Ukraine

[SydneyRover]

quick look over there

Not pretty is it!
/quote]

your own debating style?

[Bristol Red Rover]

quick look over there

Not pretty is it!

your own debating style?

Prey tell.

[Bristol Red Rover]

quick look over there

Here you go, an on topic issue of US democracy.

https://rumble.com/v15ufc7-chip-roy-torches-congress-for-starting-proxy-war-with-russia.html

[River Don]

It's beginning to look like the new Russian tactic of throwing immense numbers at a focussed target is starting to pay off. Slowly but surely, sheer weight of numbers are starting to gain ground.

Which makes me wonder, is now a good time to give way at the negotiating table? This war is costing Russia so much but Putin needs a way out.

We could let them have some territory and it might bring this terrible war to an end.

Personally I don't think the Russian army is a threat now to Eastern Europe. They exhausted it trying to take Ukraine. Economically things must be hurting in Russia. And how long has Putin got, if he's as sick as reports suggest?

This war is likely to have a profound effect in Russia, as Afghanistan did. Perhaps now is the time to deescalate the situation?

[scawsby steve]

It's beginning to look like the new Russian tactic of throwing immense numbers at a focussed target is starting to pay off. Slowly but surely, sheer weight of numbers are starting to gain ground.

Which makes me wonder, is now a good time to give way at the negotiating table? This war is costing Russia so much but Putin needs a way out.

We could let them have some territory and it might bring this terrible war to an end.

Personally I don't think the Russian army is a threat now to Eastern Europe. They exhausted it trying to take Ukraine. Economically things must be hurting in Russia. And how long has Putin got, if he's as sick as reports suggest?

This war is likely to have a profound effect in Russia, as Afghanistan did. Perhaps now is the time to deescalate the situation?

Very good post, RD. I agree with every bit of that.

[River Don]

From the western side, it is certain that Putin is aiming to destabilise the economy and it's working. A recession looks unavoidable and a cost of living crisis is already upon is.

Fine, we might say it's a price worth paying for freedom and democracy in Ukraine. I doubt we'd think that way if we were Sri Lankan. The very high cost of gas is impacting heavily on the production of Fertilizer and that is going to have a severe impact on food production. Taken together with the blockade of Ukrainian ports and I would say the Governor of the Bank of England is not wrong in saying the brewing food crisis is going to be apocalyptic.

Both sides need a resolution to this war.

[normal rules]

I just don’t get what Russia want here. A land grab is one thing,  but large swathes of Donbas is being completely levelled. It’s going to be totally uninhabitable. It will take decades to rebuild and repopulate. If ever.

[River Don]

I think it's just symbolic now NR.

Putin needs to show he's won something. That the whole adventure was worthwhile. That all the lives lost are worth it

[normal rules]

Every day I wake up thinking today is the day he has been taken out, or driven off to some sanitarium in the gulag.
It will happen.
I have hope.

[River Don]

I'd settle for a good, big stroke NR.

[River Don]

A report out of Russia today:

Sooner or later, Europe will tire of helping. This is both money and arms production that they need for themselves. Closer to the fall, they’ll have to negotiate [with Russia] on gas and oil, before the cold season arrives.

[River Don]

Zelenski has made another statement this morning commiting Ukraine to pushing the Russians out of Donbas.

The Russians appear to be prepared to commit to the long haul.

The repercussions of this are likely to be very damaging globally I think.

[wilts rover]

A report out of Russia today:

Sooner or later, Europe will tire of helping. This is both money and arms production that they need for themselves. Closer to the fall, they’ll have to negotiate [with Russia] on gas and oil, before the cold season arrives.

Hmmm, have they been watching the reports coming out of Davos and getting a bit worried maybe?

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/05/25/explained-what-is-lng-and-why-does-the-eu-want-so-much-of-it

[BillyStubbsTears]

Imagine if you were Foreign Secretary.

Imagine if you were going to spend several thousand pounds of taxpayers' money making a video that was all about you and how important your work with important allies is. A self-publicity video to show how important you are.

Do you think, you being Foreign Secretary, you'd possibly check how to pronounce "Bosnia and Herzegovina"? Or would you just blurt it out wrong? Twice.

https://mobile.twitter.com/trussliz/status/1530466061463740416

And do you think you might have people around you who would be knowledgeable enough to say, "Err... Foreign Secretary..." when they heard you.

I look forward to her next visit to the United States of Americia.

[drfchound]

Jeeeez. Someone is running out of things to have a whine about methinks.

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's beginning to look like the new Russian tactic of throwing immense numbers at a focussed target is starting to pay off. Slowly but surely, sheer weight of numbers are starting to gain ground.

Which makes me wonder, is now a good time to give way at the negotiating table? This war is costing Russia so much but Putin needs a way out.

We could let them have some territory and it might bring this terrible war to an end.

Personally I don't think the Russian army is a threat now to Eastern Europe. They exhausted it trying to take Ukraine. Economically things must be hurting in Russia. And how long has Putin got, if he's as sick as reports suggest?

This war is likely to have a profound effect in Russia, as Afghanistan did. Perhaps now is the time to deescalate the situation?

Maybe but Ukraine is suffering, and appearing to be on a trail towards defeat. Their troops are not what is/was portrayed, and their equipment seems questionable.

The sooner it's done for Ukraine the better for them. Their position is getting progressively weaker, more so than it appears Russia's is.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I think it's just symbolic now NR.

Putin needs to show he's won something. That the whole adventure was worthwhile. That all the lives lost are worth it

The same can be said of the west. I don't thin it's going to their plan.

What can Ukraine realistically expect from negotiations at this point?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR. You need to get off your Russian propaganda channels and start looking at the big picture.

This is how Russian aims in the Donbas have shrunk over the past 3 months.

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1526856733188100098

They've just achieved capture of Severodonetsk.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST, is that a point of some kind that you're making? That doesn't back up what your saying.
There are consistent Russian advances across the whole East. Signs are this is accelerating.

We know a dug in, entrenched defending force is tough to move. The Ukraines have been there for many years. It's going to be interesting to see how they cope when falling back. They could be well prepared, maybe in some ways not. I doubt there'll be a collapse, at least not yet.

There is a danger that moral, losses, collapse could bring the Russians a lot of territory fairly quickly. Would they take it, go for destroying Ukraine further, or consolidate?

On that destruction score, it has to be asked why Ukraine is destroying so much of its own towns and cities? I guess that's war.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Still waiting to hear your suggestions for a solution. Or just sitting back and watching? Watching the BBC that is 

[danumdon]

BST, is that a point of some kind that you're making? That doesn't back up what your saying.
There are consistent Russian advances across the whole East. Signs are this is accelerating.

We know a dug in, entrenched defending force is tough to move. The Ukraines have been there for many years. It's going to be interesting to see how they cope when falling back. They could be well prepared, maybe in some ways not. I doubt there'll be a collapse, at least not yet.

There is a danger that moral, losses, collapse could bring the Russians a lot of territory fairly quickly. Would they take it, go for destroying Ukraine further, or consolidate?

On that destruction score, it has to be asked why Ukraine is destroying so much of its own towns and cities? I guess that's war.

Would you care to share your information that Ukraine is destroying its own town and cities?

[BillyStubbsTears]

"On that destruction score, it has to be asked why Ukraine is destroying so much of its own towns and cities?"

Because, of course, what they should have done is lay petals on the road when the Russian tanks first rolled in and invited Russia to take over the country.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST At least you recognise they are doing. Some fools see it as one sided, same with civilian deaths. And the use of human shields appears to be more Ukraine - most notably in Mariupol.

DD, they have guns and are shelling enemy positions and civilians. Lots of videos showing this. Guessing you haven't looked?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I recognise they are fighting like f**k to kick a fascist imperialist aggressor out of their country. What do YOU think they should do?

[BobG]

Winston Churchill deliberately engineered the torpedoing of the Lusitania. It's incontrovertible. He had a damn good reason for doing so. He wanted Germany to be seen to be responsible for drowning American citizens. He, and Britain employed some very dirty tricks indeed in the course of the whole episode. But, and for me this is important, in war, you do what you have to do. Part of that, of course, is presentation. Nobody doubts, I hope, that both sides are fighting to win. So arguing about 'who did what to whom' (in my best Clarkson voice) is pointless. Gratuitous violence is another matter of course, So the key thing worth noting is that Ukraine is winning the presentation war hands down.

BobG

[danumdon]

BST At least you recognise they are doing. Some fools see it as one sided, same with civilian deaths. And the use of human shields appears to be more Ukraine - most notably in Mariupol.

DD, they have guns and are shelling enemy positions and civilians. Lots of videos showing this. Guessing you haven't looked?

BRR

See, i would say that is defending your country and fighting off invaders, who after all have already reduced most of the towns into rubble.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is your regular reminder that people who come to a discussion with the preformed conclusion that NATO must be blamed will perform extraordinary mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that NATO is to blame.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I recognise they are fighting like f**k to kick a fascist imperialist aggressor out of their country. What do YOU think they should do?

I already said. The people there are caught in the midst of a battle for strategic and economic power play between the US/NATO, Russia and EU. The best exit strategy here for the Ukraine people is not more bloodshed, tho in the short term they're forced into that. .

[Bristol Red Rover]

This is your regular reminder that people who come to a discussion with the preformed conclusion that NATO must be blamed will perform extraordinary mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that NATO is to blame.

Do explain how US/NATO, all their politics and interference over many many years have not been at least half the cause of this?

[BillyStubbsTears]

QED