Is the Labour party antisemitic?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

Consider the response the next time Israel is accused of a human rights violation after any change.

If Labour supporters objected, they would be accused of anti semitic behaviour in castigating Israel.
The International code supports this interpretation by default.

I’ve no idea where you’ve got that interpretation from, but here’s the verbatim quote from the IHRA website.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

...criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

The really contentious issue is that the Labour leadership refuses to acknowledge this definition of anti-Semitism.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

This is not about leaving space for realistic and fair criticism of Israel. It’s about a debate on ideological purity that has obsessed many in left wing politics for decades.

By the way, I’ve nearly got a line on my Blair/WMD bingo card.

[BillyStubbsTears]

But anyway. While we’re talking about anti-Semitism...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/trump-russia-jewish-farage-brexit-698486%3famp=1

[albie]

BST

The media scrum would always use any occasion to focus upon a key meme.
Dog whistle politics, thats their game.

The right to self determination clause is fundamental because it runs in opposition to say, a Palestinian right to self determination. By what means are actions to be measured where they advantage one claim to the disadvantage of another?

Interesting perspective here, from a Jewish commentator;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/labour-code-of-conduct-not-antisemitic

The real question the media should look at is the anti Muslim bias within the Conservative Party.
Baroness Warsi has been getting more Bolshi by the day on this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

No. The right to self determination for Israel does not preclude the same right for Palestine. We were very close to a workable two-state solution in the 1990s when relatively moderate people were in charge. The problem since then has been that the extremists who don’t want compromise have taken over on both sides.

And you’re right. The emphasis SHOULD be on the Tories. But it won’t be so long as Labour continues to stick out it’s chin and shout “Free Punch!”

[BillyStubbsTears]

And yes. You WILL find some Jewish people who will be against the IHRA definition. There’s a debate going on. My point is that it is utterly counterproductive for Labour to allow themselves to be defined by that debate.

There’s a widely accepted international definition of Anti-Semitism. Some people don’t agree with it but most do. Just accept it. Even if you disagree with 5% of it.

I’m speaking here as someone who used to be active in relatively far left politics. The problem is that you get obsessives for whom the word “pragmatism” is the worst insult you can hurl. It’s all about being pure to an ideological line. This whole issue reeks of that attitude.

[Ldr]

The real question the media should look at is the anti Muslim bias within the Conservative Party.
Baroness Warsi has been getting more Bolshi by the day on this.

In otherwords what Labour do is fine because the Tories do something else, talk about an unwillingness to face the issue, Symptomatic of politics and society in general, deflection and denial

[The Red Baron]

And yes. You WILL find some Jewish people who will be against the IHRA definition. There’s a debate going on. My point is that it is utterly counterproductive for Labour to allow themselves to be defined by that debate.

There’s a widely accepted international definition of Anti-Semitism. Some people don’t agree with it but most do. Just accept it. Even if you disagree with 5% of it.

I’m speaking here as someone who used to be active in relatively far left politics. The problem is that you get obsessives for whom the word “pragmatism” is the worst insult you can hurl. It’s all about being pure to an ideological line. This whole issue reeks of that attitude.

I'm no Corbyn fan but I think a lot of the outrage is bogus. At the same time, it isn't clever, wherever you stand on the political spectrum, to invoke Nazism and The Holocaust in contemporary political discourse. Had Labour adopted the definition they could have put this to bed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Precisely the point TRB. The problem is that there are many on The Left for whom ideological debates are a way of life. And Corbyn has been one of those all his political life. So the idea of “putting this to bed and getting on with the real agenda” doesn’t get much air time. Because if you disagree with the ideologically correct line, you’re immediately no longer one of us.

[The Red Baron]

Precisely the point TRB. The problem is that there are many on The Left for whom ideological debates are a way of life. And Corbyn has been one of those all his political life. So the idea of “putting this to bed and getting on with the real agenda” doesn’t get much air time. Because if you disagree with the ideologically correct line, you’re immediately no longer one of us.

I saw this about Corbyn. I thought it summed things up quite neatly.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MichaelDugher/status/1024636758582075392?p=v

Of course, if you're a Corbyn supporter you will disagree completely.

[selby]

  The labour party attracts by definition the less well off members of society. It has tried with some success  to attract the working class Muslim population in the inner cities throughout the country.
  By their very nature, whether you accept it or not that population is anti semitic, whether it upsets you or not, it is a fact, and certain factions within the Labour party will pander to their view. It may not be their official stance, because to admit it as fact would do them no good, and would be pounced on by the media.
  Whether  you accept it or not the factions within the party will keep pushing their view in the background, but if they come to the fore it will cost the party votes, pandering to them.
  So yes, not officially, but elements of the party most definitely.

[wilts rover]

I have been to Auschwitz. I have also been to Yad Vashem. They are both very evocative and emotional places and essential visiting if you are ever in the area.

So it is not only for that reason that I still can't get the idea straight in my head as to why asking a survivor from Auschwitz to talk of his experiences in the camp and what lessons can be learnt from that today is anti-semitic. The wrong type of Jew? Weird.

I have given my thoughts earlier on in this thread. So I now recommend this article by Mark Steel that concludes:

We should all agree that
a) there is antisemitism on the left, and that hasn’t been conclusively dealt with;
b) Opponents of Corbyn have cynically exaggerated this for their own purpose;
and c) Both things can be true at once, because as extraordinary as it seems, it’s possible for two different sets of people to both be talking shite.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitism-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-jewish-holocaust-survivor-abuse-a8474846.html

[bpoolrover]

In a formal statement this morning Corbyn said he is not anti Semitic and anyone who thinks otherwise can keep there big nose out of it!

[hoolahoop]

In a formal statement this morning Corbyn said he is not anti Semitic and anyone who thinks otherwise can keep there big nose out of it!

Of course you think that is funny. Here we have the Tories, the MSM and of course the BBC playing the biggest game of whataboutery to cover up the mess that the Tory Party has presided over  in decades.

Well what do the Labour Party do - well sweet fa , they allow this to persistently hit the headlines instead of drawing a line under it! Now call me stupid but is the way for an Opposition Party to seek power ? Actually BE an Opposition Party instead of coming out with mealy - mouthed words .....fecking Oppose properly. What do you actually stand for anymore because from where I'm standing ; it's not to help the weak, the poor and the working class.

[bpoolrover]

I don’t get so wound up over labour or the tories I will just keep plodding along and what will be will be

[hoolahoop]

I don’t get so wound up over labour or the tories I will just keep plodding along and what will be will be

Nice if you can switch off like that, I think sometimes that's the easy way out - far too easy , my family have far too much riding on this bpool . In less than 3 weeks time my daughter starts studying in Denmark. No deal means a lot to us and for that matter most everyone else in this country - we have alot riding on this .

[bpoolrover]

I no mate but getting wound up won’t change anything, the tories can’t call a second referendum or they will be voted straight out of power, labour I’m not sure want to be in power until brexit as happened or they will be in the same position the tories are, yes there is a lot riding on it but my opinion is the end result won’t be anywhere near as bad as you think, so enjoy life mate until it actually happens

[i_ateallthepies]

I no mate but getting wound up won’t change anything, the tories can’t call a second referendum or they will be voted straight out of power, labour I’m not sure want to be in power until brexit as happened or they will be in the same position the tories are, yes there is a lot riding on it but my opinion is the end result won’t be anywhere near as bad as you think, so enjoy life mate until it actually happens

And your opinion that the end result won't be anywhere near as bad as he thinks is based on what, exactly?

[bpoolrover]

1 a opinion 2 I can’t be bothered putting link after link up anymore as they will be off the leave side so it’s pointless, my point was he will worry himself into a early grave when he should be enjoying life

[donnyproletarian]

I am a LP member and have never met a antisemitic individual .I have no doubt that following the massive influx of members over the last couple of years you could find the odd antisemitic dude who has fallen for some conspiracy theory .You could also find flat earthers's if you look hard enough .The reality is this is the basis of a third attempted coup by the billionaire owned  MSM and the blairite relics who want to preserve there power base.JC has been accused of being an IRA sympathiser ,check spy ,Putins stooge and now antisematic .Just shows how desperate the stars quo are to discredit him.Pick on the oldest conflict in the world just when its escalating due to Trumps interference and blame it on JC.Then put pressure on adopting this controversial definition of antisemitism which be the way is aimed to stifle any criticism of right wing israeli government attrocities.A very dangerous precedent for free speech.Meanwhile ignore brexit and the crisis in government .Cant believe how manipulated people are to swallow this crap judging by some of the comments on this subject.

[Sprotyrover]

I am a LP member and have never met a antisemitic individual .I have no doubt that following the massive influx of members over the last couple of years you could find the odd antisemitic dude who has fallen for some conspiracy theory .You could also find flat earthers's if you look hard enough .The reality is this is the basis of a third attempted coup by the billionaire owned  MSM and the blairite relics who want to preserve there power base.JC has been accused of being an IRA sympathiser ,check spy ,Putins stooge and now antisematic .Just shows how desperate the stars quo are to discredit him.Pick on the oldest conflict in the world just when its escalating due to Trumps interference and blame it on JC.Then put pressure on adopting this controversial definition of antisemitism which be the way is aimed to stifle any criticism of right wing israeli government attrocities.A very dangerous precedent for free speech.Meanwhile ignore brexit and the crisis in government .Cant believe how manipulated people are to swallow this crap judging by some of the comments on this subject.

The wreath laying stunt has shown him up for what he is an anti Semitic, IRA Terrorist sympathiser. Wtf is he doing in charge of the Labour Party. Other than ensuring we have to endure another 5 years of Tory hell!

[BillyStubbsTears]

I’m pretty sure that Corbyn isn’t anti-Semitic. I do think he’s genuine in his claim that he’s against all prejudice.

The problem is what I’ve pointed out earlier in this thread. It’s the one-dimensional approach that he and his core team has to foreign policy.

It’s simple. It’s all about who is seen as being powerful and who isn’t.

The less powerful, in Corbyn’s world, cannot be criticised for hitting out at the more powerful.

Israel is seen as being more powerful than the Palestinians. Therefore what Israel does is wrong, but what the Palestinians do (like murdering innocent Israeli athletes) is a justified act of resistance. And the heroes who carry out those attacks should be lauded.

That’s his approach. Consistent right down the line for decades. When he was a backbencher...

Except now of course, he has to win over an electorate. And the electorate don’t see it the same way. So now when he’s faced with his lifelong beliefs and actions, it suddenly becomes “Well, I was THERE (at the laying of a wreath to commemorate the Palestinians who carried out the Munich killings) but I didn’t participate in laying the wreath.”

See. He KNOWS that he’s unelectable if he tries to argue what he truly believes - that the Palestinian killers WERE heroes. So he has to pretend that he doesn’t really think that.

This is the new politics that Corbyn promised us.  It’s a right f**king mess. And it’s in danger of giving a free pass to the most f**king useless Govt for more than a century.

[Sprotyrover]

Has he ever laid a Wreath at the cenotaph or the Menin Gate? If he has I haven't got a problem with him..............!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Of course he has. Every Remembrance Sunday since he became leader.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Has he ever laid a Wreath at the cenotaph or the Menin Gate? If he has I haven't got a problem with him..............!

Of course he has why wouldn't he?  What he did in this case was a poor choice, though one he probably didn't think mattered too much as he'd never go on to be near power.

Granted the media with agendas are playing it up and it doesn't make much difference to a lot of Labour policy, but it builds that narrative around him as making strange choices.  What I don't like about him on this is not his choices but his backtracking - he either believes in what he did or he doesn't?  The whole "I was there but I wasn't involved thing" is a pretty poor response.  He's supposed to be liked because of his honesty.

It will make no difference to his fanatics though.  He could probably do just about anything in their eyes.

[The Red Baron]

I would argue that criticizing the policies of the State of Israel is not anti-Semitic. I would also argue that criticizing the tenets and practices of Islam is not racist. However try convincing people on either side of the argument of that!

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Agreed on all three points.

As I posted up the page, the IHRA statement says "...criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

So people who are saying that the reason Labour don't want to sign up to the IHRA definition of anti-semitism is because it will stop them making valid criticisms of Israel's policies are either misguided or trying to misguide others.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ouch.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rickburin/status/1029001210462982144

[The Red Baron]

Ouch.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rickburin/status/1029001210462982144

The whole business with the wreath reminds of that politician (can't remember who) who admitted to smoking pot when he was a student but claimed he didn't inhale.

[Sprotyrover]

He is a twit, consistently has made bad choices and has never thought of their long term consequences.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

It was Bill Clinton.