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Author Topic: Brexit Negotiations  (Read 47090 times)

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hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1860 on July 14, 2018, 01:25:21 AM by hoolahoop »
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!

Move on poolie please , I have a lot of sympathy with your stance on this matter but I think you have now made your point in the strongest  terms .
There are many MPS and MEPS that have far more baggage in terms of previous statements made, beliefs held etc....

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1861 on July 14, 2018, 04:44:53 AM by SydneyRover »
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!

Move on poolie please , I have a lot of sympathy with your stance on this matter but I think you have now made your point in the strongest  terms .
There are many MPS and MEPS that have far more baggage in terms of previous statements made, beliefs held etc....

Agreed, how far would you like this conversation to go back, which wars should we discus and what the various people of those times said? we are all guilty of something.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1862 on July 14, 2018, 08:07:26 AM by Glyn_Wigley »
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!

It didn't stop people voting for him.

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1863 on July 14, 2018, 08:58:45 AM by wilts rover »
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!

You had best tell that to the people who voted for him.

You should also concentrate your mind on matters which are far more important to people in the UK (NI in particular) today and have a good think on what the consequences of your views are.

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1864 on July 14, 2018, 09:40:28 AM by SydneyRover »
So saying sorry makes it right does it, innocent people children have been blown up but sorry is ok, he should not be a mp with sick comments like that!

You had best tell that to the people who voted for him.

You should also concentrate your mind on matters which are far more important to people in the UK (NI in particular) today and have a good think on what the consequences of your views are.

Good point Wilts, all those people on the bread line now due to the purely political austrerity program will be pushed further and further into poverty, Ive never suffered poverty but being poor at time was hard enough, I would never wish that on anyone.

Dutch Uncle

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1865 on July 14, 2018, 10:38:45 AM by Dutch Uncle »
Wilts & Hoola

Many thanks for your responses re Northern Ireland, and by the way I was not correcting anyone, just giving an opinion. I hadn’t seen the more recent poll which is indeed alarming from my point of view.

I am by nature easily alarmed by such things, despite all the reassuring by my wife, her family and friends over here. But we live in Bangor, sufficiently far from the current fault lines, and maybe we are a bit complacent.

My gut feeling is that as the spectre of hard or no deal Brexit increases (be it for real or for negotiating purposes) then confidence in an open border and soft Brexit erodes, meaning more people are starting to think a United Ireland is a better idea. Nevertheless I stand by my opinion that the level of community support for province wide coordinated  violence is simply no longer there, and although things can spiral quickly, no-one wants to return to that.

It will be interesting to see what happens after the 12th fortnight marching season disappears in the rear view mirror. If things do not quieten down I will be less complacent for sure.

I would be interested in the views of anyone else on here who lives in or regularly visits Northern Ireland.

Edit: P.S. Many thanks, but I am most definitely not ‘statistician in chief’ on here - in my eyes that title is strictly reserved for The Red Baron.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 10:47:31 AM by Dutch Uncle »

bpoolrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1866 on July 14, 2018, 05:44:42 PM by bpoolrover »
A bit like brexit which is what people voted for but your not saying that's ok?

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1867 on July 14, 2018, 07:24:55 PM by hoolahoop »
Wilts & Hoola

Many thanks for your responses re Northern Ireland, and by the way I was not correcting anyone, just giving an opinion. I hadn’t seen the more recent poll which is indeed alarming from my point of view.

I am by nature easily alarmed by such things, despite all the reassuring by my wife, her family and friends over here. But we live in Bangor, sufficiently far from the current fault lines, and maybe we are a bit complacent.

My gut feeling is that as the spectre of hard or no deal Brexit increases (be it for real or for negotiating purposes) then confidence in an open border and soft Brexit erodes, meaning more people are starting to think a United Ireland is a better idea. Nevertheless I stand by my opinion that the level of community support for province wide coordinated  violence is simply no longer there, and although things can spiral quickly, no-one wants to return to that.

It will be interesting to see what happens after the 12th fortnight marching season disappears in the rear view mirror. If things do not quieten down I will be less complacent for sure.

I would be interested in the views of anyone else on here who lives in or regularly visits Northern Ireland.

Edit: P.S. Many thanks, but I am most definitely not ‘statistician in chief’ on here - in my eyes that title is strictly reserved for The Red Baron.

I never felt corrected as such as I have always found your contributions over the years erudite and respectful of others points of views.
Your current " insider " knowledge out there on the ground as our Rovering reporter is a real bonus too. 

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1868 on July 14, 2018, 09:18:09 PM by wilts rover »
No problem Dutch I am glad to be able to pass the information on. If I can echo what Hoola has said it is always good to have first hand information from someone who knows what they are talking about and I have no doubt that NI will be a subject that will be cropping in one form or another in future months.


SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1869 on July 15, 2018, 07:44:01 AM by SydneyRover »
A bit like brexit which is what people voted for but your not saying that's ok?

There you go again Blackpool, distorting and twisting the conversation to your own view, we have established beyond doubt that those voting to leave have been deceived and humiliated by various nefarious entities od which gave an honest appraisal of the real picture even if they could. Which is why May doesnt know her arse from her elbow when it comes to which idiot to back in her own party.

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1870 on July 15, 2018, 08:38:52 AM by hoolahoop »
A bit like brexit which is what people voted for but your not saying that's ok?

There you go again Blackpool, distorting and twisting the conversation to your own view, we have established beyond doubt that those voting to leave have been deceived and humiliated by various nefarious entities od which gave an honest appraisal of the real picture even if they could. Which is why May doesnt know her arse from her elbow when it comes to which idiot to back in her own party.

Sadly despite all the warnings , statistics and comments on these 63 pages bpool and others still continue to peddle their nonsense ( rarely if ever  based on facts ) ; what's more they continue when asked a direct question to answer with a daft question. It is obvious what we Remainers would do , we would keep what we've got with a view that our leaders would fight for change where necessary. Those same leaders would actually use the sensible powers they currently don't exercise over our immigration policy and in other areas of contention seeking to resolve these issues with the help of others where possible.

My personal hope, as an avowed Europhile, was ALWAYS that our voice in Europe would be a constructive one at every level , particularly at MEP level - an area of governance that was sadly misused .
Years of poor representation  followed , when increasingly our UKIP MEPs, in particular, sought to fight and destroy  the EU rather than look after the interests of 100%  of their electorate  responsibly .

I 'get' that there were intrinsic weaknesses in the EU  project however those weaknesses were always far far outweighed by all the good that has been brought to the people of Europe - peace, prosperity, stability, ease of trade and movement of people for work, pleasure and retirement.

Underpinning all of the above was a structure no less accountable, democratic  or unwieldy than our own governed by a rule of law and decent standards that we can all recognise .

Against this I ask once again " Leavers " you offer what exactly  ?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 08:47:22 AM by hoolahoop »

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1871 on July 15, 2018, 08:52:15 AM by SydneyRover »
A bit like brexit which is what people voted for but your not saying that's ok?

There you go again Blackpool, distorting and twisting the conversation to your own view, we have established beyond doubt that those voting to leave have been deceived and humiliated by various nefarious entities od which gave an honest appraisal of the real picture even if they could. Which is why May doesnt know her arse from her elbow when it comes to which idiot to back in her own party.

Sadly despite all the warnings , statistics and comments on these 63 pages bpool and others still continue to peddle their nonsense ( rarely if ever  based on facts ) ; what's more they continue when asked a direct question to answer with a daft question. It is obvious what we Remainers would do , we would keep what we've got with a view that our leaders would fight for change where necessary. Those same leaders would actually use the sensible powers they currently don't exercise over our immigration policy and in other areas of contention seeking to resolve these issues with the help of others where possible.

My personal hope, as an avowed Europhile, was ALWAYS that our voice in Europe would be a constructive one at every level , particularly at MEP level - an area of governance that was sadly misused .
Years of poor representation  followed , when increasingly our UKIP MEPs, in particular, sought to fight and destroy  the EU rather than look after the interests of 100%  of their electorate  responsibly .

I 'get' that there were intrinsic weaknesses in the EU  project however those weaknesses were always far far outweighed by all the good that has been brought to the people of Europe - peace, prosperity, stability, ease of trade and movement of people for work, pleasure and retirement.

Underpinning all of the above was a structure no less accountable, democratic  or unwieldy than our own governed by a rule of law and decent standards that we can all recognise .

Against this I ask once again " Leavers " you offer what exactly  ?

A rosy view of a Britain that never ever existed.

hoolahoop

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1872 on July 15, 2018, 09:44:59 AM by hoolahoop »
One that will never return......

Padge_DRFC

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1873 on July 15, 2018, 11:25:16 AM by Padge_DRFC »
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1874 on July 15, 2018, 11:42:16 AM by SydneyRover »
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?
You may have to give us a few more details and try and separate what you mean from what you want. If you want Britain free to do deals with those outside the EU without breaking contracts with the EU then you/we lose everything we now gain from being partners with the richest trading block in the world. Go ahead tell us what you want.

In fact thats a good idea, you tell us what you and the diminishing band of Brexiters want and we will tell you what you will lose or cannot have it will be easier that way.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:46:12 AM by SydneyRover »

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1875 on July 15, 2018, 01:03:55 PM by Glyn_Wigley »
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

I'd say it's a shame we're throwing away all those we already have as part of the EU. Sure, we might get them all back - eventually, and years down the road after the damage has already been done to our economy -  but it'll be on worse terms than at present due to the origin status only covering goods from the UK and not from anywhere in the EU.

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1876 on July 15, 2018, 01:26:57 PM by wilts rover »
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1877 on July 16, 2018, 01:09:24 AM by SydneyRover »
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.

What is b*llocks Wilts is that you post comments without citations, a lot depends upon what the conditions are when trade is done with non-EU countries, you think an independent Britain alone would have as much clout as the EU in trade negotiations?

https://www.cer.eu/insights/would-britain%E2%80%99s-trade-be-freer-outside-eu

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1878 on July 16, 2018, 01:19:23 AM by SydneyRover »
what are remainers thoughts on the EU holding us back from trade deals with the rest of the world?

It's clearly b*llocks as 55% of our trade is already done with the rest of the world! It clearly also doesn't hold other EU countries back as Germany does a huge amount of trade with China for instance. Last year their trade with China was 186 billion euros against our 60 billion euros.
It only took a couple of minutes to find these below, knock yourself out and find some articles that say Britain wouod be better off outside the EU


Last week, former trade minister Mark Price tweeted that all of these non-EU countries “have agreed to roll over” their EU agreements with the UK. When trade secretary Liam Fox was questioned about this comment in a select committee hearing on 1st November, he conceded that “it is not quite as simple as rolling them over,”

https://cer.eu/in-the-press/eu-has-36-free-trade-deals-non-eu-countries-will-they-roll-over-britain-after-brexit


Could an EU member state negotiate its own trade deal with the UK after the UK leaves the EU?

https://www.quora.com/Could-an-EU-member-state-negotiate-its-own-trade-deal-with-the-UK-after-the-UK-leaves-the-EU

10 facts about EU trade deals
As a member of the European Union, UK business benefits from easy access to a single
market of 500 million consumers. As well as opening up markets on the UK’s doorstep, the
EU facilitates trade further afield with EU trade deals providing preferential access to
global markets, from South Africa to South Korea.

http://www.cbi.org.uk/business-issues/brexit-and-eu-negotiations/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-eu-trade-deals-pdf/


The five alternatives to EU single market and customs union would all make UK poorer

http://theconversation.com/the-five-alternatives-to-eu-single-market-and-customs-union-would-all-make-uk-poorer-92228

bpoolrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1879 on July 16, 2018, 02:43:21 AM by bpoolrover »
A question about the bottom link Sydney, now those figures might be right I have no idea but how can they be perticulary accurate when no 1 knows what trade deals we will or won’t get?

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1880 on July 16, 2018, 08:36:41 AM by Glyn_Wigley »
A question about the bottom link Sydney, now those figures might be right I have no idea but how can they be perticulary accurate when no 1 knows what trade deals we will or won’t get?

That last link is only about trade between the UK and the EU. The figures may or may not be completely accurate, but whatever trade deal we have with the EU afterwards will mean goods being more expensive to import and our exports being more expensive to our customers. And that will be the result just of the re-imposition of Customs Declarations for UK/EU movements, and not taking any other checks, delays, Duty costs or VAT costs into account.

RedJ

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1881 on July 16, 2018, 09:18:29 AM by RedJ »
Remember this is a man who thinks that giving bits of the NHS to private companies isn't privatisation, Glyn.

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1882 on July 16, 2018, 09:56:37 AM by The Red Baron »
An interesting intervention from a Tory Remainer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154

Although I think her idea of a three-option Referendum is for the birds, I do accept her point that there doesn't appear to be a consensus in Parliament for any option. In that case some kind of Referendum on the final deal agreed with the EU might be the only way to break the log-jam.

Although the options would have to be binary. Leave with the deal or Leave with No Deal or, Leave with the deal or Remain.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1883 on July 16, 2018, 10:28:09 AM by Glyn_Wigley »
An interesting intervention from a Tory Remainer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154

Although I think her idea of a three-option Referendum is for the birds, I do accept her point that there doesn't appear to be a consensus in Parliament for any option. In that case some kind of Referendum on the final deal agreed with the EU might be the only way to break the log-jam.

Although the options would have to be binary. Leave with the deal or Leave with No Deal or, Leave with the deal or Remain.

It doesn't have to be binary at all. If the only referendum options were Leave with deal or Leave with no deal, the Remain Movement would tell all remainers to spoil their ballot papers. These have to be accounted for, so what do you think would be the democratic position if the number of spoilt papers was greater than those with a valid vote? A Preference vote should cover all main bases.

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1884 on July 16, 2018, 11:45:04 AM by The Red Baron »
If it isn't binary it will cause a lot of confusion and probably will end up with a three-way split. I would have thought Remainers would be more likely to vote for the least-worst option. It's the Leavers who are more likely to call for boycotts (just because it's a second vote that we were told wouldn't happen).

It is probably not going to happen but until there is some sort of consensus in Parliament around what deal is acceptable, I can't see a lot of alternatives. Maybe we will end up with No-Deal Brexit simply because no-one can agree on an alternative.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1885 on July 16, 2018, 12:52:59 PM by Glyn_Wigley »
If it isn't binary it will cause a lot of confusion and probably will end up with a three-way split. I would have thought Remainers would be more likely to vote for the least-worst option. It's the Leavers who are more likely to call for boycotts (just because it's a second vote that we were told wouldn't happen).

It is probably not going to happen but until there is some sort of consensus in Parliament around what deal is acceptable, I can't see a lot of alternatives. Maybe we will end up with No-Deal Brexit simply because no-one can agree on an alternative.

You won't have a three-way split using a preference vote, you'll get an option with an overall majority.

bpoolrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1886 on July 16, 2018, 12:54:34 PM by bpoolrover »
What would happen if people voted leave with no deal would you accept that thou or demand a 3rd referendum?

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1887 on July 16, 2018, 01:07:51 PM by Glyn_Wigley »
What would happen if people voted leave with no deal would you accept that thou or demand a 3rd referendum?

Probably as much as you'd accept a remain result.

bpoolrover

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1888 on July 16, 2018, 01:11:36 PM by bpoolrover »
So what's the point then if you won't accept it, and yes if the 1st vote had been remain then so be it

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit Negotiations
« Reply #1889 on July 16, 2018, 01:43:03 PM by Glyn_Wigley »
Where have I said I won't accept it?