9th Dec

[dickos1]

Not possession no, but playing well, creating chances scoring goals, giving very little away.
We were a nats cock off winning three on the bounce at the weekend.
How often have we done that over the last 3 or 4 years

[drfchound]

This is getting a bit pointless now..

Despite what we may perceive as generally better performances, or not, the only stats that count are goals for and against and therefore the results and the table..

Remember the first 24 games of season 2008/9?  Rock bottom yet having played our best football for decades..

We can argue about stats and tweak which set of games we include to skew any argument but that ultimately makes bugger all difference..

We need to pick up points, regardless of performances..

100% agree with that last line.

[Alan Southstand]

Why would you rip up a 5 year plan when you're only 2 years into it?

Read that within the context that it was written, SM. Do not misconstrue what the theme of the piece said. I could wax lyrical for ages about what I think is right, wrong or indifferent, but it's not what I think, it's what the Board think and do. The argument I am putting forward is that to get rid of the manager is to basically say......right, that didn't work, we go again. The manager being removed from office basically stirs up a whole hornets nest of questions, which are, quite frankly, unanswerable.

There is no way the Board would say to a new manager - by the way, we're already halfway through our 5 year plan, so you have to get us in the Championship in half the time we were prepared to give Fergie jnr.
Just not feasible. Therefore, the previous 5 year plan would become null and void and we would start again with something else!

[IDM]

I would expect the board to revise its plans at least every year, regardless of the original longevity.. 

Football is full of too many variables - there is no way that every clubs’ plans will be successfully achieved..

[silent majority]

Why would you rip up a 5 year plan when you're only 2 years into it?

Read that within the context that it was written, SM. Do not misconstrue what the theme of the piece said. I could wax lyrical for ages about what I think is right, wrong or indifferent, but it's not what I think, it's what the Board think and do. The argument I am putting forward is that to get rid of the manager is to basically say......right, that didn't work, we go again. The manager being removed from office basically stirs up a whole hornets nest of questions, which are, quite frankly, unanswerable.

There is no way the Board would say to a new manager - by the way, we're already halfway through our 5 year plan, so you have to get us in the Championship in half the time we were prepared to give Fergie jnr.
Just not feasible. Therefore, the previous 5 year plan would become null and void and we would start again with something else!

I would disagree. Of course the board are quite within their rights to spell out, as part of initial interviews, that the club is 2 years into a 5 year plan to be a settled championship side when interviewing new managers. The plan is a plan for Club Doncaster and shouldn't rely on any individual for that to succeed, its either a sound and solid objective for the club to aim for or its not. Of course business plans are always subject to continuous review and no doubt frequent updates will be given at the clubs board meetings with the strategy filtered down throughout the club at regular exec or management meetings. But to scrap the plan because of a change of manager means the strategy isn't flexible enough and is far too heavily biased in one direction.

At work we've just appointed a new Sales Director after something like 17 years continuous service, but have we changed any of our objectives or targets? No, not a single one. And that's exactly how it should be.

[The Red Baron]

Why would you rip up a 5 year plan when you're only 2 years into it?

Read that within the context that it was written, SM. Do not misconstrue what the theme of the piece said. I could wax lyrical for ages about what I think is right, wrong or indifferent, but it's not what I think, it's what the Board think and do. The argument I am putting forward is that to get rid of the manager is to basically say......right, that didn't work, we go again. The manager being removed from office basically stirs up a whole hornets nest of questions, which are, quite frankly, unanswerable.

There is no way the Board would say to a new manager - by the way, we're already halfway through our 5 year plan, so you have to get us in the Championship in half the time we were prepared to give Fergie jnr.
Just not feasible. Therefore, the previous 5 year plan would become null and void and we would start again with something else!

I would disagree. Of course the board are quite within their rights to spell out, as part of initial interviews, that the club is 2 years into a 5 year plan to be a settled championship side when interviewing new managers. The plan is a plan for Club Doncaster and shouldn't rely on any individual for that to succeed, its either a sound and solid objective for the club to aim for or its not. Of course business plans are always subject to continuous review and no doubt frequent updates will be given at the clubs board meetings with the strategy filtered down throughout the club at regular exec or management meetings. But to scrap the plan because of a change of manager means the strategy isn't flexible enough and is far too heavily biased in one direction.

At work we've just appointed a new Sales Director after something like 17 years continuous service, but have we changed any of our objectives or targets? No, not a single one. And that's exactly how it should be.

Not saying we are there yet, but at what point do they consider whether the manager is capable of delivering their strategic objectives?

[wing commander]

  Like anything else the 5 year plan will have lots of targets to achieve..They will involve a lot of off the field targets around club Doncaster, as well as on the field targets as regards the team..

   Off the field from what I can see we have seen nothing but growth and improvement when it comes to the corporate aspect of the club and club Doncaster, and I would guess that they are pretty much on track with that...

   On the field is a different prospect,i would suggest that relegation cost us more than 1 season when it comes to the on field plan..Yes it only took 1 season to get back but there are other implications..The players that would play league 2 football are of less quality and whilst they may have been good enough to get us out of league 2 are they good enough to compete at the business end of league 1..I suggest not but to turn those back around again takes 2 years at least...

    You cant argue that we are pretty much back to where we started from when he came, a below average league 1 side...The difference is they are his players this time not Dickov's so for me we need to start seeing some big improvement after January for him to be allowed to take us forward next season...

[dickos1]

I would expect the board to revise its plans at least every year, regardless of the original longevity.. 

Football is full of too many variables - there is no way that every clubs’ plans will be successfully achieved..

Exactly, so when we got relegated the plan would obviously have been revised.
Yet people keep saying well we're two years into the plan and no further forward.
The revised plan at beginning of last season was promotion, and this year it would have been consolidation, and then next year push for playoffs.
People are trying to write the future

[Bristol Red Rover]

Interesting to see how teams in tier 3 in 18th position on 9 Dec have finished over the past 20 seasons. Red x is when they changed the manager during that season, with month of change:
7  x
8  x
9  x x
10 x (oct)
11 x x
12
13 x
14 x x (jan) x (dec)
15 x (march)
16
17 x x (feb)
18
19 x
20 x
21
22 x x x (oct+dec) x (dec+mar)
23
24

A snapshot, but a slight trend towards staying with the manager being the best outcome, though I think it's more to do with the club's overall situation as to what happens by the end of the season 

[dickos1]

Only 4 out of 20 is quite surprising as is 7 sides finishing in the top half

[Copps is Magic]

Interesting bit of information BRR. Good bye the play-offs it seems. Which, give the 12 point gap and one game advantage Charlton have (plus 12 teams to overcome), seems to be a realistic thing to say at this point.

[anne honemous]

A lot of the stuff in this thread is over analysing way too many things.

The fact is that three of our next four games, weather permitting, are at home so therefore it's an ideal chance to put some points on the board and climb up the table.

If we do that, it'll put us nearer to achieving what we want to achieve.

Last week when I suggested Oxford away was a very difficult game, someone pointed out that a win there would have put us within one point of them.

For me, they're a good team that will be in or around the play-offs come May.

It just shows how close the league is that we went there and very nearly got something, and that we also aren't far away from being in that cluster of mid-table teams.

We should be more positive about what we can achieve as a team rather than constantly worrying about what we may not achieve.

I still think by the end of the season, we'll fall into the bracket of being an unspectacular, boring team in mid-table who didn't pull up many trees but for this season, that's good enough for us!

[Copps is Magic]

We should be more positive about what we can achieve as a team rather than constantly worrying about what we may not achieve.

See I don't get this? Do you think Fergie sends the team out saying 'stop worrying about what we may not achieve'?. Of course he doesn't, he tries to instill every bit of positivity he can - and the end result is exactly where we find ourselves and exactly the performances we put in.

[Chris Black come back]

The fundamental point that surely all folk must agree on is that given resources available, it is not much cop is it?

Kinda “doing ok” or “look alright”. Fact is that over two years on and god knows how much cash shovelled into club by our generous owners, we are three points off the relegation zone.

Injuries, “bad luck”, “played well and should have had something”, “ref was biased”, all of this must make us the unluckiest club in the world these last two years.

It is not good enough and shows no sign of consistently getting better, to at least reflect the resources we have available.

How we improve is another question, but surely nobody credible can doubt that these have been two lost years and we are back where we started pretty much, three points off the relegation places.

[bobjimwilly]

if we were the unluckiest club in the world we wouldn't have got promoted last season though?

maybe, just maybe, that's football...

[dickos1]

The fundamental point that surely all folk must agree on is that given resources available, it is not much cop is it?

Kinda “doing ok” or “look alright”. Fact is that over two years on and god knows how much cash shovelled into club by our generous owners, we are three points off the relegation zone.

Injuries, “bad luck”, “played well and should have had something”, “ref was biased”, all of this must make us the unluckiest club in the world these last two years.

It is not good enough and shows no sign of consistently getting better, to at least reflect the resources we have available.

How we improve is another question, but surely nobody credible can doubt that these have been two lost years and we are back where we started pretty much, three points off the relegation places.

Where did you expect to be this season after 21 games?

[dickos1]

Interesting bit of information BRR. Good bye the play-offs it seems. Which, give the 12 point gap and one game advantage Charlton have (plus 12 teams to overcome), seems to be a realistic thing to say at this point.

Not sure anyone has been thinking playoffs this season

[Copps is Magic]

Do you think it was completely written off by management, players, fans?

If it wasn't an objective what is the point of the 5 year plan to get into the championship? 4 years of consolidation and when we're fully consolidated actually go for it?

[dickos1]

I mean now!
Those stats aren't needed to show we ain't going to get in the playoffs, but they're interesting as they show more teams in our position finish higher than 18th than lower come may

[drfchound]

Do you think it was completely written off by management, players, fans?

If it wasn't an objective what is the point of the 5 year plan to get into the championship? 4 years of consolidation and when we're fully consolidated actually go for it?

Copps, the objective was to be a sustainable Championship club in five years, not just to get there in five years.
It is my understanding that to be sustainable in that division we have to be in it before the five years is up and prove that we can stay there.

[dickos1]

Yes but when we got relegated do you not think this plan may have been revised? As has been stated previously it would be ludicrous not to reassess.
In august 2016 we would all have been happy to be 21st in the league above in 15 months time

[drfchound]

Yes but when we got relegated do you not think this plan may have been revised? As has been stated previously it would be ludicrous not to reassess.
In august 2016 we would all have been happy to be 21st in the league above in 15 months time

Is that right?

[dickos1]

People who say they didn't think that are telling lies.
All that mattered last season was promotion and there were many many posters on here who said we wouldn't go up.
And it's mainly the same posters who are now moaning.

[anne honemous]

We should be more positive about what we can achieve as a team rather than constantly worrying about what we may not achieve.

See I don't get this? Do you think Fergie sends the team out saying 'stop worrying about what we may not achieve'?. Of course he doesn't, he tries to instill every bit of positivity he can - and the end result is exactly where we find ourselves and exactly the performances we put in.

I think as a fanbase, certainly this forum, we could be a lot more positive.

There's some folk who still bang on about the screw up in the last 4/5 games of last season and how we should have won the league (which is correct), but they then choose to ignore the fact we achieved our target with five games to spare.

So they're seeking a negative when there's plenty to be positive about.

Whether that rubs off onto the players, I don't know, but collectively they seem to have a big problem of going weak in the backside when it's getting towards the end of the game and they are having to defend for something.

But when all is said and done, our initial aim is to stay up and right now we're not in the relegation zone, so we're on target for what we want to achieve this season.

Of course, that's not hiding away from the fact that there's lots of things we could be better at and need to improve, if we want to challenge teams such as Oxford who have greater expectations than ourselves right now.

[Alan Southstand]

CBCB, you mention resources a few times in your piece. By resources, do you mean the players? If you do, I'd question your argument. If you mean budget, again, I would ask what you think it is?

For the players we have, I think we are exactly where we should be, give or take 2 or 3 places higher. We have gone from being an over aged team on the slide to being a much younger average aged team with a lot of (unfulfilled) promise, but still with the odd over aged player still hanging on.

The inconsistency of youth is well in evidence in our games so far and this, as yet, has not been corrected. I believe the only way to correct that is to both improve the young lads we already have (a work in progress) and re-inforce what we have with 2 or 3 lads in their mid 20's who have experience at this level, or higher, in January. If we don't do the latter, then we could end up dropping down again.

[Chris Black come back]

Alan - I mean financial resources, which is still the major determinant of success - although not the only determinant certainly.

The Board provides the resources and the manager is responsible for spending them. We are told we have a top half budget, yet at no stage this season I do not think have we been in the top half and we are currently three points off the relegation zone.

In the words of John Lydon, “ever feel you have been cheated”?

[Alan Southstand]

We were told we had a 'competitive' budget, not a top half budget. This one single point has never been resolved, imo, and I think we are where we are because of the budget, that is to say I believe it's one of the main factors for us being where we are. Yes, I agree, the manager has to take his share of responsibility and so do the players, individually and collectively. But, again it's only an opinion, I think the budget that was set was, with hindsight, inadequate for what we needed in this division. Let's see if there is anything left to go round in January!

[Chris Black come back]

I think if you ask those on this forum who would know, they would make the point that top half budget is what we have this season. 

I do not think we can lay any blame to our owners for the mess of the last two years. They provide the tools, it is for others to put them to work properly.

[drfchound]

We should be more positive about what we can achieve as a team rather than constantly worrying about what we may not achieve.

See I don't get this? Do you think Fergie sends the team out saying 'stop worrying about what we may not achieve'?. Of course he doesn't, he tries to instill every bit of positivity he can - and the end result is exactly where we find ourselves and exactly the performances we put in.

I think as a fanbase, certainly this forum, we could be a lot more positive.

There's some folk who still bang on about the screw up in the last 4/5 games of last season and how we should have won the league (which is correct), but they then choose to ignore the fact we achieved our target with five games to spare.

So they're seeking a negative when there's plenty to be positive about.

Whether that rubs off onto the players, I don't know, but collectively they seem to have a big problem of going weak in the backside when it's getting towards the end of the game and they are having to defend for something.

But when all is said and done, our initial aim is to stay up and right now we're not in the relegation zone, so we're on target for what we want to achieve this season.

Of course, that's not hiding away from the fact that there's lots of things we could be better at and need to improve, if we want to challenge teams such as Oxford who have greater expectations than ourselves right now.

Yes, agreed that we achieved the promotion target with five games to spare and credit is due for that.
However, it is well documented that DF said after the Mansfield game that the aim was to win the title.

[dickos1]

Yes and we didn't.
Hardly a disaster is it?
You say credit is due for promotion but hardly anyone gives this credit.

Promotion isn't easy whatever league you're in