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Author Topic: Trump  (Read 32445 times)

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BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #120 on May 17, 2018, 10:31:52 am by BillyStubbsTears »
BB

No. He didn’t differentiate. If YOU are reading differentiation into his words then good for you. But others won’t. They’ll read what he actually said.



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Bentley Bullet

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Re: Trump
« Reply #121 on May 17, 2018, 11:08:47 am by Bentley Bullet »
Others like you won't. Those like me will.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #122 on May 17, 2018, 02:00:14 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I think you’re missing the lesson of history here B.B.

Bad things don’t start because of someone saying “Let’s do really bad things” and everyone joining in.

They start because evil people aren’t believed when they say really bad things. Because right-thinking people excuse it. Or rationalise it. Or don’t believe it and cut them some slack. And then, over time, the bad things get normalised.

Godwin’s Law. When Hitler became Chancellor, the majority of right thinking Germans didn’t believe he was going to do half the things he said. He didn’t start gassing Jews immediately. He started off by repeatedly calling them (ALL of them) a menace. He called them enemies. He called them sub-human. And over time, it became normalised. And then when he started putting his plans into practice, bit by bit, it seemed like an acceptable thing to do.

If right thinking people like you think that it’s OK for Trump to call an entire bunch of people “animals” and “not people”, because YOU think he doesn’t mean what he says then you’re on the first step on that road. Not deliberately, but you’re on it anyway.

RedJ

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Re: Trump
« Reply #123 on May 17, 2018, 02:50:31 pm by RedJ »
Aye and anyone who disagrees gets branded a namby pamby lily livered do gooder. :laugh:

MachoMadness

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Re: Trump
« Reply #124 on May 17, 2018, 03:06:18 pm by MachoMadness »
Spot on that BST. As you've already brought up Godwin's Law:

The regime in Nazi Germany was without doubt an evil regime. But was everyone living in Germany really that evil? They can't have been. After WWII, Germany rebuilt and are one of our biggest trading partners now, and a fair few of the people who lived during that regime are still alive. They're ordinary people. Were the soldiers working in the concentration camps any more good or evil than our soldiers? Were they any more good or evil than any of us posting on here? I don't think so on the whole. Yet under those circumstances, ordinary people were perfectly willing to send thousands of men, women and children to their deaths. To rip gold teeth out of dead people's heads, and kick the bodies into an oven. Ordinary people - some of whom are still alive today, no doubt - did that. That kind of thing doesn't just happen, it takes years of conditioning for normal folk like anyone posting on here to behave like that.

As BST says, this is the first step on that road. You take a grain of something - a news report of an illegal immigrant murdering somebody, for example - and you focus your message on that. Before long, the issue moves from that one stat or news story into more general terms. Then all illegal immigrants murder people. Then as you hammer home the message more and more, it changes again. Then it's all immigrants who murder people. Then it's anyone from the Commonwealth. Then it's anyone of a different race, or religion. By that point, you've made those people into something less than human. They're "animals" and "cockroaches", so you can do what you like with them.

This isn't just some liberal lefty PC brigade thing, this is properly scary stuff.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #125 on May 17, 2018, 03:26:05 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
MM

Bang on. When Hitler became Chancellor, the political establishment thought that he’d been run thumping about Jews as an electoral strategy. They thought that he didn’t really mean it, but he’d just used that to gain support because the German people were suffering and they wanted someone to point the finger at. They thought that they could harness that and control it.

They had no idea that he was normalising hatred and that it would lead to Dachau and Auscwitz.

History goes in cycles. We forget that these things can happen. We think there was something uniquely evil about Hitler and the German people. We assume that we are better and smarter. Give it enough time and we assume that we’ve become too civilised to make the same mistakes. And so America ends up electing a nasty, venal, corrupt, hateful man. And when he says dangerously hateful things, people find ways to justify it. And the whole cycle potentially starts again.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Trump
« Reply #126 on May 17, 2018, 05:13:26 pm by Bentley Bullet »
BST. Why is Godwin's Law so maligned and ridiculed when anybody else uses it apart from you?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #127 on May 17, 2018, 05:54:41 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BB
I didn’t know it was. I don’t remember ever maligning it. Maybe you should ask folk who do.

Have you ever read Don Quixote?

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Trump
« Reply #128 on May 17, 2018, 06:12:33 pm by Bentley Bullet »
Well, I was of the understanding that its use was considered to be a desperate measure to avoid conceding the argument.

Regarding Don Quixote, Don't tell me - You base yourself on him?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #129 on May 17, 2018, 06:42:11 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
No. It is a witty observation that as the length of an Internet discussion extends to infinity, the probability of someone mentioning Hitler tends towards 1.

It was originally observed because people who were getting exasperated with someone else’s argument would say “you’re just like Hitler/Nazis/fascists.”

Thing is, sometimes there are very good reasons for mentioning Hitler in a discussion. Like, for example, when a nasty and amoral world leader has just branded a whole group of people “sub-human”. Pointing out the parallels with Hitler seem blindingly obvious to me in those circumstances.

I mentioned Godwin as a moment of self-deprecation. I thought that was obvious too, but clearly not.

As far as Don Quixote is concerned, you seem to end up tilting at windmills every time outlr paths cross. I assumed you were a fan.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Trump
« Reply #130 on May 17, 2018, 07:12:01 pm by Bentley Bullet »
If what you said was true that Trump branded a whole group of people "sub-human" then I'd agree with you, but if he was referring to MS-13, murdering drug dealing rapists, as I believe he was, I don't!

selby

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Re: Trump
« Reply #131 on May 20, 2018, 07:59:50 pm by selby »
  Looks like he has won another one, last Friday, the U.S.A. suspended a threat of punitive tariffs imposed on goods from China, thus avoiding the threat of a trade war at the moment,  when China agreed to import £148 billion of American goods to reduce the imbalance on imported values of goods.
   

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #132 on May 21, 2018, 08:39:37 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Selby

There’s only been one source for that claim that China has agreed to buy $200bn more of American goods. That’s from the Trump administration.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/20/us/politics/mnuchin-kudlow-china-trade.html#click=https://t.co/nL63oX3oTR

“And while Trump administration officials said last week that China was prepared to increase its purchases of American products by $200 billion by 2020, Chinese officials had pushed back on that claim, and the joint statement the two sides released lacked any such dollar figure.

“Mr. Kudlow had told reporters outside of the White House on Friday that the Chinese had offered at least $200 billion in new purchases of American goods. On Sunday, he walked that back.

“Maybe I got ahead of the curve but the number 200 billion deficit reduction, which is something the president likes, has been around by all the people on both sides,” he said. “But it’s too soon to lock that in.””

One day it’ll sink in. If it comes out of the mouth of Trump or one of his lackeys (especially one with a track record like Larry Kudlow’s) it’s a fair bet that it’s a lie.

selby

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Re: Trump
« Reply #133 on May 21, 2018, 11:08:33 pm by selby »
Billy the Dow up 300 points, the guys with the bucks like it, and  so do I, a nice little scalp betting long.
  Yep I have poor taste. I will leave the rights and wrongs in the world to other people.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #134 on May 22, 2018, 12:07:31 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Stock markets are up all over the world. The world’s stock markets have been going through a mini boom over the past 2 years. Including the Italian Borsa which is up nearly 60% on where it was in summer 2016. Stock market performance is rarely correlated with the real economy. So the Dow going up means nothing whatsoever about Trump’s policies (not least because he’s barely passed a policy yet, such has been his historic inability to work with Congress).

But that’s an easy mistake to make. It’s your last sentence that real worries me.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 12:13:02 am by BillyStubbsTears »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #135 on May 22, 2018, 12:23:41 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Oh yeah. But Trump has just suspended his trade war with China. A few days after this news.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-emoluments-clause-indonesia-project-500-million-china-golf-course-norm-eisen-a8353296.html%3famp

Surely that’s a coincidence, no? Or maybe we just shouldn’t worry about the rights and wrongs,eh?

selby

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Re: Trump
« Reply #136 on May 22, 2018, 09:29:45 am by selby »
  Billy, it is up because it was on the floor, much like others in Europe at the time.
   The bond market, a much more defined market is still having a hard time, the big boys with £millions to invest are not going to invest at 0.27% for two year bonds, and their 10yr bonds are still behind the US. A better indicator of how they are doing.
   Having said that I expect the new coalition government to pull back on some of their more extreme statements as time goes on, but a place I don't touch with any investment.
   The level of unsecured debt is significant, and should be a worry to everyone in the Euro area.

Filo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #137 on May 22, 2018, 09:41:12 am by Filo »
Talking of investments, I remember the experts telling us at the time of the brexit vote that the stock market would go through the floor, at the time I was worried and nearly pulled my investments out, glad I did n't now as my investment has grown by 30% since the brexit vote

selby

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Re: Trump
« Reply #138 on May 22, 2018, 09:55:07 am by selby »
  Filo, much the same here with my real shares, I have limited my day trading to just a few stocks that I think I can trust my judgment, keep to tight limits  setting stops, and don't try to get too greedy, and don't get in too deep.
   I had some torrid times getting into this type of trading losing on a regular basis, but stuck at it and latched on to a couple of great traders who took me through the ropes.
   I just make a few bob, and don't get in over my head, gambling with   their money if possible, I have bad days and would not recommend anyone to just get into it without a lot of time, and willpower to know when to get out, and trade on a couple of fantasy forums for a couple of years before taking the plunge.

Filo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #139 on May 22, 2018, 10:02:07 am by Filo »
  Filo, much the same here with my real shares, I have limited my day trading to just a few stocks that I think I can trust my judgment, keep to tight limits  setting stops, and don't try to get too greedy, and don't get in too deep.
   I had some torrid times getting into this type of trading losing on a regular basis, but stuck at it and latched on to a couple of great traders who took me through the ropes.
   I just make a few bob, and don't get in over my head, gambling with   their money if possible, I have bad days and would not recommend anyone to just get into it without a lot of time, and willpower to know when to get out, and trade on a couple of fantasy forums for a couple of years before taking the plunge.

Not even in it that deep mate, just got mine in medium risk stocks and shares ISA

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #140 on May 22, 2018, 10:06:22 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Filo

I don’t recall anyone predicting a Stock Market crash. The point about Brexit is that it will lead to a long, slow decline relative to the rest of the world.

On which note...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d44966ce-1c97-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6

Just realised that’s behind a paywall. Here’s a shameless rip off of it.

https://www.ozy.com/acumen/global-investors-shun-uk-stock-market/85322
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 11:09:37 am by BillyStubbsTears »

selby

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Re: Trump
« Reply #141 on May 22, 2018, 10:11:25 am by selby »
Good move that Filo, but still watch the trends, there will come another time when it will be the best to cash out, and if possible get back in when they hit something like a bottom.
   Best of luck to you, it is far better than just leaving it in a bank losing money.
   I can never understand why there is nothing said about banks paying a higher % in dividends than interest on deposits.

MachoMadness

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Re: Trump
« Reply #142 on May 22, 2018, 10:47:38 am by MachoMadness »
Stock markets aren't always connected to the health of an economy. Usually they are, but the stock market can adapt and recover after extraordinary events like Brexit. They're always looking forward, so naturally if an economy is stagnant the markets will rise eventually as the stock markets recover what they lost. Also they generally aren't tied to wages, so I'm not sure making a few extra quid on stocks in the short-term will help your kids out when their wages are still stagnant and they end up provably poorer, year after year, than they would have been.

selby

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Re: Trump
« Reply #143 on May 22, 2018, 03:15:15 pm by selby »
  Macho, don't give me how poor kids are now. They will have to grow some, get on with life, and do what previous generations have done, get over problems,look to the future and flourish.
   Imagine being 18yrs old in 1914 or  1939, they don't know how lucky they are.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Trump
« Reply #144 on May 22, 2018, 04:02:17 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
There speaks a member of the most selfish generation in history. The Baby Boomers have had it all, pulled the ladder up behind them and told the younger generation to grow a pair and get on with life.

MachoMadness

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Re: Trump
« Reply #145 on May 22, 2018, 04:24:41 pm by MachoMadness »
BST is spot on there. I'm a millennial, so I get a bit pissed off at boomers who had the chance to buy a house, who reaped all the benefits of postwar socialist policies, who lived in towns like Mexborough when they had thriving industries and lots of jobs, who could go to university without being hammered with debt, who had a decent amount of help and welfare when they needed it, had high potential for social mobility to move up in life... who then turn around and say kids today have it easy. Sure thing mate. Tell that to the kids in Denaby who might well be bright, but get crammed through the school system on a shoestring, into a zero hours contract, because asking for support makes them benefit cheats and scroungers. Personal responsibility is important but it only gets you so far. God knows what would've happened if this government was in power during wartime.

glosterred

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Re: Trump
« Reply #146 on May 22, 2018, 04:32:12 pm by glosterred »
BST is spot on there. I'm a millennial, so I get a bit pissed off at boomers who had the chance to buy a house, who reaped all the benefits of postwar socialist policies, who lived in towns like Mexborough when they had thriving industries and lots of jobs, who could go to university without being hammered with debt, who had a decent amount of help and welfare when they needed it, had high potential for social mobility to move up in life... who then turn around and say kids today have it easy. Sure thing mate. Tell that to the kids in Denaby who might well be bright, but get crammed through the school system on a shoestring, into a zero hours contract, because asking for support makes them benefit cheats and scroungers. Personal responsibility is important but it only gets you so far. God knows what would've happened if this government was in power during wartime.

Oh woe is me



selby

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Re: Trump
« Reply #147 on May 22, 2018, 05:08:07 pm by selby »
  Yes the generation that paid 14% for houses, didn't get a vote on the Lisbon Treaty, or the Maastricht treaty, and were sold down the river.
 Worst thing we did was have a shag, and come up with a lot of moaning entitled sprogs wanting everything given, made our arms ache when they were young, and our hearts ache when they got older.
   We even made the exams easy, and they are still stressed out, and what jobs there are in Mexborough are most likely filled with foreign labour because they get up in a morning, dont moan, and have got some balls, while you lot look for your next fix.

MachoMadness

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Re: Trump
« Reply #148 on May 22, 2018, 06:06:13 pm by MachoMadness »
Shitting on an awful lot of British citizens there Selby. Why can't you stop talking the country down? Are you anti-British? etc etc

Filo

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Re: Trump
« Reply #149 on May 22, 2018, 06:16:34 pm by Filo »
  Yes the generation that paid 14% for houses, didn't get a vote on the Lisbon Treaty, or the Maastricht treaty, and were sold down the river.
 Worst thing we did was have a shag, and come up with a lot of moaning entitled sprogs wanting everything given, made our arms ache when they were young, and our hearts ache when they got older.
   We even made the exams easy, and they are still stressed out, and what jobs there are in Mexborough are most likely filled with foreign labour because they get up in a morning, dont moan, and have got some balls, while you lot look for your next fix.

Thats a tad unfair

I assume you mean you paid 14% interest on you mortgage? Probly nothing really on your mortgage as it was before the property boom.


No one else got a vote on the two treaty's either, instead you got a vote to take us into the Common Market.

A big majority of your generation were able to retire between 50 and 55, making big holes in Pension funds, ensuring later generations will never have that luxury.

I wish I was 18 in 1960 rather than 1981

 

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