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Author Topic: Brexit Negotiations  (Read 307041 times)

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RedJ

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1830 on July 12, 2018, 11:00:09 pm by RedJ »
How is that having a warped mind? on what planet is losing 8% of your GDP every single year through a self inflicted act not ruining your country?



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tommy toes

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1831 on July 12, 2018, 11:01:39 pm by tommy toes »
Going to ruin the country?  No they already have...8 years of pointless austerity followed by the Almighty train wreck of Brexit.

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1832 on July 12, 2018, 11:33:02 pm by SydneyRover »
Apart from Idler, I have still not read any other Brexiteer explain their reason or a reason that makes any sense or a reason that stands scrutiny, why Britain should leave the EU.

It's this lack of being able to articulate a sensible position for themselves or the country that makes me wonder if there is an underlying reason they don't wish to openly discuss or that they are embarrassed about being duped and made to look like complete and utter idiots by the likes of Farago and his ilk and they feel they cannot now change their positions.

tommy toes

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1833 on July 12, 2018, 11:47:55 pm by tommy toes »
You only have to look at the demography of pro Brexit voters to get the gist despite all the protestations to the contrary.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1834 on July 13, 2018, 12:18:27 am by BillyStubbsTears »
This was all eminently clear when she lost her majority and mandate at the last election. But shr trundled along regardless.
That was different. She could continue in Denial Mode. Something might have turned up. Plus, she was a useful lightning conductor for the rest of the party. She had f**ked up tgeir position and no one wanted to be responsible for sorting out the mess.

Now it’s different. There’s no time for anything to turn up to save her. Her pride and her reputation and her position in the history books are all irrevocably destroyed. She thought she could control the destructive centripetal forces in the Tory party but they have destroyed her. She has nothing left.

Word is that as we speak, she’s being given an ultimatum by Brexit supporting MPs: Dutch the Chequers agreement and go for something harder or we are ousting you.

Her authority and her self-respect are in pieces. What is the point in her agreeing to an ultimatum like that, knowing that it would be rejected either by Brussels or by Parliament? Far better to gather what pride you have left and be the mistress of your own destiny.

So there was me saying that everyone’s pride has a bottom line and May might resign while she still has a scrap of dignity intact.

And then this. While she’s serving dinner to the most repulsive Kitson on earth and begging him to be nice to her. He regurgitates the bitter cod fed to him by Johnson and Farage.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44815558

For f**k’s sake woman, just go. Just go and take your f**king inadequacies somewhere where they aren’t associated with our entire national appearance.

History is watching you. You don’t deal with a Kitson like Trump by trying to normalise him. You choose which side you are on. You either get entirely into bed with him and his project. Or you f**king we’ll stand up to him and you don’t invite him for formal visits and you don’t debase yourself by flattering him.

May. You are the worst kind of craven embarrassment. Begging for support while your being played and humiliated by a vicious bully.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 12:33:37 am by BillyStubbsTears »

bpoolrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1835 on July 13, 2018, 02:13:58 am by bpoolrover »
Bst while you may be right as I’ve said in other posts John McDonell wanted a certain people in the ira to be given honours, why don’t you want rid of him? It baffles me while may might be incompetent she is nothing like him, if you can support him thank god I don’t live in your world

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1836 on July 13, 2018, 02:48:38 am by hoolahoop »
The smuggling is still going on and has been for years - where do you think the majority of the money raised from selling smuggling fags goes? Across the Irish Sea, that's where. There's been many a time I've listened with interest when I've been in pubs with some of the local hard men talking about 'no surrender' when they were smoking the fags that funded the IRA.

Glyn thanks for that correction it did read as if it would be starting up but what I meant to indicate was that there would be  an acceleration in the process at a time when some might think of pressing for that ultimate dream of a United Ireland . I think they used to label it somewhat affectionately " runs for guns ".

There never has been a better time with some disaffected young Protestants possibly more pro- Remain and perhaps more open to the idea of a " United Ireland " than their Protestant communities would care to admit ! Certainly the Catholics would appear to have the numbers if a push for a Referendum began.

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1837 on July 13, 2018, 03:08:09 am by hoolahoop »
Wilts and Hoola

My opinion for what it is worth.

Having lived in Northern Ireland for 5 years now, and talking to people over here, I don’t think anyone believes that the old troubles will return at the level they were before. It has to be remembered that when the Troubles started in 1969 there was real discrimination and inequality for Catholics, so they had a real cause, and consequently their paramilitaries had wide support from their communities. Loyalist paramilitaries also had similar support from their communities. The drastically improved peaceful situation over the last 20 years means no communities want to go back the the all out violence, and IMHO it  really is a few hotheads unsupported by their communities these days. Also there is always tension in the marching season, not only L/Derry but also Belfast has seen problems. In Belfast bonfires have gotten completely out of hand with respect to size and proximity to residential buildings, and there has been a reaction by other hotheads to the authorities trying to curb this.

Brexit has put political wind in republican’s sails, but the lack of devolved parliament here was due to a row over a botched renewable heating scheme, not Brexit. Also IMHO, a lack of the right personalities in senior positions is letting us down. I never thought I would ever say it, but we miss Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley Senior and their surprising good personal chemistry.

It is interesting that republicans voted by about 80-20 to remain, keeping the North close to RoI. Most Unionists only thought would have been to vote against anything wanted by Republicans, so voted leave by about 60-40.

I think it is fair to say all parties in NI are worried about Brexit’s negative effect on trade, tourism and investment, all of which are at levels not dreamed about 20 years ago. The film industry, led by Game of Thrones, is now a major factor over here.

Another thing unifying everyone here is that absolutely everyone is annoyed that all Uk politicians have ignored, minimised, underestimated the problem of the continued open border outside of Customs Union and Single market.

Just my own feelings on the ground over here.


Assuming you are right and you usually are, the difficulty I foresee is if and when the DUP or the Protestant community at large begins to feel there's an inevitable shift to a sell- out by the British Govt. ( not sure how that might happen ) or indeed what feels to them like an agitation for a Referendum on a United Ireland . They  would then most probably not have the numbers to prevent that happening .

Generally a large % of the population want to stay in the EU - there's no escaping that. The longer this mess continues and the people in N.I  feel used as pawns or start to fear for their jobs or more importantly their security then surely a growing majority of them may seek an inevitable medium to long  term goal of a " United " Ireland.

As in Scotland, the clamour to be unshackled from the Union can only grow stronger as this Govt. lurches into ever greater madness . S.O.S.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 07:44:55 am by hoolahoop »

Dutch Uncle

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1838 on July 13, 2018, 07:46:31 am by Dutch Uncle »
Hi Hools

I think any effect within Unionists that you describe is currently more than counter-balanced by the fact that far from all Catholics want a United Ireland. I’ll see if I can find the source later, but in a recent poll a majority of people in Northern Ireland were against a so called ‘Border Poll’, and surprisingly few Nationalists (less than 70% I think) wanted the poll. Nevertheless there is definitely the feel of a demographic ticking time-bomb.

Right now I am more annoyed at the President of the USA interfering in our politics to an unacceptable degree, whatever the failings of our current leader and party. I wonder where Trump learned that from?


Edit: An article (there are many more) on the Poll I was referring to. Your comments are not wrong in that the type of Brexit is seen as an issue, but indeed not all Nationalists are united on this.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/05/21/border-poll-recedes-as-polls-show-nationalist-support-for-unity-hinges-on-brexit-outcome/
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 07:57:33 am by Dutch Uncle »

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1839 on July 13, 2018, 08:16:30 am by Glyn_Wigley »
The smuggling is still going on and has been for years - where do you think the majority of the money raised from selling smuggling fags goes? Across the Irish Sea, that's where. There's been many a time I've listened with interest when I've been in pubs with some of the local hard men talking about 'no surrender' when they were smoking the fags that funded the IRA.

They only have to sit tight, it's not going to be long before the Catholics become the majority.

Glyn thanks for that correction it did read as if it would be starting up but what I meant to indicate was that there would be  an acceleration in the process at a time when some might think of pressing for that ultimate dream of a United Ireland . I think they used to label it somewhat affectionately " runs for guns ".

There never has been a better time with some disaffected young Protestants possibly more pro- Remain and perhaps more open to the idea of a " United Ireland " than their Protestant communities would care to admit ! Certainly the Catholics would appear to have the numbers if a push for a Referendum began.

RedJ

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1840 on July 13, 2018, 09:19:07 am by RedJ »
Bst while you may be right as I’ve said in other posts John McDonell wanted a certain people in the ira to be given honours, why don’t you want rid of him? It baffles me while may might be incompetent she is nothing like him, if you can support him thank god I don’t live in your world

Not really sure how any of this is to do with Brexit.

Boomstick

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1841 on July 13, 2018, 10:17:43 am by Boomstick »
Apart from Idler, I have still not read any other Brexiteer explain their reason or a reason that makes any sense or a reason that stands scrutiny, why Britain should leave the EU.

It's this lack of being able to articulate a sensible position for themselves or the country that makes me wonder if there is an underlying reason they don't wish to openly discuss or that they are embarrassed about being duped and made to look like complete and utter idiots by the likes of Farago and his ilk and they feel they cannot now change their positions.
So what's your opinion on the worse case scenario when we leave?
also, how and why will this affect the average joe on the street?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1842 on July 13, 2018, 10:29:41 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Boomstick

Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.

When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1843 on July 13, 2018, 11:19:13 am by hoolahoop »
Hi Hools

I think any effect within Unionists that you describe is currently more than counter-balanced by the fact that far from all Catholics want a United Ireland. I’ll see if I can find the source later, but in a recent poll a majority of people in Northern Ireland were against a so called ‘Border Poll’, and surprisingly few Nationalists (less than 70% I think) wanted the poll. Nevertheless there is definitely the feel of a demographic ticking time-bomb.

Right now I am more annoyed at the President of the USA interfering in our politics to an unacceptable degree, whatever the failings of our current leader and party. I wonder where Trump learned that from?


Edit: An article (there are many more) on the Poll I was referring to. Your comments are not wrong in that the type of Brexit is seen as an issue, but indeed not all Nationalists are united on this.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/05/21/border-poll-recedes-as-polls-show-nationalist-support-for-unity-hinges-on-brexit-outcome/

Thanks DU for that update but 6 nights of rioting in the Bogside would seems to contradict that somewhat - the demographic seems to be shifting and I think there will be moves towards a unified Ireland and retention of EU membership soon.

Like you I'm infuriated by this tw#t and his disgraceful behaviour - seems Farage is pulling his strings ! I don't like her but to suggest that the UK might benefit from a Boris premiership is 1) inappropriate 2) downright ridiculous . We are a sovereign country and we are hosting a President who is clearly hostile not only to the Maybot, but Europe , NATO, Women, Moslems . It's disgraceful !!

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1844 on July 13, 2018, 11:21:34 am by hoolahoop »
Boomstick

Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.

When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?

Billy he probably parachutes out .

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1845 on July 13, 2018, 11:30:55 am by BillyStubbsTears »
There’s no question that he’s repeating Farage’s lies about UK politics. They are two peas in a pod and big buddies. Not least because Farage was one of the ones who smoothed the path between Trump and the Russians.

There was an example a few weeks ago of Farage making some outrageous lie about the NHS on Fox News. Within a couple of hours, Trump was repeating the same lie.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1846 on July 13, 2018, 11:50:43 am by Glyn_Wigley »
Boomstick

Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.

When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?

Billy he probably parachutes out .

Not without asking everyone for their opinion of the workmanship of the parachute maker!

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1847 on July 13, 2018, 01:05:45 pm by hoolahoop »
There’s no question that he’s repeating Farage’s lies about UK politics. They are two peas in a pod and big buddies. Not least because Farage was one of the ones who smoothed the path between Trump and the Russians.

There was an example a few weeks ago of Farage making some outrageous lie about the NHS on Fox News. Within a couple of hours, Trump was repeating the same lie.

Farage was on Andrew Neil's flagship programme " This Week " last night and if you watch the interview with him he sort of alludes to exactly that in his usual sneaky way . Neil has been promoting this dangerous prick for years . He ( Farage ) just picks up the phone and the BBC drop their trousers for him to get yet more coverage to persue his Far Right agenda

Question to Farage:- Have you been winding him up about all this ( Brexit ) ?
Answer:- We've had a little chat about all this .

* Farage has his hand all over this *
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 01:10:47 pm by hoolahoop »

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1848 on July 13, 2018, 01:15:04 pm by hoolahoop »
Boomstick

Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.

When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?

Billy he probably parachutes out .

Not without asking everyone for their opinion of the workmanship of the parachute maker!

Haha

Boomstick

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1849 on July 13, 2018, 01:17:48 pm by Boomstick »
Boomstick

Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.

When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?
why not answer the question?
Just trying to understand the remoaner side of the argument.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1850 on July 13, 2018, 01:23:12 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I TOLD you my take. The worst that can happen is an 8% drop in GDP is we leave without a deal.

The consequences of that? Well it’s difficult to say as there hasn’t been a recession in more than a century that knocked 8% off GDP. But at a minimum:

Massive hike in unemployment.
Massive increase in Govt deficits, leading (under this Govt) to huge decreases in public spending (that’s less money on schools and hospitals and roads and social housing)
Reduction in wages and pensions.
Reduction in defence spending.
Permanently poorer country compared to European neighbours.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1851 on July 13, 2018, 01:24:39 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
And unless you want to be treated with contempt, stop using that f**king stupid word “Remoaner”. It immediately marks you as someone who is more interested in abuse and argument than in grown up discussion.

Boomstick

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1852 on July 13, 2018, 01:31:12 pm by Boomstick »
so as a remoaner, are you not moaning about the consequences of brexit (whatever they may be?)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 01:33:20 pm by Boomstick »

RedJ

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1853 on July 13, 2018, 01:42:09 pm by RedJ »
Almost as if you don't want people to take you seriously...

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1854 on July 13, 2018, 01:47:07 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I’m pointing out the consequences of Brexit. They are seriously negative. There isn’t an economist in Britain who questions that.
You want to call that moaning? Fine. Your choice.

Personally, I call it trying to save idiots like you from your own f**king stupidity.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1855 on July 13, 2018, 02:04:08 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Almost as if you don't want people to take you seriously...

You don't think anyone does, do you? :eek:

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1856 on July 13, 2018, 07:01:32 pm by hoolahoop »
Boomstick

Why are you so obsessed about people’s opinions, and not interested in the predictions by people whose job it is to study these things.

When you get on a plane, do you go round the passengers asking what their opinion is on the airworthiness of the plane? Or do you trust the skills of the people whose job it is to assess it?
why not answer the question?
Just trying to understand the remoaner side of the argument.

Broomstick-
Whataboutery , obfuscation and not one damn idea you can back up with any meaningful statistics. Someone asks you to justify your opinion or come up with up how you see see things panning out for the future you whataboutery every time .

Admit it you are just trolling this topic without a frigging idea of your own . I have told you countless times that in these 62 pages are contained all the statistics you would ever need to realise why Brexit is not a good idea, why it costs, the effects it will have on our Services, our Security, our Students , our Travel, our Health etc etc.

Why people are still wasting time trying to debate with you is beyond me . Personally you are diverting people from debating the real issues. Meanwhile you are like that little kid in the corner that keeps putting his hand up crying " miss, miss, miss , me me me " to the consternation of everyone but when you have your opportunity -  you have nothing to say,
Btw drop the Remoaner shite will you - it's childish , apt but childish
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 07:04:09 pm by hoolahoop »

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1857 on July 13, 2018, 09:17:20 pm by wilts rover »
Bst while you may be right as I’ve said in other posts John McDonell wanted a certain people in the ira to be given honours, why don’t you want rid of him? It baffles me while may might be incompetent she is nothing like him, if you can support him thank god I don’t live in your world

Not really sure how any of this is to do with Brexit.

You are quite correct Blackpool in that yes McDonnell did call for for former IRA men to be honoured. What you appear to have missed though is that he has has said he was wrong and has apologised for saying it on several ocassions since.

And yes again you are correct he is very different to May. For instance he has not deported dozens of British pensioners, removing their pensions rights and leaving them with no means of supporting themselves in the process, to countries they never lived or last lived in as infants. Nor has he allowed the sale of munitions in the knowledge they would be passed on to terrorist groups including ISIS.

And yes it does have to do with Brexit in that McDonnell has constantly warned against any sort of Brexit deal (or no-deal) that imposes a border in Ireland. As he knows the possible/probable risks that will bring and he does not want to see a return to violence on the island. Again as you say, he appears to know a bit about what goes on there.

You and Mrs May (lest we forget no deal is still better than a bad deal) appear to think these warnings are fake and there is nothing to worry about. John McDonnell is backed up in his concerns by the Police Service of Northern Ireland - who are you backed up by? Boomstick & Jacob Rees Mogg?

Thanks to Dutch Uncle for your views on the situation. My somewhat more pessimistic point of view is that the there are clearly people in NI who will use any small point of tension for their own gain. It's 6 nights of rioting in Derry now, cars and buses burnt out and a bomb thrown in Belfast. Who knows where that might go?

On a united Ireland, this poll, which is later than your Dutch, appears to suggest more people in the north now support it than they do staying in the UK.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-united-ireland-referendum-northern-border-uk-yougov-poll-a8389086.html



bpoolrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1858 on July 13, 2018, 11:57:28 pm by bpoolrover »
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1859 on July 14, 2018, 01:04:37 am by hoolahoop »
Bst while you may be right as I’ve said in other posts John McDonell wanted a certain people in the ira to be given honours, why don’t you want rid of him? It baffles me while may might be incompetent she is nothing like him, if you can support him thank god I don’t live in your world

Not really sure how any of this is to do with Brexit.

You are quite correct Blackpool in that yes McDonnell did call for for former IRA men to be honoured. What you appear to have missed though is that he has has said he was wrong and has apologised for saying it on several ocassions since.

And yes again you are correct he is very different to May. For instance he has not deported dozens of British pensioners, removing their pensions rights and leaving them with no means of supporting themselves in the process, to countries they never lived or last lived in as infants. Nor has he allowed the sale of munitions in the knowledge they would be passed on to terrorist groups including ISIS.

And yes it does have to do with Brexit in that McDonnell has constantly warned against any sort of Brexit deal (or no-deal) that imposes a border in Ireland. As he knows the possible/probable risks that will bring and he does not want to see a return to violence on the island. Again as you say, he appears to know a bit about what goes on there.

You and Mrs May (lest we forget no deal is still better than a bad deal) appear to think these warnings are fake and there is nothing to worry about. John McDonnell is backed up in his concerns by the Police Service of Northern Ireland - who are you backed up by? Boomstick & Jacob Rees Mogg?

Thanks to Dutch Uncle for your views on the situation. My somewhat more pessimistic point of view is that the there are clearly people in NI who will use any small point of tension for their own gain. It's 6 nights of rioting in Derry now, cars and buses burnt out and a bomb thrown in Belfast. Who knows where that might go?

On a united Ireland, this poll, which is later than your Dutch, appears to suggest more people in the north now support it than they do staying in the UK.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-united-ireland-referendum-northern-border-uk-yougov-poll-a8389086.html




Thank you wilts that's the poll that try as I might I couldn't lay my hands on earlier hence DU correcting me . Reading his post earlier reminds me that even the eye of our statistician in chief is fallible on occasions . However I do appreciate that he does have his nose to the ground there in a way that I haven't .
As for the opinions of  bpool , boomstick and other Brexiters ( sounds wonderful doesnt it , almost swashbuckling by design of course ) , they seem totally guided and unshakeable even against the huge weight of evidence against them. Eventually the straws they clutch will break but by then it may well be too late .

 

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