North Stand

[TonySoprano]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

Quite a big increase then.
I hope the club would consider it if we keep selling out the south stand.

[Chris Black come back]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

As you'll remember from previous exchanges, I'm sceptical that this increase would be achievable simply. Apart from the basic area of terrace (which I don't think works - you were going to send me some calculations from the architect who was advising you years ago but I never got them), there's the issues of ingress and egress rates which I think would be very strained with the current set up if we increased the West stand capacity by 70%.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this - these are mainly hunches from my own professional background in this area.

Then there’s the infrastructure toilets, catering etc. it won’t happen in our life time will it.

To justify that kind of investment and disruption, the club is going to want to see a few seasons of high demand which consistently cannot be satisfied in the current stadium. We’ve been there almost two decades and this has never remotely been the case.

[TonySoprano]

On tours of the ground you're told the expansion can happen in the voids behind the back of the North and South stands.  The corrugated metal sheet, where flags and advertising hang, hides the steels that hold the concrete for the seats.  A few extra rows can be added there. 

Is this true?

To be fair, I'm sure I heard the same on a stadium tour.

[DD]

At a Q & A session with the lead construction architect during the building of the Keepmoat I asked
“How technically difficult would it be to introduce safe standing for eg the South Stand? And how much would it cost?”
His reply “not difficult at all - relatively inexpensive”

[silent majority]

At a Q & A session with the lead construction architect during the building of the Keepmoat I asked
“How technically difficult would it be to introduce safe standing for eg the South Stand? And how much would it cost?”
His reply “not difficult at all - relatively inexpensive”

To be honest he wouldn’t have known as all the requirements to introduce SS into the UK market were developed many years down the line.

[normal rules]

Would safe standing actually increase the capacity of the SS though? My understanding is that rail
Seating still uses the same space as a seat ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

At a Q & A session with the lead construction architect during the building of the Keepmoat I asked
“How technically difficult would it be to introduce safe standing for eg the South Stand? And how much would it cost?”
His reply “not difficult at all - relatively inexpensive”

It WOULD be relatively easy to introduce it if you kept the capacity the same.

[drfchound]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

It would be ok if part of the south was safe standing and I seem to think that has been or is being looked at.
However there are also lots of people in there who need to be able to sit down most of the time.

[danumdon]

We might as well bin the screen off and put the seats back. It hasn’t worked properly for ages

I reckon the big screen acts as the fifth floodlight. Where i sit every time it changes colour it's like someone has just turned the lights on.

I'm sure i saw an old lad starting to shake last time it happened, talk about being caught in a spotlight.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It does feel like you are kebab meat when it goes red, and I'm sat 40 yards from it.

[danumdon]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

As you'll remember from previous exchanges, I'm sceptical that this increase would be achievable simply. Apart from the basic area of terrace (which I don't think works - you were going to send me some calculations from the architect who was advising you years ago but I never got them), there's the issues of ingress and egress rates which I think would be very strained with the current set up if we increased the West stand capacity by 70%.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this - these are mainly hunches from my own professional background in this area.

Could the capacity also be increased by adding a few extra rows of concrete terracing (to take seats) to the back of the existing stands all the way around the rear perimeter , a bit like what Sunderland did at the stadium of light.

I sit at the back of the stand and i've always thought you could add another few rows of terrace between the back steel frame, it would obviously require more supporting steelwork but this would be all in the void behind the current back wall. So the external frame would not require altering.

The viewing sight lines for the seats nearest the steel frame would not be the best but that would be factored into seat prices.

I haven't done the maths but three extra rows (no room for anyone over 2mts tall !)around most of the back perimeter wall could add a couple of thousand extra seats, i would say at not a massive outlay.

Or am i just talking nonsense!

[danumdon]

 

It does feel like you are kebab meat when it goes red, and I'm sat 40 yards from it.

Bloody Hell BST, you sound far too close for comfort 

[silent majority]

Would safe standing actually increase the capacity of the SS though? My understanding is that rail
Seating still uses the same space as a seat ?

You need to scroll back and see what I’ve written previously on this subject.

[silent majority]

At a Q & A session with the lead construction architect during the building of the Keepmoat I asked
“How technically difficult would it be to introduce safe standing for eg the South Stand? And how much would it cost?”
His reply “not difficult at all - relatively inexpensive”

It WOULD be relatively easy to introduce it if you kept the capacity the same.

Yes using today’s technology.

However at that point it wasn’t legal, therefore I can’t understand any architect saying it would be easy when there were no regulations applicable nor examples to refer to.

[danumdon]

On tours of the ground you're told the expansion can happen in the voids behind the back of the North and South stands.  The corrugated metal sheet, where flags and advertising hang, hides the steels that hold the concrete for the seats.  A few extra rows can be added there. 

Is this true?

Sorry mate  i didnt see your post when i posted mine further down the thread.

[BillyStubbsTears]

At a Q & A session with the lead construction architect during the building of the Keepmoat I asked
“How technically difficult would it be to introduce safe standing for eg the South Stand? And how much would it cost?”
His reply “not difficult at all - relatively inexpensive”

It WOULD be relatively easy to introduce it if you kept the capacity the same.

Yes using today’s technology.

However at that point it wasn’t legal, therefore I can’t understand any architect saying it would be easy when there were no regulations applicable nor examples to refer to.

Maybe it was a "in principle it could be relatively easy depending on details, if and when etc, etc". Any professional in the game even back then would have known that the technical solutions for the seating area in isolation weren't hard.

[silent majority]

At a Q & A session with the lead construction architect during the building of the Keepmoat I asked
“How technically difficult would it be to introduce safe standing for eg the South Stand? And how much would it cost?”
His reply “not difficult at all - relatively inexpensive”

It WOULD be relatively easy to introduce it if you kept the capacity the same.

Yes using today’s technology.

However at that point it wasn’t legal, therefore I can’t understand any architect saying it would be easy when there were no regulations applicable nor examples to refer to.

Maybe it was a "in principle it could be relatively easy depending on details, if and when etc, etc". Any professional in the game even back then would have known that the technical solutions for the seating area in isolation weren't hard.

If you say so.

But a further complication for DRFC would be that they accepted funding from the Football Foundation, a couple of million or more if memory serves.

That would have to be repaid before any discussions could take place and was quite obviously prohibitive. It was a factor that had to be included for new stadiums at the time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Im not sure why you have to be so spiky on this issue. I've no idea what that architect may or may not have said. I'm simply musing on a fact that I'd have thought you'd have agreed on.

[GazLaz]

If we put on an extra tier we would lose some of the road around the ground in that area. Sure there would be room to move it further back.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If we put on an extra tier we would lose some of the road around the ground in that area. Sure there would be room to move it further back.

Not absolutely necessarily. An extra tier could fit above the concourse, and wouldn't necessarily require new structure down to ground level outside the footprint of the existing stadium.

Ingress and egress to an upper tier might be a challenge to fit in within the existing footprint, mind.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It does feel like you are kebab meat when it goes red, and I'm sat 40 yards from it.

Bloody Hell BST, you sound far too close for comfort 

Yep. I'm that t**t just down from you...

[GazLaz]

If we put on an extra tier we would lose some of the road around the ground in that area. Sure there would be room to move it further back.

Not absolutely necessarily. An extra tier could fit above the concourse, and wouldn't necessarily require new structure down to ground level outside the footprint of the existing stadium.

Ingress and egress to an upper tier might be a challenge to fit in within the existing footprint, mind.

Very very unlikely they would be able to add another tier without putting in extra piles in that road and building out.

[johnny rovers]

If we put on an extra tier we would lose some of the road around the ground in that area. Sure there would be room to move it further back.

Not absolutely necessarily. An extra tier could fit above the concourse, and wouldn't necessarily require new structure down to ground level outside the footprint of the existing stadium.

Ingress and egress to an upper tier might be a challenge to fit in within the existing footprint, mind.

Very very unlikely they would be able to add another tier without putting in extra piles in that road and building out.

The back wall of the last row in the stands isn't the back of the stadium. The structure goes back almost ten meters. I.e the south stand club offices are behind the back row, but not directly behind, more beneath the back row.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If we put on an extra tier we would lose some of the road around the ground in that area. Sure there would be room to move it further back.

Not absolutely necessarily. An extra tier could fit above the concourse, and wouldn't necessarily require new structure down to ground level outside the footprint of the existing stadium.

Ingress and egress to an upper tier might be a challenge to fit in within the existing footprint, mind.

Very very unlikely they would be able to add another tier without putting in extra piles in that road and building out.

I disagree for the West Stand at least (haven't been in the others much). There's (at a guess) 12-14m between the current back row of seats and the outer wall of the concourse. You could place a new upper tier above that concourse with maybe 12-16 rows of seats without extending  outside the footprint of the concourse. Would probably get you another 2500 seats in total. Whether that would make economic sense or whether you'd be better building a lot more capacity by extending backwards is another matter.

[johnny rovers]

What about the option to dig down and put in three to four extra rows of seating all the way around the ground. 

This would get fans closer to the action and be in top of the game more. A bit like at Rotherham.

There is the space to do this easily.

[normal rules]

All this talk of extra tiers is all well and good, but it will never happen until such time as rovers consistently sell out matches, and it could be proven that there is extra demand to support enlargement. And even then, it would require huge investment to make it happen.
An owner with very very deep pockets, happy to spend millions knowing they wouldn’t get it back. Unless rovers ever made the prem of course.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Something else to bear in mind.

When we won this division in 03/04, at a time when we were full of drive and optimism, our average attendance was under 7000.

We've topped that this year, even though we've been in the bottom 6 for the majority of the season.

Plus, in 03/04, we had a lot of local derbies. Hull, Huddersfield, Scunthorpe, Mansfield, Lincoln, York. Nothing like that this year. EDIT. On second thoughts, I'm maybe overplaying this a bit. I was only thinking of Bradford and Mansfield. I forgot Notts C, Grimsby, Stockport and Wrexham all bringing good away followings.

I know the counter argument. That was in OBV. But that's part of the point. Over the last decade and a half, we've had a generation of new supporters who have joined us in a modern stadium, with, generally, decent, successful, high-ish level football being served up. That's a generation that is secured for the long haul, whereas when we last made the Championship, we were still coming out of 50 years of failure and low interest in the town.

Note that, even when we spent nearly all of 16/17 in the top 5 of this division, we only just topped 6000 as an average.

This year's, and even last year's attendances indicate that something has changed. There's a bigger bedrock of loyal fans than we've had in my lifetime now.

I suspect that if we did become established in the Championship (big if) we'd be selling out the home tickets pretty much every week.

Worth pondering in terms of what the potential fanbase now is.

Agree with most of that BST with the exception of Stockports following this season

Fair point.

To be honest, I wasn't in the ground long enough to focus on the away end that day.

[danumdon]

What about the option to dig down and put in three to four extra rows of seating all the way around the ground. 

This would get fans closer to the action and be in top of the game more. A bit like at Rotherham.

There is the space to do this easily.

It would certainly get the fans closer to the action, the trouble is though it would probably be water polo.

Have you seen the water table level around the ground, go any deeper and we might even start to incorporate the lake into the stadium!!

[danumdon]

It does feel like you are kebab meat when it goes red, and I'm sat 40 yards from it.

Bloody Hell BST, you sound far too close for comfort 

Yep. I'm that t**t just down from you...

Yep, but the trouble is there are a few just down from me, they all look like your avatar!

[BillyStubbsTears]

It does feel like you are kebab meat when it goes red, and I'm sat 40 yards from it.

Bloody Hell BST, you sound far too close for comfort 

Yep. I'm that t**t just down from you...

Yep, but the trouble is there are a few just down from me, they all look like your avatar!

I like to blend in.