many of the pensioner Brexit voters were pining for a Britain that they remembered from the past. Looks like they’ll get what the wanted. No deal Brexit means the shops will be empty, there’ll be rationing and you’ll die from what should be easily treatable I’ll esses because we’ll not have the medicine. Just like the 1940s.
I'll assume you've missed my question rather than ignore it because you can't answer - why does the EU have any obligation to offer us anything?I was referring to the fear mongering article, about mobilising the military to help distribute supplies in the event of the eu refusing a deal.
(this of course won't happen)
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
You did indeed Filo and how right you were . Sorry the site went down here but you also said that France owed us a debt going back many years and of course Germany still owed Greece a substantial amount of war reparations.
However those 2 points you raised were never going to compensate the 27 or could they put their principal tenets at risk and risk losing the EU project over us .
This might sound like little Englander, but going back to the WW2 every one of those 27 Countries owes us a great debt for standing up to the Nazis, along with our allies, it cost the UK a substantial amount of money to fight that cause, taking years to repay the debt, and now all it appears to be happening is they all collectivley want to stick the knife in our back and give it a good twist, all be it the situation is of our own making. Many Many of our Countrymen died for their freedom. I still say they want to punish us for voting to leave, nothing has been ceeded by them, negotiation is a process where each pary concedes things to gain in other areas, what is happening now is we are being dictated to, hot negotiation
And what did you do in the war that means the 27 EU nations owe you something, Filo?
PS If it's all about bodycount, how much exactly do we and the rest of Europe owe Putin and the rest of Russia?
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
You did indeed Filo and how right you were . Sorry the site went down here but you also said that France owed us a debt going back many years and of course Germany still owed Greece a substantial amount of war reparations.
However those 2 points you raised were never going to compensate the 27 or could they put their principal tenets at risk and risk losing the EU project over us .
This might sound like little Englander, but going back to the WW2 every one of those 27 Countries owes us a great debt for standing up to the Nazis, along with our allies, it cost the UK a substantial amount of money to fight that cause, taking years to repay the debt, and now all it appears to be happening is they all collectivley want to stick the knife in our back and give it a good twist, all be it the situation is of our own making. Many Many of our Countrymen died for their freedom. I still say they want to punish us for voting to leave, nothing has been ceeded by them, negotiation is a process where each pary concedes things to gain in other areas, what is happening now is we are being dictated to, hot negotiation
And what did you do in the war that means the 27 EU nations owe you something, Filo?
PS If it's all about bodycount, how much exactly do we and the rest of Europe owe Putin and the rest of Russia?
Did I say I did anything in the war?
Stupid comment!
Well if 48% of hardcore Tories think Corbyn will be the next PM then you can oly suppose it can only be the embittered Blairites running him down again for the polls, quelle suprise.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nearly-half-of-tory-members-think-jeremy-corbyn-will-become-prime-minister-amid-anger-over-mays-brexit-plans-steve-baker-no-deal-conservativehome_uk_5b5f0781e4b0fd5c73d16f28?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage
Thing is Ldr. There was never any prospect of the negotiations being anything other than a monumental f**k up.
To negotiate, you need a strong bottom line. The one that says “Give is something or we will walk away”.
That’s what this bunch of f**king idiots is now trying to do with the No Deal threat. But the EU negotiators know that would be Britain cutting our own throat. So they are laughing at the threat.
And that means there’s zero incentive on the EU to give an inch. Why on Earth should they? Would you? Would you say “Yeah go on. You e abused us and lied about us for years. Let’s give you a deal that gives you all the benefits and none of the problems!”
So the EU says in fact. “Here’s the deal. You do what we say or...well or what? You e no alternative.”
And the Right Wing of the Tory Party says “How dare they! We’re British! We’ll bloody well walk away.”
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Round and round the f**king hamster wheel.
And that is exactly what I said in my opening post of this thread
You did indeed Filo and how right you were . Sorry the site went down here but you also said that France owed us a debt going back many years and of course Germany still owed Greece a substantial amount of war reparations.
However those 2 points you raised were never going to compensate the 27 or could they put their principal tenets at risk and risk losing the EU project over us .
This might sound like little Englander, but going back to the WW2 every one of those 27 Countries owes us a great debt for standing up to the Nazis, along with our allies, it cost the UK a substantial amount of money to fight that cause, taking years to repay the debt, and now all it appears to be happening is they all collectivley want to stick the knife in our back and give it a good twist, all be it the situation is of our own making. Many Many of our Countrymen died for their freedom. I still say they want to punish us for voting to leave, nothing has been ceeded by them, negotiation is a process where each pary concedes things to gain in other areas, what is happening now is we are being dictated to, hot negotiation
And what did you do in the war that means the 27 EU nations owe you something, Filo?
PS If it's all about bodycount, how much exactly do we and the rest of Europe owe Putin and the rest of Russia?
Did I say I did anything in the war?
Stupid comment!
Bloody 'ell, and you think dragging a war that finished nearly 75 years ago into the negotiations isn't a stupid comment!
don't see how the tories can have a 2nd referendum they will lose power immediately
Rightwing UK thinktank 'offered ministerial access' to potential US donors
This could hugely benefit US farmers by lifting the ban on the sale in the UK of beef from cattle treated with growth hormones and chlorine-washed chicken.
M-mmm-southern fried chlorine chicken, would you like some hormones with that?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/29/rightwing-thinktank-ministerial-access-potential-us-donors-insitute-of-economic-affairs-brexit
hunt made a mistake about his wife but why has he gone down like a balloon? Only ask as I’ve not seen anything about it?Rightwing UK thinktank 'offered ministerial access' to potential US donors
This could hugely benefit US farmers by lifting the ban on the sale in the UK of beef from cattle treated with growth hormones and chlorine-washed chicken.
M-mmm-southern fried chlorine chicken, would you like some hormones with that?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/29/rightwing-thinktank-ministerial-access-potential-us-donors-insitute-of-economic-affairs-brexit
I read it earlier - it's scary what we have signed up for . In addition Jeremy Hunt has gone down like a lead balloon in China ; which " wants to strengthen its ties with the EU to counteract the trade war with the USA, "...........
we are so last season dear it appears. So no hanging our hat on them.
Seems we are stuck with a big :-McChlorine meal with cheese and fries and a coke............is that one line or two sir ?
Only one please.....ok have a nice day sir
hunt made a mistake about his wife but why has he gone down like a balloon? Only ask as I’ve not seen anything about it?Rightwing UK thinktank 'offered ministerial access' to potential US donors
This could hugely benefit US farmers by lifting the ban on the sale in the UK of beef from cattle treated with growth hormones and chlorine-washed chicken.
M-mmm-southern fried chlorine chicken, would you like some hormones with that?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/29/rightwing-thinktank-ministerial-access-potential-us-donors-insitute-of-economic-affairs-brexit
I read it earlier - it's scary what we have signed up for . In addition Jeremy Hunt has gone down like a lead balloon in China ; which " wants to strengthen its ties with the EU to counteract the trade war with the USA, "...........
we are so last season dear it appears. So no hanging our hat on them.
Seems we are stuck with a big :-McChlorine meal with cheese and fries and a coke............is that one line or two sir ?
Only one please.....ok have a nice day sir
hunt made a mistake about his wife but why has he gone down like a balloon? Only ask as I’ve not seen anything about it?Rightwing UK thinktank 'offered ministerial access' to potential US donors
This could hugely benefit US farmers by lifting the ban on the sale in the UK of beef from cattle treated with growth hormones and chlorine-washed chicken.
M-mmm-southern fried chlorine chicken, would you like some hormones with that?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/29/rightwing-thinktank-ministerial-access-potential-us-donors-insitute-of-economic-affairs-brexit
I read it earlier - it's scary what we have signed up for . In addition Jeremy Hunt has gone down like a lead balloon in China ; which " wants to strengthen its ties with the EU to counteract the trade war with the USA, "...........
we are so last season dear it appears. So no hanging our hat on them.
Seems we are stuck with a big :-McChlorine meal with cheese and fries and a coke............is that one line or two sir ?
Only one please.....ok have a nice day sir
It's great that you have asked bpool.
Hunt has got a Chinese wife - some how he mentioned that he had a " Japanese " wife . The Japanese of course are the sworn enemies of the Chinese following the reign of terror unleashed on the Chinese by the Japanese soldiers in WW2 - they raped and pillaged wherever and whenever they wanted .( The siege of Nanking stands out in particular )
Incidentally they did exactly the same to the peoples on the Korean Peninsula.
To be fair I'm not sure that once he had acknowledged his mistake that he would have been forgiven. However he also raised the question of the way the people of Hong Kong were being denied their democratic rights , which both countries agreed on handover to maintain.
The Chinese Foreign Minister more or less said mind your own business " Hong Kong is Chinese now ". In fairness, as I mentioned above, China is persuing the EU somewhat for Trade Agreements to counter the potential losses in the USA because of Trump's " America First " policy. Because Trump has applied higher tariffs on goods some Chinese products will be too dear now for the USA market.
This of course makes it more difficult for us China is persuing the EU, the EU has signed an agreement with Japan , meaning we may well be left with just 3 large import / export markets : the USA, Brazil and of course India. Brazil and India are already in a loose arrangement with Russia and China ( BRICs)
It's all very messy for us , irrespective of the size of our economy - it comes down to the size and strengths of our market. There's so many geo- physical forces at play here that currently we are a minnow swimming in a sea of sharks.
hunt made a mistake about his wife but why has he gone down like a balloon? Only ask as I’ve not seen anything about it?Rightwing UK thinktank 'offered ministerial access' to potential US donors
This could hugely benefit US farmers by lifting the ban on the sale in the UK of beef from cattle treated with growth hormones and chlorine-washed chicken.
M-mmm-southern fried chlorine chicken, would you like some hormones with that?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/29/rightwing-thinktank-ministerial-access-potential-us-donors-insitute-of-economic-affairs-brexit
I read it earlier - it's scary what we have signed up for . In addition Jeremy Hunt has gone down like a lead balloon in China ; which " wants to strengthen its ties with the EU to counteract the trade war with the USA, "...........
we are so last season dear it appears. So no hanging our hat on them.
Seems we are stuck with a big :-McChlorine meal with cheese and fries and a coke............is that one line or two sir ?
Only one please.....ok have a nice day sir
It's great that you have asked bpool.
Hunt has got a Chinese wife - some how he mentioned that he had a " Japanese " wife . The Japanese of course are the sworn enemies of the Chinese following the reign of terror unleashed on the Chinese by the Japanese soldiers in WW2 - they raped and pillaged wherever and whenever they wanted .( The siege of Nanking stands out in particular )
Incidentally they did exactly the same to the peoples on the Korean Peninsula.
To be fair I'm not sure that once he had acknowledged his mistake that he would have been forgiven. However he also raised the question of the way the people of Hong Kong were being denied their democratic rights , which both countries agreed on handover to maintain.
The Chinese Foreign Minister more or less said mind your own business " Hong Kong is Chinese now ". In fairness, as I mentioned above, China is persuing the EU somewhat for Trade Agreements to counter the potential losses in the USA because of Trump's " America First " policy. Because Trump has applied higher tariffs on goods some Chinese products will be too dear now for the USA market.
This of course makes it more difficult for us China is persuing the EU, the EU has signed an agreement with Japan , meaning we may well be left with just 3 large import / export markets : the USA, Brazil and of course India. Brazil and India are already in a loose arrangement with Russia and China ( BRICs)
It's all very messy for us , irrespective of the size of our economy - it comes down to the size and strengths of our market. There's so many geo- physical forces at play here that currently we are a minnow swimming in a sea of sharks.
So it's OK for you to mention WW2?
I wonder what sort of deal Filo thinks we ought to get from Japan seeing as we thrashed them 75 years ago?
I wonder what sort of deal Filo thinks we ought to get from Japan seeing as we thrashed them 75 years ago?
Since when was Japan in the EU?
Meanwhile over in 21st century Europe....Barnier published a piece in the newspapers explaining why May's proposals were unacceptable. The Chequers' deal is dead before it even got going, so where do we go from here?
http://politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/08/03/barnier-has-finally-killed-chequers-and-with-it-the-uk-gover
Meanwhile over in 21st century Europe....Barnier published a piece in the newspapers explaining why May's proposals were unacceptable. The Chequers' deal is dead before it even got going, so where do we go from here?
http://politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/08/03/barnier-has-finally-killed-chequers-and-with-it-the-uk-gover
The people of Britain may finally have an opportunity to exercise their democratic right to vote in what may turn out to be the most important poll in their entire lives.
''Public backing for a new referendum on Theresa May’s Brexit deal has leapt in the last month, amid deep division over her approach to EU withdrawal.''
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/final-say-brexit-second-referendum-vote-petition-theresa-may-deal-eu-a8490256.html
The people of Britain may finally have an opportunity to exercise their democratic right to vote in what may turn out to be the most important poll in their entire lives.
''Public backing for a new referendum on Theresa May’s Brexit deal has leapt in the last month, amid deep division over her approach to EU withdrawal.''
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/final-say-brexit-second-referendum-vote-petition-theresa-may-deal-eu-a8490256.html
I actually think quite a number of pro-Brexit people are warming to the Second Referendum idea, because they don't trust May to deliver what they consider a "proper" Brexit.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1002254/Brexit-news-uk-business-uk-eu-trade-deal/amp
Does that surprise you? Does it shock you? Do you feel that you are being treated like an idiot by that journalist?
Does that surprise you? Does it shock you? Do you feel that you are being treated like an idiot by that journalist?
I feel like it might, but the anger will be directed at the people pointing out the lie rather than the people who told the lie in the first place. Strange times.
Does that surprise you? Does it shock you? Do you feel that you are being treated like an idiot by that journalist?
I feel like it might, but the anger will be directed at the people pointing out the lie rather than the people who told the lie in the first place. Strange times.
Bit like on here, really...
Does that surprise you? Does it shock you? Do you feel that you are being treated like an idiot by that journalist?
I feel like it might, but the anger will be directed at the people pointing out the lie rather than the people who told the lie in the first place. Strange times.
Bit like on here, really...
True and there are so many examples on the James O' Brien LBC phone in show being played out not only here but throughout the country. Sad days indeed . The Brexiters wonder why we care so much about this too - they won't when the penny or should i say pennies finally drop/ s
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-van-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-van-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/
These are all worth a listen O' Brien although he does talk a little too much does deal in facts not opinion and forces his callers to back up their opinions with not only reasoned logic but fact - he doesn't suffer fools gladly
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-van-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/
These are all worth a listen O' Brien although he does talk a little too much does deal in facts not opinion and forces his callers to back up their opinions with not only reasoned logic but fact - he doesn't suffer fools gladly
Have you heard the one with the International Trade expert? It's enough to make you shit your pants when he lays it all out as it really is and not how the Brexiteers fantasise it is.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-van-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/
These are all worth a listen O' Brien although he does talk a little too much does deal in facts not opinion and forces his callers to back up their opinions with not only reasoned logic but fact - he doesn't suffer fools gladly
Have you heard the one with the International Trade expert? It's enough to make you shit your pants when he lays it all out as it really is and not how the Brexiteers fantasise it is.
Yeah heard that one Gluyn but can't help thinking that James O' Brien's voice is one on a wilderness of oncoming dystopia. The voices for Remain simply arent cutting through despite the fact that they are on the right side of the argument.
JRM, Farage etc seem to have a platform to fend off any logical argument against Brexit and are using it via the MSM, the BBC, Sky News, Fox, RT etc. They have them ALL in their pocket - witness just the lack of any comment from Leavers on this forum alone to not only the phone- in above but all the facts , arguments etc that have posted on this thread .
There is NOT one agreement , anywhere from any of the Leavers following this thread that they might just be wrong on anything at all . It's beyond sad.
B.Johnson’s constituency was once 57.9 per cent in favour of leaving the European Union. Now is it 51.3 per cent in favour of remaining.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-ruislip-a8495926.html
That's quite a swing right?.
Will of the people only matters when it suits.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/second-referendum-brexit-final-say-julian-dunkerton-peoples-vote-nigel-farage-a8498546.htmlWill of the people only matters when it suits.
Yes it has many lying, scheming faces .
76 pages and still we await The answer to the question - How will we benefit from Brexit ? ( backed up with supporting evidence ) and a plan
But at least we are inexorably moving in the right direction Hoola.
"We’re already campaigning as if we’re having a second referendum – why not see it through?"
Is it just me or do other members feel that Dominic RAABs No Deal announcement today is a catalyst to ensure there is something positive agreed at next weeks Brussels meeting.
I like the one for Northern Ireland. The official UK government advice for their citizens in NI in the event of no-deal Brexit is....go ask Dublin what you should do!!!!
If anyone wanted any clearer indication that this government hasn't got a clue what to do, there it is. Resign now the lot of you.
Is it just me or do other members feel that Dominic RAABs No Deal announcement today is a catalyst to ensure there is something positive agreed at next weeks Brussels meeting.
No. Because the terms of exit from the EU were laid out right from the start and non-negotiable. The 'negotiations' are all about life after Brexit and the EU don't owe us anything. And as for 'they need a deal just as much as we need one', that just isn't true.
Is it just me or do other members feel that Dominic RAABs No Deal announcement today is a catalyst to ensure there is something positive agreed at next weeks Brussels meeting.
No. Because the terms of exit from the EU were laid out right from the start and non-negotiable. The 'negotiations' are all about life after Brexit and the EU don't owe us anything. And as for 'they need a deal just as much as we need one', that just isn't true.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-van-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/
These are all worth a listen O' Brien although he does talk a little too much does deal in facts not opinion and forces his callers to back up their opinions with not only reasoned logic but fact - he doesn't suffer fools gladly
Have you heard the one with the International Trade expert? It's enough to make you shit your pants when he lays it all out as it really is and not how the Brexiteers fantasise it is.
Yeah heard that one Gluyn but can't help thinking that James O' Brien's voice is one on a wilderness of oncoming dystopia. The voices for Remain simply arent cutting through despite the fact that they are on the right side of the argument.
JRM, Farage etc seem to have a platform to fend off any logical argument against Brexit and are using it via the MSM, the BBC, Sky News, Fox, RT etc. They have them ALL in their pocket - witness just the lack of any comment from Leavers on this forum alone to not only the phone- in above but all the facts , arguments etc that have posted on this thread .
There is NOT one agreement , anywhere from any of the Leavers following this thread that they might just be wrong on anything at all . It's beyond sad.
I hope O'Brien gets that bloke in the studio like he wants, answering caller's questions, for a full programme. That'll be something worth listening to, especially if he squashes a lot of the mythology around Brexit.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-van-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/
These are all worth a listen O' Brien although he does talk a little too much does deal in facts not opinion and forces his callers to back up their opinions with not only reasoned logic but fact - he doesn't suffer fools gladly
Have you heard the one with the International Trade expert? It's enough to make you shit your pants when he lays it all out as it really is and not how the Brexiteers fantasise it is.
Yeah heard that one Gluyn but can't help thinking that James O' Brien's voice is one on a wilderness of oncoming dystopia. The voices for Remain simply arent cutting through despite the fact that they are on the right side of the argument.
JRM, Farage etc seem to have a platform to fend off any logical argument against Brexit and are using it via the MSM, the BBC, Sky News, Fox, RT etc. They have them ALL in their pocket - witness just the lack of any comment from Leavers on this forum alone to not only the phone- in above but all the facts , arguments etc that have posted on this thread .
There is NOT one agreement , anywhere from any of the Leavers following this thread that they might just be wrong on anything at all . It's beyond sad.
I hope O'Brien gets that bloke in the studio like he wants, answering caller's questions, for a full programme. That'll be something worth listening to, especially if he squashes a lot of the mythology around Brexit.
Jason Hunter again, this time educating one of Brexit's 'experts'.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1032919155882778625
And the most illuminating part of it is the three seconds of dead air when the Brexit 'expert' realises he's just had his ignorance shown up in neon lights and he's got no reply to it. And then has to resort to the usual slogans by default.
Mind you, with 'experts' like their own, it's no wonder Brexiters don't trust any at all.
No deal wont happen, there are enough Tory MP's determined to prevent it.
https://www.ft.com/content/89982810-a773-11e8-8ecf-a7ae1beff35b
As to what will happen - it should keep us going for another 70 pages I reckon.
Well. The Brexiteers are finally, after two years, coming up with a solution to the Irish Border issue.
The Minister for the 18th Century thinks we could go back to the arrangements we had during the Troubles. Genius!
https://twitter.com/stephen_rth/status/1033033628303941638
Well. The Brexiteers are finally, after two years, coming up with a solution to the Irish Border issue.
The Minister for the 18th Century thinks we could go back to the arrangements we had during the Troubles. Genius!
https://twitter.com/stephen_rth/status/1033033628303941638
Sproty.BST these idiots just take turns grabbing the spot-light one gaff at a time, back to you Boris?.
The rest of the discussion is meaningless. Just concentrate on what the Brexiteer-in-Chief, Rees-Mogg says. Look at the ridiculousness of the content of what he says the post-Brexit situation will be. There is nothing sensible in anything he ever says. His usual approach is a content-free "It'll be fine". Now we know why. Because when he suggests something concrete, it is utterly shambolic.
Point out to me anything that any Brexiteer has ever said in detail about why Brexit will work out well for us.
Ah so it's okay to quote the Guardian when it suits your point of view but otherwise it's biased?I’m not saying he is right it’s just another take on it spadge
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/06/brexit-britain-property-bubble. Someone else point of view on it, don’t know why it quoted everyone on last post
Sproty.BST these idiots just take turns grabbing the spot-light one gaff at a time, back to you Boris?.
The rest of the discussion is meaningless. Just concentrate on what the Brexiteer-in-Chief, Rees-Mogg says. Look at the ridiculousness of the content of what he says the post-Brexit situation will be. There is nothing sensible in anything he ever says. His usual approach is a content-free "It'll be fine". Now we know why. Because when he suggests something concrete, it is utterly shambolic.
Point out to me anything that any Brexiteer has ever said in detail about why Brexit will work out well for us.
Sproty.
The rest of the discussion is meaningless. Just concentrate on what the Brexiteer-in-Chief, Rees-Mogg says. Look at the ridiculousness of the content of what he says the post-Brexit situation will be. There is nothing sensible in anything he ever says. His usual approach is a content-free "It'll be fine". Now we know why. Because when he suggests something concrete, it is utterly shambolic.
Point out to me anything that any Brexiteer has ever said in detail about why Brexit will work out well for us.
Sproty.BST these idiots just take turns grabbing the spot-light one gaff at a time, back to you Boris?.
The rest of the discussion is meaningless. Just concentrate on what the Brexiteer-in-Chief, Rees-Mogg says. Look at the ridiculousness of the content of what he says the post-Brexit situation will be. There is nothing sensible in anything he ever says. His usual approach is a content-free "It'll be fine". Now we know why. Because when he suggests something concrete, it is utterly shambolic.
Point out to me anything that any Brexiteer has ever said in detail about why Brexit will work out well for us.
Sydney we both have a low opinion of each otherSproty.
The rest of the discussion is meaningless. Just concentrate on what the Brexiteer-in-Chief, Rees-Mogg says. Look at the ridiculousness of the content of what he says the post-Brexit situation will be. There is nothing sensible in anything he ever says. His usual approach is a content-free "It'll be fine". Now we know why. Because when he suggests something concrete, it is utterly shambolic.
Point out to me anything that any Brexiteer has ever said in detail about why Brexit will work out well for us.
The rest of the feed is meaningless but people will read it as I have done
And then wonder why you even bothered posting it.
the problem is bst the people who have studied the economy and try and predict it are wrong as much as they are right, I won't post links as there are so many of them questioning how accurate they are? So how do you no which 1 of them to trust?https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/06/brexit-britain-property-bubble. Someone else point of view on it, don’t know why it quoted everyone on last post
Bpool
You are repeatedly making my point for me.
The only people who support Brexit are ideologically fixated politicians, crooks and journalists who think that they are cleverer than anyone else.
Simon Jenkins falls into the latter category. He has no expertise whatsoever on the economics of Brexit. He offers no solution to the Irish Border question. But he is so convinced of his own infallibility that he regularly pronounces on a whole set of issues, most of which he turns out to be wrong about.
I'll give you my two pennorth. I don't give a flying f**k what opinions journalists and MPs have on Brexit. I'm not interested in their assurances that everything will be OK, or their comments on the Will of the People, or anything else about their opinions. What I DO listen to is the judgement of people who spend their professional life carefully analysing facts about economics and trade. And as I keep saying, I've yet to hear anything from any of those which says that Brexit will be anything less than a very serious problem - most of them say it will be a f**king catastrophe.
You, on the other hand, seem determined to go scavenging round for articles that support your preconceived decision, whilst ignoring anything from anyone who actually has any expertise on the Brexit issues.
Aye. Like a hole in an argument.
BPool.
1) Financial crash. There is a big point about crashes. No one can predict them. Because they depend on the interaction between many unpredictable reactions across the world. So in the case of the Great Financial Crash, no one knew how Bush's Govt would react to the failure of a major bank. No one knew just how badly leveraged banks were against a crazy housing bubble.
2) On SPECIFIC issues, like the consequence of a country deciding to make it far harder to trade with half a billion of the richest people on its doorstep, it's much easier to make predictions.
Here's an obvious analogy.
No one can predict exactly where every side will finish in the Premier league this year. There are too many variables that can't be guessed at. Injuries. Form. Stupid managerial decisions. inspired managerial decisions. Investment. lack of investment.
BUT.
If Spurs decide to play every match with three players having their legs tied together, you could pretty accurately predict that they would do much worse than they did last season.
That's the equivalent of trying to predict the effect on the whole world of the Great Financial Crash and trying to predict the effect on our country of Brexit.
And finally, as regards the belief in experts, here's a quote from that article you posted.
"Former Tory ministers, including the former foreign secretary William Hague and the former justice secretary Michael Gove, last year attacked the Bank of England governor, Mark Carney, for predicting a dramatic slowdown in growth if the country voted to leave the EU."
Thing is, we HAVE had a dramatic slowdown in growth since the vote. That is a fact. In 2016 we had the fastest growing economy in the G7. Now we have the slowest growing economy. We've lost about £60bn as a result of that slowdown.
Me, I'm f**king livid at that, because it means that I have to work harder just to stand still. Seems like you don't give a f**k about that. and that you still refuse to accept that the people who predicted that might have had a point.
No Sproty.
I say that Minford is an ideologically driven menace.
He is one of the right-wing economists (and there are many) who makes a logical case for why right-wing policies CAN work in the long run, but glosses over the fact that in the meantime there will be horrific disolocations to an economy.
I didn't discredit him. I DO say that the one and only time his policies were put into effect (by Thatcher in 1981) the immediate and medium term effects were appalling, especially for areas like South Yorkshire. He may well have been right to claim that, if Thatcher had held her nerve, things would have worked out right in the end. Equally, he may well be right that if we follow his prescription on Brexit, we'd come out with a stronger economy by 2040. But it's all beside the point. Because the effect in the meatime would be horrific, just like it was horrific in the 1980s. And no Govt would go through with that. just like even Thatcher bottled it and binned him in 1982.
No Sproty.
I say that Minford is an ideologically driven menace.
He is one of the right-wing economists (and there are many) who makes a logical case for why right-wing policies CAN work in the long run, but glosses over the fact that in the meantime there will be horrific disolocations to an economy.
I didn't discredit him. I DO say that the one and only time his policies were put into effect (by Thatcher in 1981) the immediate and medium term effects were appalling, especially for areas like South Yorkshire. He may well have been right to claim that, if Thatcher had held her nerve, things would have worked out right in the end. Equally, he may well be right that if we follow his prescription on Brexit, we'd come out with a stronger economy by 2040. But it's all beside the point. Because the effect in the meatime would be horrific, just like it was horrific in the 1980s. And no Govt would go through with that. just like even Thatcher bottled it and binned him in 1982.
The antics of the NUM were mainly responsible for the economic decline in South Yorkshire, they took on the Government of the time ,they lost the battle, the Thatcher Goverment then decided to teach us all a lesson and totally neglected the area for almost a decade. Quoting South Yorkshire is a poor example of economic mismanagement it was done on purpose.
Last year, Britain exported £2.4bn worth of goods to the six African countries included in Ms May’s deal - just 0.7 per cent of the value of its exports to the EU and the rest of the world combined, which were worth £339bn.
Hey Sproty, never say I dont give you a leg up or respect your views, here is a freebie, maybe a first on this thread, something to celebrate, a good news story, something that will bring a warm glow to everyones heart. People will remember this as the turning point, a point in time when the Brexit fairy tale delivered. There are critics but just ignore them and feel the love.
Last year, Britain exported £2.4bn worth of goods to the six African countries included in Ms May’s deal - just 0.7 per cent of the value of its exports to the EU and the rest of the world combined, which were worth £339bn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZAwoip5aY
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-trade-deal-africa-theresa-may-trip-post-brexit-eu-rollover-a8511871.html
Hey Sproty, never say I dont give you a leg up or respect your views, here is a freebie, maybe a first on this thread, something to celebrate, a good news story, something that will bring a warm glow to everyones heart. People will remember this as the turning point, a point in time when the Brexit fairy tale delivered. There are critics but just ignore them and feel the love.
Last year, Britain exported £2.4bn worth of goods to the six African countries included in Ms May’s deal - just 0.7 per cent of the value of its exports to the EU and the rest of the world combined, which were worth £339bn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZAwoip5aY
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-trade-deal-africa-theresa-may-trip-post-brexit-eu-rollover-a8511871.html
Hey Sydney, interesting to see that an agriculturally backward Nation is planning to take advantage of Brexit and intends sending us such delicacies as burnt Goat Heads and GM Modified meat, a right set of scumbag scoundrels by all accounts!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-meat-banned-eu-australia-beef-liam-fox-dit-friends-of-the-earth-a8475006.html
Bpool2 thirds wrong about brexit so far bst, are any of the ones you follow in that 2 thirds ?
That is nonsense.
There are SOME economists who are frequently wrong. Like the ones who said that Austerity would produce an expansion in the economy in 2010. Or the one who said that massively raising interest rates and cutting Govt spending at the bottom of the recession in 1981 would spur the economy. (That last one is Patrick Minford - the Govt followed is advice in 1981 and it led to unemployment nearly trebling before they quietly ditched him).
Then again, there are economists who predicted that Austerity was a disaster which wold massively delay recovery from the Great Recession. They were bang on.
The same economists predicted that the Brexit vote would lead to a collapse in the Pound and to a sharp slow down in economic growth (and yes BB, before you start again, I KNOW that Osborne sold that as meaning that there would be a recession and there wasn't a recession because the global economy did better than expected but that doesn't mean the economists were wrong.)
The same economists are predicting that Brexit will have a very serious long-term negative effect on our economy. Minford is saying that it could all work out fine (but even he is saying that it could only work out fine if we cut import tariffs to zero and he accepts that this would destroy the British manufacturing industry and he says that the big Northern cities should be handled by "managed decline" as a result).
Now. ask yourself why the likes of Gove encourage you to ignore experts. And why everyone on the Brexit side of the argument poo-poos the idea that anyone can predict the effect of Brexit on the economy (and their poo-pooing has certainly worked on you).
Could it be because they know there is not a single sensible, credible economist who things it will turn out well? Whilst there are literally dozens who have been right on all the major issues of the last decade who are saying that it will be a f**king catastrophe?
Now't new, they've been getting away with sending us that Fosters Lager shite for years.Hey Sproty, never say I dont give you a leg up or respect your views, here is a freebie, maybe a first on this thread, something to celebrate, a good news story, something that will bring a warm glow to everyones heart. People will remember this as the turning point, a point in time when the Brexit fairy tale delivered. There are critics but just ignore them and feel the love.
Last year, Britain exported £2.4bn worth of goods to the six African countries included in Ms May’s deal - just 0.7 per cent of the value of its exports to the EU and the rest of the world combined, which were worth £339bn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZAwoip5aY
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-trade-deal-africa-theresa-may-trip-post-brexit-eu-rollover-a8511871.html
Hey Sydney, interesting to see that an agriculturally backward Nation is planning to take advantage of Brexit and intends sending us such delicacies as burnt Goat Heads and GM Modified meat, a right set of scumbag scoundrels by all accounts!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-meat-banned-eu-australia-beef-liam-fox-dit-friends-of-the-earth-a8475006.html
Seen this thread going for ages so thought I'd have a quick gander.
I'm happy everyone's at each other's throats. I'd be disappointed if it was a proper debate without anyone throwing sly digs at one another.
Carry on, all.
Now't new, they've been getting away with sending us that Fosters Lager shite for years.Hey Sproty, never say I dont give you a leg up or respect your views, here is a freebie, maybe a first on this thread, something to celebrate, a good news story, something that will bring a warm glow to everyones heart. People will remember this as the turning point, a point in time when the Brexit fairy tale delivered. There are critics but just ignore them and feel the love.
Last year, Britain exported £2.4bn worth of goods to the six African countries included in Ms May’s deal - just 0.7 per cent of the value of its exports to the EU and the rest of the world combined, which were worth £339bn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZAwoip5aY
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-trade-deal-africa-theresa-may-trip-post-brexit-eu-rollover-a8511871.html
Hey Sydney, interesting to see that an agriculturally backward Nation is planning to take advantage of Brexit and intends sending us such delicacies as burnt Goat Heads and GM Modified meat, a right set of scumbag scoundrels by all accounts!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-meat-banned-eu-australia-beef-liam-fox-dit-friends-of-the-earth-a8475006.html
I haven't got a scooby what you're on about Bpool. What 2/3rds?sorry mate link didn't work
It's just that, if it was, it's another case of The Express making up headlines.
1) Nowhere in that article does it provide any example of any economist "admitting they got it wrong" on the effect of Brexit.
2) They say that the economy didn't take a hit due to the Brexit vote.
Well here's the data from the OBR. Not predictions. Facts about what has already happened.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MissSVMalone/status/973547900415471616/photo/1
They are lying to you and treating you like a gullible fool.
To be fair Foster's being brewed in the EU is as good a reason as any to vote Leave.
Except Hoola that its brewed in Britain and drunk by Britons and for good measure (or bad, I cant stand it):To be fair Foster's being brewed in the EU is as good a reason as any to vote Leave.
At last 79 pages in - we have a genuine reason for leaving the EU ..... it's Fosters lager.
It's just that, if it was, it's another case of The Express making up headlines.
1) Nowhere in that article does it provide any example of any economist "admitting they got it wrong" on the effect of Brexit.
2) They say that the economy didn't take a hit due to the Brexit vote.
Well here's the data from the OBR. Not predictions. Facts about what has already happened.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MissSVMalone/status/973547900415471616/photo/1
They are lying to you and treating you like a gullible fool.
Lol I can't help myself sometimes either , the Express is my " go to " place for a good chuckle too. The stuff is getting worse - have you tried perusing their reader's forum too ? Its entertaining to say the least. PMSL
Please tell me you don't go there for serious reading and politics bpool ?
Give up BST. You've made the same point very well many many times with watertight research and evidence and still
Certain folk don't believe you and never will.
I've got a reasonably intelligent Brexiteer friend who gets the Daily Mail every day and believes every word in it. I've borrowed some of your stuff to try and argue with him. It's like talking to the wall.
Give up BST. You've made the same point very well many many times with watertight research and evidence and stillhe has made his point very well I agree but that does not mean he is always right, you will never find bst saying anything good about the tories for example because that would not suit,no matter what anyone puts up he will say his links come from people that are right every time and the oned other people put up are nonsense and we're getting taken for a ride,all you have to do is type in do economists get it wrong more than right and there are thousands of links saying they do, yet there all wrong except bst economist of course
Certain folk don't believe you and never will.
I've got a reasonably intelligent Brexiteer friend who gets the Daily Mail every day and believes every word in it. I've borrowed some of your stuff to try and argue with him. It's like talking to the wall.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-08-01/what-are-economists-getting-wrong-today This 1 is this month, which ones do you use?You've not read it have you bpool?
Give up BST. You've made the same point very well many many times with watertight research and evidence and stillhe has made his point very well I agree but that does not mean he is always right, you will never find bst saying anything good about the tories for example because that would not suit,no matter what anyone puts up he will say his links come from people that are right every time and the oned other people put up are nonsense and we're getting taken for a ride,all you have to do is type in do economists get it wrong more than right and there are thousands of links saying they do, yet there all wrong except bst economist of course
Certain folk don't believe you and never will.
I've got a reasonably intelligent Brexiteer friend who gets the Daily Mail every day and believes every word in it. I've borrowed some of your stuff to try and argue with him. It's like talking to the wall.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-08-01/what-are-economists-getting-wrong-today This 1 is this month, which ones do you use?
People are capable of representing either side of an argument with equal conviction. When they decide what side to take their level of intelligence dictates how convincing they are. Being convincing doesn't always mean they are right because they are capable of being equally as convincing supporting the other side of the argument.Give up BST. You've made the same point very well many many times with watertight research and evidence and stillhe has made his point very well I agree but that does not mean he is always right, you will never find bst saying anything good about the tories for example because that would not suit,no matter what anyone puts up he will say his links come from people that are right every time and the oned other people put up are nonsense and we're getting taken for a ride,all you have to do is type in do economists get it wrong more than right and there are thousands of links saying they do, yet there all wrong except bst economist of course
Certain folk don't believe you and never will.
I've got a reasonably intelligent Brexiteer friend who gets the Daily Mail every day and believes every word in it. I've borrowed some of your stuff to try and argue with him. It's like talking to the wall.
while apologies are being doled out I think mr bullet of bently owes the people of australia an apology for his offending comment above.Now't new, they've been getting away with sending us that Fosters Lager shite for years.Hey Sproty, never say I dont give you a leg up or respect your views, here is a freebie, maybe a first on this thread, something to celebrate, a good news story, something that will bring a warm glow to everyones heart. People will remember this as the turning point, a point in time when the Brexit fairy tale delivered. There are critics but just ignore them and feel the love.
Last year, Britain exported £2.4bn worth of goods to the six African countries included in Ms May’s deal - just 0.7 per cent of the value of its exports to the EU and the rest of the world combined, which were worth £339bn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZAwoip5aY
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-trade-deal-africa-theresa-may-trip-post-brexit-eu-rollover-a8511871.html
Hey Sydney, interesting to see that an agriculturally backward Nation is planning to take advantage of Brexit and intends sending us such delicacies as burnt Goat Heads and GM Modified meat, a right set of scumbag scoundrels by all accounts!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-meat-banned-eu-australia-beef-liam-fox-dit-friends-of-the-earth-a8475006.html
BST.
This argument is going off course. The link I showed you was in answer to your claim that I have never previously accepted that Brexit would have a detrimental economic effect. The link shows that I did have concern for it. The reason why is irrelevant.
Hoola, I always answer people who ask a sensible question that is worth spending time on answering. I'll also respond to people who post untruths about things I've said, especially when they are held in high regard and relied upon for factual accuracy like BST is.
Who'd have thought it eh? The...err...honourable Liam Fox who this morning was castigating the Chancellor for having the gall to make predictions about OUR economy fifteen years down the line.Lies and cons are so easily forgotten BST like two minute noodles, cheap easily digested by the masses.
Have a guess what he said about the GLOBAL economy a couple of weeks back.
https://mobile.twitter.com/henrymance/status/1036231658603773953
To think. Our future is in the hands of f**king snake oil salesmen like this odious Kitson.
You're being had folks. I still don't fully get why they are doing it, but a handful of right wing MPs are lifting your shirt. Tell you that economic predictions are b*llocks. Except when they support what they want to tell you.
And it's obviously hitting the intended targets with some folk on here.
Who'd have thought it eh? The...err...honourable Liam Fox who this morning was castigating the Chancellor for having the gall to make predictions about OUR economy fifteen years down the line.
Have a guess what he said about the GLOBAL economy a couple of weeks back.
https://mobile.twitter.com/henrymance/status/1036231658603773953
To think. Our future is in the hands of f**king snake oil salesmen like this odious Kitson.
You're being had folks. I still don't fully get why they are doing it, but a handful of right wing MPs are lifting your shirt. Tell you that economic predictions are b*llocks. Except when they support what they want to tell you.
And it's obviously hitting the intended targets with some folk on here.
Who'd have thought it eh? The...err...honourable Liam Fox who this morning was castigating the Chancellor for having the gall to make predictions about OUR economy fifteen years down the line.
Have a guess what he said about the GLOBAL economy a couple of weeks back.
https://mobile.twitter.com/henrymance/status/1036231658603773953
To think. Our future is in the hands of f**king snake oil salesmen like this odious Kitson.
You're being had folks. I still don't fully get why they are doing it, but a handful of right wing MPs are lifting your shirt. Tell you that economic predictions are b*llocks. Except when they support what they want to tell you.
And it's obviously hitting the intended targets with some folk on here.
We can't say he didn't give us fair warning of his relationship with the truth though.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liam-fox-tweet-photo-on-screen-as-tory-minister-denies-sending-it-a7626841.html
And now we're getting closer to the core of what Brexit is about.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45392105
Johnson washes his hands of actually dealing with the f**king mess that he has caused and says "Well of COURSE Brexit will be a disaster if you do it YOUR way."
This is what it was always about. That bas**rd manoeuvring to become PM.
And now we're getting closer to the core of what Brexit is about.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45392105
Johnson washes his hands of actually dealing with the f**king mess that he has caused and says "Well of COURSE Brexit will be a disaster if you do it YOUR way."
This is what it was always about. That bas**rd manoeuvring to become PM.
All without offering the slightest hint of what proposals he'd put in front of the EU, of course.
At least she's found a spine now, or at the very least half a vertebrae: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/03/we-have-gone-into-battle-with-white-flag-fluttering-boris-attacks-mays-chequers-plan
“There’s no new ideas in this article to respond to. What we need at this time is serious leadership with a serious plan. That’s exactly what the country has with this prime minister and this Brexit plan.”
There is absolutely no chance of a no-deal Brexit, for the reasons we have said on here many times.
So for your other two options I would like to add in:
3) the Hotel California scenario, postponing article 50 and staying in for some vague date in the future
4) a general election (which May is reported to have consulted about over the weekend)
The Hotel California outcome is pretty much what I meant by option 2. But anyone thinking we'll have any leverage over the EU on negotiating terms of that is deluding themselves.
As for a General Election, yes I could see one coming but I don't see how that gets us any closer to determining a deal that the EU would accept. Both main parties have stances which are unacceptable to the EU. Labour is just in the relatively fortunate position that its stance hasn't had much scrutiny. But Corbyn's position that he wants a Brexit deal that leaves us no worse off is pie in the sky that disintegrates as soon as you start looking into it.
So, realistically, we're looking at no deal (which no same person wants, but then no same person wanted WWI and politicians blundered into that) or a deferment on terms that will be dictated to us.
Or of course, we go and apologise for our emotional spasm, say we've grown up and ask everyone to forget the last 2 years and pretend they never happened.
TRB
Nick Boles said tonight that the odds on them being able to get Chequers through the Commons are as close to zero as makes no difference. And he's a supporter of it.
Agreed on all points Wilts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srO4LTzVTE
A lovely mess we've got ourselves into int it?
Agreed on all points Wilts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srO4LTzVTE
A lovely mess we've got ourselves into int it?
Would it be more democratic to have a vote to see if we should have another vote?
BST
Is our system different from that of any other democratic country in that respect?
Like for example a General Election with Labour offering a vote on the deal and the Tories saying WE will decide what the deal is?
I don’t often have a look on this thread but having done so, I was was wondering whether someone could put up a poll to see whether vsc people would vote to remain or leave knowing what we know now.
Apologies if this has already been done.
I voted to remain in the original poll by the way and would still vote the same way.
Like for example a General Election with Labour offering a vote on the deal and the Tories saying WE will decide what the deal is?
Labour would have to change their official position of course. I do sometimes wonder what it actually is, but so far it doesn't seem to include a referendum on the final deal.
I despair that that there are no further comments about the ERG announcements earlier today .
Has everyone accepted this now?
I imagine you'll find most of the people you're referring to lie between 'austerity' as you put it and chucking money at it and hoping for the best.
And in any case. It's this over simplification of the economic argument that's basically let the government off scot-free with that policy for almost a decade.
Talking of comparisons with the off-topic political attitudes and those of the football sections of the forum, the very same people who agree with the austerity strategy of our football club owners are dead against our country applying the same policy!
I imagine you'll find most of the people you're referring to lie between 'austerity' as you put it and chucking money at it and hoping for the best.
And in any case. It's this over simplification of the economic argument that's basically let the government off scot-free with that policy for almost a decade.
You imagine wrong.
Sproty
For a man who claims to be interested in history, you've got very little understanding of history.
Putin is doing what every leader of Russia has done since Peter the Great.
Rattle the sabre at the West. Threaten to unleash the hordes. Bully and bluster and see who will be prepared to call your bluff.
None of them has ever seen what Russia could be if it properly partnered with the West. They prefer to paint the West as the devil that can be used to keep the serfs in line.
Unfortunately, they have always been aided in that by various Useful Idiots in the West.
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
Sproty
For a man who claims to be interested in history, you've got very little understanding of history.
Putin is doing what every leader of Russia has done since Peter the Great.
Rattle the sabre at the West. Threaten to unleash the hordes. Bully and bluster and see who will be prepared to call your bluff.
None of them has ever seen what Russia could be if it properly partnered with the West. They prefer to paint the West as the devil that can be used to keep the serfs in line.
Unfortunately, they have always been aided in that by various Useful Idiots in the West.
You really are out of your depth now, give me some examples of when Peter the great threatened the West, Empress Elizabeth threatened the West,Catherine the great threatened the West.show me some Historical examples of when any Tsar of Russia since Peter the great threatened the West?
Sproty
For a man who claims to be interested in history, you've got very little understanding of history.
Putin is doing what every leader of Russia has done since Peter the Great.
Rattle the sabre at the West. Threaten to unleash the hordes. Bully and bluster and see who will be prepared to call your bluff.
None of them has ever seen what Russia could be if it properly partnered with the West. They prefer to paint the West as the devil that can be used to keep the serfs in line.
Unfortunately, they have always been aided in that by various Useful Idiots in the West.
You really are out of your depth now, give me some examples of when Peter the great threatened the West, Empress Elizabeth threatened the West,Catherine the great threatened the West.show me some Historical examples of when any Tsar of Russia since Peter the great threatened the West?
Sproty
By The West, I meant countries to the west of Russia.
Russia has invaded and/or threatened countries to its west on a regular basis for centuries. Putin is the latest in a long line of Tsars with the mindset that the Russia/Europe relationship is a zero sum game. If someone else isn't losing, you can't be winning.
Of course we used to be like that in Western Europe too. The Treaty of Rome --> EU process was always primarily about getting us out of that historical mindset and realising that by working together we all rise.
I re
Interesting that support for Putin seems to go hand in hand with disdain for the EU these days. Almost as if people are pining for the days when generations marched off to war in Europe on a regular basis.
Evidence of what?
Let me get this right Sproty. You're wanting me to give you evidence of Russia having invaded or threatened countries to its West over the past 300 years?
Give me some examples of when any Tsar of Russia since Peter the Great
Invaded a Sovereign European state without prior provocation.
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
You know we're still part of NATO x
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
You know we're still part of NATO x
Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters around the globe.
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
Don't be daft are you not aware of these agreements :-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancaster_House_Treaties
We have both been looking to sign a far- reaching joint agreement of this type for decades - it makes sense and involves far more than 100 troops and 3 Chinooks !
Incidentally Peter the Great' s finest military achievements were against the Swedes
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.biography.com/people/peter-the-great-9542228&ved=2ahUKEwjEm9C45sPdAhVID8AKHeKHBuAQFjANegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0pZRRoajwniymJQMT54c7s
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
Don't be daft are you not aware of these agreements :-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancaster_House_Treaties
We have both been looking to sign a far- reaching joint agreement of this type for decades - it makes sense and involves far more than 100 troops and 3 Chinooks !
Incidentally Peter the Great' s finest military achievements were against the Swedes
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.biography.com/people/peter-the-great-9542228&ved=2ahUKEwjEm9C45sPdAhVID8AKHeKHBuAQFjANegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0pZRRoajwniymJQMT54c7s
Yes Charles the 12 th of Sweden was probably one of the best generals of all time. He didn't blink at the thought of Pitting 40,000 Swedes against An Enemy over 100,000 strong. He was Also the victim of his own men who got fed up and shot him in the head.
The Great Northern War was a clash of 2 superpowers Sweden and Russia
It wasn't Russia picking on the West it was all about two
leaders with Very large egos falling out.
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
You know we're still part of NATO x
Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters around the globe.
Yes we are so close that we have pulled all of our Armour out of Germany, that leaves the 60,000 stroking German Army a bit vulnerable, considering Putin has just put 300,000 troops into the field.
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
You know we're still part of NATO x
Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters around the globe.
Yes we are so close that we have pulled all of our Armour out of Germany, that leaves the 60,000 stroking German Army a bit vulnerable, considering Putin has just put 300,000 troops into the field.
186, 431 Troops
432 - combat tanks
4620- armoured fighting vehicles
Do you just pluck figures out of the air in the hope that you won't get caught out ?
Just for the record how many troops can we put in the field ?
Incidentally I was originally referring to the relationship between France and ourselves.
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
You know we're still part of NATO x
Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters around the globe.
Yes we are so close that we have pulled all of our Armour out of Germany, that leaves the 60,000 stroking German Army a bit vulnerable, considering Putin has just put 300,000 troops into the field.
186, 431 Troops
432 - combat tanks
4620- armoured fighting vehicles
Do you just pluck figures out of the air in the hope that you won't get caught out ?
Just for the record how many troops can we put in the field ?
Incidentally I was originally referring to the relationship between France and ourselves.
How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
You know we're still part of NATO x
Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters around the globe.
Yes we are so close that we have pulled all of our Armour out of Germany, that leaves the 60,000 stroking German Army a bit vulnerable, considering Putin has just put 300,000 troops into the field.
186, 431 Troops
432 - combat tanks
4620- armoured fighting vehicles
Do you just pluck figures out of the air in the hope that you won't get caught out ?
Just for the record how many troops can we put in the field ?
Incidentally I was originally referring to the relationship between France and ourselves.How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours ?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD
There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?
We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them
3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!
You know we're still part of NATO x
Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters around the globe.
Yes we are so close that we have pulled all of our Armour out of Germany, that leaves the 60,000 stroking German Army a bit vulnerable, considering Putin has just put 300,000 troops into the field.
186, 431 Troops
432 - combat tanks
4620- armoured fighting vehicles
Do you just pluck figures out of the air in the hope that you won't get caught out ?
Just for the record how many troops can we put in the field ?
Incidentally I was originally referring to the relationship between France and ourselves.
No I merely read the full Wikipedia Article you have just quoted from! in March 2018 there were 61,500 German Soldiers on active service!
Oh quelle surprise , NOT ! Hello Glynn nice to see the 'Menagerie of four ' all out in Force.
I would say 61,500 the rest of the figure is the service corps, which we out sourced to private companies, such as Sodexo, Capita and Serco
I'm counting Bayonet Strength the rest are not classed as regular front line infantry.
Oh quelle surprise , NOT ! Hello Glynn nice to see the 'Menagerie of four ' all out in Force.
I would say 61,500 the rest of the figure is the service corps, which we out sourced to private companies, such as Sodexo, Capita and Serco
I'm counting Bayonet Strength the rest are not classed as regular front line infantry.
Get Lynn Wigley and I have something in common! We are both puzzled as to how an Army of 180,000 can only have 60,000 front line troops.
I have done some digging and the German army. Is on its Arse!
2 Armoured divisions and an Airbourne division allegedly.
Well according to the SPIEGEL Magazine and the Economist, the German army has only 95 Leo 2 Tanks in operational order out of 244, the rest have been stripped for parts. That not enough for a Division. Only 7 out of 67 Ch 53 Transport Helicopters operational,12 out of 50 Tiger Helicopters operational,39 out of 128 Typhoon Fighters operational,all of its Tornados grounded due to Bolts flying off and no lights in Cockpit. Germany's entire submarine fleet of 6 Subs Not Sea worthy!
A German Officer also managed to claim Benefits and live a double life.
In 2014 A German Battalion went to Norway on excercise, none of their Boxer AFVs had any guns, the German soldiers painted wooden broom handles black and stuck em on to make it look like the vehicles had weapons.
It's a far cry from 1990 when the Bundewher was half a Million strong and had 5,000 AFVs.
It' makes you wonder what sort of a state the French and others are In?
If Vladimir turned his 300k troops West they would be in Rotterdam in 5 days!
Oh and Hoola I doubt the German army has any bayonets to put onto its Broom handles.
Because you originally said 61,500 on active service, but I was getting mixed up. I thought 'active service' just meant the soldiers actually deployed and didn't count those not deployed so I thought that meant there were more soldiers than the number you stated. My mistake.
Meanwhile, back to Brexit.
Wonderful statement of where we are going from May today.
We're either going to have her deal which will mean a lot of damage to the UK economy. Or we're going to have no deal, which will mean a huge amount of damage to the UK economy.
Good to see that we've got a clear choice now.
Well, Tusk has now said Chequers won't fly. I'm struggling to see how May can stay in the job much longer.
I agree with you Glyn that a GE in itself won't solve anything. I think it is likely because I can hardly see how the Government can carry on, even under a different leader, if the deal they offer to Parliament (including No Deal) is rejected.
However, given that the most likely outcome of a GE would be a minority Labour Government rather a minority Conservative one, I think it makes the prospect of a second referendum much more likely.
Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Again... why are you constantly f**king banging on about a war that isn't even on the horizon?...Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenchesSorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Err. 1918?
We never won the First World War, there was an Armistice. The Germans were convinced that they had been sold down the river by their Government and that bitterness was one of the most powerful drivers for starting hostilities in 1939.
Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
That makes me wonder why Japan surrendered.
Sorry I have merely been answering points by other forum members,you don't have to read my posts I never read yours!Again... why are you constantly f**king banging on about a war that isn't even on the horizon?...Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Sorry I have merely been answering points by other forum members,you don't have to read my posts I never read yours!Again... why are you constantly f**king banging on about a war that isn't even on the horizon?...Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Sorry I have merely been answering points by other forum members,you don't have to read my posts I never read yours!Again... why are you constantly f**king banging on about a war that isn't even on the horizon?...Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
That makes me wonder why Japan surrendered.
Okinawa was Japanese territory, and did we not send our troops onto the other Japanese Islands after the surrender ?
Sorry I have merely been answering points by other forum members,you don't have to read my posts I never read yours!Again... why are you constantly f**king banging on about a war that isn't even on the horizon?...Sorry chum to win a war you need to occupy Territoy and for that you need Infantry.Who needs an army? The next world war will not be fought in the trenches.
The only " standing army " will be the hackers but Sproty still lives in the past .
I'm not quite sure he's even aware that the Berlin wall has come down yet !
Apart from the one you have just quoted? 😀😀
Germany didn't lose WWI?
We're right through the looking glass now then.
I assume they paid reparations, gave up vast swathes of eastern land and demilitarised the Rhineland on a whim then?
We didn't do too well before joining the EU did we?
We built cars, motorbikes, aeroplanes, ships, tv and radios so on and so forth. All we have now are call centres and a KFC and McDonalds on every street corner, while the Germans flood our country with their vastly over-rated overpriced cars.
We should go to the wire with them, let them blink first and if it's no deal then tax their products off the market.
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.Spot on, pretty sure they still owe us after ww2 . Certainly morally if not financially
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.I think any respect for our political leaders disappeared when Cameron threw his toys out of the pram, since then we have suffered pure humiliation at the hands of the tories, they couldn't negotiate a round of drinks at Oktoberfest.
We didn't do too well before joining the EU did we?
We built cars, motorbikes, aeroplanes, ships, tv and radios so on and so forth. All we have now are call centres and a KFC and McDonalds on every street corner, while the Germans flood our country with their vastly over-rated overpriced cars.
We should go to the wire with them, let them blink first and if it's no deal then tax their products off the market.
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.
And you obviously don't know much about WWII either if you think we saved Poland.
I was thinking about the Poles who gave their lives in the Battle of Britain. And given the fact that their airmen shot down something like 1 in 10 of all the Luftwaffe planes downed in that battle, and arguably tipped the balance, maybe the thanks should be going the other way.Unlike you I am well read on the 'Talks' between Churchill and Stalin the information came from books not Wikipedia.
And before trumpeting anything about our commitment to Polish freedom, you'd be advised to Google Churchill, Stalin and the blue tick.
And that's before you start shaking your head at the stupidity of framing 2018 policy in the light of what happened in WWII. It's farcical that folk are still bringing that up. If you're digging up old history, why should we expect to get a trade deal with the USA when we burned the White House in 1814?
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.
And you obviously don't know much about WWII either if you think we saved Poland.
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.
And you obviously don't know much about WWII either if you think we saved Poland.
Obviously the Soviet Union eventually 'saved' Poland, but had we not continued alone through the dark days of 1940 the war would have been over and Poland would have been consumed into Germania.
Yes, the Poles who died in the RAF were very brave men who I have great respect for, unlike their snidey politicians of today.
How can you take the likes of Tusk seriously with his childish Instagram post about cherries and cakes. He needs to remember how many Brits died to save his third rate country from his mates in Berlin. Show some respect.
And you obviously don't know much about WWII either if you think we saved Poland.
Obviously the Soviet Union eventually 'saved' Poland, but had we not continued alone through the dark days of 1940 the war would have been over and Poland would have been consumed into Germania.
Yes, the Poles who died in the RAF were very brave men who I have great respect for, unlike their snidey politicians of today.
Can't see why we joined in the first place. We are an island and never have been and never will be part of their clique. We have more in common with our commonwealth, they are our family.
Interesting...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308
Interesting...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308
That to me looks like preparations for a General Election
BJWwhat does it make you wonder?
The further we've got into Brexit, the clearer it's become that the economy.ic effects are going to be somewhere between bad and horrific.
But none of that seems enough to convince any Brexit supporter to change their minds.
Which makes you wonder...
"prepared to lose some money" sums up how well informed you are and how much credence you have given to the case made on this thread for how we all will be affected by brexit.the bulk of the people who voted out were over 65 so that won’t affect many of them and the low incomes so it probably won’t affect them that badly either so my point stands, and we will see how much unemployment goes up won’t we
When UK based companies cannot sell to their main export markets there will inevitably be unemployment on a scale you clearly haven't considered.
You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that, then."prepared to lose some money" sums up how well informed you are and how much credence you have given to the case made on this thread for how we all will be affected by brexit.the bulk of the people who voted out were over 65 so that won’t affect many of them and the low incomes so it probably won’t affect them that badly either so my point stands, and we will see how much unemployment goes up won’t we
When UK based companies cannot sell to their main export markets there will inevitably be unemployment on a scale you clearly haven't considered.
You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that, then. Think what?"prepared to lose some money" sums up how well informed you are and how much credence you have given to the case made on this thread for how we all will be affected by brexit.the bulk of the people who voted out were over 65 so that won’t affect many of them and the low incomes so it probably won’t affect them that badly either so my point stands, and we will see how much unemployment goes up won’t we
When UK based companies cannot sell to their main export markets there will inevitably be unemployment on a scale you clearly haven't considered.
In the same way bst in labour you have a guy that thinks certain ira bombers to be knighted they could well be bombers that have killed peoples mums dads kids grandkids you have a moral duty to address that surley? But will you?
My god your a knob but that’s life
In the same way bst in labour you have a guy that thinks certain ira bombers to be knighted they could well be bombers that have killed peoples mums dads kids grandkids you have a moral duty to address that surley? But will you?
Wilts that's fine but in the last few years McDonnell said certain ones should be knighted that is morally wrong
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/09/what-did-jeremy-corbyn-s-new-shadow-chancellor-really-say-about-ira?amp. Honoured not knighted but not much differenceWilts that's fine but in the last few years McDonnell said certain ones should be knighted that is morally wrong
I can't find any reference to that anywhere and would like to see it for myself.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/09/what-did-jeremy-corbyn-s-new-shadow-chancellor-really-say-about-ira?amp. Honoured not knighted but not much differenceWilts that's fine but in the last few years McDonnell said certain ones should be knighted that is morally wrong
I can't find any reference to that anywhere and would like to see it for myself.
It's says honoured not knighted as I posted above dik head
Wilts that's fine but in the last few years McDonnell said certain ones should be knighted that is morally wrong
In the same way bst in labour you have a guy that thinks certain ira bombers to be knighted they could well be bombers that have killed peoples mums dads kids grandkids you have a moral duty to address that surley? But will you?
I bet you were gutted when they signed the Good Friday Agreement. All those IRA murderers being let off. If only we had kept fighting and kept the population of Northern Ireland in fear of their lives and brought death and misery to dozens more innocent families including those of British soldiers. And dont you come at me with you don't know what you are talking about either - I have been 3 minutes away from a bomb going off.
If members of the royal family can shake hands with prominent former IRA leaders - who are you to tell anyone what is and isn't moral?
Still someone got shot by paramiliteries over the weekend so if your Brexit does go properly wrong you might get your way of bringing real chaos back to the country.
It's says honoured not knighted as I posted above dik head
lol rent boyIt's says honoured not knighted as I posted above dik head
You're the d**khead who kept saying knighted.
In the same way bst in labour you have a guy that thinks certain ira bombers to be knighted they could well be bombers that have killed peoples mums dads kids grandkids you have a moral duty to address that surley? But will you?
I bet you were gutted when they signed the Good Friday Agreement. All those IRA murderers being let off. If only we had kept fighting and kept the population of Northern Ireland in fear of their lives and brought death and misery to dozens more innocent families including those of British soldiers. And dont you come at me with you don't know what you are talking about either - I have been 3 minutes away from a bomb going off.
If members of the royal family can shake hands with prominent former IRA leaders - who are you to tell anyone what is and isn't moral?
Still someone got shot by paramiliteries over the weekend so if your Brexit does go properly wrong you might get your way of bringing real chaos back to the country.
Wilts.
I agree with everything you say there.
But if we're talking about people not wanting the GFA to be signed, there was, as you well know, a person who is now very prominent in national politics who said at the time that an Assembly was not what people had laid down their lives for, and that anything less than a United Ireland was unacceptable.
I assume you agree with me that he was wrong. Because he was clearly advocating that the armed struggle should go on. And you're saying that it was right that the armed struggle ended then.
So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?
So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?
So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?
So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?Remain means Remain.
So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?
Best of three?
In the same way bst in labour you have a guy that thinks certain ira bombers to be knighted they could well be bombers that have killed peoples mums dads kids grandkids you have a moral duty to address that surley? But will you?
I bet you were gutted when they signed the Good Friday Agreement. All those IRA murderers being let off. If only we had kept fighting and kept the population of Northern Ireland in fear of their lives and brought death and misery to dozens more innocent families including those of British soldiers. And dont you come at me with you don't know what you are talking about either - I have been 3 minutes away from a bomb going off.
If members of the royal family can shake hands with prominent former IRA leaders - who are you to tell anyone what is and isn't moral?
Still someone got shot by paramiliteries over the weekend so if your Brexit does go properly wrong you might get your way of bringing real chaos back to the country.
Wilts.
I agree with everything you say there.
But if we're talking about people not wanting the GFA to be signed, there was, as you well know, a person who is now very prominent in national politics who said at the time that an Assembly was not what people had laid down their lives for, and that anything less than a United Ireland was unacceptable.
I assume you agree with me that he was wrong. Because he was clearly advocating that the armed struggle should go on. And you're saying that it was right that the armed struggle ended then.
Sorry Billy I am afraid I dont know who you are referring to? As it must be someone who has the same views as blackpool is it someone in the DUP?
It is clearly not either Corbyn or McDonnell as they both spoke and campaigned for the GFA. McDonnell's speech to a republican meeting where he made the comments blackpool misquoted above were to persuade them to fully implement the GFA (so he said) and Corbyn said he hoped it would bring 'peace, hope and reconciliation in Ireland' when spoke for it in Parliament?
I think you are getting mixed up with with the Thatcher's Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985 which Corbyn (and others) did oppose. In which case you are Jacob Rees Mogg and I claim my top hat back!
Agreed on everything else you said tho.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/18/john-mcdonnell-apologises-for-ira-comment-labour
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland
So if we have another vote and it's 49% for out and 51% for stay, how is that fair?
Best of three?
Do we go on and on it's a nightmare.
Good luck to your daughter hoola,I'm sure they will come to a agreement that means she will be able to stay, you keep saying about the economy yet you vote labour, a nice woman at the conference called for a general strike would that be good for the economy? Would it stop you voting labour?If you want to drag the conversation back to who/why you vote for then look no further than the brexit mess and austerity, both which have been condemned by experts and neither supported by experts. It is only the fact that the rich and powrful control the media that gets the CONservatives back into power.
Post deleted so I can't quote Bpool directly so this'll have to do! What has one Labour MPs views on a general strike got to do with the price of fish? Hoola writes an insightful post about how Brexit affects him personally and you start chuntering about Labour. If you can't answer any of his points and have to deflect that obviously, that's probably a good sign that maybe Brexit isn't what you thought it was.Good luck to your daughter hoola,I'm sure they will come to a agreement that means she will be able to stay, you keep saying about the economy yet you vote labour, a nice woman at the conference called for a general strike would that be good for the economy? Would it stop you voting labour?If you want to drag the conversation back to who/why you vote for then look no further than the brexit mess and austerity, both which have been condemned by experts and neither supported by experts. It is only the fact that the rich and powrful control the media that gets the CONservatives back into power.
Post deleted so I can't quote Bpool directly so this'll have to do! What has one Labour MPs views on a general strike got to do with the price of fish? Hoola writes an insightful post about how Brexit affects him personally and you start chuntering about Labour. If you can't answer any of his points and have to deflect that obviously, that's probably a good sign that maybe Brexit isn't what you thought it was.Good luck to your daughter hoola,I'm sure they will come to a agreement that means she will be able to stay, you keep saying about the economy yet you vote labour, a nice woman at the conference called for a general strike would that be good for the economy? Would it stop you voting labour?If you want to drag the conversation back to who/why you vote for then look no further than the brexit mess and austerity, both which have been condemned by experts and neither supported by experts. It is only the fact that the rich and powrful control the media that gets the CONservatives back into power.
Donnywolf let's say there was a second referendum and leave won again we would still be in the same place, do you think anyone would accept the result?
They might not have accepted it mate but I would have and I think most people who voted leave would have ,they certainly would not have demanded another referendum within a year or 2
Because which ever result happens we will be fine anyway, it won't make you ill(unless you worry to much) there are many countries not in the eu that are ok and we would be to
If they were to have a second vote and remain win so Be it while I think it would be unfair it is what it is, life is to short to worry what might be what could happen in ten years etc. Whatever the outcome in the end it will work out is has every other time
I deleted the post as there is no point going round in circles, your never going to change your opinion and I'm not mine
At last, someone on the BBC who asks questions properly. Ben Bradley MP on Stephen Nolan last night:thanks GW the interviewee is Ben Bradley member for Mansfield, Nolan carved him up, but nicely. Great interview.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000jd9
It starts about 10 minutes in, then the phones goes down but then go to 33 minutes for the rest of it.
I listened to it live, it's an absolute car crash of an interview from someone backing the 'Boris Plan' but has his arse handed to him on a plate when it's shown he has completely no idea how it's supposed to work in Ireland and he comes up with guess after guess when Nolan doesn't let him get away with it. I bet this interview won't get mentioned much elsewhere in the media!
For anyone with an hour and half to spare I went to a talk the other evening with the international trade negotiators Jason Hunter and Stuart Brown discussing what leaving on WTO rules will mean.thanks wilts, I will listen when I get a chance, but it appears to confirm what the Nolan interview exposed that the MP from Mansfield conceded that with the Boris plan everything would change but be the same.
Jason's talk is here, about 20 mins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtkP3Hkc1cM
There was a Q&A at the end where I get to ask a question but there is a lot of rambling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmUJzXYiku8
For those who want a quick summary:
After Brexit everything stops. Everything. 750+ treaties covering areas as varied as docking permissions for cross-channel ferries & aircraft safety certification to veterinary regulation and platform permission for the Euro-Shuttle.
A bloke asked how he could guarantee he would be able to provide and ship an order of drones he had for an event in Belgium next June. The answer - set up a shell company in Estonia.
I'll do a bit of crystal ball gazing here.
Everyone knows that any form of Brexit would be damaging to the economy.
Everyone knows that the only reason we had a Referendum was to sort out the issues on the Right of the Tory party.
Everyone knows that Johnson carefully calculated which way to dive in in the Referendum to maximise his chances of becoming PM.
Everyone knows that every shenanigan in the Brexit manoeuvring over the past 2 years has been about who comes out the other side as PM.
Start of from there and the logic of where we are going is bleeding obvious.
1) Johnson needs May to fail. To have Chequers thrown out. To go to the wire of March next year with no deal on the table.
2) Then there is a crisis. May is dead. She resigns if she has any pride. If not she's booted out.
3) Johnson replaces her as PM.
4) But Johnson is not so stupid as to then pitch us into a No Deal scenario. He knows that would be catastrophic and he would go down in history as the man who sent Britain off to a third rate future and destroyed the Union. He doesn't want that.
5) So he concocts some cock and bull story about the negotiations having gone to hell. And how we need a longer period to sort out shit out. And we end up with PM Johnson and not much else changing. Which was always his aim.
6) And yes, that wouldn't satisfy the Europhobes on the Right of the Tory party. But he faces them down by saying, "So sack me then. And go into chaos. And get PM Corbyn."
7) And the issue of UK Vs Europe remains unresolved for another decade.
And the entire f**king country will have been played to satisfy that bas**rd's ego.
Watch it unfold over the next 6 months.
BFYP
The EU are doing the best for the EU. What do you expect someone to do in a negotiation?
He certainly is trying. What surprises.me is that it's our government that are the bad guys. Are the e.u doing the best for everyone? I would suggest not.The EU are quite within their rights to dig their heels in and defend their red lines to stick up for their citizens. This is like having a lodger who suddenly decides they don't want to pay rent anymore, but they still want to sleep in your house, park on the drive, and have you make a cuppa for them every morning. Then for good measure that lodger regularly takes to social media to slag you off and stamp their feet about how unfair you're being. If that happened, you'd stick up for you and yours, wouldn't you?
Yes the lodger who pays way over what they should do and who keeps you house safe whilst you pi**off to the Bingo every nightWell, that's not quite a fair comparison is it. But if you felt that way and you decided to leave, then they still have f**k all obligation to you, do they? It's like me telling my bank I don't fancy paying the mortgage on my house anymore and letting my utilities know I've cancelled their direct debits but expecting to be able to live in it anyway with gas and lecky.
Yes the lodger who pays way over what they should do and who keeps you house safe whilst you pi**off to the Bingo every nightAs RedJ says, if that lodger feels hard done by they can leave but they don't get to stamp their feet about not getting to park on the drive anymore. They've got no obligation to make things easy for us. Of course, we've got no obligation to give them what they want either, but we don't have anything to bargain with.
Yes the lodger who pays way over what they should do and who keeps you house safe whilst you pi**off to the Bingo every nightWell, that's not quite a fair comparison is it. But if you felt that way and you decided to leave, then they still have f**k all obligation to you, do they? It's like me telling my bank I don't fancy paying the mortgage on my house anymore and letting my utilities know I've cancelled their direct debits but expecting to be able to live in it anyway with gas and lecky.
Yes the lodger who pays way over what they should do and who keeps you house safe whilst you pi**off to the Bingo every nightWell, that's not quite a fair comparison is it. But if you felt that way and you decided to leave, then they still have f**k all obligation to you, do they? It's like me telling my bank I don't fancy paying the mortgage on my house anymore and letting my utilities know I've cancelled their direct debits but expecting to be able to live in it anyway with gas and lecky.
So smacked yer bitty over the lodger and now we have to move on to home owners who don't want to pay their mortgage 😂
A bad metaphor repeatedly stretched to the breaking point of meaninglessness.Twits out in force tonite I see
Further proof that you have nothing to come back with.
But but but I thought it was the Remainers that were mean and snotty?Further proof that you have nothing to come back with.
Aye. When you've got feck all useful to say, attack the man not the ball.
But but but I thought it was the Remainers that were mean and snotty?Further proof that you have nothing to come back with.
Aye. When you've got feck all useful to say, attack the man not the ball.
How many more times must the Maybot kick the can down the road before the Country has had enough? As a leave voter it,s become obvious to me that a decision to leave was more complex then the average man in the street realised. Having said that I still Think the eu are making things as difficult as possible
How many more times must the Maybot kick the can down the road before the Country has had enough? As a leave voter it,s become obvious to me that a decision to leave was more complex then the average man in the street realised. Having said that I still Think the eu are making things as difficult as possible
Having said that I still Think the eu are making things as difficult as possible
How many more times must the Maybot kick the can down the road before the Country has had enough? As a leave voter it,s become obvious to me that a decision to leave was more complex then the average man in the street realised. Having said that I still Think the eu are making things as difficult as possible
Having said that I still Think the eu are making things as difficult as possible
TBF Filo, it's in their interest. They do want us to stay, and if they can "help" trigger another referendum or even make Maybot cancel Brexit altogether, they will.
Macron wants France to i troduce Visas for UK citizens visting and living in France, are we negotiating with individual Countries now, or one block?
Better and more logically argued than most of the piss and wind you hear from Brexiteers. But there's still a kernel of nonsense at the heart of it.Christ, what are you blithering in about. It wouldn't be called a comprehensive deal, if it wasnt as comprehensive as the CU and SM
" The Northern Irish problems largely disappear if a comprehensive free-trade arrangement can be agreed."
No. They don't. Because, unless the "comprehensive" treaty is as comprehensive as the SM and CU, the NI/RoI border still becomes a trade border between different systems. Which requires checks and infrastructure.
And why on earth should the EU allow us to have a deal that replicates all the benefits of the SM and CU and have the freedom to sort out own trade elsewhere?
And if we haven't got that freedom, the swivel-eyed right wing loons in the Tory party will vote down any agreement.
That's been the core problem for 2 years. It's still the core problem. There's no sign of it not remaining the core problem.
Folks. We're in the presence of Genius.It wasn't me that wrote that article referring to a comprehensive deal.
Boomstick is about to explain to us what no one has yet been able to figure out in 2 years of negotiations between Britain and the EU.
How we get a deal that's as comprehensive as the CU and SM whilst allowing Britain all the benefits of not having to abide by the collective responsibilities that come with membership of the CU and SM. And satisfies the nutters on the Right of the Tory party whose heads will explode if anyone so much as hints that we'll stay part of the CU and SM.
We sit in rapt attention, like Kwai Chang Caine at the feet of Blind Master Po.
By the way, the other Big Lie being pushed (and which you are buying into Selby) is that the EU are making the border issue more than it needs to be to punish us.The EU ARE using it as a bargaining chip. Understandably so.
Absolute b*llocks.
The EU is saying that, if a hard border returns in Ireland, that will have a seriously detrimental effect on an EU member (Ireland) through increased costs and a threat to peace. So, the EU is saying, if you, Britain, insist on a situation where a hard border comes back, we, the EU, will not negotiate any favourable trade terms with you. Because why should WE give YOU benefits when one of our members is going to suffer?
That's how negotiations start. With a clear statement of principles.
The EU has consistently said that there is a simple way out of this: the UK stays in the CU and SM and the problem vanishes. Or, if not, NI stays in the CU and SM and you, UK, sort out what that means for the relationship between NI and the rest of the UK. Or, YOU, UK, come up with a sensible alternative.
It's really that simple. Anyone who tells you otherwise is playing you for an idiot. You might want to stop and ask yourself why they are doing it.
Billy, I respect your opinions although I don't agree with lots on this subject, but I would like to know your thoughts on this.
It was reported this morning that the Republic of Ireland had a meeting with high ranking EU officials and was assured in the event of NO DEAL there would be NO HARD BORDER with the UK.
Now come on do a deal and a hard border, no deal and no hard border, that has to be an exposure of putting up a delaying tactic. Add to which because of the different vat and other taxes between the UK and the EU the bloody border already works efficiently already to both sides agreement.
The cat has been well and truly let out of the bag on this subject mate.
Interestingly I’ve recently spent some time working in the West Midlands. The landlady of the b&b I stayed with was an Italian who had moved to the U.K. with her English husband some years ago. One evening we began talking about Brexit and the EU and she was surprisingly critical of the EU and the influence it’s having on the country.
Apparently there’s a strong feeling in the country that strict financial rules imposed by the EU mean the Italian Government is restricted in its ability to help the country out of its present financial crisis. That, coupled with a distinctly euro sceptic government is driving anti EU sentiment. They fully expect, and hope, that Italy will be the next country to leave the EU.
Boomstick.Didn't say anything got my goat old lad. Just said what I think will happen.
The whole issue really is very, very simple. Hold your nose for a moment and go through these points 1 by 1 and tell me which ones you think are unreasonable.
This is the EU's stance on the Irish border issue. It's been their stance for more than 2 years. Tell me which bits you think are unfair.
The EU says this to us:
1) You want a trade deal with us that gives you benefits after you leave. Great. Let's talk. But be aware that we have a big red line. We're not going to agree to a deal that gives YOU benefits but hurts one of US. Fair?
2) If a deal results in a worse border situation between RoI and NI, that will hurt RoI. That's not fair. They didn't vote for Brexit. You did. So we'll not bend over to help you if you don't make sure that RoI doesn't get hurt. Fair?
3) There's a dead easy way to stop the border being an issue. You can stay inside the CU and SM. Fair?
4) Opinion poll after opinion poll tells us that solution is supported by a big majority in the UK. We KNOW it's not supported by the Tory party, but hey, that's your party's problem. Fair?
5) If you're not prepared to accept that solution then it is your responsibility to tell us what alternative ideas you have. Fair?
6) We've had two years now and you've come up with nothing better than shouting "Technology!" "Switzerland!" We need a bit more than that. Fair?
7) Tell you what. We know you're struggling here so here's a deal. Why don't we just let you stay in the CU and park the border question until you sort out what you want to do? Fair?
Go on BS. Tell me what bit of that gets your goat.
EDIT:
I forgot the final point.
8) What's that you say Mrs May? Your swivel-eyed rabid right wing won't accept 7? Oh dear! This is a mess then isn't it?
And what's that Mrs May? Because of this message, YOU want US to compromise further. I'm not sure you've quite got the hang of this negotiation thing Mrs May! YOU want US to take a big hit to get YOU out of a political mess of your own making? I think you know the answer to that one Mrs May.
So. Looks like you've only got two choices then. Go for the No Deal Brexit that you've been talking about for the past 2 years and lose any chance of us giving you any sort of deal in future. Or face down the Johnsons and Rees-Moggs and Redwoods and Foxes that got you into this f**king mess and do what is right for your country.
If there is a ‘People’s Vote’ and Remain come out winners by a score of 51% against 49%, would they then support a third vote? Where does this end?
Boomstick.Didn't say anything got my goat old lad. Just said what I think will happen.
The whole issue really is very, very simple. Hold your nose for a moment and go through these points 1 by 1 and tell me which ones you think are unreasonable.
This is the EU's stance on the Irish border issue. It's been their stance for more than 2 years. Tell me which bits you think are unfair.
The EU says this to us:
1) You want a trade deal with us that gives you benefits after you leave. Great. Let's talk. But be aware that we have a big red line. We're not going to agree to a deal that gives YOU benefits but hurts one of US. Fair?
2) If a deal results in a worse border situation between RoI and NI, that will hurt RoI. That's not fair. They didn't vote for Brexit. You did. So we'll not bend over to help you if you don't make sure that RoI doesn't get hurt. Fair?
3) There's a dead easy way to stop the border being an issue. You can stay inside the CU and SM. Fair?
4) Opinion poll after opinion poll tells us that solution is supported by a big majority in the UK. We KNOW it's not supported by the Tory party, but hey, that's your party's problem. Fair?
5) If you're not prepared to accept that solution then it is your responsibility to tell us what alternative ideas you have. Fair?
6) We've had two years now and you've come up with nothing better than shouting "Technology!" "Switzerland!" We need a bit more than that. Fair?
7) Tell you what. We know you're struggling here so here's a deal. Why don't we just let you stay in the CU and park the border question until you sort out what you want to do? Fair?
Go on BS. Tell me what bit of that gets your goat.
EDIT:
I forgot the final point.
8) What's that you say Mrs May? Your swivel-eyed rabid right wing won't accept 7? Oh dear! This is a mess then isn't it?
And what's that Mrs May? Because of this message, YOU want US to compromise further. I'm not sure you've quite got the hang of this negotiation thing Mrs May! YOU want US to take a big hit to get YOU out of a political mess of your own making? I think you know the answer to that one Mrs May.
So. Looks like you've only got two choices then. Go for the No Deal Brexit that you've been talking about for the past 2 years and lose any chance of us giving you any sort of deal in future. Or face down the Johnsons and Rees-Moggs and Redwoods and Foxes that got you into this f**king mess and do what is right for your country.
Aye, it's exactly what I said.Boomstick.Didn't say anything got my goat old lad. Just said what I think will happen.
The whole issue really is very, very simple. Hold your nose for a moment and go through these points 1 by 1 and tell me which ones you think are unreasonable.
This is the EU's stance on the Irish border issue. It's been their stance for more than 2 years. Tell me which bits you think are unfair.
The EU says this to us:
1) You want a trade deal with us that gives you benefits after you leave. Great. Let's talk. But be aware that we have a big red line. We're not going to agree to a deal that gives YOU benefits but hurts one of US. Fair?
2) If a deal results in a worse border situation between RoI and NI, that will hurt RoI. That's not fair. They didn't vote for Brexit. You did. So we'll not bend over to help you if you don't make sure that RoI doesn't get hurt. Fair?
3) There's a dead easy way to stop the border being an issue. You can stay inside the CU and SM. Fair?
4) Opinion poll after opinion poll tells us that solution is supported by a big majority in the UK. We KNOW it's not supported by the Tory party, but hey, that's your party's problem. Fair?
5) If you're not prepared to accept that solution then it is your responsibility to tell us what alternative ideas you have. Fair?
6) We've had two years now and you've come up with nothing better than shouting "Technology!" "Switzerland!" We need a bit more than that. Fair?
7) Tell you what. We know you're struggling here so here's a deal. Why don't we just let you stay in the CU and park the border question until you sort out what you want to do? Fair?
Go on BS. Tell me what bit of that gets your goat.
EDIT:
I forgot the final point.
8) What's that you say Mrs May? Your swivel-eyed rabid right wing won't accept 7? Oh dear! This is a mess then isn't it?
And what's that Mrs May? Because of this message, YOU want US to compromise further. I'm not sure you've quite got the hang of this negotiation thing Mrs May! YOU want US to take a big hit to get YOU out of a political mess of your own making? I think you know the answer to that one Mrs May.
So. Looks like you've only got two choices then. Go for the No Deal Brexit that you've been talking about for the past 2 years and lose any chance of us giving you any sort of deal in future. Or face down the Johnsons and Rees-Moggs and Redwoods and Foxes that got you into this f**king mess and do what is right for your country.
My mistake.
So when you said this...
"The EU ARE using it as a bargaining chip. Understandably so.
Afterall, they need to be seen to be playing hardball for 3 reasons.
1. They need to be perceived as a stronger than an individual country. (Also deterring any other country wanting out)
2. It's us that chose to leave, so there making us sweat."
...you didn't say it?
https://youtu.be/JvDAW5SjdaE
If you have a spare hour this is a very interesting viewpoint on N.Ireland and it's significance in the current talks. Well worth watching.
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.
Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.
Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?
But you're making out it's only one side that are supposedly wanting to get the 'right' result.
And completely ignoring the fact that illegally harvested data was used to swing the vote. And that a foreign power has subverted our democracy. Does that not bother you at all?
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.
Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?
But you're making out it's only one side that are supposedly wanting to get the 'right' result.
And completely ignoring the fact that illegally harvested data was used to swing the vote. And that a foreign power has subverted our democracy. Does that not bother you at all?
Eh? What are you talking about? Il ask it again. Do you appreciate how annoying it is for those who voted to leave that their opinion is deemed to be invalid? It’s not a hard question.
https://youtu.be/JvDAW5SjdaE
If you have a spare hour this is a very interesting viewpoint on N.Ireland and it's significance in the current talks. Well worth watching.
Well worth watching indeed, from both the Remain and Leave sides. Thanks for posting Hoola.
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.
Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?
But you're making out it's only one side that are supposedly wanting to get the 'right' result.
And completely ignoring the fact that illegally harvested data was used to swing the vote. And that a foreign power has subverted our democracy. Does that not bother you at all?
Eh? What are you talking about? Il ask it again. Do you appreciate how annoying it is for those who voted to leave that their opinion is deemed to be invalid? It’s not a hard question.
It might be annoying, yes. But not half as annoying as realising I've been sold a crock of shit. Or as annoying as realising an actual hostile foreign country had been interfering.
David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.
But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.
Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.
Odd, that, isn't it?
So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?
Wonder if selby thinks Mandeville would do a better job... ;)
You missed out the possibility of a GE bringing about a goverment who throws the decision back to the people again to bypass the Westminster blockage - which I think is the only way round the problem. Corbyn has moved towards that a bit by saying he'd do it if the Labour membership wanted it.
Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what, a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their graves watching this circus.
And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.
Err.
Benn. Not Bennett.
Autocorrect is giggling at this one.
https://youtu.be/JvDAW5SjdaE
If you have a spare hour this is a very interesting viewpoint on N.Ireland and it's significance in the current talks. Well worth watching.
Well worth watching indeed, from both the Remain and Leave sides. Thanks for posting Hoola.
It's a real pity that our media can't publish something as detailed, open and honest - but hey, that's one of the reasons we are where we are - a largely easily manipulated public!
Pleased you stuck with it NNK, I thought it was just yet another one of those " bollox filled " interviews but it was anything but .
Broomstick you NEED to watch this , it will open up the whole world of the " backstop " to you and the why's and wherefore's of the Referendum itself.
The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.
The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.
That's the difference.
The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.
The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.
That's the difference.
The difference being that the very 1st Referendum in 1975 was clearly laid out accurately for the public to make an " informed " choice when going into the ballot box but this one was muddy, confusing and brought about by lies, exaggerations, distortions and electoral fraud . When you thought it couldn't get any worse you then found out it was brought about by stealing and distorting individual's personal data and fuelled by huge doses of foreign money. All in all , taking this into account , do you really think this should stand or more importantly Do you really think it was an excellent exercise in democracy ?
The 17.4 million " biggest " vote ever argument is wearing thin, it also had the biggest vote ever against it . The numbers are meaningless, even the narrow margin of victory is rendered meaningless when held up in front of the contextual background.
The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.
The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.
That's the difference.
The difference being that the very 1st Referendum in 1975 was clearly laid out accurately for the public to make an " informed " choice when going into the ballot box but this one was muddy, confusing and brought about by lies, exaggerations, distortions and electoral fraud . When you thought it couldn't get any worse you then found out it was brought about by stealing and distorting individual's personal data and fuelled by huge doses of foreign money. All in all , taking this into account , do you really think this should stand or more importantly Do you really think it was an excellent exercise in democracy ?
The 17.4 million " biggest " vote ever argument is wearing thin, it also had the biggest vote ever against it . The numbers are meaningless, even the narrow margin of victory is rendered meaningless when held up in front of the contextual background.
The problem with that argument is that just about everything that the NO side said would happen at the time of the 1975 Referendum came to pass. Something that Leave was not slow to point out of course.
Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what, a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their graves watching this circus.
And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.
Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions, he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.
He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once again.
I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.
They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc
However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.
You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon memorial ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.
I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.
I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !
We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.
The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge.
" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "
Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.
Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what, a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their graves watching this circus.
And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.
Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions, he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.
He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once again.
I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.
They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc
However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.
You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon memorial ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.
I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.
I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !
We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.
The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge.
" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "
Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.
Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.
However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.
The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.
The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.
That's the difference.
The difference being that the very 1st Referendum in 1975 was clearly laid out accurately for the public to make an " informed " choice when going into the ballot box but this one was muddy, confusing and brought about by lies, exaggerations, distortions and electoral fraud . When you thought it couldn't get any worse you then found out it was brought about by stealing and distorting individual's personal data and fuelled by huge doses of foreign money. All in all , taking this into account , do you really think this should stand or more importantly Do you really think it was an excellent exercise in democracy ?
The 17.4 million " biggest " vote ever argument is wearing thin, it also had the biggest vote ever against it . The numbers are meaningless, even the narrow margin of victory is rendered meaningless when held up in front of the contextual background.
The problem with that argument is that just about everything that the NO side said would happen at the time of the 1975 Referendum came to pass. Something that Leave was not slow to point out of course.
How does that stand up to the comparison that just about everything the Leave side said during the 2016 referendum campaign hasn't come to pass? At least in 1975 the electorate were given good information and then they decided which way to vote based on it. Did that happen in 2016?
Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what, a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their graves watching this circus.
And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.
Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions, he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.
He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once again.
I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.
They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc
However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.
You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon memorial ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.
I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.
I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !
We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.
The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge.
" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "
Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.
Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.
However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.
I didn't realise it was the bad in Scawsby :ohmy:
Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what, a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their graves watching this circus.
And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.
Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions, he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.
He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once again.
I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.
They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc
However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.
You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon memorial ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.
I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.
I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !
We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.
The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge.
" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "
Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.
Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.
However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.
I didn't realise it was the bad in Scawsby :ohmy:
Actually, I don't live in Scawsby NNK, not too far away though. Come on mate, you know as well as I do that this country's been heading this way since Thatcher destroyed working class communities.
The sad thing is that no government ever since, of any political persuasion, has done anything about it.
I wonder if our political elite would pull together on the same side if we sent a united message that we no longer require their services in parliament or the house of Lords. And cannot see the point of the costs they incur on the taxpayers.
We are now all quite happy for the EU MP's to represent us in the Eu parliament in Brussels, and for our Laws to be set by the EU courts.
Do you think that the parties would speak with one voice.
Sydney I voted to join, I voted to stay in because I new we would fudge it and our leaders are poor. I was fuming at the time and have regretted not having a vote on the Maastricht Treaty, that is when we should have had everything put to us to decide the future.
Major and Cameron two idiots.
Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation? It seems to work for the US.
Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation? It seems to work for the US.
States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.
Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what, a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their graves watching this circus.
And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.
Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions, he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.
He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once again.
I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.
They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc
However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.
You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon memorial ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.
I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.
I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !
We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.
The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge.
" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "
Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.
Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.
However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.
Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation? It seems to work for the US.
States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.
Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation? It seems to work for the US.
States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.
I am genuinely interested to know what you consider to be wrong with a federation RB. Your reply did nothing to answer that.
TRB
Comparing the EU to Yugoslavia, or to the USSR as Hunt and one idiot on here did recently is really rather silly. It doesn't help the discussion.
Anyone can leave the EU whenever they want. The EU isn't beholden to give them particularly advantageous terms, but that's about the extent of it. The EU is not going to imprison secessionist leaders or send tanks into the capitals of countries who discuss leaving. So making those kind of comparisons is stupid. And doesn't help the tone of the discussion.
Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation? It seems to work for the US.
States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.
Texas might disagree...
Italy and many other countries are pretty much bankrupt, should uk France and Germany keep bailing the poorer counties out? Many countries in the eu have little if any money, at the minute that may be fine but let’s say other very poor countries join the eu, should it be a equal amount they contribute?
Italy and many other countries are pretty much bankrupt, should uk France and Germany keep bailing the poorer counties out? Many countries in the eu have little if any money, at the minute that may be fine but let’s say other very poor countries join the eu, should it be a equal amount they contribute?
"A possible French decision to reintroduce Customs checks".
Jesus f**king wept.
WE are leaving the EU.
WE have chosen to leave the Customs Union.
WE have spent 2 years threatening Europe that we're prepared to leave without any agreement on customs and borders.
Of COURSE there will be customs checks reintroduced at Calais if we don't sort out shit out. That would be a WTO requirement.
This infantile moaning that it's every other f**kers' fault that we're blundering into bloody chaos is unbelievable.
And as you suggest NNK if the Cabinet were shocked, what the f**k have they been expecting to happen?
We are an utter laughing stock.
Italy and many other countries are pretty much bankrupt, should uk France and Germany keep bailing the poorer counties out? Many countries in the eu have little if any money, at the minute that may be fine but let’s say other very poor countries join the eu, should it be a equal amount they contribute?
If the nutjobs in amongst the Tories get there way and push the UK out the UK could quite well be in a similar situation within 1 or decades and if there is another or bigger world recession it could arrive a whole lot sooner. Lots of people on this site would have had a ration book, lots here would not have been ''well off'' in the fifties early sixties, and if it does happen lots are going to have to buy a cap, because you may need to doff it if you want to keep your job under those circumstances.
Sydney I voted to join, I voted to stay in because I new we would fudge it and our leaders are poor. I was fuming at the time and have regretted not having a vote on the Maastricht Treaty, that is when we should have had everything put to us to decide the future.
Major and Cameron two idiots.
It's an important point about Maastricht. A referendum then would have been about the direction in which the train was travelling and we would have an opportunity to have a say about that. By 2016 it was a case of stay on the train or get off.
1 million sign a petition out of 14 that voted remain and 30 million in total, maybe as many people are not as worried as you would imagineNo matter what the evidence shows or what is un-covered/reported you never fail to disappoint bpool, 6 people walk into a bar in Harrogate, those that want brexit.
But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
You agree with the tax dodging Etonian millionaires who want to make US poorer. Your opinion isn't valid.
But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
You agree with the tax dodging Etonian millionaires who want to make US poorer. Your opinion isn't valid.
Why isn’t his opinion valid?
But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
You agree with the tax dodging Etonian millionaires who want to make US poorer. Your opinion isn't valid.
Why isn’t his opinion valid?
I feel like I already said why...
f**king hell the amount of times you've said "all politicians are the same" as if that validates what you're trying to argue in any way.you have nothing to say apart from to swear In every sentence you write, does it make you feel big?
f**king hell the amount of times you've said "all politicians are the same" as if that validates what you're trying to argue in any way.you have nothing to say apart from to swear In every sentence you write, does it make you feel big?
Are they not? Am I right that when you swear you feel like a big boy?
But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of courseBut it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.
in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of courseBut it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.
I agree with Sidney for once this petition is a good thing all it needs now is for another 17 million people to sign it, i.e. A dammed sight more than voted to leave!Thanks Sproty I knew you cared, I think it needs a bit of relevance to show the import of such a huge protest and petition, how many other protests and petitions have gained such support?
in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of courseBut it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.
Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.
1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.
Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.
Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.
in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of courseBut it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.
Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.
1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.
Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.
Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.
Here’s one. Currently, under EU law, the U.K. (and every other member state) is not allowed to carry out wholesale nationalisation of the Railways as it requires governments to open up the rail services to the markets. Leaving the EU will allow us (if Labour win the next election I’d guess) to carry out a renationalisation programme. Something we can’t do presently. In my opinion that’s a tangible advantage of leaving the EU.
in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of courseBut it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.
Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.
1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.
Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.
Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.
Here’s one. Currently, under EU law, the U.K. (and every other member state) is not allowed to carry out wholesale nationalisation of the Railways as it requires governments to open up the rail services to the markets. Leaving the EU will allow us (if Labour win the next election I’d guess) to carry out a renationalisation programme. Something we can’t do presently. In my opinion that’s a tangible advantage of leaving the EU.
The UK is the only EU country that doesn't have some form of state-owned passenger rail service company operating. Subsidiaries of the German and Dutch state rail companies actually operate franchises in the UK! And you think the EU won't let British government do it?
in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of courseBut it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?
The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.
Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.
1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.
Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.
Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.
Here’s one. Currently, under EU law, the U.K. (and every other member state) is not allowed to carry out wholesale nationalisation of the Railways as it requires governments to open up the rail services to the markets. Leaving the EU will allow us (if Labour win the next election I’d guess) to carry out a renationalisation programme. Something we can’t do presently. In my opinion that’s a tangible advantage of leaving the EU.
The UK is the only EU country that doesn't have some form of state-owned passenger rail service company operating. Subsidiaries of the German and Dutch state rail companies actually operate franchises in the UK! And you think the EU won't let British government do it?
So we could (govt' own) 99% of passenger rail if we wanted?
Herbert
That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.
It's wrong.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation
I wonder why they keep banging on about it?
Herbert
That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.
It's wrong.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation
I wonder why they keep banging on about it?
Billy
Under EU rules, the U.K. cannot fully nationalise the railways. It can part nationalise them, but not fully. The management of the infrastructure and the rail services have to be completely separate. This is why, in my original post I said that wholesale renationalisation of the railways is forbidden. Additionally, EU rules dictate that any rail route that has spare capacity or additional time slots for new services must be open to any rail operator to purchase.
These two rules mean that it’s impossible to create a unified and nationalised rail monopoly.
Interestingly, the EU has for sometime held up the UK’s private rail system as the perfect example of a nationwide private rail provision and has encouraged other member states to follow suit.
Also, I don’t believe anything that I read in the newspapers, whether it’s the Guardian or the Mail. They’ve all got their own agendas.
Herbert
That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.
It's wrong.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation
I wonder why they keep banging on about it?
Billy
Under EU rules, the U.K. cannot fully nationalise the railways. It can part nationalise them, but not fully. The management of the infrastructure and the rail services have to be completely separate. This is why, in my original post I said that wholesale renationalisation of the railways is forbidden. Additionally, EU rules dictate that any rail route that has spare capacity or additional time slots for new services must be open to any rail operator to purchase.
These two rules mean that it’s impossible to create a unified and nationalised rail monopoly.
Interestingly, the EU has for sometime held up the UK’s private rail system as the perfect example of a nationwide private rail provision and has encouraged other member states to follow suit.
Also, I don’t believe anything that I read in the newspapers, whether it’s the Guardian or the Mail. They’ve all got their own agendas.
Herbert
That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.
It's wrong.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation
I wonder why they keep banging on about it?
Billy
Under EU rules, the U.K. cannot fully nationalise the railways. It can part nationalise them, but not fully. The management of the infrastructure and the rail services have to be completely separate. This is why, in my original post I said that wholesale renationalisation of the railways is forbidden. Additionally, EU rules dictate that any rail route that has spare capacity or additional time slots for new services must be open to any rail operator to purchase.
These two rules mean that it’s impossible to create a unified and nationalised rail monopoly.
Interestingly, the EU has for sometime held up the UK’s private rail system as the perfect example of a nationwide private rail provision and has encouraged other member states to follow suit.
Also, I don’t believe anything that I read in the newspapers, whether it’s the Guardian or the Mail. They’ve all got their own agendas.
If you're talking about that survey they did way back in 2013 - which is all I can find - it was a measure of consumer satisfaction not of the business modelling, and it also predated the rail chaos we've had in Britain since.
Whatever it is you're referring to...doesn't the EU also have it's own agenda..but you believe them?
Herbert
That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.
It's wrong.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation
I wonder why they keep banging on about it?
Billy
Under EU rules, the U.K. cannot fully nationalise the railways. It can part nationalise them, but not fully. The management of the infrastructure and the rail services have to be completely separate. This is why, in my original post I said that wholesale renationalisation of the railways is forbidden. Additionally, EU rules dictate that any rail route that has spare capacity or additional time slots for new services must be open to any rail operator to purchase.
These two rules mean that it’s impossible to create a unified and nationalised rail monopoly.
Interestingly, the EU has for sometime held up the UK’s private rail system as the perfect example of a nationwide private rail provision and has encouraged other member states to follow suit.
Also, I don’t believe anything that I read in the newspapers, whether it’s the Guardian or the Mail. They’ve all got their own agendas.
Two words: Iarnród Éireann
Herbert
That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.
It's wrong.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation
I wonder why they keep banging on about it?
Billy
Under EU rules, the U.K. cannot fully nationalise the railways. It can part nationalise them, but not fully. The management of the infrastructure and the rail services have to be completely separate. This is why, in my original post I said that wholesale renationalisation of the railways is forbidden. Additionally, EU rules dictate that any rail route that has spare capacity or additional time slots for new services must be open to any rail operator to purchase.
These two rules mean that it’s impossible to create a unified and nationalised rail monopoly.
Interestingly, the EU has for sometime held up the UK’s private rail system as the perfect example of a nationwide private rail provision and has encouraged other member states to follow suit.
Also, I don’t believe anything that I read in the newspapers, whether it’s the Guardian or the Mail. They’ve all got their own agendas.
Two words: Iarnród Éireann
I hold my hands up and admit that I’m not 100% certain on this, but I believe that Ireland, along with a number other smaller EU member states, have been arguing that their rail networks are so small in comparison to larger nations, and consequently should be exempt from EU regulations.
So, my argument still stands; as EU members the U.K. cannot fully nationalise it’s railway.
Herbert
I'm happy to take your life e that EU membership precludes us from "fully" nationalising our rail network.
So, are you saying that because we cannot fully nationalise our rail network, we should get a half-setter on a big long steel chain and repeatedly smash ourselves in the rest-of-the-economy b*llocks with it?
Because that is precisely what leaving the SM and CU is going to feel like for the rest of the economy.
Herbert
I'm happy to take your life e that EU membership precludes us from "fully" nationalising our rail network.
So, are you saying that because we cannot fully nationalise our rail network, we should get a half-setter on a big long steel chain and repeatedly smash ourselves in the rest-of-the-economy b*llocks with it?
Because that is precisely what leaving the SM and CU is going to feel like for the rest of the economy.
Billy
The question that was asked was “what are the advantages of leaving the EU?” and I’ve shared one.
HA:
''However, there is a much wider point here. The Argument for or against membership has become so aggressive and polarised. Fundamentally we now have two groups of people with opposing views shouting and screaming at each other without actually listening to the arguments of the other side. Consequently we find ourselves in the George W Bush scenario of “you’re either with us or against us”. ''
All that is needed is two lists of verifiable facts and predictions from experts and those with cred about the pros and cons of staying or leaving. Leave out the personal reasons.
I put my money on the staying list being infinitely longer, the not having government owned trains argument has already been lost.
Herbert
I agree that the level of debate these days is frighteningly polarised.
I don't accept that the blame lies equally on both sides.
There has been a generation-long process on the Right to move away from evidence-based discussion towards where we are now, which is normalisation of outrageous lies.
Yes the other side is not perfect, but there is no equivalence here. There is no one on the Left who comes remotely close to Bannon, or Trump, or Orban, or Farage or The Mail for constant, vicious lying.
Herbert
You chose a spectacularly bad example there. I suggest you go back and look specifically at what Clegg said.
He wasn't calling CLAIMS that Juncker wanted an EU army "dangerous fantasies". He was calling Juncker's call for an EU army a dangerous fantasy.
That is a perfect example of the political zeitgeist. The original meaning gets deliberately turned round to mean the precise opposite. And people buy it. And that approach comes I overwhelmingly from the Right.
There was a perfect example in the US the other day. Nancy Pelosi was explainung how the Republican party works in partnership with right wing media to spread malicious false stories. Part of the video was taken deliberately out of context in a way that made it sound like she was explaining what SHE did to spread false stories. And it went viral with gullible people on social media being taken in and horrified that the Democrats could be so brazen.
And as I say, it comes overwhelmingly from the Right. I'm sick of this "both sides are as bad as each other" argument. They aren't.
Why? We're leaving get over itSo you don't care that our country's democracy was bought by a foreign agent on behalf of a foreign power because you get to thumb your nose at the other side. I thought it was the lefties that were supposed to hate Britain?
Why? We're leaving get over itSo you don't care that our country's democracy was bought by a foreign agent on behalf of a foreign power because you get to thumb your nose at the other side. I thought it was the lefties that were supposed to hate Britain?
Why? We're leaving get over it
I think Cameron and Osborne should be tried for treason, or should it be for idiocy.
Why? We're leaving get over itSo you don't care that our country's democracy was bought by a foreign agent on behalf of a foreign power because you get to thumb your nose at the other side. I thought it was the lefties that were supposed to hate Britain?
Quite amazing isn't it? These self-coloured patriots don't give a flying f**k about the evidence that a hostile power poured money into Leave.EU to get the specific result they wanted.
With patriots like this, who needs enemies?
f**k me..
Look what he's being referred for.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1057969796552314880
No evidence that the money he put into the Leave campaign was his. Allegations of criminal behaviour.
This has massive implications for the Brexit situation.
96 pages and counting, look back and see if any leavers actually want to discuss facts or just want to distract and ignore direct questions, I think as the stayers have been supported by most if no all experts and business leaders with examinations of the leave case its myths and distortions that the leavers can have first go.
Name a single credible reason for leaving that would advantage the majority (leave out your personal feelings/reasons puleeese)
When that has been achieved it's the stayers turn.
I'm afraid not HA as many have challenged this to say that being in the EU does not preclude the government owning railway assets, it depends on how its done.96 pages and counting, look back and see if any leavers actually want to discuss facts or just want to distract and ignore direct questions, I think as the stayers have been supported by most if no all experts and business leaders with examinations of the leave case its myths and distortions that the leavers can have first go.
Name a single credible reason for leaving that would advantage the majority (leave out your personal feelings/reasons puleeese)
When that has been achieved it's the stayers turn.
Sydney
I’ve already stated that one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will be able to nationalise the railways. Does this meet your criteria of “a single credible reason” for leaving?
BTW, I’m not claiming to be Remain or Brexit, however claiming that there’s no positives to leaving is simply wrong. Whether they outweigh the advantages of remaining Areca different matter.
Not completely Sure if your being sarcastic there . Are you ?f**k me..
Look what he's being referred for.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1057969796552314880
No evidence that the money he put into the Leave campaign was his. Allegations of criminal behaviour.
This has massive implications for the Brexit situation.
Strange. I'd have expected Corbyn to be all over this story. Given that he was in favour of us Remaining, and campaigned so vigorously for us to Remain, I'd have expected him to.be incandescent to learn that a prominent Leave funder is facing a criminal investigation over that funding.
But not a dickie bird from him. How odd.
Not completely Sure if your being sarcastic there . Are you ?f**k me..
Look what he's being referred for.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1057969796552314880
No evidence that the money he put into the Leave campaign was his. Allegations of criminal behaviour.
This has massive implications for the Brexit situation.
Strange. I'd have expected Corbyn to be all over this story. Given that he was in favour of us Remaining, and campaigned so vigorously for us to Remain, I'd have expected him to.be incandescent to learn that a prominent Leave funder is facing a criminal investigation over that funding.
But not a dickie bird from him. How odd.
I couldn't Sydney no but I'm sure someone could, but a petition means nothing really does it and all the marches they have had mean nothing either, nothing has changed unless I'm missing something
I couldn't Sydney no but I'm sure someone could, but a petition means nothing really does it and all the marches they have had mean nothing either, nothing has changed unless I'm missing something
As I said: ''the tide has turned''
Majority in all Labour seats back second referendum, study says
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/02/majority-in-all-labour-seats-back-second-referendum-study-says
What are the extent of his links with Russian diplomats and businessmen that only started when he became a prominent Leave supporter.
Does any Leave supporter look at this and have the slightest worry that they've been played?
TRB
It does actually. It shows what a malign influence Dacre was. A hateful man who has done much to poison public debate in this country.
But that's a useless negotiating strategy. Because no one believes that the Govt would go for No Deal.
If Parliament votes down the sham that's coming, the alternative isn't No Deal. The alternative is the end of May and probably a General Election.
But that's a useless negotiating strategy. Because no one believes that the Govt would go for No Deal.
If Parliament votes down the sham that's coming, the alternative isn't No Deal. The alternative is the end of May and probably a General Election.
I think they will emphasise the lack of time and the risk of No Deal by default. There was a school of thought that WW1 started because no-one could agree on an alternative. Ditto a No Deal Brexit.
But that's a useless negotiating strategy. Because no one believes that the Govt would go for No Deal.
If Parliament votes down the sham that's coming, the alternative isn't No Deal. The alternative is the end of May and probably a General Election.
I think they will emphasise the lack of time and the risk of No Deal by default. There was a school of thought that WW1 started because no-one could agree on an alternative. Ditto a No Deal Brexit.
But that's a useless negotiating strategy. Because no one believes that the Govt would go for No Deal.
If Parliament votes down the sham that's coming, the alternative isn't No Deal. The alternative is the end of May and probably a General Election.
I think they will emphasise the lack of time and the risk of No Deal by default. There was a school of thought that WW1 started because no-one could agree on an alternative. Ditto a No Deal Brexit.
But that's a useless negotiating strategy. Because no one believes that the Govt would go for No Deal.
If Parliament votes down the sham that's coming, the alternative isn't No Deal. The alternative is the end of May and probably a General Election.
I think they will emphasise the lack of time and the risk of No Deal by default. There was a school of thought that WW1 started because no-one could agree on an alternative. Ditto a No Deal Brexit.
That analogy doesn't work.
There is a clear majority in Parliament against a No Deal Brexit.
There is absolutely no reason why we should stumble into a No Deal outcome.
If it looked as though the Govt was taking us down that route (which itself would be beyond idiotic, since it would secure the historical position if Teresa May as THE most catastrophic PM ever) then there would be a vote of No Confidence in the Govt, which would pass easily.
May has been trying to pass of No Deal as an outcine that should be taken seriously, in an attempt to bolster her negotiating position. But it's stupid and it's inconceivable. It's the equivalent of saying "Give me what I demand or I'll...or I'll...or I'll blow my head off.
... and one of the Architects Cameron is eyeing a comeback as if he aint done enough damage
Let him suffer like the rest of us. After all he kept telling people that Sam Cam was from a working class Town (Scunthorpe) and apparantly has a "field" there somewhere
Yeah Normanby Park no less !
Our Brexit Secretary says he “hadn’t quite understood” the importance of cross-Channel trade to the UK economy.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-dominic-raab-trade-eu-france-calais-dover-economy-finance-deal-a8624036.html
And I though David Davis was bad :turd: You just couldn't make this up!
Our Brexit Secretary says he “hadn’t quite understood” the importance of cross-Channel trade to the UK economy.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-dominic-raab-trade-eu-france-calais-dover-economy-finance-deal-a8624036.html
And I though David Davis was bad :turd: You just couldn't make this up!
I think Cameron and Osborne should be tried for treason, or should it be for idiocy.
If you haven't already read it then 'All Out War', Tim Shipman's book on the referendum campaign is a great read and a good insight into what most of the major players were thinking about during the campaign.
Cameron had his own polling company the running during the campaign. When the national polls were showing a very tight race and reports from campaigners on the doorsteps came back saying there was a lot of support for leave, Cameron was never worried, or changed his campaign tactics, as his polling showed remain well ahead. He was even more confident on referendum night as his poll showed remain with an 11 point lead....
I'm afraid not HA as many have challenged this to say that being in the EU does not preclude the government owning railway assets, it depends on how its done.96 pages and counting, look back and see if any leavers actually want to discuss facts or just want to distract and ignore direct questions, I think as the stayers have been supported by most if no all experts and business leaders with examinations of the leave case its myths and distortions that the leavers can have first go.
Name a single credible reason for leaving that would advantage the majority (leave out your personal feelings/reasons puleeese)
When that has been achieved it's the stayers turn.
Sydney
I’ve already stated that one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will be able to nationalise the railways. Does this meet your criteria of “a single credible reason” for leaving?
BTW, I’m not claiming to be Remain or Brexit, however claiming that there’s no positives to leaving is simply wrong. Whether they outweigh the advantages of remaining Areca different matter.
The new EU regulations promote competition for the market between rail operators irrespective of ownership structure, but not privatisation. As far as renationalisation is concerned the reality is that, unless the rules are interpreted in an extreme way, they do not make it any easier or more difficult than the structure in place at the moment. The only thing that the new system will almost certainly rule out is state monopolies that do not have to compete with rivals to win franchises, renationalised or otherwise.
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-renationalise-railways-61180
Labour 'could nationalise railways in five years', John McDonnell claims
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nationalise-railways-labour-john-mcdonnell-renationalise-public-transport-a8549921.html
https://www.ft.com/content/90c0f8e8-17fd-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640
Herbert
That was the problem.
Remain didn't have a Jerusalem to sell. They WERE right that things WILL be bloody awful when we leave. By inference, that means that things would be significantly better if we stayed in. That was effectively the Remain pitch. Highlighting the very serious problems that WILL come from leaving.
Leave, on the other hand were free to promise golden sunlit uplands if we left, with everyone getting a pay rise and a free blowjob on demand. It was all utter b*llocks of course, but it's a much easier pitch to sell.
In a nutshell. Remain had a realistic (and correct) story of a pessimistic outcome if we changed the status quo. Leave had an unrealistic (and wrong) story of an optimistic outcome. Add to the mix that fact that you had shark oil salesmen like Farage and Johnson who have flexible relationships with truth and morals, and it was far easier for them to play to the crowd.
I'm afraid not HA as many have challenged this to say that being in the EU does not preclude the government owning railway assets, it depends on how its done.96 pages and counting, look back and see if any leavers actually want to discuss facts or just want to distract and ignore direct questions, I think as the stayers have been supported by most if no all experts and business leaders with examinations of the leave case its myths and distortions that the leavers can have first go.
Name a single credible reason for leaving that would advantage the majority (leave out your personal feelings/reasons puleeese)
When that has been achieved it's the stayers turn.
Sydney
I’ve already stated that one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will be able to nationalise the railways. Does this meet your criteria of “a single credible reason” for leaving?
BTW, I’m not claiming to be Remain or Brexit, however claiming that there’s no positives to leaving is simply wrong. Whether they outweigh the advantages of remaining Areca different matter.
The new EU regulations promote competition for the market between rail operators irrespective of ownership structure, but not privatisation. As far as renationalisation is concerned the reality is that, unless the rules are interpreted in an extreme way, they do not make it any easier or more difficult than the structure in place at the moment. The only thing that the new system will almost certainly rule out is state monopolies that do not have to compete with rivals to win franchises, renationalised or otherwise.
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-renationalise-railways-61180
Labour 'could nationalise railways in five years', John McDonnell claims
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nationalise-railways-labour-john-mcdonnell-renationalise-public-transport-a8549921.html
https://www.ft.com/content/90c0f8e8-17fd-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640
Sydney,
The UK Government, nor the Government of any member state, is able to pledge or guarantee a wholesale nationalisation of its railways. The delivery of railway services must go through a commercial tendering process which is open to all parties. Additionally, EU rules dictate that the same organisation cannot deliver the services to the Network, Trains Services and Infrastructure. As a consequence, it is impossible for the Government to renationalise the whole rail structure in the UK. It could nationalise part of it (if it won the contract) but not the whole. So, if there was a GE tomorrow and Corbyn became PM he couldn't renationalise the railways.
The comment that you've made regarding John Mcdonnel's comments are slightly misleading. Labour COULD renationlise the railways within a first term in Goverment because, when and if they do come into power we will have left (or be very close to) the EU!
So, my original comment that an advantage of leaving the EU is that we will be able to fully nationalise the railways still stands.
However, what I also find interesting about the EU stance on railway ownership is that the EU actually promote the UK railway ownership system as an example for other member countries to follow! Their original aim was for all railways within the Union to be managed under private ownership. It was only at the intervention of the Germans and, to a lesser extent the French, that this policy was watered down to allow the possibility of some public ownership. The EU seem to be fundamentaly opposed to any form of public ownership, which is why you'll rarely see the UK arguing about this. For anyone who uses the railways regularly in the UK this must be a baffling policy.
I'm afraid not HA as many have challenged this to say that being in the EU does not preclude the government owning railway assets, it depends on how its done.96 pages and counting, look back and see if any leavers actually want to discuss facts or just want to distract and ignore direct questions, I think as the stayers have been supported by most if no all experts and business leaders with examinations of the leave case its myths and distortions that the leavers can have first go.
Name a single credible reason for leaving that would advantage the majority (leave out your personal feelings/reasons puleeese)
When that has been achieved it's the stayers turn.
Sydney
I’ve already stated that one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will be able to nationalise the railways. Does this meet your criteria of “a single credible reason” for leaving?
BTW, I’m not claiming to be Remain or Brexit, however claiming that there’s no positives to leaving is simply wrong. Whether they outweigh the advantages of remaining Areca different matter.
The new EU regulations promote competition for the market between rail operators irrespective of ownership structure, but not privatisation. As far as renationalisation is concerned the reality is that, unless the rules are interpreted in an extreme way, they do not make it any easier or more difficult than the structure in place at the moment. The only thing that the new system will almost certainly rule out is state monopolies that do not have to compete with rivals to win franchises, renationalised or otherwise.
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-renationalise-railways-61180
Labour 'could nationalise railways in five years', John McDonnell claims
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nationalise-railways-labour-john-mcdonnell-renationalise-public-transport-a8549921.html
https://www.ft.com/content/90c0f8e8-17fd-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640
Sydney,
The UK Government, nor the Government of any member state, is able to pledge or guarantee a wholesale nationalisation of its railways. The delivery of railway services must go through a commercial tendering process which is open to all parties. Additionally, EU rules dictate that the same organisation cannot deliver the services to the Network, Trains Services and Infrastructure. As a consequence, it is impossible for the Government to renationalise the whole rail structure in the UK. It could nationalise part of it (if it won the contract) but not the whole. So, if there was a GE tomorrow and Corbyn became PM he couldn't renationalise the railways.
The comment that you've made regarding John Mcdonnel's comments are slightly misleading. Labour COULD renationlise the railways within a first term in Goverment because, when and if they do come into power we will have left (or be very close to) the EU!
So, my original comment that an advantage of leaving the EU is that we will be able to fully nationalise the railways still stands.
However, what I also find interesting about the EU stance on railway ownership is that the EU actually promote the UK railway ownership system as an example for other member countries to follow! Their original aim was for all railways within the Union to be managed under private ownership. It was only at the intervention of the Germans and, to a lesser extent the French, that this policy was watered down to allow the possibility of some public ownership. The EU seem to be fundamentaly opposed to any form of public ownership, which is why you'll rarely see the UK arguing about this. For anyone who uses the railways regularly in the UK this must be a baffling policy.
''Germany. The earliest railways in the German states were often run by private entrepreneurs. ... After German reunification, DB and DR became Deutsche Bahn AG in 1994. Whilst DB AG is a public limited company, all its shares are presently owned by the government of the Federal Republic of Germany''
Where there's a will?
I'm afraid not HA as many have challenged this to say that being in the EU does not preclude the government owning railway assets, it depends on how its done.96 pages and counting, look back and see if any leavers actually want to discuss facts or just want to distract and ignore direct questions, I think as the stayers have been supported by most if no all experts and business leaders with examinations of the leave case its myths and distortions that the leavers can have first go.
Name a single credible reason for leaving that would advantage the majority (leave out your personal feelings/reasons puleeese)
When that has been achieved it's the stayers turn.
Sydney
I’ve already stated that one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will be able to nationalise the railways. Does this meet your criteria of “a single credible reason” for leaving?
BTW, I’m not claiming to be Remain or Brexit, however claiming that there’s no positives to leaving is simply wrong. Whether they outweigh the advantages of remaining Areca different matter.
The new EU regulations promote competition for the market between rail operators irrespective of ownership structure, but not privatisation. As far as renationalisation is concerned the reality is that, unless the rules are interpreted in an extreme way, they do not make it any easier or more difficult than the structure in place at the moment. The only thing that the new system will almost certainly rule out is state monopolies that do not have to compete with rivals to win franchises, renationalised or otherwise.
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-renationalise-railways-61180
Labour 'could nationalise railways in five years', John McDonnell claims
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nationalise-railways-labour-john-mcdonnell-renationalise-public-transport-a8549921.html
https://www.ft.com/content/90c0f8e8-17fd-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640
Sydney,
The UK Government, nor the Government of any member state, is able to pledge or guarantee a wholesale nationalisation of its railways. The delivery of railway services must go through a commercial tendering process which is open to all parties. Additionally, EU rules dictate that the same organisation cannot deliver the services to the Network, Trains Services and Infrastructure. As a consequence, it is impossible for the Government to renationalise the whole rail structure in the UK. It could nationalise part of it (if it won the contract) but not the whole. So, if there was a GE tomorrow and Corbyn became PM he couldn't renationalise the railways.
The comment that you've made regarding John Mcdonnel's comments are slightly misleading. Labour COULD renationlise the railways within a first term in Goverment because, when and if they do come into power we will have left (or be very close to) the EU!
So, my original comment that an advantage of leaving the EU is that we will be able to fully nationalise the railways still stands.
However, what I also find interesting about the EU stance on railway ownership is that the EU actually promote the UK railway ownership system as an example for other member countries to follow! Their original aim was for all railways within the Union to be managed under private ownership. It was only at the intervention of the Germans and, to a lesser extent the French, that this policy was watered down to allow the possibility of some public ownership. The EU seem to be fundamentaly opposed to any form of public ownership, which is why you'll rarely see the UK arguing about this. For anyone who uses the railways regularly in the UK this must be a baffling policy.
''Germany. The earliest railways in the German states were often run by private entrepreneurs. ... After German reunification, DB and DR became Deutsche Bahn AG in 1994. Whilst DB AG is a public limited company, all its shares are presently owned by the government of the Federal Republic of Germany''
Where there's a will?
Sydney,
The services of the railways in Germany are owned by the state Government, however rail contracts for local and regional rail services have to be awarded through competitive tendering on the open market meaning the private sector often provide these franchises. The trains and drivers are owned by the private sector organisation.
This is hardly a nationalised, publicly owned railway.
Coming up to 100 Pages and still as divisive as ever with opinions entrenched on both sidesIn the world outside opinions are changing and a second vote appears to be on the cards and I would suggest more likely than not.
2 and a bit years of every news item mentioning B****t in some form or another and no doubt years more of still mentioning it if it goes wrong ! I can hear it all now
Roll on some kind of closure / an end to the chaos - whichever way it takes us. Just wish I could see how history judges the whole thing in 20 years or sos time !
Again it will be either an inspired move if it goes well or a total b***s up if it goes wrong.
Meanwhile in the ongoing clusterf**k.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790
"We're working flat out," says the PM, "to finalise a deal that has got f**k all chance of getting through Parliament."
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.Nope. It was a manifesto promise. He got elected, and delivered on the promise.
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.
So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?
Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.
So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?
Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?
Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
Do you still book it? After all, the majority have spoken.
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit. What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things. It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.Nope. It was a manifesto promise. He got elected, and delivered on the promise.
The fact that the result wasn't what he wanted is another matter.
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.
So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?
Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?
Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
Do you still book it? After all, the majority have spoken.
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit. What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things. It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.
NNK,
I understand your point but your example is nothing like the reality of Brexit.
Attitudes to Brexit are stubbornly divided and while there may be a shift towards a slight majority believing that the decision to leave is wrong, it's doubtful that a second vote would provide a significant majority either way. Just imagine if there is a second vote and the anger that this would generate amongst leave voters, it's impossible to see how this could lead to calm and rationale debate! So, how would any new referendum be different from the first? All we'll get, yet again, is competing claims about competing futures.
If there were a second referendum, and the Remain camp won, do you think that everything would settle down to how it was pre June 2016? Absolutely not. It would solve none of the underlying issues that led to the Brexit vote. All of the argument regarding Brexit that is currently being expressed by Remain would be repeated by the Brexit voters. There's no way that they will disappear and accept it. UKIP (or any other anti EU party if they cant sort themselves out) would likley make huge gains in the 2019 European parliment elections, the Tories would be more divided than ever and Brexiters would continue to believe that the dire warnings should we leave the EU were completely fictitous. And thats before we even get into the debate of how it would affect our perception of UK democracy and also our standing within the EU and teh world at large.
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.
So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?
Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?
Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
Do you still book it? After all, the majority have spoken.
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit. What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things. It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.
NNK,
I understand your point but your example is nothing like the reality of Brexit.
Attitudes to Brexit are stubbornly divided and while there may be a shift towards a slight majority believing that the decision to leave is wrong, it's doubtful that a second vote would provide a significant majority either way. Just imagine if there is a second vote and the anger that this would generate amongst leave voters, it's impossible to see how this could lead to calm and rationale debate! So, how would any new referendum be different from the first? All we'll get, yet again, is competing claims about competing futures.
If there were a second referendum, and the Remain camp won, do you think that everything would settle down to how it was pre June 2016? Absolutely not. It would solve none of the underlying issues that led to the Brexit vote. All of the argument regarding Brexit that is currently being expressed by Remain would be repeated by the Brexit voters. There's no way that they will disappear and accept it. UKIP (or any other anti EU party if they cant sort themselves out) would likley make huge gains in the 2019 European parliment elections, the Tories would be more divided than ever and Brexiters would continue to believe that the dire warnings should we leave the EU were completely fictitous. And thats before we even get into the debate of how it would affect our perception of UK democracy and also our standing within the EU and teh world at large.
That's all very well, but the promises and propaganda of the Leave campaign were nothing like the reality of Brexit either.
We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.
So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?
Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?
Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
Do you still book it? After all, the majority have spoken.
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit. What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things. It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.
NNK,
I understand your point but your example is nothing like the reality of Brexit.
Attitudes to Brexit are stubbornly divided and while there may be a shift towards a slight majority believing that the decision to leave is wrong, it's doubtful that a second vote would provide a significant majority either way. Just imagine if there is a second vote and the anger that this would generate amongst leave voters, it's impossible to see how this could lead to calm and rationale debate! So, how would any new referendum be different from the first? All we'll get, yet again, is competing claims about competing futures.
If there were a second referendum, and the Remain camp won, do you think that everything would settle down to how it was pre June 2016? Absolutely not. It would solve none of the underlying issues that led to the Brexit vote. All of the argument regarding Brexit that is currently being expressed by Remain would be repeated by the Brexit voters. There's no way that they will disappear and accept it. UKIP (or any other anti EU party if they cant sort themselves out) would likley make huge gains in the 2019 European parliment elections, the Tories would be more divided than ever and Brexiters would continue to believe that the dire warnings should we leave the EU were completely fictitous. And thats before we even get into the debate of how it would affect our perception of UK democracy and also our standing within the EU and teh world at large.
That's all very well, but the promises and propaganda of the Leave campaign were nothing like the reality of Brexit either.
Glynn,
A second referendum will resolve none of the country’s issues. All it will achieve is alternating which 50% of the country is pissed off with the result.
Also, both sides were guilty of utilising post Brexit forecasting to meet their own agendas (and I’m being charitable with my wording). Neither side is in a position to take the morale high ground.
Herbert
Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.
One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.
The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.
Herbert
Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.
One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.
The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.
Billy,
Frankly, I’m sick of hearing the ‘our Lies weren’t as bad as your lies’ argument.
Yes, the leave campaign lied, no doubt about it. But remain also openly lied. Remember being told that leaving the EU will facilitate the end of Western Civilisation? No Lead to war? No Deliver a year long recession? No As for foreign intervention, do you remember Obama telling us that Armageddon awaited us if we left? No Do you think that he did it off his own back? How about the continual intimation that anyone who voted leave was a hate filled xenophobic meat head? Lies or just mistakes?
Politicians lie, make false promises. It’s a fact and has gone on since the beginning of democracy and the EU referendum was no different.
Herbert
Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.
One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.
The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.
Billy,
Frankly, I’m sick of hearing the ‘our Lies weren’t as bad as your lies’ argument.
Yes, the leave campaign lied, no doubt about it. But remain also openly lied. Remember being told that leaving the EU will facilitate the end of Western Civilisation? Lead to war? Deliver a year long recession? As for foreign intervention, do you remember Obama telling us that Armageddon awaited us if we left? Do you think that he did it off his own back? How about the continual intimation that anyone who voted leave was a hate filled xenophobic meat head? Lies or just mistakes?
Politicians lie, make false promises. It’s a fact and has gone on since the beginning of democracy and the EU referendum was no different.
Herbert
Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.
One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.
The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.
Billy,
Frankly, I’m sick of hearing the ‘our Lies weren’t as bad as your lies’ argument.
Yes, the leave campaign lied, no doubt about it. But remain also openly lied. Remember being told that leaving the EU will facilitate the end of Western Civilisation? Lead to war? Deliver a year long recession? As for foreign intervention, do you remember Obama telling us that Armageddon awaited us if we left? Do you think that he did it off his own back? How about the continual intimation that anyone who voted leave was a hate filled xenophobic meat head? Lies or just mistakes?
Politicians lie, make false promises. It’s a fact and has gone on since the beginning of democracy and the EU referendum was no different.
Herbert
Tell you what. Find me examples of where the Remain campaign actually said each of those things, rather than Leave supporters painting their words that way, and I'll agree with you.
Herbert
So Cameron wasn't predicting war. He was highlighting the fact that the EU has been instrumental in ensuring European peace. And history shows that European peace is not a given.
Tusk was being rather overblown, but there is a context. It's been clear for years that it is Russian policy to weaken the EU and spread discord between European countries.
Regarding the economy, we effectively HAVE had a 2 year recession. Our GDP growth rate has dropped something like 2% compared to other leading countries since 2016. The reason this hasn't resulted in an out and out recession us that the rest of the world has had a mini boom while we've been unique in having a slump, so we've been isolated from the worst. Predictions of severe economic consequences after the Brexit vote weren't lies. They have been broadly correct.
Out of interest bst would you be happy with a decent brexit deal or would you rather the shit hit the fan and there was a labour goverment next?
So the EU did have all control over us after all!Or these are the regulations agreed to by the 28 countries in the EU, I personally have no problems with regulations that protect workers rights.
Ah, so "All control" just applies to workers rights. I see.Interpret it as you wish BB, you usually do.
Correct me if I'm interpreting it wrong then.monty python did a good sketch on how to buy an argument.
So the EU did have all control over us after all!
I didn't know you had to pay for an argument, and seeing as I haven't bought one, why are you arguing?Correct me if I'm interpreting it wrong then.monty python did a good sketch on how to buy an argument.
From what I’ve heard this morning here’s my guess on what will happen.Never gonna be a 2nd refferendum.
The deal that May comes back with will please neither side because both sides want a ‘perfect’ Brexit based on their own ideals. Consequently it won’t get voted through parliament which will push us towards a no deal. This will put May under huge pressure to either call a second referendum or a general election. She won’t call a GE because she knows she’ll lose to Labour. As a result a second referendum is the least bad choice for her. We’ll have a second referendum and remain will win by a whisker. Then Christ knows what will happen...
If we have a second referendum I will change my vote to remain, because that is what appears to be happening now, but without us having a say. We may as well remain and have a say
The big problem with a 2nd vote is it's easy for the leavers to state it should be boycotted, thus making a second vote unworkable - that scenario would not surprise me.
A clever Tory politician if playing politics would have put Labour in - they would be just as, if not even more divided than the Tories. No party can win, it is that much of a change.
The devil is in the detail with the agreement, as yet, we don't know what it is.
If we have a second referendum I will change my vote to remain, because that is what appears to be happening now, but without us having a say. We may as well remain and have a say
If we have a second referendum I will change my vote to remain, because that is what appears to be happening now, but without us having a say. We may as well remain and have a say
I’m the same as you Filo. I still believe that we’re better off outside the EU, however our current government is incapable of delivering a positive Brexit AND the EU seem determined to make an example of us, so on that basis I’d vote remain.
If we have a second referendum I will change my vote to remain, because that is what appears to be happening now, but without us having a say. We may as well remain and have a say
I’m the same as you Filo. I still believe that we’re better off outside the EU, however our current government is incapable of delivering a positive Brexit AND the EU seem determined to make an example of us, so on that basis I’d vote remain.
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Everyone that I know who voted to leave have told me that they would vote remain if there is a second referendum.
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.
Wilts
That's all correct.
Of course, that would leave us less well off and without a say in either the SM or CU. So it's a considerably worse situation than the status quo. But yes, much better than the May deal or no deal.
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.
Fair point
The more I’m seeing and reading about this the more I think we should go back to the EU and say “Even though the majority of us wanted leave and many of us don’t like you very much, we can’t get our house in order never mind prise ourselves away from you, so here’s this years £13 Billion, can we come back in please?”I'm not sure that most of us don't like Europeans. There are lots of Brits that I dislike more than our EU cousins.
GlynApparently, both are happening... Cabinet agrees to the deal and JRM and his ERG move to remove her, rumoured.
My bet. It will not reach that far.
Either the Cabinet refuses to agree to the deal tonight, or the Brexit wing of the Tory party launches a no-confidence move against May.
The more I’m seeing and reading about this the more I think we should go back to the EU and say “Even though the majority of us wanted leave and many of us don’t like you very much, we can’t get our house in order never mind prise ourselves away from you, so here’s this years £13 Billion, can we come back in please?”I'm not sure that most of us don't like Europeans. There are lots of Brits that I dislike more than our EU cousins.
Hope it ends as no Brexit then.It wont. The government have a duty to uphold a democratic vote.
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.
Fair point
Rumours have it that's what may has agreed. Assume labour will vote for it then?
It's the big mess we all expected. Are many of these Tories etc disagreeing with the position or lions sensing a prey? Some of them are a joke frankly.
No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.
And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.
No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.
The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.
You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.
You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.
To hear of people who voted to leave the EU, and ideally still want to, so resigned to the fact that real change is not possible in Britain and would now vote differently (or not at all), I think, paints a quite depressing picture of where British politics is at. And this is not in any way a criticism of people who have come to hold that view.
So if there's any lesson to be learnt from the past two years it's that even on the rare occasion that you are presented with and vote for significant change, voting is ultimately pointless if the political class does not already support it. This increasingly out-of-touch, estranged political class are simply unwilling (or incapable) to deliver and will conspire to change as little as they can get away with. Those who already thought that voting was pointless and that politicians don't represent them yet turned out to vote for Brexit in the hope of being heard for once have ultimately been proven right.
This ought to concern everyone who isn't a cynical opportunist, regardless of Brexit stance.
During the last general election both parties committed to leaving the single market and customs union as they couldn't get away with anything less. It didn't take them long to ditch those commitments.
It seems like the current political system is not fit for purpose anymore. Absolute shite the lot of them.
The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.
You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.
The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.
They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is.
Simple .
And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.
If it's no deal, or no brexit.
It will be no deal . simple.
And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.
If it's no deal, or no brexit.
It will be no deal . simple.
That would be a thoroughly democratic outcome. Go for a solution that only about 1/4 of the population supports.
Will of the People, eh?
The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.
You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.
The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.
They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is.
Simple .
The government have no commitment to carry out anything based on an advisory referendum.
Arguably, they should, but they have no commitment, no obligation, to do so. Parliament can act of its own accord if it so wishes. Isn't it Parliamentary sovereignty that the Brexiteers were so keen on getting back? :)
The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.
You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.
The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.
They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is.
Simple .
The government have no commitment to carry out anything based on an advisory referendum.
Arguably, they should, but they have no commitment, no obligation, to do so. Parliament can act of its own accord if it so wishes. Isn't it Parliamentary sovereignty that the Brexiteers were so keen on getting back? :)
I feel that referendums should be used in an advisory context only. However, in the Goverments leaflet sent to all households prior to the vote, the following text was included:
“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”
Seems quite clear to me. No mention of an advisory referendum.
No, you're not being pedantic Red. The Govt had no authority to make such an undertaking. That is not how Parliament works. Parliament has absolute sovereignty and can make whatever decision it likes. And, critically, no Parliament is beholden to uphold ANYTHING that a previous Parliament has decided.The people gave the government authority to carry it out. As per the the manifesto promise, and the promise in the referendum literature.
Anyone saying that Parliament has a duty or an obligation to do anything simply doesn't understand how our Govt works.
No, you're not being pedantic Red. The Govt had no authority to make such an undertaking. That is not how Parliament works. Parliament has absolute sovereignty and can make whatever decision it likes. And, critically, no Parliament is beholden to uphold ANYTHING that a previous Parliament has decided.
Anyone saying that Parliament has a duty or an obligation to do anything simply doesn't understand how our Govt works.
[/quote
Have you ever thought just why the referendum wasn’t promoted as advisory until after the vote? Could it be that the result wasn’t what the Government wanted?
I was thinking earlier today, after a few posts that seemed based on the idea that there is "an EU" and "a UK" and that the former is hell bent on controlling the latter.
I was wondering where that bizarre idea comes from.
This might help explain it.
https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
HA
I couldn't possibly claim to know why Cameron's Govt did anything it did.
But that's irrelevant.
The FACT is that we are not a plebiscitary democracy, we are a Parliamentary democracy.
Parliament (not Government) can CHOOSE to be bound by a referendum. Or it can choose to ignore it. And because one Parliament chooses either way, that doesn't bind any later Parliament to stick to that.
It's how we do things.
That's an odd conclusion to come to BS.No, not your understanding. Just what you moan about .
Do you think my understanding of how British government works changes with the situation?
WTF...Raab's resigned over the deal he's supposed to have negotiated!
See my post from earlier this week. A second referendum is even more likely now and that’s going to create even bigger problems. Remainers really do need to be careful what they wish for...A 2nd refferendum would be worse than a no deal.
I think you need to re-read what we've been discussing.Ok then, what you choose to discuss
I wasn't moaning about anything. Just correcting a misunderstanding.
GazIn your opinion
Cameron thought a lot of things that didn't care well when faced with reality.
That's why he's in the too 3 worst PMs we've had at least since the 1920s.
Hound
Are you asking us to have sympathy for the Tory Govt that tipped us into this clusterf**k?
And what things have cropped up that were never thought of?
The core problem that has led to this meltdown in the Tory party is Ireland. I've been saying that was insoluble since before the vote.
Yeah.Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?
Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.
Yeah.Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?
Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.
Well, if you judge PMs by their judgement and on the effect they have on our appearance to the rest of the world, you're going to struggle to find 3 worse ones than Eden, Cameron and May.
And that's before you go into the unmitigated disaster that was Austerity.
Cameron demonstrated that he didn't understand basic undergraduate-level economics.
He was unable to keep the lid on the civil war that has engulfed the Tory party for the past 2 generations.
And in a bid to stop that war, he had the most monumentally wrong headed domestic decision of any PM I can think of. (And I'm not saying that because the side I supported lost. I'm saying that because the side HE supported lost. His decision to hold a referendum led directly to the end of his tenure.)
No we haven't ..... ?Yeah.Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?
Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.
Erm, we've already had 3 Boomstick, please keep up.
Well, if you judge PMs by their judgement and on the effect they have on our appearance to the rest of the world, you're going to struggle to find 3 worse ones than Eden, Cameron and May.
And that's before you go into the unmitigated disaster that was Austerity.
Cameron demonstrated that he didn't understand basic undergraduate-level economics.
He was unable to keep the lid on the civil war that has engulfed the Tory party for the past 2 generations.
And in a bid to stop that war, he had the most monumentally wrong headed domestic decision of any PM I can think of. (And I'm not saying that because the side I supported lost. I'm saying that because the side HE supported lost. His decision to hold a referendum led directly to the end of his tenure.)
BST, Is that a response to my last post, also addressed to you?
No we haven't ..... ?Yeah.Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?
Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.
Erm, we've already had 3 Boomstick, please keep up.
And another one resigns!!
And another one resigns!!
ayep. Now Esther McVey. There's not going to be many left at this rate!
And another one resigns!!
ayep. Now Esther McVey. There's not going to be many left at this rate!
Perhaps your too old to realise they have no bearing on the current one.No we haven't ..... ?Yeah.Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?
Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.
Erm, we've already had 3 Boomstick, please keep up.
I'm afraid we have BS. Maybe you're too young to remember the first two?
BSRight, I have some sympathy for your point of view.
There's a thing about the 2016 referendum that you don't ever seen to have picked up on, despite it being discussed in here ad nauseum.
I don't mean the lies from the Leave side, the criminal use of social media profiling and the funding from the Kremlin. As a patriot and a democrat, you don't seem concerned about those so there's no point raising them again.
The point is, it was a binary decision on something that wasn't a binary choice.
The choice was Remain or Leave.
But there was never one "thing" called "Leave". There were infinite shades from No Deal to Brexit in Name Only.
And there's the problem.
There is no majority in the country for any particular type of Brexit. So ant Brexit that we DO get will be opposed by a majority of the population.
Now that we know this Govt is unable to get any deal with the EU that it can support, we have three choices.
1) The Govt resigns and is replaced by a Labour Govt that CAN arrange a deal. But that deal won't satisfy Hard Brexiters or Remainers.
2) The Govt grits it's teeth and leads us into a No Deal Brexit. But that won't satisfy Remainers and Soft Brexiters.
3) We have anitger referendum with a genuine binary decision. No Deal Vs Remain.
Which one of those don't you think is morally the most correct path?
So you think an outcome that only about 1/4 of the population supports, and which was never discussed as a serious option in the 2016 campaign would be the most democratic outcome BS?I staunchly believe anyone who voted leave, knew a hard brexit was a possibility, and I dare say many actually would prefer this.
This is naughty, but understandable.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MichelBarnier/status/1063008449808740352
Interpretation.
"Britain. We've reached a deal. We're approaching these negotiations in a professional and organised way. We're ready to move onto the next stage.
"Britain? Hello? HELLLLOOO!"
Do you think she'll need some help with her Universal Credit application?And another one resigns!!
ayep. Now Esther McVey. There's not going to be many left at this rate!
Horrible woman good riddence
And another one resigns!!
ayep. Now Esther McVey. There's not going to be many left at this rate!
Do you think she'll need some help with her Universal Credit application?And another one resigns!!
ayep. Now Esther McVey. There's not going to be many left at this rate!
Horrible woman good riddence
A General Election must surely be on the horizon nowWhat would that achieve ?
A General Election must surely be on the horizon nowWhat would that achieve ?
A General Election must surely be on the horizon nowWhat would that achieve ?
Probably a change of Government
We have bumbled into this without any comprehension of what we wanted from it, still less how to achieve that.
Apologies. I obviously misunderstood your 10:35 and 10:46 posts.You mis-intetpreted them to suit you agenda.
What DO you think would be the desirable outcome then?
Apologies. I obviously misunderstood your 10:35 and 10:46 posts.You mis-intetpreted them to suit you agenda.
What DO you think would be the desirable outcome then?
To answer your question.
Re-negotiation.
HA
Yep. Organised, principled, consistent. That's the way they've approached the negotiation.
Whereas we have been a clusterf**k of shambolic amateurs.
No BS. I didn't. It was a simple and honest mistake. Why on earth would I try to twist your words to suit some agenda? That would be very silly, because you could point out the correct situation and I'd be left looking stupid.Fair enough,
Anyway. Re-negotiate WHAT?
Re-negotiation is a means to an end, not an end in itself?
What outcome would you want to see?
I'll make it simpler, because that is a very wide question.
Would you be prepared to accept us remaining tied into the structure of the Customs Union, and therefore unable to make independent trade deals with other countries?
Do you think she'll need some help with her Universal Credit application?And another one resigns!!
ayep. Now Esther McVey. There's not going to be many left at this rate!
Horrible woman good riddence
I hope she can explain what she’s being doing to find work since 10am 😀😀
What criticisms are you referring to?
Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.
Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.
Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.
Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?
Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.
Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?
HA
Well yes. Two deeply euro-sceptic politicians, one of them a senior member of a quasi-fascist party criticise the EU. Not a massive surprise.
BSNope, I want a good deal. But if the EU are being too awkward, then we should walk away with no deal.
Its strange to call facing up to facts "a trap", but I'm guessing you've seen your problem.
If you don't accept that, then by definition you've just said you want No Deal.
Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.
Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?
Here's a revolutionary idea for you; BUY BRITISH! It worked for years and funnily enough we all had jobs...
Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.
Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?
Here's a revolutionary idea for you; BUY BRITISH! It worked for years and funnily enough we all had jobs...
Do we produce enough in the UK to only buy British?
That is some way from providing evidence that the EU negotiators haven't been professional, consistent and principled though.
They set three red lines at the start. They have stuck to them.
HA
Flip it round. If Boris Johnson and Michael Gove asserted something, would you said that settled the argument?
[/quote
So your stance is that you’ll only accept the views of politicians that you agree with?
BSNo, a half/semi/soft brexit would be the least democratic. NOBODY voted for that.
Yes. We all want a good deal.
The problem is that if you leave the CU, you've screwed up the Irish border. And the EU has said consistently that that is a red line and they won't give us preferential terms if that line is crossed.
So, your position is illogical. You can't leave the CU (or something close to it) and get a good deal.
That's fine. You, personally, choose a No Deal outcome (we got there eventually). That's your prerogative. But that is not what was offered in 2016. And it's an outcome supported by a small minority of the UK.
So, as I said, it would be THE most undemocratic outcome.
So if we have a second referendum, and the result is remain. Can us brexiteers demand a 3rd referendum and call it best of 3.
Ridiculous.
You can't just demand another vote, and keep doing so until the result you want is achieved.
The people voted leave, were leaving hopefully with a good deal.
It amazes me how upset Leave seem to get over the thought of a second vote though considering it's still supposedly the will of the people. Surely that means they'll piss it, nowt to fuss about, eh?
Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.
Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?
Here's a revolutionary idea for you; BUY BRITISH! It worked for years and funnily enough we all had jobs...
Do we produce enough in the UK to only buy British?
Well if we don't it presents a great opportunity for new businesses going forwards.
No.So what do you want to happen?
I don't know how many times I have to spell this out.
The whole point is that when the slim majority voted for Leave in 2016, it was entirely unclear what "Leave" meant. As I've just said, NO-ONE on the Leave side was saying that Leave meant No Deal Leave. And when some on the Remain side pointed out the possibility of that, they were (and still are by some people) decried as Project Fear-mongers.
The entire point (as has been pointed out several times on this thread) is that it is stupid and nonsensical to have a binary vote (Remain or Leave) on an issue that is not a binary choice (Remain vs many, many different types of Leave, with people being assured that No Deal Leave is not a realistic choice).
If you have a binary vote on a binary question (Remain vs No Deal Leave...or Remain vs This Specific Deal Leave) then there is far more validity to the choice made by a referendum. So, if we had a second vote on those terms, that would end the discussion for me, once and for all.
By the way, you are a perfect example of the uncertainty on what Leave meant in 2016. You want us out from having to implement EU decisions. But in 2016, Norway and Switzerland were being presented by Leave as shining examples of what we can do outside the EU. And both of those are tied in to various parts of EU regulations.
That may not get through parliament, then it's renegotiate or no dealSo if we have a second referendum, and the result is remain. Can us brexiteers demand a 3rd referendum and call it best of 3.
Ridiculous.
You can't just demand another vote, and keep doing so until the result you want is achieved.
The people voted leave, were leaving hopefully with a good deal.
Like the one May has got for you x
That may not get through parliament, then it's renegotiate or no dealSo if we have a second referendum, and the result is remain. Can us brexiteers demand a 3rd referendum and call it best of 3.
Ridiculous.
You can't just demand another vote, and keep doing so until the result you want is achieved.
The people voted leave, were leaving hopefully with a good deal.
Like the one May has got for you x
They won't cancel article 50, simply will not happen. Nor will a second referendum, because that will be admitting they ballsed it up.That may not get through parliament, then it's renegotiate or no dealSo if we have a second referendum, and the result is remain. Can us brexiteers demand a 3rd referendum and call it best of 3.
Ridiculous.
You can't just demand another vote, and keep doing so until the result you want is achieved.
The people voted leave, were leaving hopefully with a good deal.
Like the one May has got for you x
Why should the EU renegotiate? The agreement has been made.
This Parliament will not let the UK crash out with no deal, they'll either vote for a second referendum or cancel Article 50.
It amazes me how upset Leave seem to get over the thought of a second vote though considering it's still supposedly the will of the people. Surely that means they'll piss it, nowt to fuss about, eh?
I say again, how many bloody votes? Do we just vote on everything?
HA.
I think we're arguing at cross-purposes here.
I said that the EU neogiators had been principled, consistent and professional.
They have.
They had a negotiating position agreed by all the other 27 countries. They have negotiated very consistently from that position.
What you are doing is providing two examples of strongly Euro-sceptic politicians who disagree with that position. That is their prerogative, but it is an entirely different argument.
I did also hint that the EU negotiators have some justification in having a little dig at us, when they have been negotiating for two years, had two of their opposite numbers resign, and find out today that the man they've been negotiating with for the past 4 months doesn't agree with the deal he negotiated.
The best thing that could happen is for the government to appoint one or two of our vsc posters to sort out the Brexit problems.
Obviously they know what is required better than any of our MPs’ and have all the answers.
Herbert
No. I'm not having that. You haven't provided anything to contradict what I said.
The EU-27 agreed a negotiating position on the three major issues.
Ireland
Budget
Rights of EU citizens in Britain
They told us at the start that those were red lines and without agreement on those issues, there could be no deal for us to ease the pain of Brexit. That has been very consistently adhered to by the professional, consistent and principled negotiators. There have been no major changes in what the EU told us at the start were red lines, and no other red lines introduced.
We, on the other hand, have been ducking and diving and changing our line on a regular basis.
What you were doing was giving examples of a couple of politicians who disagreed with the EU's negotiating position, not providing evidence that they had used it in an unprincipled, unprofessional or inconsistent way.
Sorry to be a fly in your ointment HA but Britain/Cameron is completely responsible for all of it.Herbert
No. I'm not having that. You haven't provided anything to contradict what I said.
The EU-27 agreed a negotiating position on the three major issues.
Ireland
Budget
Rights of EU citizens in Britain
They told us at the start that those were red lines and without agreement on those issues, there could be no deal for us to ease the pain of Brexit. That has been very consistently adhered to by the professional, consistent and principled negotiators. There have been no major changes in what the EU told us at the start were red lines, and no other red lines introduced.
We, on the other hand, have been ducking and diving and changing our line on a regular basis.
What you were doing was giving examples of a couple of politicians who disagreed with the EU's negotiating position, not providing evidence that they had used it in an unprincipled, unprofessional or inconsistent way.
Billy,
I didnt expect you to have it! You come across as being completely unwilling to accept any criticism of the EU in any respect!
I’ve given you 3 examples where the EU had been dogmatic and unprincipled and you’re completely dismissing them because they don’t suit your narrative!
For the record I agree that our stance to negotiations had been shambolic, incompetent and not thought through but you really should understand that one side is not completely responsible for this
Wilts
I think young Rory has just inadvertently captured the core of current Conservative politics.
"I'm producing a number to illustrate what I believe."
One couldn't make it up. HE could, obviously, but no one else could.
If, for whatever reason, the UK does not leave the EU what effect, if any, does this have on the nature of democracy?
Genuine question
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
HA
Please explain why the vote I suggest would be unfair or undemocratic.
It seems undeniable to me that in the 2016 vote, no-one knew what Brexit meant. I say that, because now, 29 months later, we STILL don't know what Brexiters means. It could be a No Deal Brexit. Or it could be the May Deal Brexit.
But thats the point. The binary vote in 2016 was a false premise.
NOW, we have far more clarity. We know what the real options are. So it seems to me that NOT having the vote I suggest would be the real undemicratic outrage.
Am I missing something obvious? Is there a reason why this proposed vote would be undemocratic?
BB
But that is entirely avoiding the point I made up the page.
The Referendum WAS a two-choice question on a subject that wasn't a two-choice question.
I'm bemused by how many people are clinging to this as some sort of totem of democracy that must never be questioned.
Farage would have continued to fight against the status quo, had he lost the vote. That is different to the demands for a new vote before the original vote has even been implemented!
"Once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision, the UK has "referendums not Neverendums".
BBWho says we can't change the decision in future?
I'll answer your point.
Democracy revolves around being able to change decisions.
Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting.
We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust MPs to fill in the details afterwards.
For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it.
And a democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy.
A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
Are you trying to tell us a vote by the electorate that has a different result to a previous vote by the electorate is undemocratic...just because it's different?
A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!
I suppose we're STILL ignoring the fact that Russia was meddling with the referendum, and that illegally harvested data was used to try and swing the vote.
But no, you're right, having a second vote is definitely undemocratic in the face of all that.
The referendum was also supposed to be run legally, with no money pouring in from foreign powers, and no illegally harvested data being used to target susceptible Facebook users with lies and propaganda, but hey ho. Here we are.A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!
The referendum was supposed to be a one off, remember?
The referendum was also supposed to be run legally, with no money pouring in from foreign powers, and no illegally harvested data being used to target susceptible Facebook users with lies and propaganda, but hey ho. Here we are.A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!
The referendum was supposed to be a one off, remember?
Amazing how Brexiters flatly refuse to engage with this point.
Farage was banging the drum before the count even took place!The referendum was also supposed to be run legally, with no money pouring in from foreign powers, and no illegally harvested data being used to target susceptible Facebook users with lies and propaganda, but hey ho. Here we are.A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!
The referendum was supposed to be a one off, remember?
Amazing how Brexiters flatly refuse to engage with this point.
Macho,
Yes, you’re right, and if those things are proven and if they did influence the result then a second vote should be considered, however remainers were beating the drum for a second vote long before any illegalities reared their head.
It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest another referendum, it wont happen.
1. it would destroy the public's trust in any future refferendum
2. This silly claim that we didn't know what we would be voting for can be applied to ALL votes, with hindsight.
3. It would make a mockery even more of the uk, 'oh no, this brexit business is hard, let's have another vote and hope for the best'.
4. It basically says the the public, we don't care what you voted for.
5. The remain side vehemently said this was a one off vote, (but only when they believed they would win)
HA
Please explain why the vote I suggest would be unfair or undemocratic.
It seems undeniable to me that in the 2016 vote, no-one knew what Brexit meant. I say that, because now, 29 months later, we STILL don't know what Brexiters means. It could be a No Deal Brexit. Or it could be the May Deal Brexit.
But thats the point. The binary vote in 2016 was a false premise. People voted Leave for all sorts of different reasons and wanted all sorts of different outcomes. But, if there's no further opportunity to vote, then each and every one of those Leave votes will have been interpreted as supporting the Leave that we finally get.
How on earth is that some democratic ideal?
NOW, we have far more clarity. We know what the real options are. So it seems to me that NOT having the vote I suggest would be the real undemocratic outrage.
Am I missing something obvious? Is there a reason why this proposed vote would be undemocratic and the 2016 vote is as good as it's ever going to get?
A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
Are you trying to tell us a vote by the electorate that has a different result to a previous vote by the electorate is undemocratic...just because it's different?
Glyn,
The Referendum vote was billed as a one off, a once in a generation referendum. If I recall rightly the remain side were particularly keen to get this point across. Lo and behold, the vote goes the other way and suddenly we need another one, a ‘people’s vote’!
BST, as someone who is considerably older and considerably wiser than myself I have a question for you, do you think that this crop of politicians (on all sides) are the worst in modern history? So many of them across all parties come across as just inept. It’s understandable though I think, anyone with real ability and knowledge would surely end up doing something where the rewards are far greater.
BST, as someone who is considerably older and considerably wiser than myself I have a question for you, do you think that this crop of politicians (on all sides) are the worst in modern history? So many of them across all parties come across as just inept. It’s understandable though I think, anyone with real ability and knowledge would surely end up doing something where the rewards are far greater.
What sort of lies were these, Billy.......
https://brexitcentral.com/audacious-lie-referendum-campaign-remainers-claim-immigration/
BBThe suppression of journalism in Turkey is palpable and it is a common denominator when comparing dictatorships:
How long do you want to wait on Turkey?
I'd happily bet any sum you want that they won't be members while I'm alive.
One of the key successes of the EU has been to make dictatorships unacceptable in Europe, and to support human rights. There is not a chance in a million that a Turkey under the rule of Erdogan and his followers would ever be allowed into the EU. And it would take them a generation to rebuild the democracy that he has destroyed.
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.
You see Billy, this is where people perceive different things to suit their own agendas. I never thought that poster was a portrait of immigrants queueing up to get into the UK. I thought it was merely an example of what could happen if we didn't control our borders. The bullshit about suggestions of racism almost made me change my vote to leave.I thought it was a the queue for a Justin Bieber concert, turns out I was wrong.
And Are you saying the murder of Jo Cox took place because of that poster?
Nothing unusual there then!I'm a member of a large club bb
Aye, Justin Bieber has a decent following.Nothing unusual there then!I'm a member of a large club bb
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.
Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.
Glyn to respond please.
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.
Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.
Glyn to respond please.
The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.
Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.
Glyn to respond please.
The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.
Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.
Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.
Glyn to respond please.
The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.
Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.
Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.
Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.
Glyn to respond please.
The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.
Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.
Ignorance of the electorate is no objection to the validity of the 2016 vote though, is it?
Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.
Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.
I care less for the economic consequences, than I do for the positive impact regaining British sovereignty will have, and the positive impact reduced immigration will have.Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.
Boomstick.
John Redwood, who is as passionate an advocate for a Hard Brexit as you will find, accepted on Any Questions on R4 last week that a no deal Brexit would lead to a 7.5% reduction in GDP compared to the alternative of remaining. This will be hard wired into the UK economy permanently.
So tell us. What are the benefits of the No Deal that would balance this loss of national income?
Bear in mind that the 1980-1 recession involved a loss of GDP of about 2% FOR ONE YEAR and that lead to a increase in unemployment of about 2 million which took the rest of the decade to bring down. And the recession of 2008 involved a similar fall in GDP for one year and that led to an increase in unemployment of about 1million and a decade long stagnation of wages.
What are the upsides of No Deal that counterbalance the sort of economic carnage that would come with a 7.5% reduction in GDP?
Brilliant.More like, we would be the ones that coughed.
Set fire to your house and take pleasure from the fact that your neighbour coughs a bit on the smoke.
Like the EU helped the British motor industry when BMW screwed over Rover?
[/quot
Oh you mean like when Bayer bought out ICI and then shut all is factories down making us reliant on German produced Medication!
Like the EU helped the British motor industry when BMW screwed over Rover?
I voted leave for the long term benefit of my country, unlike I suspect most remainers who voted for short term perceived benefit in their wallets. True patriots eh?
Like the EU helped the British motor industry when BMW screwed over Rover?
[/quot
Oh you mean like when Bayer bought out ICI and then shut all is factories down making us reliant on German produced Medication!
Remind me when that happened.
BoomstickNothing you ranted on about there has any substance whatsoever, the more you rant won't win you the argument.
You really haven't got a clue have you? I don't know where you get this comic book concept of what people on the Left believe, but it is infantile in the extreme.
And a weak economic argument? You reckon the projected loss of £150bn economic output every single year is a weak case? You reckon it won't affect South Yorkshire? You are away with the fairies man. South Yorkshire and the post-industrial North will be the first regions to be hit and will be hit harder and for longer than anywhere else. Just as we have been in every economic slump in living memory.
Where do you think our jobs and our livings come from? Why do you think they would be protected from the sort of economic hit that usually only comes from losing a major war?
Like the EU helped the British motor industry when BMW screwed over Rover?
[/quot
Oh you mean like when Bayer bought out ICI and then shut all is factories down making us reliant on German produced Medication!
Boomstick. You really need to get over these infant school stereotypes. Meet some real people. Talk to them. Listen to them. There's a complex world out there.Is that all you can come up with? Pretty sure I've offered to buy you a drink recently ?
I voted leave for the long term benefit of my country, unlike I suspect most remainers who voted for short term perceived benefit in their wallets. True patriots eh?
Our country or London? The EU supports farmers, the EU gives funding to areas like ours so we can have developments like Cast. The British government gives us austerity, in turn shit load of homeless people on our streets, the British government gives us the shambles that is Northern Rail.
Perhaps if our industries were a bit better run, we might be in a position to takeover a few in Germany.
Are these the same businesses that we are all supposed to listen to and bow down to because they know best about what Brexit deal we should have?
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/221747
Get signed up for this.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/221747
Get signed up for this.
Only the brain dead would sign that. Seems there's at least 44,526 brain dead people already!
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/221747
Get signed up for this.
Only the brain dead would sign that. Seems there's at least 44,526 brain dead people already!
Are you?
It makes me laugh that you remainiacs seem to believe that your views are held by the majority in the country, when they are clearly not. You have had your EU love in for the past forty odd years, but even that is not enough. you want to inflict even more decades of pain on us.
Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.
The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.
Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.
Glyn to respond please.
The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.
Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.
Ignorance of the electorate is no objection to the validity of the 2016 vote though, is it?
No of course not, but I see that you are avoiding answering the questions.
Are you indeed a politician.
One benefit would be to sit back and watch serious harm come to the German car industry.
If there are no BMW's in the UK what will all the t**ts drive?
Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.''Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near''
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
Unfortunately, it seems that what could have been a fantastic opportunity for UK organisations such as this one, we’re making such a hash of it that nobody is going to benefit! Consequently, if this is the best that our government can do then we’re better off in.
Instead, all we’re getting are two groups of people shouting “I’m right” at each other.
Thanks NNK, very interesting read.QuotePerhaps if our industries were a bit better run, we might be in a position to takeover a few in Germany.Are these the same businesses that we are all supposed to listen to and bow down to because they know best about what Brexit deal we should have?
Perhaps you should read this and understand why our industries lag behind France and Germany etc.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml
Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.''Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near''
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
Unfortunately, it seems that what could have been a fantastic opportunity for UK organisations such as this one, we’re making such a hash of it that nobody is going to benefit! Consequently, if this is the best that our government can do then we’re better off in.
Instead, all we’re getting are two groups of people shouting “I’m right” at each other.
Surely by now HA you understand that any successes gained in leaving (your only one example other this this anecdotal one is about re-nationalising rail, of which most could be achieved now without leaving) would be dwarfed by the benefits of staying.
''Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left''
Why if this SME is being undercut by a company within the EU wouldn't it be undercut outside the EU also, is the EU the only place to make theses ''widgets''?
Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.''Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near''
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
Unfortunately, it seems that what could have been a fantastic opportunity for UK organisations such as this one, we’re making such a hash of it that nobody is going to benefit! Consequently, if this is the best that our government can do then we’re better off in.
Instead, all we’re getting are two groups of people shouting “I’m right” at each other.
Surely by now HA you understand that any successes gained in leaving (your only one example other this this anecdotal one is about re-nationalising rail, of which most could be achieved now without leaving) would be dwarfed by the benefits of staying.
''Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left''
Why if this SME is being undercut by a company within the EU wouldn't it be undercut outside the EU also, is the EU the only place to make theses ''widgets''?
Sydney,
The point around EU restrictions around rail renationalisation is fact. The rules imposed by the EU are clear. They don’t allow wholesale nationalisation!! I really don’t know how to put this any other way for you! The examples you have are NOT examples of full nationalisation!
I offered a tangible example of how a business feels that they would benefit by trading outside the EU. I’m sure that there is a possibility that they may be undercut outside the EU too, however, with all due respect to you, I put more credence on their opinion than yours in this matter.
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.''Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near''
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
Unfortunately, it seems that what could have been a fantastic opportunity for UK organisations such as this one, we’re making such a hash of it that nobody is going to benefit! Consequently, if this is the best that our government can do then we’re better off in.
Instead, all we’re getting are two groups of people shouting “I’m right” at each other.
Surely by now HA you understand that any successes gained in leaving (your only one example other this this anecdotal one is about re-nationalising rail, of which most could be achieved now without leaving) would be dwarfed by the benefits of staying.
''Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left''
Why if this SME is being undercut by a company within the EU wouldn't it be undercut outside the EU also, is the EU the only place to make theses ''widgets''?
Sydney,
The point around EU restrictions around rail renationalisation is fact. The rules imposed by the EU are clear. They don’t allow wholesale nationalisation!! I really don’t know how to put this any other way for you! The examples you have are NOT examples of full nationalisation!
I offered a tangible example of how a business feels that they would benefit by trading outside the EU. I’m sure that there is a possibility that they may be undercut outside the EU too, however, with all due respect to you, I put more credence on their opinion than yours in this matter.
With all due respect you or anyone else having a chat with a moaning business owner wishing things were better or that business would be better ''if only'' is nothing new and does not prove anything.
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
That's a really interesting example HA, I don't suppose you happen to know which EU competition & trade rules that MD is referring to that is stopping him from expanding outside the EU?
I know next to nothing about the rail industry (although that generally doesn't stop me) but I do know people who work at Westinghouse and they are forever off on a new contract somewhere, Holland, Nigeria, Hong Kong, Argentina. Clearly there is something different between selling and installing brakes and signals and whatever your guys does, I just wondered what it was?
No, it's because over 2 years (and 110 pages here) not you or anyone else has been able to show why leaving would be better option than staying and I will keep asking until someone does, but as I do listen and read I know that will not happen, it's basic first year economics/sales/marketing being within a large wealthy trading block has to be better than being outside. That you or any other individual does not agree does not concern me because if you haven't understood the ramifications for Britain and it's peoples to leave the EU by now you never will. Plenty of people have listened to both sides of the debate and enough are changing their minds to stay, or at least vote on the options.Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.''Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near''
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
Unfortunately, it seems that what could have been a fantastic opportunity for UK organisations such as this one, we’re making such a hash of it that nobody is going to benefit! Consequently, if this is the best that our government can do then we’re better off in.
Instead, all we’re getting are two groups of people shouting “I’m right” at each other.
Surely by now HA you understand that any successes gained in leaving (your only one example other this this anecdotal one is about re-nationalising rail, of which most could be achieved now without leaving) would be dwarfed by the benefits of staying.
''Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left''
Why if this SME is being undercut by a company within the EU wouldn't it be undercut outside the EU also, is the EU the only place to make theses ''widgets''?
Sydney,
The point around EU restrictions around rail renationalisation is fact. The rules imposed by the EU are clear. They don’t allow wholesale nationalisation!! I really don’t know how to put this any other way for you! The examples you have are NOT examples of full nationalisation!
I offered a tangible example of how a business feels that they would benefit by trading outside the EU. I’m sure that there is a possibility that they may be undercut outside the EU too, however, with all due respect to you, I put more credence on their opinion than yours in this matter.
With all due respect you or anyone else having a chat with a moaning business owner wishing things were better or that business would be better ''if only'' is nothing new and does not prove anything.
So I have a chat (admittedly nothing formal, just a quick chat over a coffee) with a business owner who expressed genuine concerns and you simply dismiss this as moaning?
You’ve been keen to mention a few times that nobody has yet given one good reason for leaving the EU...maybe it’s because you’re not listening?
If there are no BMW's in the UK what will all the t**ts drive?
However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.
If there are no BMW's in the UK what will all the t**ts drive?
If there are no BMW's in the UK what will all the t**ts drive?
This t**t will carry on driving the one he’s got, just to piss off the rest of the t**ts that haven’t got one
If there are no BMW's in the UK what will all the t**ts drive?
This t**t will carry on driving the one he’s got, just to piss off the rest of the t**ts that haven’t got one
I take it you don't go out in ice or snow? :)
If there are no BMW's in the UK what will all the t**ts drive?
This t**t will carry on driving the one he’s got, just to piss off the rest of the t**ts that haven’t got one
I take it you don't go out in ice or snow? :)
Yes the 4 wheel drive is excellent in those conditions
Why do some drivers like BMW's? Because they can spell it.
Yes lets summon up the ghosts of the british bulldog spirit, reform the commonwealth and we'll be alright. Unfortunately the majority of experts in business, finance, unions/workers conditions do not agree.However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.
That right there is the real problem - the fact that so many people who voted Brexit actually believe all we have to do is be "brave" and "show endeavour" to make Brexit a success?!?? No plan, no understanding of the economic predicament we are going to find ourselves in, no estimates for the industries that are most likely to be affecting, or which countries we should (already be) peparing to make trade deals with, just be brave dammit!
What garbage.
Yes lets summon up the ghosts of the british bulldog spirit, reform the commonwealth and we'll be alright. Unfortunately the majority of experts in business, finance, unions/workers conditions do not agree.However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.
That right there is the real problem - the fact that so many people who voted Brexit actually believe all we have to do is be "brave" and "show endeavour" to make Brexit a success?!?? No plan, no understanding of the economic predicament we are going to find ourselves in, no estimates for the industries that are most likely to be affecting, or which countries we should (already be) peparing to make trade deals with, just be brave dammit!
What garbage.
This could be a bit of fun for the Boris fans......
On Saturday 17th November, Boris Johnson MP was notified of private prosecutor Marcus J Ball’s intention to bring a private prosecution case against him. The case is in accordance with section 6(1) of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985, for the alleged offence of misconduct in public office.
Mr Ball has instructed Bankside Commercial to bring on his behalf, the private prosecution against Mr Johnson MP.
Bankside Commercial has retained the services of three barristers from Church Court Chambers: Mr Lewis Power QC, Colin Witcher and Anthony Eskander.
Lawyers speaking on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z_GMmCtckM
The alleged offence of misconduct in public office arises from statements made and or endorsed by Boris Johnson MP in his capacity as an MP and Mayor of London prior to and following the EU Referendum concerning the cost of EU Membership. Mr Ball alleges that the claim that the UK ‘sends £350 million a week to the EU’ was knowingly false.
Also, that Mr Johnson made or endorsed these statements with the intention of persuading the British Public to vote Leave in the EU Referendum.
Mr Johnson MP has been invited to comment.
Marcus J Ball, private prosecutor
Lewis Power QC has made plain that the legal team are “duty bound not to comment upon the guilt or innocence of Mr Johnson as this is a decision that can only be made within a court of law”
Giles Bright, lead solicitor on the case, stated his agreement with Mr Power QC’s comments and added that: ‘…our role as solicitors for Mr Ball, is to consider a set of facts and assess whether they constitute behaviour that ought to be put before a criminal court to consider. The prosecution team instructed are expert criminal lawyers who have experience of complex cases covering war crimes, terrorism, murder, judicial review and serious fraud prosecutions to name a few”
Giles Bright, of Bankside Commercial, lead solicitor on the case
When asked if the case was an attempt to stop Brexit Mr Ball said that: ‘This is about stopping lying in politics; this is not about stopping Brexit, the courts do not have the power to do that. We do need to stop politicians from lying in any future referendums though. The motivation for this prosecution is a desire to bring a beginning to the end of lying in politics’.
The private prosecution case has been crowdfunded by over 7000 people across four separate crowdfunds since it first began in June 2016.
Mr Ball invites all potential backers to read the information presented on his Crowdfund page. https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjusticeprosecution 1
Mr Power QC reiterated that ‘Mr Johnson is innocent unless proven guilty within a court of law. The rule of law requires the public and the press to remember this when publishing any comments concerning this case’.
The team awaits comment from Mr Johnson’s lawyers and plan to advance the prosecution with a laying of an information at the Magistrate’s Court at the start of the new year.
Contact info:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MarcusJBall (#BrexitJustice)
Marcus J Ball
marcusjeball@gmail.com
07917 086231
London
www.BrexitJustice.com
If there are no BMW's in the UK what will all the t**ts drive?
This t**t will carry on driving the one he’s got, just to piss off the rest of the t**ts that haven’t got one
I take it you don't go out in ice or snow? :)
Yes the 4 wheel drive is excellent in those conditions
I read this on another web site....
QuoteThis could be a bit of fun for the Boris fans......
On Saturday 17th November, Boris Johnson MP was notified of private prosecutor Marcus J Ball’s intention to bring a private prosecution case against him. The case is in accordance with section 6(1) of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985, for the alleged offence of misconduct in public office.
Mr Ball has instructed Bankside Commercial to bring on his behalf, the private prosecution against Mr Johnson MP.
Bankside Commercial has retained the services of three barristers from Church Court Chambers: Mr Lewis Power QC, Colin Witcher and Anthony Eskander.
Lawyers speaking on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z_GMmCtckM
The alleged offence of misconduct in public office arises from statements made and or endorsed by Boris Johnson MP in his capacity as an MP and Mayor of London prior to and following the EU Referendum concerning the cost of EU Membership. Mr Ball alleges that the claim that the UK ‘sends £350 million a week to the EU’ was knowingly false.
Also, that Mr Johnson made or endorsed these statements with the intention of persuading the British Public to vote Leave in the EU Referendum.
Mr Johnson MP has been invited to comment.
Marcus J Ball, private prosecutor
Lewis Power QC has made plain that the legal team are “duty bound not to comment upon the guilt or innocence of Mr Johnson as this is a decision that can only be made within a court of law”
Giles Bright, lead solicitor on the case, stated his agreement with Mr Power QC’s comments and added that: ‘…our role as solicitors for Mr Ball, is to consider a set of facts and assess whether they constitute behaviour that ought to be put before a criminal court to consider. The prosecution team instructed are expert criminal lawyers who have experience of complex cases covering war crimes, terrorism, murder, judicial review and serious fraud prosecutions to name a few”
Giles Bright, of Bankside Commercial, lead solicitor on the case
When asked if the case was an attempt to stop Brexit Mr Ball said that: ‘This is about stopping lying in politics; this is not about stopping Brexit, the courts do not have the power to do that. We do need to stop politicians from lying in any future referendums though. The motivation for this prosecution is a desire to bring a beginning to the end of lying in politics’.
The private prosecution case has been crowdfunded by over 7000 people across four separate crowdfunds since it first began in June 2016.
Mr Ball invites all potential backers to read the information presented on his Crowdfund page. https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjusticeprosecution 1
Mr Power QC reiterated that ‘Mr Johnson is innocent unless proven guilty within a court of law. The rule of law requires the public and the press to remember this when publishing any comments concerning this case’.
The team awaits comment from Mr Johnson’s lawyers and plan to advance the prosecution with a laying of an information at the Magistrate’s Court at the start of the new year.
Contact info:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MarcusJBall (#BrexitJustice)
Marcus J Ball
marcusjeball@gmail.com
07917 086231
London
www.BrexitJustice.com
Could be interesting.
No, it's because over 2 years (and 110 pages here) not you or anyone else has been able to show why leaving would be better option than staying and I will keep asking until someone does, but as I do listen and read I know that will not happen, it's basic first year economics/sales/marketing being within a large wealthy trading block has to be better than being outside. That you or any other individual does not agree does not concern me because if you haven't understood the ramifications for Britain and it's peoples to leave the EU by now you never will. Plenty of people have listened to both sides of the debate and enough are changing their minds to stay, or at least vote on the options.Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.''Only a maniac would believe that there’s no risks to leaving the EU. However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near''
Here’s a tangible example
Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left.
Unfortunately, it seems that what could have been a fantastic opportunity for UK organisations such as this one, we’re making such a hash of it that nobody is going to benefit! Consequently, if this is the best that our government can do then we’re better off in.
Instead, all we’re getting are two groups of people shouting “I’m right” at each other.
Surely by now HA you understand that any successes gained in leaving (your only one example other this this anecdotal one is about re-nationalising rail, of which most could be achieved now without leaving) would be dwarfed by the benefits of staying.
''Around a year ago I was doing some work for a SME organisation in the West Midlands and the M.D. of that organisation was telling me how they’re continually being undercut by cheaper rivals in the EU. He was incredibly frustrated that he was unable to substantially extend his market outside of Europe, particularly into the US due to EU competition & trade rules. His opinion was the EU isn’t a level playing field so saw real opportunities once we left''
Why if this SME is being undercut by a company within the EU wouldn't it be undercut outside the EU also, is the EU the only place to make theses ''widgets''?
Sydney,
The point around EU restrictions around rail renationalisation is fact. The rules imposed by the EU are clear. They don’t allow wholesale nationalisation!! I really don’t know how to put this any other way for you! The examples you have are NOT examples of full nationalisation!
I offered a tangible example of how a business feels that they would benefit by trading outside the EU. I’m sure that there is a possibility that they may be undercut outside the EU too, however, with all due respect to you, I put more credence on their opinion than yours in this matter.
With all due respect you or anyone else having a chat with a moaning business owner wishing things were better or that business would be better ''if only'' is nothing new and does not prove anything.
So I have a chat (admittedly nothing formal, just a quick chat over a coffee) with a business owner who expressed genuine concerns and you simply dismiss this as moaning?
You’ve been keen to mention a few times that nobody has yet given one good reason for leaving the EU...maybe it’s because you’re not listening?
Recycling misinformation and anecdotes does nothing for a sensible debate and if that's all you have then I wouldn't be putting my money on Britain being a better place following any form of brexit, however if you do feel so inclined I'm sure a bookie somewhere would be happy to relieve you of your hard earned.
However I really hoped that, as a country, we would be brave enough and show the endeavour required to make it a success. But we’re not, nowhere near.
That right there is the real problem - the fact that so many people who voted Brexit actually believe all we have to do is be "brave" and "show endeavour" to make Brexit a success?!?? No plan, no understanding of the economic predicament we are going to find ourselves in, no estimates for the industries that are most likely to be affecting, or which countries we should (already be) peparing to make trade deals with, just be brave dammit!
What garbage.
If Theresa May was to say outright that her brexit deal would be better for the UK than the status quo of EU membership then she'd be equally as guilty of future conjecture as you and your mates on here.I'll take that as a comment and reply, if following 2 years of high level negotiations with I presume the best team of negotiators at your disposal and a deal consisting of 500 pages that the government should know inside out and she can't or refuses to tell the people of Britain what the effects of this deal will be she then she needs to resign. There is a deal on the table which has been negotiated, there is or should be modelling and recommendations that has guided the government on what the best course of action is to take and what the likely outcomes will be, and again if the government can't tell us then they should call an election and get a fresh mandate from the people to accept or not the deal on the table.
If Theresa May was to say outright that her brexit deal would be better for the UK than the status quo of EU membership then she'd be equally as guilty of future conjecture as you and your mates on here.
If Theresa May was to say outright that her brexit deal would be better for the UK than the status quo of EU membership then she'd be equally as guilty of future conjecture as you and your mates on here.
That was one of the questions she was asked by a caller during her Radio 5 piece on Friday lunchtime and she refused to answer it. Three times. How is your deal better than remaining in the EU? Her final answer was something along the lines of 'I can't say it will be better but it will be different'.
If Theresa May was to say outright that her brexit deal would be better for the UK than the status quo of EU membership then she'd be equally as guilty of future conjecture as you and your mates on here.
That was one of the questions she was asked by a caller during her Radio 5 piece on Friday lunchtime and she refused to answer it. Three times. How is your deal better than remaining in the EU? Her final answer was something along the lines of 'I can't say it will be better but it will be different'.
What more could she say without guessing?
Yes, it is, though I doubt you'll agree with her no matter what she says.All those that support Brexit should be able to examine the deal and match it up with their own shopping list of needs and wants, easy.
......And what about those who voted to remain?That's even easier, there will be nothing they want in the doc ..............mmmm, I wonder which page sovereignty is on.
......And what about those who voted to remain?That's even easier, there will be nothing they want in the doc ..............mmmm, I wonder which page sovereignty is on.
Here you are bb, be my guest, let me know how you go.......And what about those who voted to remain?That's even easier, there will be nothing they want in the doc ..............mmmm, I wonder which page sovereignty is on.
''I voted remain, but there might be something I want in the doc''
Dianne abbots take on brexit http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46315250
Dianne abbots take on brexit http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46315250That doesn’t add up right............a bit like Ms Abbott I guess./quote]
It's only one quote from the article.
exactly . remain is the best deal , vote remain and put this farce to bed once and for all. the ' we are better than Europe- because we won the war ' brigade are dying off . vote for the future.So exactly how old are the "We won the war brigade"?
exactly . remain is the best deal , vote remain and put this farce to bed once and for all. the ' we are better than Europe- because we won the war ' brigade are dying off . vote for the future.
Dear Mrs May
I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table.
Your party’s little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders.
I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal.
My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma.
So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren’s freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe.
You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said “ illegal” but that was b*llocks as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered.
Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it
You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying bas**rds Gove and Bojo but daren’t because you haven’t the actual power.
You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out
Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market.
You could have kept our industries going with investment and development – Germany managed it. But no – The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil
So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous.
48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them.
There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers – homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit.
The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I’ve bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I’m typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I’m tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander mentality.
Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.
exactly . remain is the best deal , vote remain and put this farce to bed once and for all. the ' we are better than Europe- because we won the war ' brigade are dying off . vote for the future.
Disgusting comment.
God f**king help us.
Mike Harding has replied to TM's open letter to the people....
QuoteDear Mrs May
I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table.
Your party’s little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders.
I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal.
My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma.
So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren’s freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe.
You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said “ illegal” but that was b*llocks as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered.
Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it
You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying bas**rds Gove and Bojo but daren’t because you haven’t the actual power.
You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out
Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market.
You could have kept our industries going with investment and development – Germany managed it. But no – The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil
So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous.
48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them.
There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers – homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit.
The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I’ve bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I’m typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I’m tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander mentality.
Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.
We are special. We are better than the feckless, bone-idle, cheating wasters over the Channel, and when we threaten to leave, they'll shite it and give us whatever deal we want.
We are better than a bunch of arrogant square heads backed up by their garlic munching, turn coat friends and numerous tin pot, beetroot soup swigging no-hopers.
HA.
Once again, the EU has been straight down the line from the start. They have said that we CAN have a trade deal that benefits us, but it comes with conditions attached, namely that, if we want the benefits, we have to make sure that Brexit doesn't unduly affect EU countries.
That's not "running circle around us". It's merely setting out the conditions of negotiation and sticking to them. That was entirely predictable before June 2016, except for those folk who told us that we would hold the whip hand in negotiations and have the EU begging us for a deal.
We are special. We are better than the feckless, bone-idle, cheating wasters over the Channel, and when we threaten to leave, they'll shite it and give us whatever deal we want.
We are better than a bunch of arrogant square heads backed up by their garlic munching, turn coat friends and numerous tin pot, beetroot soup swigging no-hopers.
HA
Ok. I'll take the Galileo issue as a piece of hard bargaining.
As far as stopping us negotiating independently with other countries, maybe the EU were doing us a favour...
https://mobile.twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1067433184130809859?s=19
I really do not understand the constant squealing coming from those that want to resign their membership of the club but still want to buy cheap beer over the bar and have their kids go to the xmas party.
Well I think you're going to have to give up the cheap beer bit as well, because as the gdp continues to plummet in comparison to other countries that retain their membership the money will have to come from somewhere. Austerity has only worked for those able to enjoy generous tax cuts and I don't see any other plans plans except some vague notion of dealing with the ''free world'' because the deal being offered pleases no one. How are this governments best negotiators going to get these better trade deals when after two years they are still at first base with brexit. And why have they been unable to get a deal from the EU that is considered a good deal? the answer is easy, think about it for a minute and have us swap places with any of the other 27 countries, if the shoe, boot or clog was on the other foot would we let another country cash in their membership and still be happy for them to get cheap beer and let their kids go to the xmas party?I really do not understand the constant squealing coming from those that want to resign their membership of the club but still want to buy cheap beer over the bar and have their kids go to the xmas party.
Sydney,
Who’s squealing? I’m merely trying to point out that the EU isn’t the glorious utopia that you, and others, are claiming it is!
Using your Club analogy, I’m all for a club where we enjoy ‘cheap beer’ but I don’t want to be part of a club that tells me what to drink and how much.
Well I think you're going to have to give up the cheap beer bit as well, because as the gdp continues to plummet in comparison to other countries that retain their membership the money will have to come from somewhere. Austerity has only worked for those able to enjoy generous tax cuts and I don't see any other plans plans except some vague notion of dealing with the ''free world'' because the deal being offered pleases no one. How are this governments best negotiators going to get these better trade deals when after two years they are still at first base with brexit. And why have they been unable to get a deal from the EU that is considered a good deal? the answer is easy, think about it for a minute and have us swap places with any of the other 27 countries, if the shoe, boot or clog was on the other foot would we let another country cash in their membership and still be happy for them to get cheap beer and let their kids go to the xmas party?I really do not understand the constant squealing coming from those that want to resign their membership of the club but still want to buy cheap beer over the bar and have their kids go to the xmas party.
Sydney,
Who’s squealing? I’m merely trying to point out that the EU isn’t the glorious utopia that you, and others, are claiming it is!
Using your Club analogy, I’m all for a club where we enjoy ‘cheap beer’ but I don’t want to be part of a club that tells me what to drink and how much.
That is shocking reporting by the BBC. Totally misrepresents the facts.
The forecast is NOT that No Deal leaves us £150bn worse off after 15 years. It is that GDP will be £150bn lower.
The BBC article suggests that we would lose £150bn of wealth. Full stop. But the figures say we would, by that time, be losing £150bn EVERY YEAR!
That is the entire NHS and Defence budgets. Gone. Permanently.
Absolute f**king stupidity to even countenance a situation like that, never mind actively want it.
Would a different PM or Party have been able to achieve better?
Would a different PM or Party have been able to achieve better?
I don't think anyone would, because there is no better economic plan than staying in the largest trading bloc in the world FFS!
The state of politics is disgusting; no-one in Government dares speak the truth and admit staying in the EU is the best option because they are scared they will lose their seat in the next election. We're talking about the FACT we will lose billions a year for the next decade (at least), all for the potential to do trading deals with other countries (which no-one wants to name yet?) and we'll be able to stop a few thousand european immigrants moving here. It's a f**king shit show.
At last, someone who agrees with me and isn’t afraid to say so.
It isn’t just the government that is disgusting though bjw is it, it is all parties.
At last, someone who agrees with me and isn’t afraid to say so.
It isn’t just the government that is disgusting though bjw is it, it is all parties.
It's frustrating that Labour haven't backed remain or the people's vote yet (although some individual MP's have); again because certain politicians are looking after themselves first. I won't include JC in that because he is actually sticking to the same story he's had for decades, although he should at least come out and admit leaving now is a bad idea.
But.
This is all far from over.
There's little chance of May getting the deal through Parliament. She's insisting that if she doesn't, the only alternative is a No Deal Brexit. That will not happen. The Tory party is already making plans for what to do when she is humiliated in the Parliamentary vote in a fortnight. The whispers at the moment are that they will knife her, put the process on hold and have a second referendum.
But.
This is all far from over.
There's little chance of May getting the deal through Parliament. She's insisting that if she doesn't, the only alternative is a No Deal Brexit. That will not happen. The Tory party is already making plans for what to do when she is humiliated in the Parliamentary vote in a fortnight. The whispers at the moment are that they will knife her, put the process on hold and have a second referendum.
..........and it isn’t so long ago that I was being told by someone on here that there was no chance of a second referendum.
But.
This is all far from over.
There's little chance of May getting the deal through Parliament. She's insisting that if she doesn't, the only alternative is a No Deal Brexit. That will not happen. The Tory party is already making plans for what to do when she is humiliated in the Parliamentary vote in a fortnight. The whispers at the moment are that they will knife her, put the process on hold and have a second referendum.
The point is that it is now unarguable that the Leave case in 2016 was utter nonsense.
We were told that we could have all the benefits of trade with the EU and none of the disadvantages.
We were told that the EU would be pleading with us to cut a deal.
We were told that we would be better off outside.
That was the central theme of the Leave campaign. And every single bit of it is now demonstrably wrong.
Anyone who says that there is no case for revisiting the decision doesn't really believe in democracy.
HAWhy are you so concerned about protecting banks and big business? Which would stand to lose the most.
The advantages are there in today's report. Something between £200bn and £1trn extra economic growth over the next 15 years.
It's blindingly obvious.
The latest news confirms what BST has been banging on about for months.
ALL options for leaving the EU range from bad to disasterous.
We need another vote when hopefully the electorate will come to their senses and overturn the 2016 debacle.
Hound
That's precisely the point.
There IS no Brexit deal which combines:
1) Us leaving the EU
2) Us being economically no worse off
3) EU acceptance.
Those three things are mutually incompatible. That was clear from before the referendum, but Leave voters were promised some magical world in which inconvenient facts like that evaporated.
If we vote Leave in full knowledge of the real consequences, not the bullshit that was spun in 2016, then I for one would accept that as the decision of the country.
We'd be economically hammered. But we'd have made the decision in the full knowledge that we'd be economically hammered.
If people choose to leave the EU in the knowledge of what the consequences will be, that's democracy.
There's only one person responsible for this whole sorry mess, and that's David Cameron; he called an unnecessary referendum to fuel his own ego, because he was certain that Remain would win; when the result went against him, he just turned round and f*cked off.
There will be another vote, and Remain will win. Then just wait for the water cannons.
Which is why the referendum should be a 3-option one with a transferrable vote.
Do you want to:
a)Leave with No Deal
b) Leave with May's Deal
c) Remain
You put a 1 by your first choice and a 2 by your second.
All the 1s are added up and the option in third place rejected. Then all the people who voted 1 for the third placed option have their "2" votes reallocated to the other two options. Whichever one of those then wins is the final decision, to be implemented by Parliament.
THAT is democracy. It's easy and unambiguous.
There's only one person responsible for this whole sorry mess, and that's David Cameron; he called an unnecessary referendum to fuel his own ego, because he was certain that Remain would win; when the result went against him, he just turned round and f*cked off.
There will be another vote, and Remain will win. Then just wait for the water cannons.
That is (the Cameron thing) quite true Steve.
I wouldn’t be too sure that Remain will win though mate.
I thought that last time.
BST says that all remainders should get up and vote but don’t forget that the leave campaigners will be telling people to get up and vote leave.
It will probably be quite a big turnout this time instead of the apathetic one last time.
Politically, there is the historical fact that Europe (including the UK) has been a horrifically dangerous place when nations are in opposition. The whole purpose of the European project has been to make people realise that jaw-jaw is better than war-war. Working and trading together, and ceding a bit of your right to act as you damn well please is a better environment than trying to do down your neighbours.
Then there's the other point that I've pointed out numerous times.
Democracy is not a given.
Within living memory, the following countries have been ruled by dictatorships.
France
Spain
Portugal
Italy
Croatia
Slovenia
Austria
Germany
Belgium
Netherlands
Denmark
Poland
Hungary
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Bulgaria
Romania
Greece.
The following countries have experienced military invasion or civil war within living memory.
UK
Spain
France
Italy
Austria
Germany
Netherlands
Belgium
Denmark
Poland
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Croatia
Slovenia
Romania
Bulgaria
Hungary
Greece
Cyprus
It is currently unthinkable for most of those countries to go back to dictatorships and a major part of that is the requirements of the EU.
I don't want to live in a continent where democracy is weak and countries fight with each other.
There's only one person responsible for this whole sorry mess, and that's David Cameron; he called an unnecessary referendum to fuel his own ego, because he was certain that Remain would win; when the result went against him, he just turned round and f*cked off.
There will be another vote, and Remain will win. Then just wait for the water cannons.
That is (the Cameron thing) quite true Steve.
I wouldn’t be too sure that Remain will win though mate.
I thought that last time.
BST says that all remainders should get up and vote but don’t forget that the leave campaigners will be telling people to get up and vote leave.
It will probably be quite a big turnout this time instead of the apathetic one last time.
I might be completely wrong here Hound, but wasn't there a high turnout for the referendum?.
HA
Your argument is getting confused. You're setting up straw men.
1) No-one said that the original Treaty of Rome countries were straining at the leash to go to war between 45 and 57. The cementing of the countries into a union was always intended to make it much less likely over the long run that they would go to war.
2) The countries of Yugoslavia weren't in the EU when they disintegrated into civil war. That is kind of the point. It is inconceivable now that Croatia would go to war with Serbia or Bosnia, because the EU would act as a restraining force.
3) Look at how recent democracy is to many European countries. Greece, Spain and Portugal were ruled by fascist military dictatorships only a decade or less before they joined the EU. NATO membership didn't stop that. A reversion to that condition now is unthinkable, again, because the EU demands democratic systems.
4) The Cold War ended nearly 30 years ago. So the idea that the stand-off between NATO and the WP was the guarantor of peace is a bit out of date.
There's been three decades of post Cold War peace in Western Europe. No fighting. No revolutions. No military coups. Not only that, but it's nigh in inconceivable that fighting will recommence in the medium term future.
Look back through history at how rarely we've had periods of peace and stability of half a century in Western Europe. It's obtuse not to give a great deal of the credit for that to the binding together of countries that the EU has facilitated.
HA
You were asking for a positive political message about the EU, so if you don't mind, I'm going to stick on topic and not get sidetracked into the much broader question of political influence.
There were brutal civil wars in Yugoslavia and (to a lesser extent) Cyprus in the second half of the 20th century. None of the participants were in the EU at the time. NATO existed and its existence did nothing to prevent those wars from occuring. My point is that it is inconceivable that there would be civil wars or Inter-country wars in or between countries that ARE NOW members of the EU.
Similarly, the presence of NATO forces in Europe and the discipline of the Cold War did nothing to stop the Iberian peninsula being governed by fascist dictators up to the 1970s. Nor did it prevent a military coup d'etat in Greece.
It is inconceivable that any EU country would now see democracy collapse(*), and that is in large part due to discipline that membership of the EU imposes. It's one obvious reason why Turkey under Erdogan will never join the EU, despite the bald lies that the Leave campaign quietly pumped into vulnerable people's social media feeds in 2016.
And none of that covers the two FAR bigger issues. That the really dangerous historical fault lines in Europe have been between UK, France, Germany and Russia. The EU (and NATO, of course) has been instrumental in binding three if those together against the changing threat of the fourth. Why do you think Putin has invested so much time, money and effort in supporting anti-EU forces in the UK, France, Hungary, Poland, Italy...
That final point is the overwhelming political positive of the EU.
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
2 years to sort this lot out, and here we are 4 months from the deadline and the PM is still playing for time, we have a debate in the House of Commons where everyone knows this deal is going to get thrown out, why not just have the debate now and give the Country more time to organise a 2nd referendum
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!
They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.
Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.
The outcome does affect us all.
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!
They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.
Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.
The outcome does affect us all.
May's constituency voted Remain. Should she represent their wishes?
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!
They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.
Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.
The outcome does affect us all.
May's constituency voted Remain. Should she represent their wishes?
At least she cast her vote, something that her colleagues are suggesting they might not do.
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!
They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.
Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.
The outcome does affect us all.
May's constituency voted Remain. Should she represent their wishes?
At least she cast her vote, something that her colleagues are suggesting they might not do.
Aren't any MPs who abstain merely representing the 28% who abstained at the referendum..? They need to be represented just as much as the rest of us! :silly:
Hound
It's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents.
Good of the country Vs personal interest.
In a better society, it would be obvious what to do.
Hound
It's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents.
Good of the country Vs personal interest.
In a better society, it would be obvious what to do.
Aye, abstain!
Hound
It's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents.
Good of the country Vs personal interest.
In a better society, it would be obvious what to do.
Aye, abstain!
Well thanks for reinforcing my original question there GW.
BST is saying the same as me really.
Not really doing the job they are elected to do.
Listening to the Chancellor yesterday, it seems that by leaving the EU on the PM’s terms we have to decide whether we’re happy to accept slower economic growth for complete political ownership within the UK.
BSSo you accept the main industry for employment is the private sector ?
Why do I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel?
I don't want to live in a country where banks and big business lose £200bn-£1trn of wealth. Because the effect of that will be utterly catastrophic for everyone in the country.
I don't know where this world is that you live in where ordinary people are magically insulated from what happens to Barclays Bank and Nissan, but if you have the directions, please pass them on.
Hound
It's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents.
Good of the country Vs personal interest.
In a better society, it would be obvious what to do.
Aye, abstain!
Well thanks for reinforcing my original question there GW.
BST is saying the same as me really.
Not really doing the job they are elected to do.
Only if you think they're meant to act as their constituents puppets. Which is NOT what they're elected to do. They're elected to think and act on their constituent's behalf, not take their directions.
Listening to the Chancellor yesterday, it seems that by leaving the EU on the PM’s terms we have to decide whether we’re happy to accept slower economic growth for complete political ownership within the UK.
Hound
It's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents.
Good of the country Vs personal interest.
In a better society, it would be obvious what to do.
Aye, abstain!
Well thanks for reinforcing my original question there GW.
BST is saying the same as me really.
Not really doing the job they are elected to do.
Only if you think they're meant to act as their constituents puppets. Which is NOT what they're elected to do. They're elected to think and act on their constituent's behalf, not take their directions.
Ahah, so if they are supposed to act on behalf of their constituents shouldn’t they turn up in Parliament and cast a vote next week.
It is probably the biggest thing they could vote on and to dodge it isn’t the right thing to do.
HA
You were asking for a positive political message about the EU, so if you don't mind, I'm going to stick on topic and not get sidetracked into the much broader question of political influence.
There were brutal civil wars in Yugoslavia and (to a lesser extent) Cyprus in the second half of the 20th century. None of the participants were in the EU at the time. NATO existed and its existence did nothing to prevent those wars from occuring. My point is that it is inconceivable that there would be civil wars or Inter-country wars in or between countries that ARE NOW members of the EU.
Similarly, the presence of NATO forces in Europe and the discipline of the Cold War did nothing to stop the Iberian peninsula being governed by fascist dictators up to the 1970s. Nor did it prevent a military coup d'etat in Greece.
It is inconceivable that any EU country would now see democracy collapse(*), and that is in large part due to discipline that membership of the EU imposes. It's one obvious reason why Turkey under Erdogan will never join the EU, despite the bald lies that the Leave campaign quietly pumped into vulnerable people's social media feeds in 2016.
And none of that covers the two FAR bigger issues. That the really dangerous historical fault lines in Europe have been between UK, France, Germany and Russia. The EU (and NATO, of course) has been instrumental in binding three if those together against the changing threat of the fourth. Why do you think Putin has invested so much time, money and effort in supporting anti-EU forces in the UK, France, Hungary, Poland, Italy...
That final point is the overwhelming political positive of the EU.
Billy,
As I stated earlier, its a given that nations that have economic interests in each other will tend to avoid conflict.
NATO may not have prevented the Balkan War, but DID (well us and the USA) stop it
While of course there have been no wars involving EU members, we are seeing a different threat to peace in Europe from the rise in extreme parties. This increase has been caused in large part by things such as mass unemployment, social dislocation and migration which in turn has been influenced by the EU. Look at things that are going on in Italy, Hungry, Germany, Austria. So while we're not seeing wars of the same magnitude as WW1 or WW2, things are far from peaceful in the EU.
Anyway, I note that you avoided my question regarding political control from the EU on VAT limits, so let me try another broader question. According to the BBC, between 1993 and 2014 62% of laws introduced in the UK implemented EU obligations including all EU regulations, EU related Acts of Parliament and EU related Statutory Instruments. How would you sell this to a leave supporter as being better for Britain?
If we stay in, what do we need the house of Commons and the House of Lords for? we have 80 odd representatives in Brussels.
We can get rid of layers of civil servants who feed off parliament, just think of the money it would save just in second residents, and first class train fairs alone.
Just let the EU do everything for us, laws, taxes the lot, that way we the taxpayers may get value for money, and rid of a bunch of nondescripts who just think of themselves and do not do what is best for the country.
We could even bulldoze the houses of parliament and build social housing in the centre of London, it would save millions on repairs.
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
All bar 7 Labour MP's (+ the 4 independent Labour) have confirmed they will vote against May's deal. Out of these 11 only 1 has said she will vote for it - go on have a guess which constituency she represents....
https://evolvepolitics.com/here-are-the-12-labour-mps-who-are-considering-voting-for-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/
What could be on the ballot paper in a second EU referendum:
Which terms do you want the United Kingdom to adopt for its future relationship with the European Union?
1. Current terms – Remaining in the EU on current terms
2. The government’s terms – Accepting the terms that have been negotiated
3. No-deal terms – Leaving the EU on World Trade Organisation terms
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
All bar 7 Labour MP's (+ the 4 independent Labour) have confirmed they will vote against May's deal. Out of these 11 only 1 has said she will vote for it - go on have a guess which constituency she represents....
https://evolvepolitics.com/here-are-the-12-labour-mps-who-are-considering-voting-for-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/
Wilts, as a political expert (not being funny by the way) can you tell me how many of the Labour MP's who are going to vote against Mays proposed deal are from a constituency which voted to leave.
Also, how many are there who are actually going to vote against it please.
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
All bar 7 Labour MP's (+ the 4 independent Labour) have confirmed they will vote against May's deal. Out of these 11 only 1 has said she will vote for it - go on have a guess which constituency she represents....
https://evolvepolitics.com/here-are-the-12-labour-mps-who-are-considering-voting-for-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/
Wilts, as a political expert (not being funny by the way) can you tell me how many of the Labour MP's who are going to vote against Mays proposed deal are from a constituency which voted to leave.
Also, how many are there who are actually going to vote against it please.
Glynn, eye get rid of them too, give everything to the EU, we pay them enough, let them look after us.
BST
You can read a bit more about "Norway Plus" here;
http://betterbrexit.org.uk/
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the explanation given, but it is under active consideration by key players under the radar.
The important starting point is who holds sway in the Tory party after Treeza's exit?
The landscape of the possible changes on the other side of her departure. Gove, Johnson and Rees Smug have soiled themselves with large swathes of the party.
So who will hold power in the Tory government short of a GE?
They will not be constrained by red lines set out by others.
I can't see any reason that this headless chicken dance will not continue for some time with desperate scrambles/shambles for extensions, but to do what, repeat play? my prediction some time ago was that the government would fail to get agreement May would be forced to resign which would be the trigger for a general election and that if Corbyn did not change to support a peoples vote he would have to go too.BST
You can read a bit more about "Norway Plus" here;
http://betterbrexit.org.uk/
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the explanation given, but it is under active consideration by key players under the radar.
The important starting point is who holds sway in the Tory party after Treeza's exit?
The landscape of the possible changes on the other side of her departure. Gove, Johnson and Rees Smug have soiled themselves with large swathes of the party.
So who will hold power in the Tory government short of a GE?
They will not be constrained by red lines set out by others.
No, the important starting point is if this option won't get through Parliament it's just as much a dead duck as the current deal.
Glyn,
The parliamentary numbers are completely different to May's deal.
The SNP are likely to support it, as are other minority groups. Significant numbers of Labour and Tory MP's are likely to do so as well.
The government will not have the HoC votes to carry ANY decision from their own party. The only prospect of a HoC approval is via cross party support.
It very much matters who the next head of government is......the individual needs to be able to secure the numbers to get a resolution through!
But that would leave you and Tony Blair, Lord Kinnock of Brussels, Lord Mandelson with no vote, you know what about the Ever Closer Union option? Single currency, no borders, more billions in British financial contributions, after all until the Peoples Vote in 2016 that is what you were in favour of no? How many pro EU leaders of any EU country have said they wanted Britain to stay in EU with no change, come on Professor Stubbs name them
go for a second referendum.
f**k it. Put Norway+ on the ballot too and make it a 3-round/4-choice vote.
Yargo's been kidnapped and replaced by the Daily Express "Write a random word salad headline" bot.
Glyn,
The parliamentary numbers are completely different to May's deal.
The SNP are likely to support it, as are other minority groups. Significant numbers of Labour and Tory MP's are likely to do so as well.
The government will not have the HoC votes to carry ANY decision from their own party. The only prospect of a HoC approval is via cross party support.
It very much matters who the next head of government is......the individual needs to be able to secure the numbers to get a resolution through!
I don't know where you get the idea of the SNP supporting any version of something they've been completely against all the way from the beginning.
The SNP will back whatever they think will get them most support for a run at an independence referendum. I've lived in Scotland in SNP heartland and I know exactly what they're like. Do as I say not as I do.
True TRB, but I don't think that they, zealots that they are, would want a situation where the economy of by far their strongest trading partner was crippled.
Might have been different if Salmons was still at the helm and being funded by the Kremlin.
The SNP will back whatever they think will get them most support for a run at an independence referendum. I've lived in Scotland in SNP heartland and I know exactly what they're like. Do as I say not as I do.
Paradoxically, leaving without a deal would probably strengthen their hand in trying to get IndyRef2.
True TRB, but I don't think that they, zealots that they are, would want a situation where the economy of by far their strongest trading partner was crippled.
Might have been different if Salmons was still at the helm and being funded by the Kremlin.
I would have thought the UK and in particular the Scottish economy going into recession would be grist to the IndyRef mill.
This thread is going to be longer than the actual Brexit bill itself.
This thread is going to be longer than the actual Brexit bill itself.
Well, there's more intelligent thought and comment in this thread than anything that's dribbled out of May's gob, this past two years. She's currently insisting that it's her deal or No Deal, which is the most boneheadedly stupid bullshit. It doesn't even work as a threat, because there's not a single MP who believes she could take us out with No Deal even if she wanted to.
This thread is going to be longer than the actual Brexit bill itself.
Well, there's more intelligent thought and comment in this thread than anything that's dribbled out of May's gob, this past two years. She's currently insisting that it's her deal or No Deal, which is the most boneheadedly stupid bullshit. It doesn't even work as a threat, because there's not a single MP who believes she could take us out with No Deal even if she wanted to.
I don’t know if this has been mentioned on here before because I only read the odd page but...
Is it possible that self admitted remainder Mrs May has put together a deal that she knows won’t get passed by parliament to force a second referendum? I’m not usually a big conspirory theorist but could it be possible?
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
WTF is that all about?
Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
All bar 7 Labour MP's (+ the 4 independent Labour) have confirmed they will vote against May's deal. Out of these 11 only 1 has said she will vote for it - go on have a guess which constituency she represents....
https://evolvepolitics.com/here-are-the-12-labour-mps-who-are-considering-voting-for-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/
Wilts, as a political expert (not being funny by the way) can you tell me how many of the Labour MP's who are going to vote against Mays proposed deal are from a constituency which voted to leave.
Also, how many are there who are actually going to vote against it please.
You're not still clinging to this ridiculous notion that MPs should vote the way their constituency voted in the referendum are you? That would mean May should vote against her own deal!!
This thread is going to be longer than the actual Brexit bill itself.
Well, there's more intelligent thought and comment in this thread than anything that's dribbled out of May's gob, this past two years. She's currently insisting that it's her deal or No Deal, which is the most boneheadedly stupid bullshit. It doesn't even work as a threat, because there's not a single MP who believes she could take us out with No Deal even if she wanted to.
I don’t know if this has been mentioned on here before because I only read the odd page but...
Is it possible that self admitted remainder Mrs May has put together a deal that she knows won’t get passed by parliament to force a second referendum? I’m not usually a big conspirory theorist but could it be possible?
Looking back over this process from where Cameron made that fateful decision to have a vote is there anyone here that can say something positive about how this government has performed in any way at all, never mind just brexit is there anything at all that they have done that the majority would say ''well done guys, you got it right'' ?.
Yargo's been kidnapped and replaced by the Daily Express "Write a random word salad headline" bot.Ah you Blairites against the Express now?
You've got that the wrong way round Wilts.
100 Lab and 75 Con were the number of seats estimated to have vote Remain, not Leave.
If she loses the vote in Parliament badly enough to trigger a move towards a referendum, she's gone that same night. And she goes down as the most inept PM in 200 years. No politician wants that epitaph. Even if she was talented enough to pull the sort of stunt you suggest (which she isn't, not by a million miles) she's too much pride to sacrifice her reputation like that.
Here's a very intelligent guys take on Brexit. Leave voters would do well to view it....thanks NNK,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYonSZ8s3_o
This thread is going to be longer than the actual Brexit bill itself.
Well, there's more intelligent thought and comment in this thread than anything that's dribbled out of May's gob, this past two years. She's currently insisting that it's her deal or No Deal, which is the most boneheadedly stupid bullshit. It doesn't even work as a threat, because there's not a single MP who believes she could take us out with No Deal even if she wanted to.
I don’t know if this has been mentioned on here before because I only read the odd page but...
Is it possible that self admitted remainder Mrs May has put together a deal that she knows won’t get passed by parliament to force a second referendum? I’m not usually a big conspirory theorist but could it be possible?
Aye, aye.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46435128
Beginning of a rapid end for May.
Be interesting when Parliament votes on this.
Presumably the entire Opposition plus 40-50 Hard Brexit Tory MPs will vote to to accuse the Govt of contempt. I'm struggling to think of any PM ever surviving losing a vote like this. It would be an utter humiliation.
But then again, May has demonstrated for the past two years that she has no understanding of the concept of public humiliation so who knows? We're off the edge of the cliff and the normal rules no longer seem to apply.
What are the consequences legally of doing what May has done here? is it 'just' being booted out of the House etc or are there more serious potential outcomes for her?
That’s what I thought, to go to this degree to try and conceal what is contained in the document it must be pretty damning.
RedJ
As far as I can see, that's not been said officially. It's Rees-Mogg who is claiming they have said that, so forgive me if I take it with a skip full of salt.
I'll have a look Wilts. If the DUP forgive May after this they are less Old Testament than I thought.It's really concerning to me how few Brexit voters ever seem to address Banks and his shenanigans, and the ever-deepening level of corruption surrounding him. It's us liberal leftie elite-loving Remainiacs who are the traitors for arguing the toss about Brexit on a football forum, but the guy who pumped Russian money directly into the Brexit campaign with his offshore millions and his tax-dodging empire? There's someone with Britain's best interests at heart.
Meanwhile, in the ongoing saga of the man who syphoned Kremlin money into the Leave campaign...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46460194
I HATE Politicians and here is why ....
May has just kicked off the debate trying to sell her Deal / Agreement
She said "lets look how we got here - and mentioned the 1975 Referendum saying the People voted to stay in at that point but even then she said 33% of those voting wanted to leave " She failed to say of course that 66% or so voted to Remain a 33% Majority !!!
She then leapt to 2016 where she then said " In the biggest Democratic Vote ever held over 17.4 Million said they wanted to leave" She failed to say that was 51% or a bit more whereas nearly 49% voted to Remain.
So she made a right meal of saying 33 % the first time round wanted to Leave whereas 49% in 2016 wanted to stay which she totally lefy out of her speech
So nearly 50% more voted to Remain the second time than the 33% that she originally highlighted from 1975 and she simply did not mention that / them.
I hate them all with a passion but especially Mrs One Liner
Strong and Stable Government (repeat ad nauseum then lose your Majority)
We must respect the will / vote of the British people (repeat ad nauseum and hope something turns up)
PLANK
Sweet f**king Jesus.
Just when you thought May couldn't be humiliated any further...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-08/theresa-may-to-announce-delay-to-brexit-vote-sunday-times?srnd=premium-europe
So let's get this right.
Her team has spent two years negotiating this deal.
She's signed off on it.
The EU has put it to the other 27 Govts, all of whom have signed off on it.
May has spent the past two weeks telling us it's the best deal in the interests of the country.
Parliament has spent the last week debating it.
Now the vote on it this Tuesday is going to be cancelled and May is going back to Brussels to ask for...a new deal.
What a God Almighty clusterf**k.
Does anyone realise how humiliated & incompetent this entire process is making us look to the rest of the world?
I'm going to deliver a Strong and Stable Goverment AND what's more I WILL deliver on the Vote of the British people to leave the EU
BUT Utterly, utterly f**king useless woman. Just GO for God's sake - sums her up better
I hope that aide got a promotion for their far-sightedness. I have never seen a major politician so inept at being publicly questioned. As you say Wolf, she just repeats the same practiced answer over and over and over again. It is cringingly embarrassing to watch.
Hound
Have you not seen May in action?
She doesn't do that. She just repeats the same, rehearsed line to every question. It's weird and really embarrassing to watch. That's why they call her MayBot, because she sounds like a pre-programmed doll.
A brilliant parody but I don't think that she has a good or sensible side.She's an enigma, not popular with the masses nor liked her own party, has few wins and comes across as though she's forgotten what happened yesterday, but she's the pm, for now anyway.
We currently have a non functioning government, we are the laughing stock of the World, a General Elrction must be called now, too much public money has been wasted by these inepts to keep them clinging on to power, fixed term parliaments have been a disaster, another Tory ploy to keep them in power!!So how would a general election help?!
We currently have a non functioning government, we are the laughing stock of the World, a General Elrction must be called now, too much public money has been wasted by these inepts to keep them clinging on to power, fixed term parliaments have been a disaster, another Tory ploy to keep them in power!!So how would a general election help?!
Christ can you imagine Corbyn and Abbott in charge 🤣🤣.
We would definitely be a laughing stock.
We would go from a government not knowing what day it is, to a government not knowing what year it is !
Hound.
I think the phrase these days is Chill Bro.
Sad days when the DRFC forum would vote for a Rotherham fan over the current government.
Someone made an interesting vote point on twitter; Pro-Brexit Tories pushed for a 2nd vote on their leader to try and out her just 2 years after voting her in, yet they dismiss the idea of a 2nd referendum after 2 years as un-democratic? :pinch: :facepalm:
Did anyone hear the German and Polish politician on Radio 4 this morning?
When asked the German said there was no possibility of renegotiation as we had got a very good deal out of the EU. However when the Polish gentleman was asked the same question, he was very strongly of the opinion that in the interests of his country and citizens living in the UK that ANY DEAL with us would be preferable to no deal. Now this is directly the opposite of the line we are being fed by TM. So does this show who has the whip hand in the EU?
Not that anyone could call may or the tories hypoctitical?
Theresa May has attacked one of her predecessors - accusing Tony Blair of "undermining" the Brexit talks by calling for another referendum.''
Absolutely stunned when I heard this on the news. What about John Major doing the same or 100+ of her party undermining her. May is truly locked in another world.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46582705
Here you go guys pick the bones out of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9cLwoTkWes
But the facts still remain don’t they?
Boris will ask for another nose extension while Mogg is getting some personality fillers.But the facts still remain don’t they?
The facts are that it is still a mess . On what possible grounds could they ask for an extension beyond March 29th.
" Can we leave later please because we need to make sure that we have time to offer inducements to Labour MPs in " leave " constituencies so that they will vote for the May deal ? "
Yes the endless pot of inducement monies is out again - add the above to the DUP , Nissan ' deals'.
If they are short of a bob or two - they can always speak to that nice man Arron Banks .
But the facts still remain don’t they?
But the facts still remain don’t they?
Facts?
Right. Here's a take on his "facts".
He quotes a think tank who said the MAXIMUM economic loss for the UK due to Brexit would be 1% of GDP.
Funny that. We've already lost 2.3% compared to the performance of comparable countries since the vote.
So I kinda lost interest at that point.
This video has been doing the rounds for 2 years. Posted by folk like Sproty, who hear what they want to hear in it, so assume it's all correct.
You posted that video Sproty. You are one of the many people who posted that very deceptive video. People like you have been posting nonsense like that for two years.b
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1081462/brexit-news-latest-deal-vote-EU-UK-no-deal-theresa-may/amp Maybe gives us scope to get a better end result
More Project “Fact”!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/cff043f24efb347df45bf9775df7ba69.jpg)
BFYP
Presumably Nissan are also in on the Project Fear con then, given that their press release today said:
“The continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.”
The shit just gets deeper...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/19/brexit-uk-will-apply-food-tariffs-in-case-of-no-deal-michael-gove-says
No BB. That's only a prediction by people who think about the likely consequences.None of them have chucked themselves off North bridge because, based on fact it wouldn't produce anything positive. The consequenses of Brexit is based on opinion, not fact.
But what do they know? How many of them have ever chucked themselves off the North Bridge?
Who's to say the Heavenly Host wouldn't swoop down and save you?
No BB. That's only a prediction by people who think about the likely consequences.None of them have chucked themselves off North bridge because, based on fact it wouldn't produce anything positive. The consequenses of Brexit is based on opinion, not fact.
But what do they know? How many of them have ever chucked themselves off the North Bridge?
Who's to say the Heavenly Host wouldn't swoop down and save you?
No BB. That's only a prediction by people who think about the likely consequences.None of them have chucked themselves off North bridge because, based on fact it wouldn't produce anything positive. The consequenses of Brexit is based on opinion, not fact.
But what do they know? How many of them have ever chucked themselves off the North Bridge?
Who's to say the Heavenly Host wouldn't swoop down and save you?
No BB. That's only a prediction by people who think about the likely consequences.None of them have chucked themselves off North bridge because, based on fact it wouldn't produce anything positive. The consequenses of Brexit is based on opinion, not fact.
But what do they know? How many of them have ever chucked themselves off the North Bridge?
Who's to say the Heavenly Host wouldn't swoop down and save you?
So, the companies who say they have have moved all or part of their business from the UK to the EU because of Brexit is not based on fact, is not negative and that they are simply lying?
No BB. That's only a prediction by people who think about the likely consequences.None of them have chucked themselves off North bridge because, based on fact it wouldn't produce anything positive. The consequenses of Brexit is based on opinion, not fact.
But what do they know? How many of them have ever chucked themselves off the North Bridge?
Who's to say the Heavenly Host wouldn't swoop down and save you?
How do YOU know nothing positive would come from it? They might learn to levitate. That would be marvellous.
Similarly, we've heard today that leaving the EU means our current Free Trade Agreements with Japan, Canada and Turkey will lapse, making our ports and exports with them more expensive and more bureaucratic. But we ARE going to have FTAs with the Faroe Islands and Palestine and you can't prove that our trade with them won't explode and make up what we are going to lose from the others.
Because, as you've been consistently telling us for the past 2 years, you can't predict the future.
Just in: Dyson's move offshore to leave a vacuum in UK manufacturing.