Not happy with the decision?

[wilts rover]

By the same token shouldn't a party leader take ultimate responsibility when he fails to lead adequately?

That all depends if you or he thinks that? Corbyn was the only party leader and major figure who told the truth throughout the campaign. What you and this group of career politicans at Westminster have failed to come to terms with is that it was their message that people didn't like - not the bloke who was delivering it.

What we have just seen is the right wing taking control of the agenda of British politics, its all the immigrants faults, kick'em out, we can survive on our own because we are a great empire, very much like the 1930's. Which came about in part because the Labour Party tore itself apart to keep power rather than address public concern.

I agree with Copps, if Westminster Labour go against the wishes of their membership in order to find another leader who will create a New New Labour, they wont see power again for years. It took a world war after 1931. Get real people.

[Copps is Magic]

BST,

64% of Labour members would block attempts to oust Corbyn
(72% believe he is doing a good job.)

He has the support of Unite Union

200k people in a very short time have signed a vote of confidence petition in favour of Corbyn.

He practicaly doubled labour party membership within months

Not forgetting the fact that he was elected with a huge mandate less than a year ago

I've also read of his impact on social media, and it's quite impressive. If you want anecdotal evidence, among my peers and age group he is held in a very very high regard. Unlike any other politician I've known.

Is this evidence enough?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

Watch that bloody video that I posted.

What the f**k did he think that was going to achieve, 36 hours before the polls opened? What message was that going to get into living rooms in Doncaster.

It is self-indulgence to an unbelievable degree.

And. Note that when he was asked directly if he was actually in favour of us leaving the EU, a plain, simple direct question, he refused to answer it.

You can't DO that in such important moments in politics. This is not a debating society. This is what is going to shape our country for the next half century. M
At best, he's been meaningless in this campaign. At worst, mendacious. Either way, he CANNOT remain as Labour leader.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps.

For Christ's sake! The Labour Party membership is 0.5% of the f**king population. His job is not to make Labour Party members feel good about themselves. It is to convince the f**king country out there.

[Copps is Magic]

By the same token shouldn't a party leader take ultimate responsibility when he fails to lead adequately?

In a democracy shouldn't we all take a .. erm .. collective responsibility?

As it stands, this labour lot are the ones who have acted first. It was THEY who published these letters. And NOT ONE says 'look, we've let the public down' or 'we've clearly failed to stay in touch with the people we are meant to represent' and therefore 'I don't believe my position is tenable'. No, they say they don't believe Corbyn is the right personality to take the labour movement forward!

Is that not telling to you? Do you not see an ounce of wider predicament we are in here?

[no eyed deer]

Copps.

Corbyn has popular support? What?

He's been in the job 9 months. His "doing a good job" rating is -22%. This is his honeymoon period. He's faced a utterly divided and internally arguing Tory party. And he's at depths that Ed Milliband took 4 years to plumb.

More than all of that, he is simply NOT a leader. As one Labour MP put it today, leaders have to find ways to bring diverse opinions together into a coherent conclusion. Corbyn has spent 30 years in rooms where everyone agrees with each other.

And then there is the Referendum campaign.

What woukd you have expected Corbyn to be doing 2 days before the vote? I'd have expected him to be demanding BBC and ITV news time to give a passionate and unequivocal message to Labour supporters. To have used Churchill's advice, " If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack."

Do you know what he actually did on Tuesday? He spent time talking to an obscure progressive American webcaster about how flawed the EU was and how, maybe, perhaps, on balance, it was the right thing, maybe to stay in.

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/16321

It's not good enough Copps. This isn't a f**king Student Union debate that Corbyn was taking part in. Fail to give a powerful and unambiguous steer to the Labour support and you leave the vacuum that Farage has rushed into. Corbyn has been a disaster AS A LEADER. Whatever you think of his policies (and I agree with many of them) he has failed in the most important moment that he will ever face. And he has to go.

So both Corbyn and leave were put to a democratic vote, and you say both were wrong  lol. Out of all the politicians he was the one the lied the least . But your right he's no leader .

 

[BillyStubbsTears]

And regarding your peers and age group, did you not notice that their support for Remain was overwhelmed by the less idealistic beliefs of the older generations?

It's not all about you, the people you tweet with and their brothers and sisters. God knows, I wish it was, because I suspect we'd get a better outcome.

But a Labour leader has to reach out to an enormous coalition of voters. From young, idealistic graduates, to lonely, suspicious pensioners.

It's no good being a hero to one group and irrelevant to the other.

You're smart enough not to cherry pick convenient facts and convince yourself that you are right. Go and have a look beyond your peer group, at Corbyn's and Labour's overall national support figures. They are f**king dreadful. The worst that any Labour opposition has EVER had at this stage of the cycle. By a mile.

The Labour members who voted Corbyn in May well convince themselves they are right. But they aren't. They are self-indulgent and refusing to face the truth. And that is inexcusable. Because this is NOT about them. It is about the people that Labour had to look after.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps.

Labour is in opposition. They are of lesser importance to the media than the Govt.  Do you expect the media to be clearing their decks to hear what Vernon Coaker or Lucy Powell had to say about Brexit? Get real! There was only one person on the Labour side who could set the tone of Labour's approach to the campaign.

Unfortunately, he DID set that tone...

[Copps is Magic]

Copps.

For Christ's sake! The Labour Party membership is 0.5% of the f**king population. His job is not to make Labour Party members feel good about themselves. It is to convince the f**king country out there.

Come on now, If you can't see the man has support then your prejudices are outweighing your judgement. You must also surely know that at this stage we've only got indicative pointers on his popularity - indicative figures, clues, trends. They are all broadly supportive. Lastly, before we even get to his first true opportunity to 'convince the country' you want to behead the man! The EU referendum wasn't a vote on Corbyn, and the 16 odd million who voted remain do not suddenly all have to retreat from political life. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

I was you 30 years ago. I convinced myself that a dysfunctional Labour with a leader that couldn't convince the country, was right.

I was certain that we had the right arguments and that the country would see the light.

All my young mates thought the same.

We were the people who made Labour unelectable because we weren't prepared to look outside our bubble to see what the rest of the country felt.

We were the ones who gave Thatcher a clear, unobstructed decade to do her work.

You and your bubble are going to do the same thing for PM Johnson.

Think about it. Think hard about it. Go and properly read up about the early 80s. And only after THAT, decide whether you and your Twitter mates are right or not.

[Copps is Magic]

snip

Well, to condense a few things there - I generally think I am providing a more impartial view of his popularity than you are. Given also that, as you surely must admit, you didn't want him as the leader in the first place this may still be influencing your opinion. You will also notice I said 'if you want anecdotal evidence'. I thought that might give an indication of the value I put on that evidence. Take it as you want, I'm comfortable with how I interpret it.

Given that Yougov use a pretty robust and broad sampling strategy, I wonder how stuff like this reflects on his wider popularity and your points about attracting a wider vote?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

I'm very much aware of that poll thanks. And the RELATIVE positions are not the issue.

Corbyn's position vis-a-vis Cameron is utterly irrelevant. Cameron isn't his opponent. What matters is Corbyn's personal position itself. And that of the Labour Party.

Can you possibly imagine a more propitious condition for an opposition? A Govt that has torn itself to pieces. A PM defeat and resigned.

Where are Labour in the polls? Where is Corbyn's personal popularity?

[BobG]

Copps: this is one of the saddest things I have ever said on here. But it has to be said. It really does not matter, in the slightest, how popular Corbyn is within the Labour Party or even with the left wing in this country generally. They won't, ever, get him elected. I wish they would. He speaks a lot of sense on some subjects. But they won't. They can't. Look up political theory - about how elections are won and lost. His entire political life puts him in a place where he can never win. So, like Billy said, he's opening the very same door for Boris Big Gob that Michael Foot and co opened for Mrs Thatcher. If he doesn't go inside the next month the Labour Party is dead. It's already lost 50 seats in Scotland that aren't coming back and will soon disdappear off the face of the Earth. It's losing another 20 seats next time around as a result of the Boundary Commission.  And appealing to 100% of 20% of the electorate will simply finish the job. Corbyn is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party - never mind the country he could so easily have saved from itself.

You can see he's useless. What have we got? A Tory party that's split down the middle. A Tory party who's members are slagging off each other in public. A Tory party that has no sense of direction, no vision for the future (hardly, now!) and no feeling for the common man. So what, do you think, would be the position of the official opposition? Leading the cry against such a terrible government? A 10+ point lead in the polls? A plan for the future? A united party focussed on getting rid of this shower of shite in Downing street?

You'd think so wouldn't you. Only we have exactly none of that. None at all. That's the calibre of leader Jeremy Corbyn is. He's a nebbish.

BobG

[Copps is Magic]

Think about it. Think hard about it. Go and properly read up about the early 80s. And only after THAT, decide whether you and your Twitter mates are right or not.

In reply to this post.

Firstly, I'm not personally on twitter (I help out some joint accounts but that is by the by). Generally, I don't really get involved in social media because I'm an unsociable t**t. Secondly, you seem to have mis-interpreted me as some kind of young idealist! Errrr. I don't really know the best way to refute that other than to share some personal information (you'll have to trust me not out of vanity). For a time (a relatively short period admittedly) I was employed by one of the UK governments. I had a role that had a responsibility intrinsically attached to it to listen to the views of a very very broad range of people. That particular experience is undoubtedly one of the founding influences on my political views.

If what you're doing is transposing your views of the younger generation on to me then I just think you are wrong. Those inter-generational stereotypes just doesn't equate with my experiences. As I argued after the referendum, I think many younger people have a far more complete view of the situation than many older people do. I also don't buy the fact that, whatever your experiences were in the 1980s, that a 'wiser' view of politics is that it should always be sustained by a strong and benevolent leader. And moreover, that fear of the consequences should somehow dictate how we act.

I think the outcomes of this referendum have a much longer history than the 1980s and have far more fundamental consequences for our democracy/politics than a simple change in figureheads.

[MachoMadness]

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

63% of Labour voters backed Remain. Note that is 1% behind the SNP. The claim that Corbyn didn't galvanise the Labour vote doesn't quite stack up in my view.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

My view of left-wing politics is very simple. No theorising. I had my fill of that in my early 20s.

The job of the left wing is to blunt the worst of the excesses of horrors that would otherwise be unleashed on those unable to protect themselves.

It's not about getting some hypothetically perefect outcome. It's not about getting the precise outcome that would best match my own beliefs.

It's about getting the least bad practically possible outcome.

That's why I f**king hate the left people who casual castigate Blair and Brown. I said months ago that the lefties who nonchalantly say that Blair was nothing but a Tory are intellectually vacant.

I, personally, felt that Blair went considerably too far to the right. But f**k me, was PM Blair preferable to opposition Corbyn and PM Johnson.

That is what it comes down to. Accept compromise rather than staying pure and losing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Macho

Your not the first to tell me that.

It misses the f**king obvious point. M

How many SNP supporters voted Leave because it brings independence closer?  I would have done as an SNP supporter. It was a no-brainer.

For f**k's sake, put the SNP figure aside and  look at what those numbers say for Labour. THIRTY-SEVEN percent of Labour supporters voted Out. When the Labour leader was, apparently, supporting In.

Think about it! Put your preferences aside and think about it!

[Sammy Chung was King]

Corbyn i get the impression, is liked by some, but they can't see him leading the country. The mp's jobs are to get the right man in charge to give them a better chance of being elected. Labour can't be elected with Corbyn in charge, it's only a matter of time, until he goes.
He is probably a very good mp, who has strong beliefs, and helps the area he is from, but he isn't a leader!. The labour party is in pieces, and the conservatives are also split down the middle.

I can't believe Nicky Morgan is being put forward as a potential leader, she doesn't even seem to understand the job she is doing in education, she seems very inexperienced!. The candidates listed really only leave one person, and that's Boris. There is a serious lack of quality candidates on both sides. The liberals if they hadn't gone in with the conservatives, could have been sitting in a nice position now. The worry is that ukip get in through the backdoor, that really would be a nightmare!.

[MachoMadness]

BST,

Yep, I'm aware of that. However, as has been mentioned, the referendum wasn't on Corbyn's fitness to lead. If pretty much every fact, expert opinion and world leader pointing to it being a bad idea didn't swing it I don't see any Labour MP making a difference. At least, not when they spend more time bitching to the press than they do putting on a united front - there's a whiff of a self-fulfilling prophecy about all this. 2/3 of the members isn't outstanding but it's hardly a capitulation worthy of a coup.

Also, it might just be my tinfoil hat, and it may just be a coincidence, but all the Blairites sticking the boot into Corbyn right before Labour (except Corbyn and a couple of others of course) gets a pasting in the Chilcot report... interesting timing if nothing else.

[drfc1951]

I voted out, and would have voted out whoever was the leader of the labour party.

[ferribyrover]

I too voted leave. My mind was made up years ago, maybe even decades ago, that if ever given the chance I would vote us out of this European project. The party leaders were unlikely to change my view.
The campaigns were so poor that they did not change my view.

What is disappointing is that it was for our country a massive decision and the government should have been ready for either outcome. Cameron said he would take instruction and do what the people asked, yes he gambled and failed, and he is a politician therefore a liar, but to quit when he has a job to do is feeble.

The labour shadow cabinet upheaval, and moves to replace Corbyn, are badly timed in that we have some real negotiating to do with the EU and others, and it needs to have cross party involvement and support.
So there is much to be getting on with to limit the period of financial uncertainty and yet we have to delay proper negotiations because of Westminster turmoil. The vote we had was not party politics, it was about the future of our country not the Tory or Labour Party. This me me me sort of reaction is sad and the subsequent delays in negotiating are unhelpful.

[IDM]

negotiations cannot start until clause 50 is activated.

[Filo]

I too voted leave. My mind was made up years ago, maybe even decades ago, that if ever given the chance I would vote us out of this European project. The party leaders were unlikely to change my view.
The campaigns were so poor that they did not change my view.

What is disappointing is that it was for our country a massive decision and the government should have been ready for either outcome. Cameron said he would take instruction and do what the people asked, yes he gambled and failed, and he is a politician therefore a liar, but to quit when he has a job to do is feeble.

The labour shadow cabinet upheaval, and moves to replace Corbyn, are badly timed in that we have some real negotiating to do with the EU and others, and it needs to have cross party involvement and support.
So there is much to be getting on with to limit the period of financial uncertainty and yet we have to delay proper negotiations because of Westminster turmoil. The vote we had was not party politics, it was about the future of our country not the Tory or Labour Party. This me me me sort of reaction is sad and the subsequent delays in negotiating are unhelpful.

I agree with all that, the current turmoil within both party's is not helping things at all at the moment

[Dagenham Rover]

negotiations cannot start until clause 50 is activated.

They will,  its already been reported on LBC they'll be starting in the next few days although until its activated the EU can't kick us off the top table so to speak I'm not holding my breath on that one

Also Mr Osborne prior to the referendum you stated there was no alternative plan if leave won, (which in my opinion would have been a massive dereliction of your duties)  and in your speech this morning you, the Bank of England and all your cronies have been working on an alternative plan for months.

Sums it all up really Lies upon lies upon lies from all sides, how come I'm not surprised
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dagenham.

Osborne did not say that there was no alternative plan.

He said that there were contingency plans for dealing with the immediate turmoil following an Out vote, but that there were no long term plans.

He said, "The thing we’re planning for is the contingency plans for the financial stability consequences in the immediate aftermath.

"There would be an immediate question mark over the state of our public finances.

"It would start to come this Friday - that’s when the uncertainty would start.”

That has already come to pass.

Now, we've just had weeks and weeks of a campaign in which, every time there were predictions of the medium-to-long term effects of Brexit, the Leavers screamed, "No, no, no! You can't predict this. We don't believe you."

You can't have it both ways Dagenham. Either you CAN predict the effects, in which case the overwhelming consensus is that we're going to have a really, REALLY bad medium term future economic performance, and the Leavers have blathered you. Or you can't predict. In which case you can't criticise the Govt for having no long term plan.

Which one is it?

[Dagenham Rover]

Osborne stated there was no alternative plan prior to the referendum in an interview on LBC which the presenter told him he considered it a dereliction of duty as well.

another little snippet that came along was 88% of economists said the UK would be worse off! that was actually 88% of the 14% of economists who bothered to respond.

Tbh Billy I haven't got time to trawl through and find the relevant soundbites as I'm just about to go on my jollys for a couple of weeks so lets agree to disagree

[bpoolrover]

No emergency budget,so remain campaign telling the same untruths as the leave,what a surprise

[Copps is Magic]

You clearly don't understand the numbers.

Places like Bristol have a much larger percentage of foreign born nationals than places like Doncaster. In fact, Doncaster has a much lower percentage of foreign born nationals compared to the national average. The pattern will be broadly similar for all cases; Larger cities have much higher percentage of foreign born nationals in comparison to smaller towns.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Regardless of that, the cat is out of the bag anyway. There isn't going to be a reduction in immigration. It's not going to happen.

The dupe in Doncaster have served their purpose which is to get Boris to the step on No10. Now they can f**k off and deal with what's coming.

You just do t get it do you? You think you've exercised democratic power. It's pitifully naive.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Regardless of that, the cat is out of the bag anyway. There isn't going to be a reduction in immigration. It's not going to happen.

The dupe in Doncaster have served their purpose which is to get Boris to the step on No10. Now they can f**k off and deal with what's coming.

You just do t get it do you? You think you've exercised democratic power. It's pitifully naive.

I'm not sure anyone can say that. None of us know.