Is there anyone

[selby]

  Who runs, coaches, or helps to run a junior football club of any age group who posts or reads this forum?

[Spud]

I did, for 8 years until my lads grew up. I know of one other on here too.

[idler]

Nudga?

[Tiddysdad]

I took a team of lads through the age groups from year 6 at junior school to play a season in adults league. 6 lads stayed we me all the way. 11 years.
Why are you asking?

[ian1980]

Yes, me

[selby]

  There is loads of talent in the local leagues that go unnoticed until it is too late, the emergence of Greaves,Amos, Horton to first team games and Ravenhill on the verges  is a pointer that the club can promote and gain from players being brought through our own youth system.
  And we the supporters love it when one or two make their way into the first team.
   When they get to the academy the bar is set high, lads are going to be tested, and some will find it difficult, but they will enjoy it, they will get top top coaching and will benefit from any time spent at that level of football and training.
   The club needs help with limited numbers of scouts being able to get to more than a small number of games and feel that we are missing out on so much talent in the area.
   If your lad plays, you are are a casual supporter of who just goes and watches half an hour while walking the dog, if you are a coach, or just happen to know of someone, you can help, if you see someone on your team or the opposition send me a PM or get in touch directly with the club we will endeavour to follow any leads up and whatever age group there is a pathway through.
   All volunteers will be more than welcome.

[selby]

  Anyone who referees are  in an ideal position to see good local talent please if interested send me a PM. you can help the club.

[donnievic]

There are plenty of young lads that get looked at at donny from 8 years old,thing is at that age a lot just want to play with mates,if you do get signed on to a academy that’s all you can play for.they even have development squads where they get training and odd games set up against other teams.

[Spud]

Hiya Selby.
For some reason I can't seem to open any PM's atm, I'll have to try when I boot the laptop up next.

With reference to youth football & clubs I must admit I am very sceptical, unfortunately.
As a Rovers fan of course I agree, I want to see local lads making the first team, it's brilliant seeing Louis, Branden etc making the breakthrough. However, for every Branden there's probably hundreds of lads that get bulled up from a young age, like you say the bar is set high, but a lot clearly are there to make the numbers up when in reality they've little chance of making it.
I found it hard to get excited about clubs being interested in any of my lads, lots just give up playing with their mates for years then inevitably get released.
The tiers below academy level are the worst, at least with the academy lads they know where they are week in week out, the shadow squad lads literally got asked to play the night before a game which just messed everyone about & was a nightmare tbh.
Rovers aren't the worst club out there at junior level but they were far from the best either.
My lad trained with one of the local clubs for a bit, he asked me not to take him after a while, he was happier playing with his mates. He's a good player but was never gonna be a pro tbh so I'm glad he made the right call.

Apologies if I'm not the right person to ask lol.

[The Beast]

Nudga?

Nudga does, team I run is playing them in a couple of weeks

[tommy toes]

I refereed in the boys Sunday League for about 10 years.
The only lad I saw in all that time who made it was Craig Nelthorpe.

[ravenrover]

The chap who did the annoucing for a coupke of seasons runs a school team I think, A1475 or something like that

[selby]

   It would be a great advantage to the club if we could develop a network in the local Doncaster age group youth leagues where information on good players out there in the local villages and towns through the coaches and people watching those games were passed on to the club so it could follow the information up.
  Please if anyone who has not already PM'd me but is in a position to help or knows someone who is and might be willing to do so PM me and I will get back to you.
  The lads pushing through into contention in our first team, and also lower down at u18's and the younger age group sides show what can be achieved with good coaching a lot of hard work and yes a bit of good luck along the way.
   You can help, and the club needs help to be as good as we can be. Thanks to all those who have already got in touch.

[Al4475]

Raven is right guys,

I have run several very successful school teams from Kingfisher, Norton Juniors and Kirk Sandall in Donny, plus Bramley Grange in Rotherham and Thomas Russell Junior School in Staffordshire. I have also been involved on the management/coaching side of several blokes teams in Derby and Donny and did a bit of work early in my teaching career for Burton Albion and Stoke City.

I haven't read the whole thread but I guess folk are perhaps asking why we don't see many local lads make it to the first team.

I broached this with Liam Scully several years ago as one of my Kirk Sandall teams managed to beat every level of the Rovers Academy teams at U11 age in our build up to North of England Finals.

Basically then (tho I can't particularly comment about now as I kinda lost interest after Liam left) the best lads in the Rovers academy invariably went to higher class academies in the local area, leaving Rovers to pick kids up from lower grade academies around us- it was asked of me how come a local coach in a local school could beat the best we had at our local pro club, to which there was no obvious answer.

However, .at that time the scouting network wasn't great in schools - From that particular squad of 9 of mine, 3 were affiliated with clubs (only 1 at Rovers) - 7 ended up on the Rovers books after their work and mine with the club and the lads - 0 of which stayed for long before going elsewhere or losing interest.

The last one standing was my keeper who, I believe, was released last year and signed for Notts County.

I don't know the definitive answer why we don't see local lads make it anymore - fact of the matter is that in the last 23 years of teaching and successful school team coaching, I have only ever had 1 lad make a football league appearance!

It's a bloody tough challenge - probably much harder than many of us envisage.

The keeper from that particular team mentioned earlier was the only one in Donny I have dealt with who I felt may make it as a league player.

I have had a few play for the likes of Armthorpe, Hemsworth, Askern, Rosso and Thorne and a few from Staffordshire made appearances at the same kind of level out there.

It takes a helluva commitment bland lifestyle to get remotely close nowadays.

[Al4475]

I've just checked- the keeper is at Notts County in their u-18s.

[Al4475]

Selby I would love to help pool together the best of the local primary school players, but as spud says, the vast majority are only there take the numbers up and have no chance of making it.

I don't know if this is still the case either but there were tiers in tha academy: skills, development, junior academy and academy (i think there was another tier at least but the name(s) escape(s) me).

Basically parents paid for the privilege of the kids being 'invited' to trial, to have the benefit of the coaches and the personalised gear on a week-by-week basis in all but the 'academy' tier. The 'academy' lads signed on officially and were only then allowed to play for he school and rovers meaning many lost their interest through being taken away from their grass roots teams with their mates.

They were also reported on annually by schools re behaviour, progress and academic attainment to the Rovers so many lost interest through being checked up on too.

I don't know if that is all still the case as I haven't had an 'academy' tier player since lockdown began last year.

With all that playing on kids' heads from as young as 5 and 6 - by the time they get to 16, it-s no wonder they have disappeared off from the sport and lost all interest in it - bar the odd one or two.

[Nudga]

Two of my players are in the development squads for their age group.
Money making racket really selling the dream.

[selby]

  Nobody is trying to say it is easy, we are not even saying that we are the best club in the system at bringing players through to the first team, but at the moment we are not the worst, with Horton, Amos, and Greaves playing recently in the first team, Ravenhill currently away with the N Ireland u21s at 18 yrs old, and Bojang just returned from playing in the Africa u20s nations competition while stil an u18s player.
  The aim is to  be as good as we can be, and we hope because of lack of numbers that we can get a little help gleaning information from guys like yourself that are at the coal face of youth football in the Doncaster area to help us identify players with the ability to play at a higher level.
  I can only ask for help, I can only go on what the club are trying to achieve, the hard work that has gone into getting to be where we are, and the effort trying to get even better and more players through the system. With the bar set so high lots will fail to get through, but should if they have applied themselves be better players for the experience and when older play at a higher level than they otherwise would have done.
  I would like to think that some of you would be willing to help it would be much appreciated.

[selby]

  Nudga, the fee is to pay for the facilities hire and the cost of the professional coaching the boys receive, and the costs are more than comparable with private coaching schools that do it for profit, and contracted players in the older age groups pay nothing,
  Its a massive commitment from the parents admittedly, accepted not many actually get through, but all should be capable of playing at a very good level of football, and there is always the late developer coming through.
  The fact that some drop out altogether in lots of cases is often made out to be the fault of the clubs when it is far from the truth and is the fault of a whole host of other reasons, the expectancy of others on the boys themselves being a massive problem.

[Al4475]

Agree about the fee being comparable Selby.

Agree with the level of commitment requires from the parents - can also be very detrimental too tho and the actions of pushy parents who see their kid as an unlikely ticket to cash can damage kids mental aptitude and love for the game.

Completely agree with the facts that loads drop out for other reasons too.

Good thread this guys and should, despite the inevitable queries it brings regarding the academy etc, be regarded as a celebration that at the mo we actually have a few local lads who might just give it a proper go at our club not elsewhere.

[selby]

  We must be doing something right  in an under17's game with lots of current u16s playing we  were good enough to beat Hull City u17s 3-1 last night with a great display of attacking football, Hull City are a catergory 2 side.
  Lots of the lads from within the Doncaster area or within easy traveling distance.
  We make no apologies for admitting we are looking for the best of the bunch, and lots of lads will fail to be in that small number, but we also aim to make every player as good as they can possibly be while spending time with us, enjoy the game and the experience while with us, and leave capable of playing at a higher standard and level of club than if they had not had a chance at Doncaster Rovers.
   Again, Please if you know a young player, if you watch boys age group football, or even help to manage or run a team, if you contact the club or PM me it will be followed up.

[Al4475]

It's good at the moment Selby for sure - I will keep my eyes peeled as ever when we start back at it properly in schools and let you know of any that catch my eye.

[selby]

  Thanks a lot A14475 it is good at the moment , but we need to be better and not just on the playing field but at communication with parents and the lads themselves so they are happy and aware of their situation and feel part of the club.
  A big ask as much more  on the clubs side so that false hopes are not raised to a level that puts them off playing the game if not attained, and they still enjoy and want to play if they don't make the cut, And in my opinion the freedom to play with their mates  in local leagues when fixtures don't clash, my thoughts are that if they do so and their mates see an improvement while they train with us it would serve as an incentive for them to do so.
  Whether that is allowed by the FA I  don't know, but it rightly seems a bone of contention with local clubs management so I will ask the question.

[Lesonthewest]

I refereed in the boys Sunday League for about 10 years.
The only lad I saw in all that time who made it was Craig Nelthorpe.

I reffed around the same time for a few seasons & Nelthorpe was head & shoulders above anyone

[5 on Tour]

I coach at Under 8’s and the issue is the amount of rules we receive from academies regarding players. It puts them off.

2 of my 3 boys have been in the academy at Rovers and I’ve removed them due to it lacking fun and excitement for them and being more like an army boot camp.

With the team I coach we’ve had 2 of the parents Dad’s (other than my youngest) approached by Sheffield United and told that if they want to be in the academy that they can’t play for local teams and with their mates. Asking a 7/8 year old to abandon his mates and fun to spend hours in the car going to training is putting them all off.

Additionally the “development fees” that pro clubs pay the lower league sides is a disgrace. If the junior side(of an NCEL club) develops the next Messi and hand them off to a pro club they get the equivalent fee of an average raffle prize. Yet if that same League 1/2 club develop them further they demand millions at tribunal. No incentive at all for amateur/semi pro clubs to get involved with academies.

[Adwick Rover]

I speak from personal experience of having 2 sons both playing at the same time. One had stand out talent at a very early age, was spotted in a tournament and went all the way to sign professional terms after 12 years in the Academy set up. The other son was a very good player too but just wanted to play for fun with his mates from school. I think the difference is all about attitude and application. One wanted it so badly and the other just didn't. Ability is one thing but wanting to succeed as a professional in the game is something else.

At local level there are good players but when they are asked to make the step up, they just can't cope with 4 nights a week training (usually after school and on freezing cold, wet nights) and the expected discipline and demanding coaching that is required to progress. A lot of players appeared in the Academy set up year on year and disappeared just as quickly.

Mind you, the one that signed professionally after all the years of dedication and determination just wasn't given a chance to impress with a change of Manager at the club that had a different view on home grown talent. That is a whole different story...

[Nudga]

I coach at Under 8’s and the issue is the amount of rules we receive from academies regarding players. It puts them off.

2 of my 3 boys have been in the academy at Rovers and I’ve removed them due to it lacking fun and excitement for them and being more like an army boot camp.

With the team I coach we’ve had 2 of the parents Dad’s (other than my youngest) approached by Sheffield United and told that if they want to be in the academy that they can’t play for local teams and with their mates. Asking a 7/8 year old to abandon his mates and fun to spend hours in the car going to training is putting them all off.

Additionally the “development fees” that pro clubs pay the lower league sides is a disgrace. If the junior side(of an NCEL club) develops the next Messi and hand them off to a pro club they get the equivalent fee of an average raffle prize. Yet if that same League 1/2 club develop them further they demand millions at tribunal. No incentive at all for amateur/semi pro clubs to get involved with academies.

My son was with Rovers from u7s to U9s. I pulled him out as one coach was spending a good 50 minutes out of 90 talking.
The kids were freezing, bored 6some upset at the bollickings dished out because they couldn't understand the hundreds of cones splatted everywhere.
I couldn't even work out what he was asking of them.
Plus, they only wanted the big, faster kids.
My lad was quite small but was comfortable with both feet and had decent control but it was obvious they didn't want him as he couldn't bulldoze his way through the pitch.
There was obvious favouritism, for instance, my lad set up a goal against arsenal's northern academy, he threaded aball in between two defenders into the strikers path. Star striker put it away and got load applause.
Not even a glance toward my lad from the coaches.

He scored six against Mansfield. Nothing.

Scored against Sheffield Wednesday and set up two. Nothing.

But they keot dangling the carrot and asking for more money. It was obvious he was a squad filler.

Wouldn't have been a problem if they'd said something along the lines of "at the moment he's not at the level we're looking for so it best he concentrates on his grassroots team"

[RobTheRover]

If grassroots football was properly funded with better facilities and resources rather than run solely by parents and volunteers so that local kids can play and get the benefit of a team dynamic, cameraderie, etc then academies could leave them to develop with a light touch, enjoy their football with their friends, and pick them up for more focused coaching at a more developed age.  Academies shouldn't be doing anything with players at 7 or 8 years old in my experience. It's a surefire way to damage their love of the game. There should be a minimum age of say 13 before they can be approached.

Ive coached kids too, and the best player at 7 can be passed by others by the time they are 13 by lads who 5 years earlier couldn't even kick a ball 10 yards.  Teach them to love the game first.

[Nudga]

If grassroots football was properly funded with better facilities and resources rather than run solely by parents and volunteers so that local kids can play and get the benefit of a team dynamic, cameraderie, etc then academies could leave them to develop with a light touch, enjoy their football with their friends, and pick them up for more focused coaching at a more developed age.  Academies shouldn't be doing anything with players at 7 or 8 years old in my experience. It's a surefire way to damage their love of the game. There should be a minimum age of say 13 before they can be approached.

Ive coached kids too, and the best player at 7 can be passed by others by the time they are 13 by lads who 5 years earlier couldn't even kick a ball 10 yards.  Teach them to love the game first.

Agree with this Rob 100%

[Spud]

If grassroots football was properly funded with better facilities and resources rather than run solely by parents and volunteers so that local kids can play and get the benefit of a team dynamic, cameraderie, etc then academies could leave them to develop with a light touch, enjoy their football with their friends, and pick them up for more focused coaching at a more developed age.  Academies shouldn't be doing anything with players at 7 or 8 years old in my experience. It's a surefire way to damage their love of the game. There should be a minimum age of say 13 before they can be approached.

Ive coached kids too, and the best player at 7 can be passed by others by the time they are 13 by lads who 5 years earlier couldn't even kick a ball 10 yards.  Teach them to love the game first.

Well put Rob, I started typing something along these lines yesterday before a phone call distracted me.
Anyone who's coaches kids will know it's far from being solely about football, you're pretty much another parent to them & a part of their upbringing, there's no motive to encourage them off to clubs in the present state until they're teenagers tbh. Clubs should be supporting grass roots by putting training sessions on etc, that way they'd know what talent was out there for themselves.
Like Rob says, the best players at 7 or 8 might not be the best even at 10 years old, never mind 15 or 16, kids develop at different ages.