Billy Whitehouse

[wing commander]

    I see he has been released by Leeds United...I wondered if we had missed a trick with this lad and his future potential when Leeds jumped in and signed him after we transfer listed him,after all he was a young lad still learning...As it turns out we probably got it right as his only appearance was in the defeat to Sutton in the cup...
    It does offer the question about our youth teams again though with Lund,Middleton and Pugh all been either moved on or transfer listed,we are still not producing the talent that gives us first team players who go on to command fee's at a higher level..We do get players through to there first professional contracts but they just don't seem to be able to kick on from that point...
    Lets hope there is a hidden gem or two in the next crop of youth players else it's proving a expensive exercise for little reward...

[GazLaz]

Said it for years. Our youth set up is a joke.

[DonnyOsmond]

I think with Mandeville and hopefully Fielding and Longbottom we'll have some come through. I believe Fergie has looked at this as an area we can improve on too and with him bringing in his own guy we hopefully see some development. I think fans don't even care about our youth team anyway because they know 95% of the time it doesn't lead to anything with us as a club.

[wing commander]

Said it for years. Our youth set up is a joke.

it's obviously not been working well but I don't know the reasons for it other than failure to spot talent...I used to work with a bloke who used to manage a u12 team in Donny who was always moaning that Leeds,Barnsley and Wednesday scouts used to keep popping down to give his lads the once over but he never saw a Rovers one in all the time he did it....But would be interested in were you think its gone wrong Gaz????

[DonnyOsmond]

I think Al has said that we are improving our scouting. Always has annoyed me that we never snap up lads like Mowatt, Yates from Rotherham and Latibeaudiere at Man City. We obviously can't compete with massive clubs in keeping them but we should be signing them up before other clubs do.

Then we're talking about becoming a Cat 2 academy, no point spending extra money if we can't get the best players in, it'll just be a waste.

[Bessie Red]

I think Al has said that we are improving our scouting. Always has annoyed me that we never snap up lads like Mowatt, Yates from Rotherham and Latibeaudiere at Man City. We obviously can't compete with massive clubs in keeping them but we should be signing them up before other clubs do.

Bobby Carroll at Everton (keep an eye out for him!!) is another one Rovers missed out on. He is the best I have seen at my lads age group in Doncaster, played for Bessacarr juniors for a few games. Was initially at Leeds then Everton snapped him up. Unfortunately the best local talent will always be taken up by bigger clubs, however we should still be getting local talent through to the first team as a matter of course as that is the most sustainable way for us to survive & progress.

[not on facebook]

Fcuk knows what they feed the youth team players on at Chelsea but the 16/17 year olds in that set up are scary .

When I saw scary it's the physical shape and size of these kids that's serious as it's men against boys whoever they play against at the same age and level.

They must stick them in grow bags during the non season months and keep them in greenhouses during winter months.

Their strength on the pitch allways out points the other team by far.

[Nudga]

Fcuk knows what they feed the youth team players on at Chelsea but the 16/17 year olds in that set up are scary .

When I saw scary it's the physical shape and size of these kids that's serious as it's men against boys whoever they play against at the same age and level.

They must stick them in grow bags during the non season months and keep them in greenhouses during winter months.

Their strength on the pitch allways out points the other team by far.

And this is the exact reason why England will not win anything for many many years to come.

I know the FA are trying to shake things up with their England DNA, But English academies always want the biggest, strongest and fastest. The smaller skilful kids don't get a look in.

[DonnyNoel]

Fcuk knows what they feed the youth team players on at Chelsea but the 16/17 year olds in that set up are scary .

When I saw scary it's the physical shape and size of these kids that's serious as it's men against boys whoever they play against at the same age and level.

They must stick them in grow bags during the non season months and keep them in greenhouses during winter months.

Their strength on the pitch allways out points the other team by far.

And this is the exact reason why England will not win anything for many many years to come.

I know the FA are trying to shake things up with their England DNA, But English academies always want the biggest, strongest and fastest. The smaller skilful kids don't get a look in.

Agreed, there also used to be a stat to back this up (although I haven't seen it for a while) that in youth set ups in the younger age groups there are a much larger %age of kids born September - December than there are from January - summer due to those kids being the older ones and having a few months extra development which as a proportion of their age makes a difference.

On the general state of play re our youth system, I wonder how much of it is chicken and egg situation. Do we have a poor record of producing youngsters because the better kids go to the more well established local academies (Leeds, Wednesday, Barnsley) or do they go to the more established local academies because we have such a poor record of producing youngsters?

For me, whislt they haven't turned out as hoped, I do think the recent presence of Lund and Middleton does show some signs of improvement.

[selby]

Lund and Middleton have not left yet,and we may have been champions if they had played instead of the likes of Alcock and Mason in the last few games and Calder earlier in the season.

[drfchound]

Alcock and Mason for me ahead of Lund and Middleton, all day long.

[Nudga]

Fcuk knows what they feed the youth team players on at Chelsea but the 16/17 year olds in that set up are scary .

When I saw scary it's the physical shape and size of these kids that's serious as it's men against boys whoever they play against at the same age and level.

They must stick them in grow bags during the non season months and keep them in greenhouses during winter months.

Their strength on the pitch allways out points the other team by far.

And this is the exact reason why England will not win anything for many many years to come.

I know the FA are trying to shake things up with their England DNA, But English academies always want the biggest, strongest and fastest. The smaller skilful kids don't get a look in.

Agreed, there also used to be a stat to back this up (although I haven't seen it for a while) that in youth set ups in the younger age groups there are a much larger %age of kids born September - December than there are from January - summer due to those kids being the older ones and having a few months extra development which as a proportion of their age makes a difference.

On the general state of play re our youth system, I wonder how much of it is chicken and egg situation. Do we have a poor record of producing youngsters because the better kids go to the more well established local academies (Leeds, Wednesday, Barnsley) or do they go to the more established local academies because we have such a poor record of producing youngsters?

For me, whislt they haven't turned out as hoped, I do think the recent presence of Lund and Middleton does show some signs of improvement.

There is also the case for "over coaching ", thus knocking out the creativity for more clone like players who can run in straight lines quickly and robustly.
The FA have recognised this and are going more in the way of street football.
Taking out cone drills and replacing them with loads of players in a small area playing over loaded games and letting kids learn by their own mistakes and developing instinctive, creative players.
Like I say, the academies don't seem to be following suit.

[DonnyOsmond]

I think Al has said that we are improving our scouting. Always has annoyed me that we never snap up lads like Mowatt, Yates from Rotherham and Latibeaudiere at Man City. We obviously can't compete with massive clubs in keeping them but we should be signing them up before other clubs do.

Bobby Carroll at Everton (keep an eye out for him!!) is another one Rovers missed out on. He is the best I have seen at my lads age group in Doncaster, played for Bessacarr juniors for a few games. Was initially at Leeds then Everton snapped him up. Unfortunately the best local talent will always be taken up by bigger clubs, however we should still be getting local talent through to the first team as a matter of course as that is the most sustainable way for us to survive & progress.

Him starting at Leeds again... Why aren't we better at scouting our own towns junior teams? Would be nice to see Rovers team up with clubs/leagues and help provide equipment and players to help coach sometimes as long as we're told about potential coming through?

We produce a couple decent youngsters every 5 or so years but other than Whitehouse and Middleton none are from our own town.

[not on facebook]

Fcuk knows what they feed the youth team players on at Chelsea but the 16/17 year olds in that set up are scary .

When I saw scary it's the physical shape and size of these kids that's serious as it's men against boys whoever they play against at the same age and level.

They must stick them in grow bags during the non season months and keep them in greenhouses during winter months.

Their strength on the pitch allways out points the other team by far.

And this is the exact reason why England will not win anything for many many years to come.

I know the FA are trying to shake things up with their England DNA, But English academies always want the biggest, strongest and fastest. The smaller skilful kids don't get a look in.

Agreed, there also used to be a stat to back this up (although I haven't seen it for a while) that in youth set ups in the younger age groups there are a much larger %age of kids born September - December than there are from January - summer due to those kids being the older ones and having a few months extra development which as a proportion of their age makes a difference.

On the general state of play re our youth system, I wonder how much of it is chicken and egg situation. Do we have a poor record of producing youngsters because the better kids go to the more well established local academies (Leeds, Wednesday, Barnsley) or do they go to the more established local academies because we have such a poor record of producing youngsters?

For me, whislt they haven't turned out as hoped, I do think the recent presence of Lund and Middleton does show some signs of improvement.

There is also the case for "over coaching ", thus knocking out the creativity for more clone like players who can run in straight lines quickly and robustly.
The FA have recognised this and are going more in the way of street football.
Taking out cone drills and replacing them with loads of players in a small area playing over loaded games and letting kids learn by their own mistakes and developing instinctive, creative players.
Like I say, the academies don't seem to be following suit.

Been watching quite a few of the Chelsea under 17s team this season and they do not run in straight lines for sure.

That houghton at rovers who everyone says is too draw ,was playing for Chelsea under17s two seasons back .

Just look at Chelsea's 2nd goal in the recent FA youth cup final at Stamford bridge.it was scored by a 16 year old and the goal was from Brazil South American standards.

Now this is not a racist comment so wind your necks in ,but the amount of black kids in the youth set ups of man city Chelsea arsenal is very very interesting fact.

Are white kids getting lazzy by sitting in their bedrooms on the PC all day while the coloured kids are out playing football football and more football.

[selby]

Hound I didnt miss a game last season, and beleive me, they were both terrible in the last few games.
  At no stage of the season were any of our home grown players given the same chances as our loan players.
  The fact that Mason and Calder played nearly every game made me think that the loan agreement was that we had to play them or pay their wages instead of Villa.
Calder especially came on numerous times in the early part of the season,and played a little cameo part, when there was no rime or reason for it during the game, and most of our supporters could not see the reason why.
  That stopped our own  players development in my opinion,a lost season as far as they are concerned.
  Calder was not as good as our own youngsters,Mason not a lot better.
  All our own youngsters played well in the Cheka Trophy,Middleton and Mandeville especially,Middleton was never given the run in the team, and Mandeville only because of injury,and at the end of the season was ignored even when on the bench, while players obviously out of form played.
  Only my take on things mate,and means nothing,but to hear and read people  criticising players who have not had the chances others have,and saying our youth team is not up to scratch without looking at the reasons pisses me off.

[Iberian Red]

Said it for years. Our youth set up is a joke.

We need to bring in someone local for this. Graham Rix could groom the youth team.

[steve@dcfd]

The reason Middleton was not given a run in the team is he could not run.
He could not tackle, he got caught when trying to pass. In league one we need better all the young players we have to pick up their standards if they are going to play regular.

To be fair to all the young players. In youth team football they are playing nearly every week.
When they step up to year one professionals they train but only play if we arrange a friendly how are they going to progress.

[DonnyOsmond]

Fcuk knows what they feed the youth team players on at Chelsea but the 16/17 year olds in that set up are scary .

When I saw scary it's the physical shape and size of these kids that's serious as it's men against boys whoever they play against at the same age and level.

They must stick them in grow bags during the non season months and keep them in greenhouses during winter months.

Their strength on the pitch allways out points the other team by far.

And this is the exact reason why England will not win anything for many many years to come.

I know the FA are trying to shake things up with their England DNA, But English academies always want the biggest, strongest and fastest. The smaller skilful kids don't get a look in.

Agreed, there also used to be a stat to back this up (although I haven't seen it for a while) that in youth set ups in the younger age groups there are a much larger %age of kids born September - December than there are from January - summer due to those kids being the older ones and having a few months extra development which as a proportion of their age makes a difference.

On the general state of play re our youth system, I wonder how much of it is chicken and egg situation. Do we have a poor record of producing youngsters because the better kids go to the more well established local academies (Leeds, Wednesday, Barnsley) or do they go to the more established local academies because we have such a poor record of producing youngsters?

For me, whislt they haven't turned out as hoped, I do think the recent presence of Lund and Middleton does show some signs of improvement.

There is also the case for "over coaching ", thus knocking out the creativity for more clone like players who can run in straight lines quickly and robustly.
The FA have recognised this and are going more in the way of street football.
Taking out cone drills and replacing them with loads of players in a small area playing over loaded games and letting kids learn by their own mistakes and developing instinctive, creative players.
Like I say, the academies don't seem to be following suit.

Been watching quite a few of the Chelsea under 17s team this season and they do not run in straight lines for sure.

That houghton at rovers who everyone says is too draw ,was playing for Chelsea under17s two seasons back .

Just look at Chelsea's 2nd goal in the recent FA youth cup final at Stamford bridge.it was scored by a 16 year old and the goal was from Brazil South American standards.

Now this is not a racist comment so wind your necks in ,but the amount of black kids in the youth set ups of man city Chelsea arsenal is very very interesting fact.

Are white kids getting lazzy by sitting in their bedrooms on the PC all day while the coloured kids are out playing football football and more football.

1. What colour are they? Green?

2. How does skin colour make someone lazy or not? Wtaf?

[steve@dcfd]

Houghton is 21 therefore he was playing for U17 four years ago. He still has a contract at Chelsea yet as not played for the first team.

We wouldn't have ayoung player still at the club four years after the youth team yet not played for the first team. You can't compare top Premiership teams with league 1 and 2 teams when it comes to youth players.

[selby]

Steve,apart from the passing you have just described Pirloe,and Scholes.
 We had all our runners on then against Blackpool,Wycombe,and Hartlepool,because they didnt play much football.
  And while we are at it,why take Luke off and ignore Keegan a like for like player on the bench at Hartlepool?
   Another player who was totally ignored.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Given our standing in the Football pyramid, I think we have to accept we are further down the food chain.

Young lads with real talent (and parents) are less likely to choose Rovers as their first choice.

The only observation that I see is with most of those that have come through to the first team squad don't appear to be that hungry to stake their claim. Only James Husband that I can recall combined his talent with a desire to make his position his own. Whether they are prepared correctly by the coaches is a fair question. Too often there seems to be a fear of making mistakes and play within themselves.

Middleton and Lund have had ample opportunity to stake their claim and have struggled to make their mark. The gap between them and what we see from Houghton and Mason is big in terms of technical ability, physical preparation and overall awareness.

I just don't think we can compete with Premier League clubs in terms of the resources they put in to
develop large numbers of youth players in the hope that 10% make it to league standard so they can progress to the first team squads or be sold on to cover the money invested in them.

[drfchound]

Selby, respect for going to every game last season.
I went to every home game and quite a few away so I also have a good base from which to pass an opinion.
Your reply varies a little from the original point about the merits of Lund and Middleton against Alcock and Mason.
I agree with you about Calder not being up to scratch for us and that not enough of our young players break through to become regular first team players.
On the original point, I still stand by my view that Alcock and Mason are both better and more consistent players than Lund and Middleton.
The latter have the potential to do well but Middleton in particular seems to take two steps forward then three steps back in terms of his performances.
There was a time when he played alongside Wellens that I thought he really could become a top player.
Wellens trusted him enough to give him the ball in tight situations and HM seemed to revel in that.
After Wellens left Harry went backwards quickly.
In a DM role he offers little and I think he is better in a more forward role.
Sadly for him we have an abundance of players in those positions so his chances are going to be limited.
Masons' job in the team has been totally different.
As we know he has played most of the time at LB which clearly isn't his preferred position but he did well enough for us to be in place to win the division.
When he played DM he looked very good to me, his passing is very good and he reads the game well.
Alcock and Lund are similar players and Alcock to me is better for us right now and was last season.
He is a better header of the ball and reads the game better.
Perhaps that is an experience thing which Lund, as a younger player, hasn't got yet.
Lund was doing ok until he got injured but once Alcock came back into the team our goals per game conceded stats came down noticeably.
To make a point generally, young players at lower clubs won't, generally, be as good as young players from PL and Championship clubs so when the better players come to clubs like us on loan they will be more likely to be in the team on merit.

As for Mason and Alcock being poor in the last four games, well I was at three of them and as far as I am concerned the whole team was poor in the main in all of those matches.
There were one or two exceptions only so to lambast Alcock and Mason in particular is a little unfair.

[BobG]

Said it for years. Our youth set up is a joke.

We need to bring in someone local for this. Graham Rix could groom the youth team.

Or maybe a certain nephew of a certain ex Council Leader............

BobG

[selby]

Hound, thanks for the reply,I agree with much that you have said,especially the point that Middleton can play with better players(Wellens),and how much better he is further forward.
 Lets just hope for as good a season next year,I am sure that everyone wants all the players who put on the hoops to do well.

[drfchound]

Amen to that selby but I am not sure that all of our supporters get behind all of our players though.

[Sammy Chung was King]

When you read you're sports pullout in a morning what is seen as the biggest plus for a player in any match?-Answer How many kilometres he ran. I would rather have a player that was intelligent and didn't run around for the sake of it but at the right times. We have many powerful athletes but far too many who can't use the brain given to them. Intelligence is lacking because players aren't learned from a young age to think about their game it's all about running up and down not thinking that maybe the kid would have done better by maybe not making that lost cause run because the ball was always going to drop back into the area they were already  in.

 Learn kids why they need to be in certain positions, get them thinking about how they can affect a game tactically on the pitch, learn them things like that early and we might start producing clever footballers who out-think an opponent. The tried and tested six foot plus biggest lad in the year doesn't work many times the lad who is five foot is twice the player he will ever be.

[DonnyNoel]

Fcuk knows what they feed the youth team players on at Chelsea but the 16/17 year olds in that set up are scary .

When I saw scary it's the physical shape and size of these kids that's serious as it's men against boys whoever they play against at the same age and level.

They must stick them in grow bags during the non season months and keep them in greenhouses during winter months.

Their strength on the pitch allways out points the other team by far.

And this is the exact reason why England will not win anything for many many years to come.

I know the FA are trying to shake things up with their England DNA, But English academies always want the biggest, strongest and fastest. The smaller skilful kids don't get a look in.

Agreed, there also used to be a stat to back this up (although I haven't seen it for a while) that in youth set ups in the younger age groups there are a much larger %age of kids born September - December than there are from January - summer due to those kids being the older ones and having a few months extra development which as a proportion of their age makes a difference.

On the general state of play re our youth system, I wonder how much of it is chicken and egg situation. Do we have a poor record of producing youngsters because the better kids go to the more well established local academies (Leeds, Wednesday, Barnsley) or do they go to the more established local academies because we have such a poor record of producing youngsters?

For me, whislt they haven't turned out as hoped, I do think the recent presence of Lund and Middleton does show some signs of improvement.

There is also the case for "over coaching ", thus knocking out the creativity for more clone like players who can run in straight lines quickly and robustly.
The FA have recognised this and are going more in the way of street football.
Taking out cone drills and replacing them with loads of players in a small area playing over loaded games and letting kids learn by their own mistakes and developing instinctive, creative players.
Like I say, the academies don't seem to be following suit.

Definitely. Despite being known as a coach who likes to develop young players, Wenger has gone out of his way to make this point. Now kids are put in organised teams/games from the age of 7 they learn in a very sterile environment whereas the occasional hustle and bustle of a park game with kids 3/4 years younger than you also has its benefits.

[Alan Southstand]

The problem with Middleton is he has, like Evina, not progressed since the Contract extension. IMHO, he didn't warrant an extension in the first place, but I bow to someone far more experienced in these matters. Quite simply, he isn't good enough and especially for the level we are now at, and if we are to believe the 5 year plan, where we are intending going.

Also, if he couldn't find a slot in what was, arguably, the weakest part of the team last season, then when is he going to get in.

[Belle_Vue]

A football usually has a specific trait.

Matty Blair for example is fast.
Rob Jones could get his head on anything.
Copps has excellent ball controll.
Sharp can find the net.
Keegan broke up play.
Stock playmaker.
Greeny was a box to box player.
Chris Brown, target man and hold up play.
Hayter tireless workhorse.
Cotteril, set pieces and crossing.
JOC, ability to defend and get up the flank.


Then even someone like Niall Mason, flexibility to cover a number of positions.


The point I'm trying to make is after watching middleton, I have no idea what his best trait is. And at his age, he should be pushing on. He seems a steady player, but steady players only keep the bench warm.

[selby]

Being retired and having time on my side I also went to half a dozen games arranged at Cantley for the so called development sides.
  Sheffield Wednesday put out a very strong side as did Scunthorpe and a team of released premiership youngsters up to 21 yrs old.
  The Wednesday side had cost over £10 million in transfer fees,and Alfie played in a couple before making the first team,most of our fringe players making up the Rovers sides.
  Middleton ran the show in most of the games,and while walking around the pitch the manager of the Wednesday who was stood by himself and I had a chat.
  He picked out Middleton and Lund as good players,and they did play well but fair does the first team were on a run at the time.
  How many full games have the people who say they should leave have they watched them play this season.
  If they do go, I think they could come back to bite our backside.