Hillsborough Inquiry

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've got a particular interest in the Hillsborough Inquiry, given that my professional connection was closer than I would have wished. So it's been a traumatic week, looking through the released documents about the mistakes that the company I worked for at the time made.

But there is something far, far more sinister afoot than the honest, but wrong decisions made by the technical people connected with the club.

The information set out here is chilling.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19601652

This is clear prima facie evidence of the cover-up operation that went into force after the disaster. The comments by PC Bruder are terrifying - he accuses both the West Midlands Police and the Coroner (Correction: The pathologist) of applying pressure on him to change his story. Page 6 of this document
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/AGO000001140001.pdf

What was the motive behind this pressure on Bruder? And why on earth should the pathologist telephone Bruder on the very day that the West Mids officer visited him,  more than a year after the disaster?

For anyone who has ever read a David Peace novel and thought, "Good read but could never happen in reality", this is like the most sinister novel plot brought to life.

[wilts rover]

Did you see the Channel 4 documentary this week on Hillsborough? I missed the first 20mins and only had half an eye on the rest but I did see the interview with the PO who was shown the report/witness statement that he 'wrote' of his account of that day. Its not what I wrote, its been doctored, there are bits missing, is the paraphrasing of his comments.

The people we trust to keep us safe lied, and then lied again about those lies, not everyone of them, but some very important ones. I would like to say I was shocked, but I wasn't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

No I didn't see that. But it fits the narrative.

I am still struggling to see the importance of the 15:15 cut-off - why so many people seem to have colluded in making sure that the record said that everyone was dead at 15:15. There is now so much evidence built up on that point that it looks as though there was a huge a co-ordinated job done to make sure that the historical record said that everyone was dead by 15:15, and no mistakes made after that time are worth investigating.

Why?

The evidence linked to on that BBC page shows two cases that both claim duress was applied to police officers who claimed to have seen victims alive well after 15:15. One could be dismissed as a mistake made by an over-wrought PTSD victim. Two, separate, but very similar cases are far harder to dismiss.

And then there is the conclusion of this week's report that 41 people were probably still alive at 15:15.

So what on God's earth was the Coroner doing refusing to investigate beyond 15:15? And why were police and a pathologist apparently trying to get witnesses to change statements that clearly said that people were alive after 15:15.

The nub of the question. Who stood to be protected by these actions?

[neil grainger]

BST...it's late and I'm off to bed now but I'm sure I've got something about that 15.15 cut-off which shows it was a complete fabrication.
I'll try to find it.

[silent majority]

Over the years I've done several TV and radio interviews where Hillsborough is discussed, usually because of my 'Safe Standing' involvement, and therefore I've read the Taylor reports numerous times. What always amazed me is that he quite clearly states in there everything we already know, that the Police lied and covered up their mistakes, that fans were not to blame, that they were not drunk etc etc and yet its taken all these years for it to be taken seriously. I'm glad its now happened of course, but I still can't understand why its taken so long.

The good thing is that behind the scenes so to speak there has been movement on a broad range of supporter issues, the authorities have had the wake up call they needed and engagement is the top subject.

[The Red Baron]

BST- I haven't gone into the Hillsborough Inquiry, but as you say in another posting, the 3.15 cut-off fits with the narrative that the police were trying to present as fact. That cut-off would (they believed) absolve them from questions as to why they (and the other emergency services) did not do more to attend to the injured. By that time it would have been clear that this was not "spectator disorder." Imposing that cut-off implied that people's lives could not have been saved, when we now know that in fact they could have been.

[silent majority]

Only 14 of the deceased ever made it to hospital, shocking!

[Sprotyrover]

I've got a particular interest in the Hillsborough Inquiry, given that my professional connection was closer than I would have wished. So it's been a traumatic week, looking through the released documents about the mistakes that the company I worked for at the time made.

But there is something far, far more sinister afoot than the honest, but wrong decisions made by the technical people connected with the club.

The information set out here is chilling.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19601652

This is clear prima facie evidence of the cover-up operation that went into force after the disaster. The comments by PC Bruder are terrifying - he accuses both the West Midlands Police and the Coroner (Correction: The pathologist) of applying pressure on him to change his story. Page 6 of this document
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/AGO000001140001.pdf

What was the motive behind this pressure on Bruder? And why on earth should the pathologist telephone Bruder on the very day that the West Mids officer visited him,  more than a year after the disaster?

For anyone who has ever read a David Peace novel and thought, "Good read but could never happen in reality", this is like the most sinister novel plot brought to life.

In relation to the WPC I would point out that she was probably suffering from hysteria, I have personal experience of a 'Dead body' sitting up and sighing 30 mins after death was pronouced by three Doctors in the recovery room at A&E
it was when I got a summer job at DRI as a porter we went for the body and went into the recovery room where two nurses were preparing the body for the morgue,the body an RAF man from finningley was dead from heart failure, he suddenly sat up and sighed, both nurses screamed and then shouted a doctor in,the doctor examined him and said "he's dead its a combination of wind and his muscles contracting after death" .it was a very strange event!!!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Did he talk to you as well?

[Sprotyrover]

No he didnt and he didnt have a crushed larynx either!!!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

Interesting issue there, but I'm not sure that is the point. That would (in a correctly functioning system) be a factor for the Coroner to take into account in coming to his judgement. It was not for other police officers to "encourage" someone to change their statement.

[Sprotyrover]

BST agreed, I read the reports from your first link and noted what the specialists had to say about the possibllity of that poor lad still being alive or having spoken.

I was merely quoting in that context and I wanted to relate my own personal experience to you of a dead body behaving in a peculiar way, no doubt the Coroner and pathologists involved in this matter were all very experienced in things that can occur after death which is why they were dimissive of the Police Womans account.

 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Point taken Sproty. I wasn't dismissing what you said.

Issue with the Coroner though is that whilst he SHOULD have been utilising his experience, it is now clear to everyone (and I cannot understand how it could not have been clear to him at the time) that many, many peoe were alive after 15:15. This is by far and away the biggest issue left to resolve over Hillsborough. Why the system that us supposed to fully and dispassionately investigate deaths failed so spectacularly in this case.

[Glyn_Wigley]

No he didnt and he didnt have a crushed larynx either!!!

If you'd have watched the Hillsborough documentary last week you'd know that he could still have talked with the larynx injuries he'd sustained (which wasn't a crushed larynx, that was yet another cover-up lie), as determined by the private post mortem.

[Sprotyrover]

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/HOM000032340001.html

Have a read of Debra Martins statements and tell me if you really think she heard that lad talk.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yes, I do, and she said it again when she was interviewed for the documentary. I'll tell you something else, I'f I'd have presented written witness statements in that shoddy and irregular condition when I conducted interviews under caution, I'd have been given a bollocking.

[Sprotyrover]

she didnt know what planet she was on after 3pm she had completely lost it!!!,in her statement she has herself pushed into the ground and then she's back in leppings lane outside the ground a few minutes later.

Not the most reliable witness, and at the end of the day an untrained member of the public who probably joined the specials to watch Wendy's for free.

I tried to find the documentary you mentioned but only found one by Look North which didnt go into any detail about the matter we are discussing

[wilts rover]

Yes sorry it was Channel 5 not 4, its here:

http://www.channel5.com/shows/the-truth-about-hillsborough/episodes/the-truth-about-hillsborough