Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr

What are these massive fiscal bail outs? How much have we paid? To whom? How much have we got back?

[Ldr]

I think we are all aware of the bailouts to italy and especially greece mate.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media

I don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.

My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.

You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me

Well someone whose opinion is backed up by something other than a gut feeling tends to be more valid than someone whose opinion is just that.

More informed does not equate to more valid. Basically you are dismissing the opinion of everyone who then forms it differently as less valid which is not the case. Everyones opinion is valid

You're confusing the concepts of 'entitlement' and 'validity'. Everybody's entitled to have an opinion. That doesn't make every opinion that people have valid. Holocaust deniers have the opinion that the Holocaust never happened. Is their opinion just as valid as those of use who know it happened?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr

How much have we paid for those bailouts?

[SydneyRover]

Ldr

How much have we paid for those bailouts?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33407742

With both Ireland and Portugal now out of their bailout programmes, the UK has not lost any money supporting them at the peak of the crisis

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277

[Ldr]

Forgive me for not noticing where I mentioned Ireland or Portugal......

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yep. We made loans to Ireland and Portugal. They were repaid in full with interest.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Forgive me for not noticing where I mentioned Ireland or Portugal......

You weren't asked about Ireland and Portugal. You were asked about Greece and Italy.

[wilts rover]

Did we loan money to Greece because we were in the EU? Seeing as we lent them slightly less than the USA?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Did we loan money to Greece because we were in the EU? Seeing as we lent them slightly less than the USA?

I think the answer - which Ldr seems to be unaware of - is that we didn't loan any money to Greece. But hey, his opinion that we did is still just as valid!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yep. We made loans to Ireland and Portugal. They were repaid in full with interest.

Were they loans from the UK, the EU as a whole, or the Eurozone?

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Ireland one was a combination of funding that we made through the EU and a Direct Govt-to-Govt loan.

We were repaid in full for the funding we made through the EU to both Ireland and Portugal.

We haven’t yet been re-paid for the second loan to Ireland. Repayment starts in April ne t year and goes on in batches until March 2021. We have, however, to date been paid over £450m in interest by Ireland.

By the way, far from this second loan being something that we were forced into by our membership of the EU, the Govt’s stayed reason at the time of the loans was.
“The government agreed to provide a bilateral loan to Ireland because it is in the UK’s national interest that Ireland has a successful economy and a stable banking system. The links between our financial systems, particularly in Northern Ireland, mean that there was a strong economic case to provide financial assistance to Ireland. By being part of the international financial package, the UK indirectly supported the very many businesses across the UK that trade with Ireland.”

[Ldr]

Guys (Glyn "I think I'm superior" Wigley, and all others who are at least respectful) I mean EU bailouts to Greece and Italy NOT direct UK payments (since we contribute to the EU budget) and I reiterate I never raised Ireland OR Portugal.

[Glyn_Wigley]

They weren't EU bailouts. They were Eurozone loans - not EU loans -  and as such absolutely nothing to do with the UK. So why you've raised the subject in a thread about the UK's relations with the EU I can't fathom.

[Ldr]

And the loans by the EIB to Greece glyn? Which as you must well know is owned by the eu member states including the UK......

[BillyStubbsTears]

Lrd

Word of advice. Glyn might have been hard work here, but it doesn’t change the fact that you’re on dodgy ground with this argument.

Yesthe EIB has invested in Greece. The key word here is “invested”. And you might want to look at what the EIB has invested in our own economy   

[SydneyRover]

So here we are again discussing Brexit, and there are known knowns and unknown knowns...........

We are in this position because Cameron didnt do his home work and squibbed by putting a vote to the people instead of thrashing it out with his party and in the parliament and did not expect a yes vote. Cameron has lost all credibility since by resigning and leaving the C-team to clear up the mess. Known.

The those taking an active part in the lead up to the vote were not monitored to ensure everything was fair and above board. Known.

Widespread cheating regarding the truth in statements and funding of the leave vote where the majority of the corruption has been uncovered. Known.

Almost all the news and information from credible souces has painted a scene of bad news for the economy and individuals alike, the individuals most affected are already in the lower socio economic band. Known

There is no credible outcome known to date where Britain will be able to make good the losses to date and the losses that will be incurred for the foreseeable future. Known

Since the vote the government has been dishonest in part and a absolute shambles in negotiating all the possible outcomes of Brexit. Known.

[Ldr]

Best post yet Sydney. Bst pretty true. All I joined the thread for was to suggest whinging and blaming doesn't help anyone and just get on with the best of the situation like you actually said a few posts back. Easy to get dragging into childish arguments though

[wilts rover]

That is an excellent summary of where we are today Sydney - and how we got here.

If I can just add a couple of things to it:

Cameron called the referendum because of UKIP and his fear of them taking votes away from the Tories.

The vote to leave was to a large extent down to immigration. The polls published last week still show that 75% of people prioritise control of immigration above the economy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

And here’s an interesting point. There is an inverse correlation between how many immigrants there are in an area, and how strongly that area voted to Leave.

https://images.theconversation.com/files/129691/original/image-20160707-30710-1hglytw.gif?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip



The people who most want to send em back don’t actually encounter many immigrants. But they HEAR about them.

[Glyn_Wigley]

And the loans by the EIB to Greece glyn? Which as you must well know is owned by the eu member states including the UK......

The EIB doesn't loan out because of any economic problems in a country, they are made to finance specific projects such as infrastructure building or helping SMEs. So in no way can you call the loans they make a 'bailout' - unless you think that the E2,143,000,000 the UK got in 2017 was the EU bailing us out? And you are talking about the Greek 'bailout', aren't you?

[The Red Baron]

Not much anti-Maastricht sentiment in this 1991 poll TRB.

https://ems.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2948

Exactly on that basis , the pro- EU vote would have pissed it contrary to all the things you hear I.e. - " Well if we had been allowed a vote on Maastricht  ; we would have been long gone out of the EU " .

Perhaps on a vote based on lies and exaggerations , Russian money and Cambridge Analytica , AIQ, false electoral funding and expenditure ........they might well have been right.

I actually think if the UK had voted on Maastricht we would have been less likely to have had Brexit.

[The Red Baron]

So here we are again discussing Brexit, and there are known knowns and unknown knowns...........

We are in this position because Cameron didnt do his home work and squibbed by putting a vote to the people instead of thrashing it out with his party and in the parliament and did not expect a yes vote. Cameron has lost all credibility since by resigning and leaving the C-team to clear up the mess. Known.

The those taking an active part in the lead up to the vote were not monitored to ensure everything was fair and above board. Known.

Widespread cheating regarding the truth in statements and funding of the leave vote where the majority of the corruption has been uncovered. Known.

Almost all the news and information from credible souces has painted a scene of bad news for the economy and individuals alike, the individuals most affected are already in the lower socio economic band. Known

There is no credible outcome known to date where Britain will be able to make good the losses to date and the losses that will be incurred for the foreseeable future. Known

Since the vote the government has been dishonest in part and a absolute shambles in negotiating all the possible outcomes of Brexit. Known.

You are spot on about Cameron. He didn't have to hold the referendum in June 2016 as he had at least another 12 months leeway. He could have used that time to achieve some concessions on Free Movement that would almost certainly have swung the vote the other way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr
I appreciate your intention. Please understand that what I am doing is not whinging or blaming.

And I fervently agree that what we need to do is make the best of the situation. I want our country to be wealthy, comfortable with itself and mature. My abiding fear is that we’ve set ourselves on a path where we are going to be none of those things by the time my kids are my age.

Brexit still does not have to happen in the way that May interpreted it. There is nothing like a Will of the People for the kind of hard Brexit that she is stumbling us into. But it WILL happen if people just shrug their shoulders and say “Let them get in with it.”

Last point. You won’t like this but I suggest you read it. And think hard about the points raised. Don’t see it as partisan tub-thumping. See it as mature, intelligent reflection. Allow yourself to be challenged.
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/06/two-years-into-brexit-disaster.html?m=1

[Ldr]

A very good read BST and indeed thought provoking

[BillyStubbsTears]

I was always told when I was younger that the Tories were the party of business.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44593095

Seems now that when businesses make strategic plans and announce their results, Tory Cabinet Ministers accuse them of issuing threats.

Can you imagine what it’s like in the Cabinet at the moment? Not one of them expected Leave to win. Only a handful wanted Leave to win. Not one of them has got any idea how to broker a deal that is acceptable to their aging, Little Englander members and to the EU and would not cause immense damage to the UK economy. Everyone of them knows that the history books are going to crucify them as the most disorganised, unstatesman-like rabble who led Britain into a disaster.

What a f**king mess.

[SydneyRover]

Ldr
I appreciate your intention. Please understand that what I am doing is not whinging or blaming.

And I fervently agree that what we need to do is make the best of the situation. I want our country to be wealthy, comfortable with itself and mature. My abiding fear is that we’ve set ourselves on a path where we are going to be none of those things by the time my kids are my age.

Brexit still does not have to happen in the way that May interpreted it. There is nothing like a Will of the People for the kind of hard Brexit that she is stumbling us into. But it WILL happen if people just shrug their shoulders and say “Let them get in with it.”

Last point. You won’t like this but I suggest you read it. And think hard about the points raised. Don’t see it as partisan tub-thumping. See it as mature, intelligent reflection. Allow yourself to be challenged.
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/06/two-years-into-brexit-disaster.html?m=1

Thank you for all the comments about my earlier post but the link to the blog put up by BST is far more comprehensive.

I would find it difficult to believe that anyone could read it and make claim that any part is untrue (if anyone does please show cause and provide citations), and further knowing that it is true that they would be still be willing to support Brexit.

I concede that everone is his own man (person) and are perfectly entitled to their personal view but knowing all this and yet would still support Brexit, which would be for what? please explain to me why so that I/we may learn something that is not obvious as none of the advantages once forwarded as good reason to support Brexit no longer stand scrutiny.

[Sprotyrover]

Ldr

How much have we paid for those bailouts?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33407742







£56 billion was pumped into the 'Celtic tiger' of which £20 was from the Uk, that's three times the total GDP of Eire, We borrowed it at 5.5% and they pay it back at 6.5%. Allegedly!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk


With both Ireland and Portugal now out of their bailout programmes, the UK has not lost any money supporting them at the peak of the crisis

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277

[Sprotyrover]

Looks like the link doesn't work but if you google how much did it cost the uk to bail Eire out you will find that we are probably about £16 billion out of pocket as the last Labour Govt slushed billions over the water to bail em out. £56 billion the total amount borrowed by Eire equates to 3 years worth of the entire GDP of Eire.So no things don't look rosy at all.
So stop patting yersens on the back and get googling!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.

And all that has precisely what to do with our membership of the EU?