Today is.........

[Bentley Bullet]

.....

[Bentley Bullet]

Not f**king one! My theory proved correct! 

[Nudga]

That's strange, this is the first time I've seen this post and I was checking in quite a lot yesterday.
Happy St Georges Day BTW.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Big National Days are for countries who feel that they need to make a big deal about their national identity. They are for plucky underdogs, fragmenting states and states that have been artificially rammed together.

They are useful for people and countries who feel threatened.

It should be a source of satisfaction that we are safe, secure and comfortable enough to not need to make a big deal about celebrating the day of some semi-mythical middle-eastern soldier.

[Bentley Bullet]

Big national days are for people to show pride in their country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's your take BB. You are welcome to it.

Personally, I do my very best to show my pride in my country every time I interact with people from another country. I try to show them that we produce intelligent, hardworking, thoughtful, strong and understanding people.

I'll be doing that at a meeting in Cologne on Wednesday, where I will need to convince some very high ranking German people that my analysis of a particular situation is correct and theirs is wrong. That the work done by my (entirely English) team is more thorough, accurate and believable than the work done by their (entirely German) team.

If I can pull it off, I'll be extremely proud of my team and the country, educational system and society that produced them.

Wrapping a St George flag round me and singing Land of Hope and Glory this weekend wouldn't really help me a lot.

[Bentley Bullet]

I interact with people from another country without even leaving Bentley. I see inebriated Irish celebrating St Paddy's day and Scots getting pissed up on Robbie Burns' night. I try to show them that us English can be just as patriotic by wrapping my St George's flag round me and singing Land of Hope and Glory on the April 23rd every year. I find it helps me a lot in showing pride in my country.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Big national days are for people to show pride in their country.

Surpisingly, replying to a random thread on an internet forum isn't the only way you can show pride in your country. Nor is using your patron saint's day as an excuse to get pissed.

[Bentley Bullet]

Not surprisingly, here comes the cavalry.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Terribly sorry I didn't read this thread before BST, I must try harder. Not that it makes any difference as I'm speaking for me, nobody else.

[Bentley Bullet]

Apology accepted.

[The Red Baron]

Big National Days are for countries who feel that they need to make a big deal about their national identity. They are for plucky underdogs, fragmenting states and states that have been artificially rammed together.

They are useful for people and countries who feel threatened.

It should be a source of satisfaction that we are safe, secure and comfortable enough to not need to make a big deal about celebrating the day of some semi-mythical middle-eastern soldier.

Where does the USA and the 4th July fit into that?

[wilts rover]

Big National Days are for countries who feel that they need to make a big deal about their national identity. They are for plucky underdogs, fragmenting states and states that have been artificially rammed together.

They are useful for people and countries who feel threatened.

It should be a source of satisfaction that we are safe, secure and comfortable enough to not need to make a big deal about celebrating the day of some semi-mythical middle-eastern soldier.

Where does the USA and the 4th July fit into that?

The states that have been artifically rammed together bit - or in their case nation building after a very bitter and divisive conflict.

[The Red Baron]

Big National Days are for countries who feel that they need to make a big deal about their national identity. They are for plucky underdogs, fragmenting states and states that have been artificially rammed together.

They are useful for people and countries who feel threatened.

It should be a source of satisfaction that we are safe, secure and comfortable enough to not need to make a big deal about celebrating the day of some semi-mythical middle-eastern soldier.

Where does the USA and the 4th July fit into that?

The states that have been artifically rammed together bit - or in their case nation building after a very bitter and divisive conflict.

I agree. Most countries tick at least one of the boxes.

On that basis, is England supposed to be the single exception?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Big National Days are for countries who feel that they need to make a big deal about their national identity. They are for plucky underdogs, fragmenting states and states that have been artificially rammed together.

They are useful for people and countries who feel threatened.

It should be a source of satisfaction that we are safe, secure and comfortable enough to not need to make a big deal about celebrating the day of some semi-mythical middle-eastern soldier.

Where does the USA and the 4th July fit into that?

That's a celebration of the anniversary of the founding of the nation. It's a celebration of a very specific event. Many states have a similar day to commemorate their founding. Usually as the result of some struggle for independence against a country that previously colonised/subjugated them (eg USA, Poland, Iceland) or commemorating some internal revolution or political reorganisation (France, China, Italy, Germany).

We don't have any of those moments in our history. We are amazingly fortunate to have had the level of stability and peace that we have had in our history which means that (apart from the torture and burning alive of a Catholic traitor) we don't have many major historical events to celebrate.

I guess you can instead , if you like, as a compensation, choose an arbitrary day to wrap yourself in the flag, have a skinful and celebrate the mythical exploits of a Roman soldier who lived a millennium or so before the concept of England existed and about 2000 miles from our island.  Just seems a bit pointless to me.

[The Red Baron]

By the same token, the Irish shouldn't really celebrate St Patrick's Day. However they do it to reflect their pride in being Irish. I don't think there is anything wrong in English people doing likewise.

[idler]

I watched the scouts including two grandsons march to Bradford cathedral. That seemed very English to me. 😀

[wilts rover]

The thing is though St George wasn't English or even the patron saint of the English. That was St Edmund. St George was a foreign saint forced on us by Franco-Norman rulers. So really by celebrating the day of St George what you are actually celebrating is not English national identity but England being ruled by Europe.

[RedJ]

And even he was German.

[The Red Baron]

The thing is though St George wasn't English or even the patron saint of the English. That was St Edmund. St George was a foreign saint forced on us by Franco-Norman rulers. So really by celebrating the day of St George what you are actually celebrating is not English national identity but England being ruled by Europe.

Given that we seem likely to vote to continue to be ruled from Europe I don't think that is a problem.

However, for those aren't particularly precious about St George but think there should be a day when we celebrate England and Englishness, how about the anniversary of the signing of Magna Carta? 15th June, IIRC. It would be nice to have a public holiday somewhere between the end of May and the end of August.

Failing that, 30th July, which is a date that should be dear to every English person's heart.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the same token, the Irish shouldn't really celebrate St Patrick's Day. However they do it to reflect their pride in being Irish. I don't think there is anything wrong in English people doing likewise.

TRB
I don't follow. The Irish make a big play about their nationality, sure. But there are two huge aspects to that which we English don't share.

1) They started to assert their Irish nationality from the late 1800s as part of the emerging independence movement (ie their overt celebration of nationalism is intimately connected with the move to throw off a colonial yoke - one of the things I mentioned earlier).

2) There is a huge Irish diaspora. Many of the most fervent St Patrick's Day celebrations (eg Boston) involve people wanting to assert their links to the old country.

Totally different case to England.

[Bentley Bullet]

The point is some people look for a reason to show pride in our country, whereas others look for a reason not to.

[The Red Baron]

There's lots of people around the world who can trace their roots back to England. And if the Irish wished to celebrate the anti-colonial struggle they would surely choose a significant date from that rather than a religious festival.

My point is really that it is seen as somehow wrong to celebrate England and Englishness. In a way that it isn't wrong to celebrate Irishness, or even Scottishness or Welshness.

[Bentley Bullet]

Correct TRB!

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

I've not seen anyone on here say it's wrong. That prickly defensiveness comes up regularly on this topic (in general I mean, not by you) and I've never understood it. It feels as though people want to have something to define themselves against (them unpatriotic people over there who are spoiling our fun).

Celebrate St George's Day by all means if you want to. Wrap yourself in the flag and drink warm ale. Knock yourself out. Just don't do BB's thing of reading stuff into the motives of people who choose not to.

[Bentley Bullet]

One theory of mine for the reason why this thread was originally unanswered is that some people chose not to in fear of being chastised by the Viking PC mafia.....That handful of people who's leader may call you a cretin for having a different opinion to him.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm guessing your theory has probably evaporated after today's exchange then BB, eh?

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS.

On the off chance that this omnipotent leader that you're talking about is me, I'd be grateful if you would back up your silliness by pointing out when I have ever called someone a cretin for disagreeing with me. As opposed to the regular times I've called people cretins for acting like cretins.

[Bentley Bullet]

Hopefully BST, but alas I guess not.

[Bentley Bullet]

You have called me, along with others, a cretin, in the past. We were collectively called  'cretins' by you for acting like cretins by disagreeing with you.

Oh, that along with also being a retard........