Brexit Negotiations

[bpoolrover]

Ok mate sorry I must misunderstood, so you would accept it if the public voted to leave with a no deal? Out of interest why would you when you have not the 1st one?

[Dutch Uncle]

One problem with the referendum was the asymmetry in that everyone voting for remain was in principle able to know what they were voting for - the status quo (forgetting for a minute that the incompetent and lazy leave campaign never actually explained everything EU membership entailed and embarked on a negative project fear). On the other hand how could anyone voting for leave know what they were voting for.

I think a second referendum once the reality of the type of Brexit on offer is known is only reasonable. It should at least be a more educated vote. Some who voted remain may now wish to leave and vice versa.

None of this takes into account any suggestions of breaking of electoral rules and/or outside interference which might cast doubts over the result in some people’s eyes.

[bpoolrover]

Where do you draw the line thou Dutch,if it is a vote remain on the 2nd vote are the vote leave then entitled to a final vote?

[bpoolrover]

It's quite possible a new vote if was done like greening wanted today could end up in a worse position for the Ones wanting to stay in the eu with a vote for a no deal

[RedJ]

Switzerland have regular referendums, even sometimes having ones to undo what they did if they realise they've f**ked up. To the people who say that a second vote would be undemocratic - is Switzerland an undemocratic nation?

[bpoolrover]

maybe red, if we have a 2nd referendum and people vote to walk away with no deal is that the end of it or is there to be a 3rd one?

[RedJ]

If people still vote to leave knowing what's on the table then you can't argue with it. But at the end of the day, some people voted to Leave thinking that we would automatically withdraw the day after the vote if we voted to go, some thought that we would be guaranteed a Norway model, some thought we'd get our own special deal. People had no idea what they were voting for if they voted to leave. If they know what they're voting for, and still vote to leave as a majority, then you can't argue with it.

If people in the future decide they've f**ked up and want to get back in, then you can't really argue with that either, if there's appetite to go back on the decision.  But at the moment the whole negotiation process has been a f**king shambles and if we leave with a shit deal or no deal we'll be in the shit.

[Dutch Uncle]

Where do you draw the line thou Dutch,if it is a vote remain on the 2nd vote are the vote leave then entitled to a final vote?

My point is that a second referendum would not be a re-run of the first. The question for the follow-up referendum should be much more specific and well defined. There should be no need for any more referendums and that should be made clear.

Edit: Of course the result will still be a disappointment for many people, whichever way it might go, but at least we have had more than 2 years to understand what we are voting for.

With wonderful hindsight a more sensible question for the first referendum would have been - do you wish to stay in the EU, or start a process of negotiating a deal to leave?

[Dutch Uncle]

Switzerland have regular referendums, even sometimes having ones to undo what they did if they realise they've f**ked up. To the people who say that a second vote would be undemocratic - is Switzerland an undemocratic nation?

IIRC Denmark had two referendums to ratify the Maastricht Treaty, the first said no, and the second yes.

Edit: Denmark gained 4 ‘exceptions’ to the treaty, so again the people voted for something different (albeit only slightly) in the second referendum.

[wilts rover]

what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.

It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.

Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?

The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213

[selby]

   A second vote could get very messy, I am sure it would be portrayed as a vote whether parliament could overrule the will of the people.
   Whether 600 plus M.P's could overrule 17 million voters. I would be very surprised if that did not become the main topic, or at least portrayed that way by the leave campaigners.

[wilts rover]

What would happen if people voted leave with no deal would you accept that thou or demand a 3rd referendum?

I think this is a really valid question - how many times do we need to re-run a referendum, until will give the answer the government of day wants?

I do think that Padge, Blackpool and the other Brexiteers have a reason to be agrieved, they voted Leave, thought they had won a majority and now see it's not going the way they wanted. The reason for that of course is the other point Greening made, that the government doesnt want a hard Brexit, and even if they did it wouldn't get through parliament.

I cant see how any further referendum will change that. Unless the party that 'win's the referendum gets to carry it out, there will still be an impasse.

There has to be a general election. Each party gets to put their agenda and plan to the public, we all get to vote for the party we think has the best plan. If one part wins a majority so be it, they get to implement that plan. If there is no overall majority (as now) it should be a national coalition.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Ok mate sorry I must misunderstood, so you would accept it if the public voted to leave with a no deal? Out of interest why would you when you have not the 1st one?

I would accept whatever result happens. I accepted the last result. You seem to equate 'accept' with 'agree with' or 'Shutting the feck up because you lost'. I'd accept a Leave vote but I won't agree with it, because I have always thought (and still do) that it is not in the best interests of this country. Just the same as last time all the way to now.

[Glyn_Wigley]

what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.

It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.

Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?

The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213

Wilts, you're confusing 'trading with' with 'having a trade deal with'. They aren't the same thing.

[wilts rover]

what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.

It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.

Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?

The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213

Wilts, you're confusing 'trading with' with 'having a trade deal with'. They aren't the same thing.

It's much more your area of expertise than mine Glyn but the deals Germany and China did last week are being called trade deals.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-china/with-raft-of-deals-china-and-germany-swear-to-keep-trade-free-idUSKBN1JZ0VM

As were the deals May came back with in February
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-china-britain/may-gets-9-billion-pounds-in-china-deals-xi-promises-to-build-on-golden-era-idUKKBN1FM0G0

[Glyn_Wigley]

what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.

It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.

Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?

The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213

Wilts, you're confusing 'trading with' with 'having a trade deal with'. They aren't the same thing.

It's much more your area of expertise than mine Glyn but the deals Germany and China did last week are being called trade deals.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-china/with-raft-of-deals-china-and-germany-swear-to-keep-trade-free-idUSKBN1JZ0VM

As were the deals May came back with in February
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-china-britain/may-gets-9-billion-pounds-in-china-deals-xi-promises-to-build-on-golden-era-idUKKBN1FM0G0

You don't need a trade deal to trade with someone.

Padge was talking about trade deals, you answered by talking about trading with China - which we can, and do, trade with without a trade deal.

[SydneyRover]

Blackpool and Wilts stop fudging and asking never ending questions, if you want Brexit tell us what you want, tell us how it will change Britiain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What would happen if people voted leave with no deal would you accept that thou or demand a 3rd referendum?

I think this is a really valid question - how many times do we need to re-run a referendum, until will give the answer the government of day wants?

I do think that Padge, Blackpool and the other Brexiteers have a reason to be agrieved, they voted Leave, thought they had won a majority and now see it's not going the way they wanted. The reason for that of course is the other point Greening made, that the government doesnt want a hard Brexit, and even if they did it wouldn't get through parliament.

I cant see how any further referendum will change that. Unless the party that 'win's the referendum gets to carry it out, there will still be an impasse.

There has to be a general election. Each party gets to put their agenda and plan to the public, we all get to vote for the party we think has the best plan. If one part wins a majority so be it, they get to implement that plan. If there is no overall majority (as now) it should be a national coalition.

So Wilts. Yep, let’s have a General Election.

We’ll have a Tory Party led by someone who doesn’t want a Hard Brexit and populated by people who do.

And a Labour Party led by someone who does want a Hard Brexit and populated by people who don’t.

And if the GE is inconclusive (how could there be a conclusive result in those circumstances) you want those immovable objects and irresistible forces to form a National Coalition? On what platform precisely?

[bpoolrover]

Agree with bst on the general election there is a fair chance the result would be the same as last time so we would be in the same position, maybe people are right have another referendum but just have walk away or remain and whoever wins just accept the result

[Padge_DRFC]

Yes trade deals. Much lower tariffs or none at all. Making each other’s goods to buy from each other more appealing and paying less for it. Which we cannot do until leaving the EU basically.
I’m not going to lie and hide it I also voted so we could control immigration. There I said it and some people darent because of being called a racist. However having said that it’s harder for the Indian doctor to come to the UK than the jobless Frenchman come to the Uk.
I see that’s one of May’s latest things she will still give preference to EU citizens over the rest of the world.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Agree with bst on the general election there is a fair chance the result would be the same as last time so we would be in the same position, maybe people are right have another referendum but just have walk away or remain and whoever wins just accept the result

What about those who want a soft Brexit, doesn't their opinion matter?

[hoolahoop]

what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.

It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU.

Sydney, if I think that the statement the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world is b*llocks, why would I think Britain is better off outside the EU?

The EU clearly isn't holding us back from trading with the rest of the world, as we already trade more with the rest of the world than the we do with the EU as a member of the EU - nor does being in the EU hold any other EU country back from trading with the rest of the world, as my example of Germany's trade with China shows.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-economy-trade/china-remains-germanys-biggest-trading-partner-in-2017-idUSKCN1G5213

I looked at this sequence of posts that was how I read them too. My thinking,  it was just an oversight  by Sydney on what is clearly such an emotive subject.

[bpoolrover]

Agree with bst on the general election there is a fair chance the result would be the same as last time so we would be in the same position, maybe people are right have another referendum but just have walk away or remain and whoever wins just accept the result

What about those who want a soft Brexit, doesn't their opinion matter?

as they can't come to a agreement after all this time no I think if there was to be a 2nd referendum there should be 2 options otherwise we will be in the same position

[bpoolrover]

Also say there was 3 options and 29 percent voted for a hard brexit 31 for a soft brexit and 40 percent for no brexit who would win?

[DevilMayCry]

Vote Leave: Brexit campaign 'broke electoral law' in referendum

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

[MachoMadness]

Overspent by half a million quid. Considering the spending limit was £7m, that's not small potatoes. If you have any experience with Facebook marketing at all, you'll know what half a million quid gets you. Frightening.

[The Red Baron]

Also say there was 3 options and 29 percent voted for a hard brexit 31 for a soft brexit and 40 percent for no brexit who would win?

I presume if you used the model Justine Greening is proposing you would then count second preferences, suitably weighted. Although it might not produce anything more convincing than your scenario.

That is the difficulty with a second referendum. It may well produce a different result to the first one, but the numbers might not be all that different. Anyone for another 52/48 split?

[hoolahoop]

If people still vote to leave knowing what's on the table then you can't argue with it. But at the end of the day, some people voted to Leave thinking that we would automatically withdraw the day after the vote if we voted to go, some thought that we would be guaranteed a Norway model, some thought we'd get our own special deal. People had no idea what they were voting for if they voted to leave. If they know what they're voting for, and still vote to leave as a majority, then you can't argue with it.

If people in the future decide they've f**ked up and want to get back in, then you can't really argue with that either, if there's appetite to go back on the decision.  But at the moment the whole negotiation process has been a f**king shambles and if we leave with a shit deal or no deal we'll be in the shit.

Good post and by the way you forgot all those that thought it was a foregone conclusion to keep the status quo - we know that much of the work carried out by AIQ  and Cambridge Analytica was a as much about SUPPRESSING  the vote as it was getting the Buccaneers out to vote Leave. I'm sure quite a few of the lethargic would be interested in posting their vote at the ballot box now we know what is really about to happen :-

    12,948,018...12,948,018...12,948,018....

# Will of the people my arse

[hoolahoop]

Yes trade deals. Much lower tariffs or none at all. Making each other’s goods to buy from each other more appealing and paying less for it. Which we cannot do until leaving the EU basically.
I’m not going to lie and hide it I also voted so we could control immigration. There I said it and some people darent because of being called a racist. However having said that it’s harder for the Indian doctor to come to the UK than the jobless Frenchman come to the Uk.
I see that’s one of May’s latest things she will still give preference to EU citizens over the rest of the world.

Padge what % of our population are actually foreigners I.e. not born here , do you know ?

[hoolahoop]

Yes trade deals. Much lower tariffs or none at all. Making each other’s goods to buy from each other more appealing and paying less for it. Which we cannot do until leaving the EU basically.
I’m not going to lie and hide it I also voted so we could control immigration. There I said it and some people darent because of being called a racist. However having said that it’s harder for the Indian doctor to come to the UK than the jobless Frenchman come to the Uk.
I see that’s one of May’s latest things she will still give preference to EU citizens over the rest of the world.

Padge you are talking nonsense though we are NOT  prevented from doing deals and trading successfully with countries outside the EU . Where do you get this stuff of nonsense from ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-country&ved=2ahUKEwjjgqDT9aXcAhWHCcAKHVD9DsAQFjAMegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3JBNaspZLEQFUY07ymHVdC

It's whether you have ANYTHING to sell other countries that matters not a bloody piece of paper . Fact is we are unproductive ( hence the moves to de- regulate ) and have little in the way of raw materials and a weak industrial base without our Service sector we are sunk as we were in 1972 . However hopefully we are in a better shape to deal with it after our post --EU revival but I doubt it .

Basically we are already uncompetitive and are seeking to be more so ! Why ?

Many questions but rarely do I ever see a real answer only the odd soundbite . I doubt I will this time either .