South stand Saturday

[Padge_DRFC]

Has every individual seat been sold out then? Unreserved and people in groups might be a few issues maybe or have they left say 50 free just incase?

[Yorkiered]

Has every individual seat been sold out then? Unreserved and people in groups might be a few issues maybe or have they left say 50 free just incase?

I believe SM posted that if it is unallocated seating they cannot sell the whole capacity.

[keith79]

Any tickets left?

[Filo]

Has every individual seat been sold out then? Unreserved and people in groups might be a few issues maybe or have they left say 50 free just incase?

I believe SM posted that if it is unallocated seating they cannot sell the whole capacity.

I don't understand why, a capacity is a capacity, what difference does it make?

[Copps is Magic]

I think it may be to prevent overcrowding in one area of the stand. It definitely is needed because people tend to turn up before kick-off and crowd in the same area.

[DRFC-Hanksie]

People were half way down the steps in the black bank just before 2nd half started on Scunny.

[Filo]

I think it may be to prevent overcrowding in one area of the stand. It definitely is needed because people tend to turn up before kick-off and crowd in the same area.

OK, I get that folk will want to sit/stand together, but if one seat = one person, how can it become overcrowded, get in early if you wish to sit/srand together, otherwise accept that you'll have to sit/stand where the spare seats are

[Copps is Magic]

Any tickets left?

Yes, South East Corner has just been released on the online ticket site. Few left in the East and West. It looks like when they said the South was sold out they weren't including the corners.

[PopStander]

In The Black Bank of the South, everyone stands and you get more than one to a seat which frees up a seat somewhere, up at the top will be nuts Saturday!

[silent majority]

Has every individual seat been sold out then? Unreserved and people in groups might be a few issues maybe or have they left say 50 free just incase?

I believe SM posted that if it is unallocated seating they cannot sell the whole capacity.

I don't understand why, a capacity is a capacity, what difference does it make?

We're talking about safety issues here. If you want to sell every seat then you need allocated seating, that way you don't get overcrowding and having too many people in the same area. You want the flexibility of unreserved seating then you need an overflow area. Take a look around every stadium you go to and see the whole blocks that are reserved for that very purpose. Its all documented by the SGSA in the 'Green Guide' which is the bible of stadium safety.

Taken to its extreme you get the same as we did at Hillsborough, too many people in one area with nowhere to go. And on that day the Leppings Lane end wasn't at capacity.

[Filo]

Has every individual seat been sold out then? Unreserved and people in groups might be a few issues maybe or have they left say 50 free just incase?

I believe SM posted that if it is unallocated seating they cannot sell the whole capacity.

I don't understand why, a capacity is a capacity, what difference does it make?

We're talking about safety issues here. If you want to sell every seat then you need allocated seating, that way you don't get overcrowding and having too many people in the same area. You want the flexibility of unreserved seating then you need an overflow area. Take a look around every stadium you go to and see the whole blocks that are reserved for that very purpose. Its all documented by the SGSA in the 'Green Guide' which is the bible of stadium safety.

Taken to its extreme you get the same as we did at Hillsborough, too many people in one area with nowhere to go. And on that day the Leppings Lane end wasn't at capacity.

I must be thick, 1 seat = 1 ticket, how can the area become overcrowded?

[Copps is Magic]

I take it you don't sit/stand in the South Filo? Even when it's been half full for games this season there has been crowding in certain areas. You aren't fighting against what should happen in theory, you're fighting against human psychology.

[Filo]

I take it you don't sit/stand in the South Filo? Even when it's been half full for games this season there has been crowding in certain areas. You aren't fighting against what should happen in theory, you're fighting against human psychology.

No I don't, I just can't get my head around capacity being reduced because a ticket hasn't got a seat number on it, 3k seats = 3k tickets printed, how can it be overcrowded if it's unreserved? As opposed to reserved?

[silent majority]

I take it you don't sit/stand in the South Filo? Even when it's been half full for games this season there has been crowding in certain areas. You aren't fighting against what should happen in theory, you're fighting against human psychology.

No I don't, I just can't get my head around capacity being reduced because a ticket hasn't got a seat number on it, 3k seats = 3k tickets printed, how can it be overcrowded if it's unreserved? As opposed to reserved?

C'mon Dave, we're talking about the movement of people here. You must have been to sell out games with allocated seating, i.e Scunthorpe, Sheff Utd, and seen the chaos that causes. Now take away the allocation and its a recipe for disaster.

I'm glad you're not our Safety Officer!

PS, explain the overcrowding at Hillsborough for me.

[Copps is Magic]

Because it changes people's mindset completely. It's a matter of behaviour. Instead of coming into the stand, looking at your ticket and then searching for your designated seat you instead discard your ticket and just look for the nearest (or most favourable) place to stand/sit. If you add alcohol and standing into that mix (and the fact that people are free to move about during the game as a result) it gets a bit edgy at times.

[IDM]

I take it you don't sit/stand in the South Filo? Even when it's been half full for games this season there has been crowding in certain areas. You aren't fighting against what should happen in theory, you're fighting against human psychology.

No I don't, I just can't get my head around capacity being reduced because a ticket hasn't got a seat number on it, 3k seats = 3k tickets printed, how can it be overcrowded if it's unreserved? As opposed to reserved?

People move around too. Therefore you need space, like this:



ps, that is not meant to be condescending, just illustrative..

[Filo]

I take it you don't sit/stand in the South Filo? Even when it's been half full for games this season there has been crowding in certain areas. You aren't fighting against what should happen in theory, you're fighting against human psychology.

No I don't, I just can't get my head around capacity being reduced because a ticket hasn't got a seat number on it, 3k seats = 3k tickets printed, how can it be overcrowded if it's unreserved? As opposed to reserved?

C'mon Dave, we're talking about the movement of people here. You must have been to sell out games with allocated seating, i.e Scunthorpe, Sheff Utd, and seen the chaos that causes. Now take away the allocation and its a recipe for disaster.

I'm glad you're not our Safety Officer!

PS, explain the overcrowding at Hillsborough for me.

That to me is a stewarding issue

[silent majority]

Dave, as I said, I'm glad you're not our Safety Officer.

[IDM]

Can anyone say what the actual capacity should be, allowing for the SS spare space for unreserved seating, the big screen, segregation and the NW block?

I would estimate we would be "full" below 14000?

[Filo]

Dave, as I said, I'm glad you're not our Safety Officer.

I'm not looking to be argumentative, just trying to understand the reasoning, so far your explanation doesn't convince me

[Copps is Magic]

IDM has actually provided the best explanation with that picture. An example of that is going to the concourse at half time and having to come back to a different seat in the 2nd because its been taken. Which has happened to me.

[Superspy]

I can see where Filo is coming from in the sense that you have the same amount of people taking up the same amount of space (the whole stand). If people all start to congregate in an area, reducing the capacity won't stop the congregation, but I also see the merit in having overflow capacity in case there are any issues.

[Superspy]

Any tickets left?

Yes, South East Corner has just been released on the online ticket site. Few left in the East and West. It looks like when they said the South was sold out they weren't including the corners.

That would explain why they were talking about a sell out and a 12k crowd in the same sentence. The numbers didn't add up, even when factoring in the reduced SS capacity and the segregation seats.

[silent majority]

It would be chaos with a capital 'C'. Asking Stewards to find seats for 20 or 30 people who turn up late when its allocated seating is bad enough, multiply that problem several times and it would be a nightmare. How many parents would be stood with their kids looking for 2 or 3 seats together that don't exist? Groups of mates would all want to be together too. Without an overflow area, or seats allocated for that purpose, then you will have overcrowded areas, and that leads to injuries when crowds surge or jump around. It may work in the cinema, or at the theater, but not in a sports stadium.

Ive seen it so often over the years following England around, overcrowding always takes place and usually in areas such as gangways and viewing platforms. That's with allocated seating too! I remember Slovakia 2003/4 when England took their full allocation for a stadium that quite clearly couldn't cope, when a minor disturbance took place all hell broke loose and people just tumbled over the top of each other.  My younger brother managed to save a young lad who'd lost touch with his dad in the chaos that followed. He had to hold him up above the crowds so that he wasn't trampled underfoot. That was a close call, only about 6 or 7 people were hospitalised that day.

I realise you're not being argumentative, but you are ignoring all the good practice that we have in modern football stadiums that has followed the lessons learnt at previous disasters.

[philsky]

lets say i have a 'mate' that has, hypothetically, a ticket in the west stand, whats to stop him 'accidentally' drifting into the black bank ?

[IDM]

lets say i have a 'mate' that has, hypothetically, a ticket in the west stand, whats to stop him 'accidentally' drifting into the black bank ?

The segregation netting in the SW corner.

[philsky]

ah.

didn't used to be there.

pole vault ?

[Filo]

It would be chaos with a capital 'C'. Asking Stewards to find seats for 20 or 30 people who turn up late when its allocated seating is bad enough, multiply that problem several times and it would be a nightmare. How many parents would be stood with their kids looking for 2 or 3 seats together that don't exist? Groups of mates would all want to be together too. Without an overflow area, or seats allocated for that purpose, then you will have overcrowded areas, and that leads to injuries when crowds surge or jump around. It may work in the cinema, or at the theater, but not in a sports stadium.

Ive seen it so often over the years following England around, overcrowding always takes place and usually in areas such as gangways and viewing platforms. That's with allocated seating too! I remember Slovakia 2003/4 when England took their full allocation for a stadium that quite clearly couldn't cope, when a minor disturbance took place all hell broke loose and people just tumbled over the top of each other.  My younger brother managed to save a young lad who'd lost touch with his dad in the chaos that followed. He had to hold him up above the crowds so that he wasn't trampled underfoot. That was a close call, only about 6 or 7 people were hospitalised that day.

I realise you're not being argumentative, but you are ignoring all the good practice that we have in modern football stadiums that has followed the lessons learnt at previous disasters.

I'm not ignoring the good practice, I'm asking the reasoning behind the different capacity between reserved and unreserved in the same space with the same amount of seats

[i_ateallthepies]

Wasn't the overcrowding at Hillsborough due to opening the gates and letting uncontrolled numbers into the Leppings Lane?  That isn't what Filo is talking about though is it...  And his logic is perfectly reasonable, you know how many people are allowed into that part of the ground, there is space for all of them.  If a portion of them choose to sardine-pack themselves into less space than they have purchased then that frees up the space needed as overflow.

So, contrary to what has been said about standing potentially increasing the capacity, the truth is it is being given as the cause of having to reduce capacity.  Nice!

[Copps is Magic]

That moment when the Black Bank is such a success they're pole vaulting it in there.