Allardyce

[Orlandokarla]

Managers like Big Sam would never get the big PL  jobs as they are seen as unfashionable.

Moyes was fashionable? Hodgson was fashionable?

Based on recent tournament performances England are the equivalent of a failing club.

So were Man City/Chelsea at one time. Like England, all they had going for them was their bank account. The point is, England can afford better than Sam Allardyce.

Can you suggest a better alternative? In particular, a better English alternative?

Better is only relevant if they'd be interested. There's little point in listing the God-knows-how-many managers in world football clearly more qualified and capable than Allardyce.
We both know that if there were any decent English managers, then Sam wouldn't have gotten within a million miles of the job.

Tbh I think the only side he has never over achieved is Newcastle. For the teams he's managed he always hits is targets and more.

Really? Let's take a look shall we?
Limerick - Irish title.
Blackpool - sacked.
Notts Co - 3rd div title.
Bolton - Playoff winners, qualified for UEFA cup.
Newcastle - Sacked.
Blackburn - Sacked (yes, sacked).
West Ham - Contract not renewed after 2 mid-table finishes, the performance not meeting the expectations of the board. Sacked, as far as I'm concerned.
Sunderland - Good short-term job done there avoiding relegation, but to be fair, he had 30/38 games...

And that's it; the resume of the England manager. hardly inspiring, is it?

What he did at Bolton was on par with winning the league.

No, what Ranieri did with Leicester was amazing. Bolton merely punched above their weight and overachieved for a brief period.

Is he a great manager who's won top leagues? No
 But we have had managers who have and they did well,not.

Agreed, but wouldn't you want a great manager? Why are you content with somebody whom, by your own admission, is not a great manager?
True, but surely past performance is the best indicator of future performance? Surely you'd want to employ somebody with a track record of success, as opposed to failure?
His only meaningful, positive, top flight experience is an overachieving period with Bolton, and keeping Sunderland up. Again, he did have 30 games at Sunderland. Elsewhere, he has a record of serial underachievement, failing to meet expectations, and sackings after a couple of seasons of mediocrity.

Has he got a track record of getting the very best oit of players? Yes.

2/5, and one of those was 'miraculously' keeping Sunderland up with 30 games to go. Nobody's relegated by the end of the first week in October. Everything clicked for him at Bolton, but I don't think he's achieved anything of note since.

He's got a knack of getting 11 players to give that extra 10%. If he can continue to do that he may just do a decent job.

Has he? he's 2/5 at best. It was perhaps in evidence at Bolton and Sunderland, but where was the fabled 'extra 10%' at Newcastle, Blackburn, and West Ham? He underachieved at all 3, which is hardly the sign of somebody who gets the best out of his players.

I'm sorry, but the facts just don't support this commonly held delusion that he's some kind of overachieving, inspired man-manager, who can get the best out of players.

[Red wizard]

Cheers Rigo. Well put and how I see it. Each to there own and all that. I just think he will surprise a lot of fans. Lets find a style, system we are good at and suits the players we have. We have some good players who all play for oir top clubs. Some have even excelled in ome of the top leagues in the world. We should be doing better. Big Sam now has a great opportunity to really show what he's got. That's if he as. Lol.

[DevilMayCry]

I don't see Allardyce as the best choice. He was manager at only small teams, and I don't think he has the winning mentality. But time will tell of he was a good or a bad decisions.

Romania chosed Daum as manager, he managed to win titles, but he never managed a national team. As I said about Allardyce, time will tell.

An exception was with Ranieri...Greece played very bad with him and after he was sacked, and now he is the winner of Premier League...Some managers are not meant to manage national teams.

[Nudga]

Managers like Big Sam would never get the big PL  jobs as they are seen as unfashionable.

Moyes was fashionable? Hodgson was fashionable?

Based on recent tournament performances England are the equivalent of a failing club.

So were Man City/Chelsea at one time. Like England, all they had going for them was their bank account. The point is, England can afford better than Sam Allardyce.

Can you suggest a better alternative? In particular, a better English alternative?

Better is only relevant if they'd be interested. There's little point in listing the God-knows-how-many managers in world football clearly more qualified and capable than Allardyce.
We both know that if there were any decent English managers, then Sam wouldn't have gotten within a million miles of the job.

Tbh I think the only side he has never over achieved is Newcastle. For the teams he's managed he always hits is targets and more.

Really? Let's take a look shall we?
Limerick - Irish title.
Blackpool - sacked.
Notts Co - 3rd div title.
Bolton - Playoff winners, qualified for UEFA cup.
Newcastle - Sacked.
Blackburn - Sacked (yes, sacked).
West Ham - Contract not renewed after 2 mid-table finishes, the performance not meeting the expectations of the board. Sacked, as far as I'm concerned.
Sunderland - Good short-term job done there avoiding relegation, but to be fair, he had 30/38 games...

And that's it; the resume of the England manager. hardly inspiring, is it?

What he did at Bolton was on par with winning the league.

No, what Ranieri did with Leicester was amazing. Bolton merely punched above their weight and overachieved for a brief period.

Is he a great manager who's won top leagues? No
 But we have had managers who have and they did well,not.

Agreed, but wouldn't you want a great manager? Why are you content with somebody whom, by your own admission, is not a great manager?
True, but surely past performance is the best indicator of future performance? Surely you'd want to employ somebody with a track record of success, as opposed to failure?
His only meaningful, positive, top flight experience is an overachieving period with Bolton, and keeping Sunderland up. Again, he did have 30 games at Sunderland. Elsewhere, he has a record of serial underachievement, failing to meet expectations, and sackings after a couple of seasons of mediocrity.

Has he got a track record of getting the very best oit of players? Yes.

2/5, and one of those was 'miraculously' keeping Sunderland up with 30 games to go. Nobody's relegated by the end of the first week in October. Everything clicked for him at Bolton, but I don't think he's achieved anything of note since.

He's got a knack of getting 11 players to give that extra 10%. If he can continue to do that he may just do a decent job.

Has he? he's 2/5 at best. It was perhaps in evidence at Bolton and Sunderland, but where was the fabled 'extra 10%' at Newcastle, Blackburn, and West Ham? He underachieved at all 3, which is hardly the sign of somebody who gets the best out of his players.

I'm sorry, but the facts just don't support this commonly held delusion that he's some kind of overachieving, inspired man-manager, who can get the best out of players.

I would say that Moyes was fashionable as Fergie made him fashionable. It wasn't exactly a secret that the job was his once SAF retired. It was thought that Moyes was a carbon copy of SAF.

Hodgson had managed Inter Milan and Switzerland before Liverpool so he'd already had a couple of big jobs. His stock rose further by guiding Fulham to the UEFA cup final.
I do agree that these two certainly aren't in the same bracket as Guardiola or Mourinho in the fashion stakes but there you go.

[DevilMayCry]

The Squawka lads put Big Sam in charge of England NT in Football Manager 2016

http://www.squawka.com/news/football-manager-stories-is-sam-allardyce-the-manager-to-finally-lead-england-to-glory/730441#Qvydsq4DkkYpIYkX.99

[Orlandokarla]

Wow, inferred to as cynical by by the most emotionally detached person on the board. 
I'm not the type to complain about managerial appointments, TBF, and Dickov was the only one that I was unenthusiastic about, due to his (even then) apparent lack of relevant experience and proven ability.
Perhaps you’re just easily impressed, or so afraid of the prospect of Gareth Southgate/Stuart Pearce/some other nodding dog, that even Allardyce looks an attractive prospect?

Granted, it IS all about perspective, and whether or not you’re trying to look at his record objectively, or merely attempting to justify an opinion. I’ve no axe to grind; I just don’t see an England manager in his record.

Remember, we’re looking at the resume of the England manager, not a struggling/middling PL club. I’m not arguing that he’s a poor manager, or that West Ham, Blackburn etc shouldn’t have taken a chance with him, but rather that he is clearly not a great manager by any stretch, and that England should be aiming a hell of a lot higher.

I mention Blackpool and Notts Co. for the sake of completeness. Neither of those experiences are especially relevant to the England job.

Bolton – No arguments; everything clicked for him there, and he clearly did a very good job. He has made his career on the back of it. England manager in the making? At this point perhaps, IF he had pushed on, which he hasn’t.

Newcastle – Talk about playing with stats to make a point…
It takes less stat manipulation to show that he was brought in to move the club forward, and had a worse win percentage than the previous SIX permanent, non-caretaker managers. You have to go back to Ossie Ardiles to find a more incompetent performance. The three subsequent managers, Keegan, Kinnear and Shearer, had what, maybe 50 games between them? It’s as logical to suggest that Allardyce sent the club in a spiral, than it is to suggest that the poor performance of the next 3 briefly-retained managers show that he was overachieving. He left it worse than he found it, and it took a long time to recover. Either way, HIS performance, never mind those who came prior or since, was only good enough to get him fired. Anything there to enhance his prospects as future England manager? No.

Blackburn – Kept them up? Mid-table finish? Sacked? Hardly the performance of an England prospect.

West Ham – Play off promotion from the Championship with a PL squad of players. Finished mid-table in PL the following season… hardly ground-braking is it? Deemed not good enough by both the board and the fans.

Again, a good job done in a limited time at Sunderland. To say he won everyone’s respect by keeping up a team after 3 points in 8 games smacks of hyperbole. Good job, yes. Great escape, it wasn’t.

Are you his agent? Bolton aside, all you've listed are reasons/excuses as to why he failed at a series of clubs, Sunderland excepted. He has talent and has had some very modest success, which is why he has been given chance after chance.

I appreciate you’re playing Devil’s advocate here, and are more than capable of having an argument with a brick wall, but seriously, spin aside, what do you see in his (at best) very mixed resume, that suggests he’d be a capable England manager, or as manager of an elite club? Would YOU sign him up for a club with a large budget and serious top 4 aspirations?
No you wouldn’t, and neither would anybody else. That’s why he was at Sunderland, rather than Liverpool/Tottenham.

Bolton - Took over a team struggling in the second tier, but led them to both domestic cup semi-finals and the play-offs within months of arriving. Won promotion (via the play-offs) a year later, then established them as a force to be reckoned with in the Premier League. Achievements include: Four successive top eight finishes in the PL, reaching the League Cup Final, taking the club into Europe for the first time in their history.

I thought I’d highlight this, since it’s potentially the only relevant part to the discussion. I’d argue that his failures and mixed fortunes at other clubs since have not enhanced his reputation at all.
Even disregarding everything since, (which I believe is in his favour), is that, his pinnacle of achievement which occurred nigh on a decade ago, reason enough to earn him the England job?
 
If that’s enough for you, fair enough. Some of us expect much, much better.

[Chris Black come back]

Alf Ramsey had only ever managed one club prior to England, unfashionable Ipswich Town and aside from one single season in the top flight, his management career prior to England was in the third and second tiers.

So for perspective, the most successful ever England manager had only had one season of experience in the top flight before he got the job.

[swintonrover]

Club success is a poor barometer to measure international managers by.
Capello won the league in 9/16 seasons, managing AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid. For England? Dog piss.
Joachim Low: won 1 German Cup (in 1997) and an Austrian Bundesliga (in 2002). World Cup Winner.
Vincente Del Bosque is the only manager ever to have won the Champions League and the World Cup. Give Allardyce a chance.

[HomerJSimpson]

I think this is a great appointment. Too often the phrase 'lacked passion' is banded about but with Big Sam that will not be the case. He commands respect and for me the passion and respect has been missing in the past. Always seemed that there was some player power. Can't imagine many survivors if they tried it with him.

He has wanted the job for so long now that I think the FA had no choice because since saying to him we have hired turd after turd after turd.

Can't wait to see how he shapes the team.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Club success is a poor barometer to measure international managers by.
Capello won the league in 9/16 seasons, managing AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid. For England? Dog piss.
Joachim Low: won 1 German Cup (in 1997) and an Austrian Bundesliga (in 2002). World Cup Winner.
Vincente Del Bosque is the only manager ever to have won the Champions League and the World Cup. Give Allardyce a chance.

Swinton

Capello had, I believe, the best win ratio of any England manager since Ramsey. He inherited a side that McLaren had playing dogshite and got them playing a few notches better than dogshite.

We're on the same treadmill again though. Obsessing about the manager. It's nothing to do with the manager. It's everything to do with a system that produces generation after generation of really average players and convinces the punters that they are world-beaters.

You could have Emperor Augustus in charge and we'll still be shite until we start producing genuinely world-leading players. Instead of producing Raheem Stirling and convincing someone to cough up the ninth largest transfer fee in world history for him. 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Alf Ramsey had only ever managed one club prior to England, unfashionable Ipswich Town and aside from one single season in the top flight, his management career prior to England was in the third and second tiers.

So for perspective, the most successful ever England manager had only had one season of experience in the top flight before he got the job.

You seem to have left out the detail of how he did in that single season in the top flight with unfashionable Ipswich...

[The Red Baron]

Club success is a poor barometer to measure international managers by.
Capello won the league in 9/16 seasons, managing AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid. For England? Dog piss.
Joachim Low: won 1 German Cup (in 1997) and an Austrian Bundesliga (in 2002). World Cup Winner.
Vincente Del Bosque is the only manager ever to have won the Champions League and the World Cup. Give Allardyce a chance.

Swinton

Capello had, I believe, the best win ratio of any England manager since Ramsey. He inherited a side that McLaren had playing dogshite and got them playing a few notches better than dogshite.

We're on the same treadmill again though. Obsessing about the manager. It's nothing to do with the manager. It's everything to do with a system that produces generation after generation of really average players and convinces the punters that they are world-beaters.

You could have Emperor Augustus in charge and we'll still be shite until we start producing genuinely world-leading players. Instead of producing Raheem Stirling and convincing someone to cough up the ninth largest transfer fee in world history for him. 

BST

I think you're missing the point. The England team either competes in international football or it doesn't. If we followed your logic we would withdraw from international competition until we had a group of players who were ready to put on a level of performance at a major tournament that wouldn't reduce England to a laughing stock.

Unless we follow that logic, the best we can do is appoint a manager who can get the most out of what he's got. Allardyce has a reputation for doing that. I'm not sure Capello did, and let's face it the showing in the 2010 WC was as abject as anything that England produced under Hodgson.

Less than a month ago I'd have been happy to give you 5-1 against England even qualifying for the 2018 WC. Now I'm confident we'll qualify and I also believe we have a manager who won't pick players on reputations built long in the past  (qv Raheem Sterling, Jack Wilshere etc) and will play to the strengths we have at the time.

Will Allardyce win a major trophy? Probably not. Will he play stylish football? Probably not also. Will he stop England being a laughing stock? I think there's a good chance. Our stock has fallen so far that I'm prepared to take that.

[Draytonian III]

Good luck to him, is there anybody who should have got the job before him and why  ?

[Sammy Chung was King]

The 'big name' route has been tried=failed, the foreign route tried= failed, now they go down the unknown route. Candidates very thin on the ground who are english and competent, steve bruce was his competitor!.
As much as i admired bruce, the player, as a manager very up and down. Allardyce has come up through the route, most of us moan never happens, starting in the lower leagues and working his way up.

Though i understand a lot being underwhelmed, at the appointment, if he had to be english, and currently working, he was the only choice.
You have to remember the state of some of the sides he has taken on, very few were capable of winning leagues and fa cups. Usually a smaller side only wins the fa cup if most of the bigger teams have had a bad year, or european commitments have led to weakened sides.
He has worked from rock bottom, read his book, interesting read.

[Jonathan]

Club success is a poor barometer to measure international managers by.
Capello won the league in 9/16 seasons, managing AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid. For England? Dog piss.
Joachim Low: won 1 German Cup (in 1997) and an Austrian Bundesliga (in 2002). World Cup Winner.
Vincente Del Bosque is the only manager ever to have won the Champions League and the World Cup. Give Allardyce a chance.

Swinton

Capello had, I believe, the best win ratio of any England manager since Ramsey. He inherited a side that McLaren had playing dogshite and got them playing a few notches better than dogshite.

We're on the same treadmill again though. Obsessing about the manager. It's nothing to do with the manager. It's everything to do with a system that produces generation after generation of really average players and convinces the punters that they are world-beaters.

You could have Emperor Augustus in charge and we'll still be shite until we start producing genuinely world-leading players. Instead of producing Raheem Stirling and convincing someone to cough up the ninth largest transfer fee in world history for him. 

BST

I think you're missing the point. The England team either competes in international football or it doesn't. If we followed your logic we would withdraw from international competition until we had a group of players who were ready to put on a level of performance at a major tournament that wouldn't reduce England to a laughing stock.

Unless we follow that logic, the best we can do is appoint a manager who can get the most out of what he's got. Allardyce has a reputation for doing that. I'm not sure Capello did, and let's face it the showing in the 2010 WC was as abject as anything that England produced under Hodgson.

Less than a month ago I'd have been happy to give you 5-1 against England even qualifying for the 2018 WC. Now I'm confident we'll qualify and I also believe we have a manager who won't pick players on reputations built long in the past  (qv Raheem Sterling, Jack Wilshere etc) and will play to the strengths we have at the time.

Will Allardyce win a major trophy? Probably not. Will he play stylish football? Probably not also. Will he stop England being a laughing stock? I think there's a good chance. Our stock has fallen so far that I'm prepared to take that.

Very well put.

[DevilMayCry]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYQXVibQ71E" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYQXVibQ71E</a>

[graingrover]

A good bloke , decent manager ... but not much to pick from to win owt ever.So no change in new job really then !

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually TRB, you have misunderstood the point of my post. The point was that it really doesn't matter what manager we have, unless and until we produce decent players. I don't expect Allardyce to do significantly better or worse than Hodgson, Capello or McLaren. We'll qualify for tournaments (which, admittedly, will be better than McLaren) but that will be that.

Because it's not about the manager.

[Campsall rover]

Actually TRB, you have misunderstood the point of my post. The point was that it really doesn't matter what manager we have, unless and until we produce decent players. I don't expect Allardyce to do significantly better or worse than Hodgson, Capello or McLaren. We'll qualify for tournaments (which, admittedly, will be better than McLaren) but that will be that.

Because it's not about the manager.

Disagree with you on this one BST.
I think we have a talented bunch of players at present, maybe not world class such as Messi, Ronaldo & Bale.
They need organising and need to start believing in themselves. Go out and play with no fear.
I beleive big Sam is the right man, the only man at this time who will get the best out of our best players. Time will tell of course.

[The Red Baron]

Actually TRB, you have misunderstood the point of my post. The point was that it really doesn't matter what manager we have, unless and until we produce decent players. I don't expect Allardyce to do significantly better or worse than Hodgson, Capello or McLaren. We'll qualify for tournaments (which, admittedly, will be better than McLaren) but that will be that.

Because it's not about the manager.

Do Wales produce better players than England? Bale and Ramsey would have walked into the England team. Allen maybe. That's about it. Yet they showed 500% more guts, team spirit and willingness to battle than England did. The same point could be made even more strongly about Iceland, but Wales are important because their players come through the same system as England's.

The manager DOES make a difference. Allardyce has the potential to be our Coleman. I'm not saying we'll win the World Cup, but there's more chance that in 2018 we'll be able to express pride rather than shame about our national team.

[Wild Rover]

Sam was appointed because , when asked, former club managers and some current club managers all said "Sams the man".
His ways are far more intricate than appear at first glance. his backroom staff at Bolton are mostly at Manchester City now apparently, those not seem to be being recruited to his set up with england, his football style may appear "Old fashioned" to some, but you can only play the players the clubs have.
Personally i think he will win a trophy with england. Its about getting the current players of England to perform, about man management (which in his own words is his strongest point).
The man will do good things i reckon.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

He said something in his interview yesterday which sounded just like a line Mike Bassett would come out with.

I wish him well. He hasn't got much to beat.

[NickDRFC]

TRB - agree with the crux of what you're saying, but Ashley Williams would also stroll into the England team.

[Jonathan]

TRB - agree with the crux of what you're saying, but Ashley Williams would also stroll into the England team.

Not least because he's English!

[Sammy Chung was King]

Until young players are learnt to think about the game, and are learned the tactical side of it, they will always develop into adult players, who are behind they're foreign counterparts, that is why we get beat so often.
On the manager, he hasn't waited all this time, to let players who don't want to put effort in, spoil his period in charge. I expect one or two dropping out of the squad through attitude problems, there's no way Allardyce will accept it, unlike others before.

[Nudga]

Taught!

[Sammy Chung was King]

Taught!

Is that all you have to say on what i have written?, f..king grammar. Sorry nudga, just in a maungy mood tonight.

[RoversAlias]

You're not in a good mood at all tonight Sammy, are you? 

[Sammy Chung was King]

You're not in a good mood at all tonight Sammy, are you? 

No, as my dad used to say ''Have you seen you're a..e or summat''?!. I wonder if there will be a fair few closed door friendlies nearer the start of the season?, or they won't risk it and just work hard in training. It's put the manager in a spot, all these injuries.

[Nudga]

Taught!

Is that all you have to say on what i have written?, f..king grammar. Sorry nudga, just in a maungy mood tonight.

Read it back to yourself and see if it sounds right to you.
For me, rightly or wrongly, kind of dilutes the authors point and I lose the patience to carry on reading.
This is probably the Kitsonish side of my nature coming out so just ignore me.