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Author Topic: Safe Standing  (Read 6275 times)

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RedJ

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #30 on April 10, 2018, 10:50:43 pm by RedJ »
   I am totally in favour of safe standing at football games for those who want to, I am pointing out the reasons why you will only bang your head against a brick wall to get it reinstated in English football.
  It is probably a generation thing in government, the older M Ps will not go back on all seater, perhaps in ten years there may be a chance.
  But the top six teams with their stadiums, no chance. Arsenal take £1.25 million a home game, Spurs will do the same, and Chelsea are going to follow suit.

So you can't actually tell me how what you said has anything to do with safe standing? not sure any of these points certainly in terms of the football have anything to do with it either.



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Bristol Red Rover

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #31 on April 10, 2018, 11:06:25 pm by Bristol Red Rover »
   I am totally in favour of safe standing at football games for those who want to, I am pointing out the reasons why you will only bang your head against a brick wall to get it reinstated in English football.
  It is probably a generation thing in government, the older M Ps will not go back on all seater, perhaps in ten years there may be a chance.
  But the top six teams with their stadiums, no chance. Arsenal take £1.25 million a home game, Spurs will do the same, and Chelsea are going to follow suit.

So you can't actually tell me how what you said has anything to do with safe standing? not sure any of these points certainly in terms of the football have anything to do with it either.

Safe standing won't decrease attendances or revenue. It could be that newly built stadiums have a little less "legroom" in their standing sections, that would be sold as shorter legroom seats when used as seating, and therefore mean slightly more person positions in the same space (give me a break, I'm simply wanting this to happen  :whistle: ).

And hey Donny based folk, get signing the petition - only 9 people in the 3 Donny constuencies have so far signed it. Donny is relentlessly poor at signing these things, make your voice heard even if you do sit in the East stand  :clapping:
Sign here, it's so easy https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

scawsby steve

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #32 on April 10, 2018, 11:21:00 pm by scawsby steve »
Signed.

dknward2

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #33 on April 10, 2018, 11:30:24 pm by dknward2 »
Done
I'm personally not interested in standing at matches but I believe it's far safer with rail seating than normal seats.

silent majority

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #34 on April 11, 2018, 09:34:55 am by silent majority »
BRR,

I'm not following your logic there to be fair. Are you saying that you would like to see more people in the same spaces or more leg room? Rail seats take up less space than a typical 'tip up' seat therefore there is automatically more room. The conversion factor, in most cases, would be 1:8 to 1. Therefore 1800 people can stand in an area that would normally seat 1000. Of course if the rail seats are locked in the down position it would still be 1000 people in the same area, therefore, logically, they would have more leg room not less.

silent majority

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #35 on April 11, 2018, 09:37:29 am by silent majority »
I wouldn't worry too much about the petition either, there must have been dozens done over the years and all to no avail. I think we're well past the point of petitions and we've had numerous debates and private members bills at the HoP. No, the argument is quite clearly with Tracey Crouch and DCMS.

selby

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #36 on April 11, 2018, 09:53:48 am by selby »
  RJ, what's it like in your house when the wife gives you a choice for breakfast?

RedJ

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #37 on April 11, 2018, 10:04:08 am by RedJ »
Well when she tells me about what shoes she's seen online when we're talking about breakfast I ask her what it's got to do with what we were on about.

bobjimwilly

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #38 on April 11, 2018, 09:52:59 pm by bobjimwilly »
signed and shared :aok:

Bristol Red Rover

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #39 on April 11, 2018, 10:50:15 pm by Bristol Red Rover »
I wouldn't worry too much about the petition either, there must have been dozens done over the years and all to no avail. I think we're well past the point of petitions and we've had numerous debates and private members bills at the HoP. No, the argument is quite clearly with Tracey Crouch and DCMS.

I was kinda joking re the seat room, but good to hear that it does increase capacity after all.

Petitions do work, politicians take note big time, and good to see Donny for once not entirely without a voice on the petition map. That petition is directly at Parliament too, not a to be delivered type. If there are enough people, 100k, then there is a significant debate triggered. It's grown quite quickly, currently at around 13k.

However, I do agree that the key people need to be worked on, and in most cases, to para-use a phrase, the people in the shaddows that wield the real power "need shooting".
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 10:55:38 pm by Bristol Red Rover »

silent majority

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #40 on April 18, 2018, 03:39:39 pm by silent majority »
Just giving the petition a bump, its just about to pass the 64,000 mark which is very good, but needs to get to 100,000 to be successful.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

Pancho Regan

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #41 on April 19, 2018, 08:20:28 am by Pancho Regan »
Signed.
Past the 66,000 mark now.

darren61

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #42 on April 19, 2018, 08:31:37 am by darren61 »
66,467 ive just signed.

swintonrover

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #43 on April 19, 2018, 11:14:11 am by swintonrover »
Just signed, 67,309 now.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #44 on April 19, 2018, 11:35:47 am by BillyStubbsTears »
BRR,

I'm not following your logic there to be fair. Are you saying that you would like to see more people in the same spaces or more leg room? Rail seats take up less space than a typical 'tip up' seat therefore there is automatically more room. The conversion factor, in most cases, would be 1:8 to 1. Therefore 1800 people can stand in an area that would normally seat 1000. Of course if the rail seats are locked in the down position it would still be 1000 people in the same area, therefore, logically, they would have more leg room not less.

SM

We’ve been through this before. Even if you can fit 1800 people onto a terrace that has 1000 seats (and as you know, I’m sceptical on some of the numbers, not to mention the practicality[1]) there are many other issues which would be likely to limit the increase in capacity (turnstile capacity, widths of ingress/egress walkways, stairs, vomitories, toilet numbers etc. These might not come into play at smaller grounds because the stairs etc will have been designed to minimum allowable widths and may well have excess capacity in their current form. But they certainly will come into play at larger grounds where the access and facilities ways will have been designed on the stadium’s current capacity and it’s unlikely that you’d be able to get a lot more people in without a total redesign of the access routes and facilities.

I’m in favour of safe standing but realistically you’re very unlikely to get large increases in capacity this way and I don’t understand why the case for safe standing requires these unrealistic projections.

[1] Take a terrace row with ten seats. That’s about 7.5m long or so, depending on the seat spacing. You’re not going to be able to fit 18 adults in that length, shoulder to shoulder. I’m about 500mm across my shoulder, so you’d need 9m length to fit in 18 of me. Which means that you have to stagger the people - some at the front of the step, some at the back to fit in 18 people. But the ones at the back are on the same level as the ones at the front. So unless the tall people naturally gravitate to the back of a given step, there are obvious viewing difficulties for shorter people.

silent majority

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #45 on April 19, 2018, 12:15:49 pm by silent majority »
BST,

Yes we have been through this before, and my points that I mentioned then remain the same. I realise that you're sceptical on the figures, but this isn't me, or the FSF, making up something that sounds good in order to win approval.

Firstly, we have never used the increase in numbers as part of our campaign. You will struggle to find any mention of it in anything we have ever done publicly, nor will you find us talking about cheaper ticket prices because of that. They are possible of course and if asked a direct question then that's the answer that we will use, however our campaign has always been about two things, safety and choice. Most of our real world experience has been taken from the examples that exist throughout Germany and the practicalities there support the figures as previously mentioned.

Secondly, your maths does add up, but they're based on one row whereas the practical solution is to have two rows, or as the GG states 'an intermediate' step. That then gives you the front and back requirement.

Thirdly, the Green Guide has been re-written and is due for publication shortly. In there you will find that the SGSA have done their calculations and again have confirmed that using typical seat widths and step depths that 1:8 to 1:0 is achievable. If you wish I'll send you what I have of the revised section that covers standing.

Fourthly, today is a very important day in our campaign, the SGSA are having their annual conference at the Etihad and we have two representatives there. I'm hoping that a positive outcome is part of the proceedings.

silent majority

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #46 on April 19, 2018, 02:35:43 pm by silent majority »
If anybody wants to tweet the SGSA;

Hi all,

The Sports Ground Safety Authority (SGSA) are holding a conference today with some big hitters along - as well as safety officers there'll be representation I think from the PL, EFL, FA, FSF and maybe even the sports minister.

They're encouraging people to use the hastag #SaferTogether in debates and we thought it would be nice for fan groups to use that very same hashtag today to share their own support for safe standing (see our tweet).

This means anyone at the conference searching for what the SGSA or other delegates are discussing online will see fans' support for safe standing mixed in with the other debates. It'd be best to curate your own tweet rather than simply RT ours.

Many thanks,

NickDRFC

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #47 on April 20, 2018, 07:56:46 am by NickDRFC »
Just giving the petition a bump, its just about to pass the 64,000 mark which is very good, but needs to get to 100,000 to be successful.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

Signed, but SM what changed between you saying last week “I wouldn't worry too much about the petition either, there must have been dozens done over the years and all to no avail. I think we're well past the point of petitions” and giving it a bump 2 days ago?

silent majority

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #48 on April 20, 2018, 09:33:47 am by silent majority »
Just giving the petition a bump, its just about to pass the 64,000 mark which is very good, but needs to get to 100,000 to be successful.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

Signed, but SM what changed between you saying last week “I wouldn't worry too much about the petition either, there must have been dozens done over the years and all to no avail. I think we're well past the point of petitions” and giving it a bump 2 days ago?

We as a group have stayed away from petitions over the years because they have all failed. There have been numerous petitions started by individuals which usually flounder after a few weeks and we felt that they showed the governments position more than ours, i.e. that nobody wanted standing in stadiums reintroduced. Somehow this one, despite its poor wording etc,  seems to have struck a chord somewhere and has gained traction, therefore we have given it a big push to get it over the line. Some petitions can be more harmful to the cause than of a benefit, this one looks like it could be positive.

We still feel we're past the point of petitions, but it won't do any harm. Days like yesterday are much more important where the whole standing debate was discussed by the industry with everybody present in one room, DCMS,SGSA, EFL,EPL, and supporters. There are outcomes from yesterday that I can't disclose, but they are positive ones. Not only that but the All Parliamentary Group at the HoP are also discussing the issue in the next few weeks so its not that standing isnt being discussed at Government level because it is, but one more shot won't do any harm.

silent majority

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Re: Safe Standing
« Reply #49 on April 20, 2018, 08:38:53 pm by silent majority »
Well it's over 78,000 now so if it's given a further push over the weekend through social media, primarily, it'll get over the line soon enough.

If a couple of clubs (established top two division clubs) supported it through social media, that'd have an impact as well, as it would if its kept in the spotlight and doesn't die off whilst the momentum for it is strong.

If the government take a certain stance that won't change though, there's not a lot that can be done until they've been sent packing at the elections and the opportunity is there with a new govt.

It'll happen like 3G pitches, it'll just take time.

We have all of that in hand. Kat, who runs the Spurs trust and is also a supporter rep at the FA, is confident that they will cover any shortage from their club.

Its not strictly speaking a government issue, several key conservative ministers are in favour, plus the Welsh conservatives have it in their manifesto. No, this is about one person, in a rather hackneyed version of Yes Minister.


 

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