Point of Order

[bobbymax]

Leeds chairman Ken Bates has turned up the heat on manager Simon Grayson by insisting the club's current position of seventh in the Championship is not good enough.

Bates has also confirmed \"heart-searching\" discussions have been taking place among Elland Road staff this week in a bid to propel the Whites up the table.

United headed into the international break on the back of a 1-0 victory at Leicester City, the win coming on the back of a horrific 5-0 home defeat to Blackpool.

Leeds are out of the play-off spots only on goal difference and while Bates was pleased to see United bounce back from the Blackpool loss he wants more from Grayson and the players.

Bates told the Yorkshire Evening Post: \"Well you have got to commend it, but you also have got to do soul-searching on why we have lost the games we've lost and why have we drawn the games we've drawn.

\"And, without being too critical, the fact of the matter is we have lost games rather than been beaten. We have given away the points rather than them being earned by the opposition and that's something that we've had too much of and it's got to stop.

\"There are discussions going on this week, heart-searching in the backroom to decide what we can do to improve the situation because we should be higher than we are.\"

Well actually, Uncle Ken, if you'd done the decent thing and not robbed your creditors of what they were owed, you're probably about nine divisions above where you should be. :angry:

[vaya]

Further point of order - this implies Ken Bates has a heart.

[The L J Monk]

Great stuff. Any Charlton news?

[vaya]

I think that Welsh witch might still be after him, but it's been a while since its been on.

[The L J Monk]

More of a Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors man.

[AbsolutDRFC]

Leeds chairman Ken Bates has turned up the heat on manager Simon Grayson by insisting the club's current position of seventh in the Championship is not good enough.

Bates has also confirmed \"heart-searching\" discussions have been taking place among Elland Road staff this week in a bid to propel the Whites up the table.

United headed into the international break on the back of a 1-0 victory at Leicester City, the win coming on the back of a horrific 5-0 home defeat to Blackpool.

Leeds are out of the play-off spots only on goal difference and while Bates was pleased to see United bounce back from the Blackpool loss he wants more from Grayson and the players.

Bates told the Yorkshire Evening Post: \"Well you have got to commend it, but you also have got to do soul-searching on why we have lost the games we've lost and why have we drawn the games we've drawn.

\"And, without being too critical, the fact of the matter is we have lost games rather than been beaten. We have given away the points rather than them being earned by the opposition and that's something that we've had too much of and it's got to stop.

\"There are discussions going on this week, heart-searching in the backroom to decide what we can do to improve the situation because we should be higher than we are.\"

Well actually, Uncle Ken, if you'd done the decent thing and not robbed your creditors of what they were owed, you're probably about nine divisions above where you should be. :angry:

Totally agree with Ken Bates. He needs to get rid of Grayson, so Leeds can get back to playing dirty hoofball like they used to do.

Best \"footballing\" manager Leeds have had in years, is Grayson.

[Wellington Vaults]

Uncle Ken ought to have a look at this;

http://www.thescratchingshed.com/2011/11/simon-grayson-a-bargain-at-56320-per-point/

I'd send it to him, if I didn't think he would ban/sue/excommunicate/execute me.

[scuzzer]

That article reckons our current squad has cost over £3.3m, that sounds a tad high?

[AbsolutDRFC]

Uncle Ken ought to have a look at this;

http://www.thescratchingshed.com/2011/11/simon-grayson-a-bargain-at-56320-per-point/

I'd send it to him, if I didn't think he would ban/sue/excommunicate/execute me.

Amazed Uncle Ken hasn't turned up in a Dan Brown or Steig Larsson (bit late now like) book..
All that intrigue, all that white beardness....

To be honest, I didn't think Leeds had spent that much \"officially\"; as a lot of the deals appear to be \"undisclosed\" nowadays.
The McCormack transfer, I'd have thought would've been a good £750k? But it would be interesting to know what it officially got reported as.

[mushRTID]

who gives a shit?

[benaldo]

That same article shows an interesting piece of information for all the people on here who suspect JR of being economical with the truth.

In the section on Clubs Income and Wages the following information is offered for the period 2009/2010 -

Doncaster Rovers
Income - 10 Million
Wages - 7 Million

Wages to Turnover = 68%.

Now I don't want to start any conspiracy theorists off, but haven't we always been told that the club never turns over enough to pay the running costs? I make a 3 million pound difference with those figures. If you include the 3 million that JR says the directors have been putting in each year for the past 3 years it leaves 6 million pounds floating about. Either the turnover figure includes the 3 million given by directors or it doesn't. If it does, then why is there an apparent 3 million profit?

Very, very, very strange. :dry:

[RoversDave]

So the only money you spend each week is the money you give to Mrs Benaldo?

[benaldo]

In fact, the blog the info comes from is very interesting. Here's an article on Derby County (OK, so what) but in it there are some very interesting graphics on the financial state of championship football clubs - the info mostly relates to last season, so it's pretty up to date -.

It comes across quite clearly that Rovers are punching so far above their weight it's an absolute miracle that they are in the Championship! It's an interesting read.

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011/11/derby-countys-american-dream.html#uds-search-results

What also stands out is that Sheffield Utd are so far up shit creek that a paddle would be classed as witchcraft!

We all know the problems - Low crowds, high wages, no spending, but to see it all in context against the other clubs really shows you how small Rovers are. Thank goodness for the involvement of Mackay, because it gives the impossible a chance to become possible.

[benaldo]

So the only money you spend each week is the money you give to Mrs Benaldo?

She's earns more than I do by a long way as it happens.

However, after you take out the wages (which includes players, kit washers, the people in the club shop, groundsmen, the bog cleaner) then what's left to play with the 3 million? What's the SMC rent? How much is the electricity? The gas? How much is a football?

Thing is, what you're saying is that the surplus is making up the difference. I'm just questioning that. I just have a sneaky suspicion that Rovers kind of trundles along without needing much financial input to keep it alive at the moment. Getting it moving up the league and better players perhaps is another matter, but as for turning over enough to pay for it's existence, maybe JR might be over egging the truth? Just maybe?

[Bristol Red Rover]

However, after you take out the wages (which includes players, kit washers, the people in the club shop, groundsmen, the bog cleaner) then what's left to play with the 3 million? What's the SMC rent? How much is the electricity? The gas? How much is a football?

I'm not sure it does include wages beyond the players - where does it say that? There's also transfers, and I think £1m for the Keepmoat, interest and payments on debts/loans?, the training facilities, travel and accomodation, hospitality etc etc. Having said that, it would be interesting to know the exact figures, but guess we just have to trust JR on that.

[ravenrover]

And don't forget the Agents fees

[drfcdrfc]

What is this leeds obsession with our fans? f**king get over it, they don't care about us! Sad and pathetic.

[Berkshire Rover]

So the only money you spend each week is the money you give to Mrs Benaldo?

She's earns more than I do by a long way as it happens.

However, after you take out the wages (which includes players, kit washers, the people in the club shop, groundsmen, the bog cleaner) then what's left to play with the 3 million? What's the SMC rent? How much is the electricity? The gas? How much is a football?

Thing is, what you're saying is that the surplus is making up the difference. I'm just questioning that. I just have a sneaky suspicion that Rovers kind of trundles along without needing much financial input to keep it alive at the moment. Getting it moving up the league and better players perhaps is another matter, but as for turning over enough to pay for it's existence, maybe JR might be over egging the truth? Just maybe?

One day when I work out how to do it, I will put up the full accounts for Patienceform but suffice to say for the year to May 2010 the company's income was 9.8 m and they made an operating loss of just under £1m.

[PDS]

As i remember it from a previous Q&A with JR, share purchases in the club are treated as revenue. gievn that's how our directors make up each years shortfall it doesn't seem unreasonable that the £10m figure includes the directors extra input

[inSODwetrust]

Pointless thread!!

[benaldo]

So the only money you spend each week is the money you give to Mrs Benaldo?

She's earns more than I do by a long way as it happens.

However, after you take out the wages (which includes players, kit washers, the people in the club shop, groundsmen, the bog cleaner) then what's left to play with the 3 million? What's the SMC rent? How much is the electricity? The gas? How much is a football?

Thing is, what you're saying is that the surplus is making up the difference. I'm just questioning that. I just have a sneaky suspicion that Rovers kind of trundles along without needing much financial input to keep it alive at the moment. Getting it moving up the league and better players perhaps is another matter, but as for turning over enough to pay for it's existence, maybe JR might be over egging the truth? Just maybe?

One day when I work out how to do it, I will put up the full accounts for Patienceform but suffice to say for the year to May 2010 the company's income was 9.8 m and they made an operating loss of just under £1m.

I can't honestly say I fully understand the Rovers finances, I don't. But, there are a couple of things that I do have trouble understanding that I perhaps shouldn't.

1) JR has mentioned a few times that the directors have to put in 3 million a year (over the past few years) to ensure the club breaks even.
2) Most reports show \"Wages\" at 7 million.
3) Income is shown as, like you say, 10 million.

I can't work that out. Is the \"Income\" figure of 10 million inclusive of the 3 million JR says the directors invest? If so, then costs outside of wages must equal 4 million a year to run a deficit of 1 million....surely?

Not having a go at JR of course, it's perhaps more to do with doing some reading on football finances and wondering why they are so murky?