London

[Glyn_Wigley]

Next you'll be suggesting muslims can't be gay TC, hmmm

No, I won't Syd. I'm pretty relaxed about people's sexuality to be quite honest.

No Syd, it's the Quran and certain Muslim countries who deem it a sin punishable by death.

If you're going to apply that logic consistently, I assume you'd think it lunacy for Christian adulterers to promote a Bible that says they should be executed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

We didn't get very far into the "Define 'our' culture" issue, did we?

[ncRover]

We didn't get very far into the "Define 'our' culture" issue, did we?

It is quite hard to define the prevailing culture because it’s all we know, but it is there. Every country has one.

We like to think of ourselves as polite and courteous with respect for things like queuing and manners for example. I’d say we tend to understate things so as not to look a “show off” and use self-deprecation a lot in humour so as to not seem to be lacking humility.

I guess you could say general western values are democracy, rule of law, individual liberty and tolerance. I’d say we are one of the most tolerant societies in the world. There aren’t many others with such population diversity.

It would be easier to ask the original poster and those supporting his argument how exactly immigrants *don’t* integrate to our culture or embody such values and sensibilities. I think my previous post helps to show that people generally do. I’m also not sure why “white British” was brought up.

[Herbert Anchovy]

We didn't get very far into the "Define 'our' culture" issue, did we?

It is quite hard to define the prevailing culture because it’s all we know, but it is there. Every country has one.

We like to think of ourselves as polite and courteous with respect for things like queuing and manners for example. I’d say we tend to understate things so as not to look a “show off” and use self-deprecation a lot in humour so as to not seem to be lacking humility.

I guess you could say general western values are democracy, rule of law, individual liberty and tolerance. I’d say we are one of the most tolerant societies in the world. There aren’t many others with such population diversity.

It would be easier to ask the original poster and those supporting his argument how exactly immigrants *don’t* integrate to our culture or embody such values and sensibilities. I think my previous post helps to show that people generally do. I’m also not sure why “white British” was brought up.

When asked why London wasn't English anymore, a poster replied

 "Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions."

I think thats why White British came up in the debate.

[Jonathan]

So despite 4 pages of ‘ahem’ robust debate, I’m still no clearer why London isn’t an English city anymore nor am I clear what parts of English culture people are unable to adhere to in London.

Maybe some folks on here feel they can’t express their opinions clearly and honestly? Maybe they’re secretly embarrassed by them?

People who are of a different culture, religion or colour to you are not the cause of your problems. They have no power or control whatsoever over you. If you are unhappy with your lot then I’d recommend looking into Parliament for the source of your unhappiness. Or the mirror.

London is a great city. Go and visit it sometime and count how many Union Jacks you see compared to in Donny. You’ll be pleasantly surprised.

Agreed HA, well said.
 
I'm only an occasional visitor to London nowadays, and always as a 'tourist'. I love going there, it has so much to offer and so much to see and do. I enjoy the multicultural element of London and what that has brought to the city.

I'm enjoying reading the contributions to this debate (well, most of them) so I guess I should be grateful to the OP for starting the thread, and equally grateful to him for not joining in!

I'm not sure how relevant this is, and it's nothing to do specifically with London, but Mrs Pancho told me something I found interesting the other day.
She works in a Nursery, looking after children aged between 2 and 4 years.

The Nursery is obliged by Ofsted to encourage the children to respect and adopt what Ofsted refer to as 'British values'.
These are defined as:

* Democracy
* The Rule of Law
* Individual Liberty
* Mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs

Ofsted judge the Nursery on how well it is achieving this when they carry out audits.

I'm not sure how easy it is to instil these values into a 2-year-old!
In practice, my wife tends to concentrate on what I would call the 'traditional' values of good manners. sharing, not bullying, waiting your turn, being polite and kind to others etc.
 
But I find it interesting that Ofsted have defined these values, the fact that they specifically call them 'British' values, and that they will judge the Nursery on how successfully they are being promoted to the children. Indeed, Ofsted will audit what action the Nursery will take if anyone is acting to undermine these values.

Interesting. I share your scepticism as to how those can be instilled and measured in 2 year olds. That said, the values are an interesting choice in so far as their representation of supposed ‘Britishness.’

The first three are arguably quite closely aligned with the stoicism that your EDL types would like to think they uphold and fight for. We must bring our children up to show respect etc. etc. And I’m definitely doing it a disservice by limiting it to cynicism around the EDL, in truth I’m sure we would all like future generations to exude these values.

The last one (“mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs”) is where things become strangely more divisive even though most people would like to be considered as tolerant. Few would be able to construct a meaningful argument as to why it’s not important to instil that across all generations. However it’s the action of respect and tolerance that seems to confuse some and this is the ground on which the culture wars are fought. There’s a very fine line between promoting tolerance vs the extent to which this will get the Talk TV / GB News mob accusing nurseries of being ‘woke.’ And there’s a concept that’s every bit as hard to define as British culture.

[tommy toes]

That's good to hear Pancho.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I remember being really proud of that famous British respect for different faiths and beliefs when we used to get called Fenian bas**rds by the Proddy kids on the way to school.

[Sprotyrover]

I remember being really proud of that famous British respect for different faiths and beliefs when we used to get called Fenian bas**rds by the Proddy kids on the way to school.

I’m surprised they even knew what a Fenian was!
You would have been in the majority in Denaby back then!

[ncRover]

I do think that we as a country are one of the most tolerant and diverse countries in the world.

We shouldn’t let the minority stir up division and give us a cynical sneering attitude to all things “British”. That doesn’t help anyone either and losing touch with our values would lead to social denigration.

Sorry HA I missed your post l, mine was quite similar by accident I’ve only joined in on about page 4 so I’m a bit behind!

[Glyn_Wigley]

I blame the Huguenots!

[Not Now Kato]

I blame the Huguenots!

Is that Latin for Daily Mail?

[i_ateallthepies]

So despite 4 pages of ‘ahem’ robust debate, I’m still no clearer why London isn’t an English city anymore nor am I clear what parts of English culture people are unable to adhere to in London.

Maybe some folks on here feel they can’t express their opinions clearly and honestly? Maybe they’re secretly embarrassed by them?

People who are of a different culture, religion or colour to you are not the cause of your problems. They have no power or control whatsoever over you. If you are unhappy with your lot then I’d recommend looking into Parliament for the source of your unhappiness. Or the mirror.

London is a great city. Go and visit it sometime and count how many Union Jacks you see compared to in Donny. You’ll be pleasantly surprised.

Agreed HA, well said.
 
I'm only an occasional visitor to London nowadays, and always as a 'tourist'. I love going there, it has so much to offer and so much to see and do. I enjoy the multicultural element of London and what that has brought to the city.

I'm enjoying reading the contributions to this debate (well, most of them) so I guess I should be grateful to the OP for starting the thread, and equally grateful to him for not joining in!

I'm not sure how relevant this is, and it's nothing to do specifically with London, but Mrs Pancho told me something I found interesting the other day.
She works in a Nursery, looking after children aged between 2 and 4 years.

The Nursery is obliged by Ofsted to encourage the children to respect and adopt what Ofsted refer to as 'British values'.
These are defined as:

* Democracy
* The Rule of Law
* Individual Liberty
* Mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs

Ofsted judge the Nursery on how well it is achieving this when they carry out audits.

I'm not sure how easy it is to instil these values into a 2-year-old!
In practice, my wife tends to concentrate on what I would call the 'traditional' values of good manners. sharing, not bullying, waiting your turn, being polite and kind to others etc.
 
But I find it interesting that Ofsted have defined these values, the fact that they specifically call them 'British' values, and that they will judge the Nursery on how successfully they are being promoted to the children. Indeed, Ofsted will audit what action the Nursery will take if anyone is acting to undermine these values.

Yeah those are exclusively British values because nun o' them dirty foreigners have them.

[wilts rover]

I do think that we as a country are one of the most tolerant and diverse countries in the world.

We shouldn’t let the minority stir up division and give us a cynical sneering attitude to all things “British”. That doesn’t help anyone either and losing touch with our values would lead to social denigration.

Sorry HA I missed your post l, mine was quite similar by accident I’ve only joined in on about page 4 so I’m a bit behind!

Yes I agree ncRover - we are one of the most tolerant countries in the world. And that includes people from all faiths, religions and ethnic backgrounds.

Pancho is also correct (although it is a bit more than he said - the booklet we go by is here) about the teaching of British values. They are not taught seperately but included in ALL lesson planning:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a758c9540f0b6397f35f469/SMSC_Guidance_Maintained_Schools.pdf

I am a governor at the most ethnically and religiously diverse primary school in out town and it is a delight to be involved with it and see how the children all learn from one another and get on together.

Unfortunately though not all society is like that and there is a small - but vocal - minority who dont want to get on with people who are different to them and are intolerant if not plain antagonistic to others.

[wilts rover]

And there is data to support the above. People from immigrant backgrounds have successfully intigrated in Britain better than most other European counties when judges in a number of different levels:

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1767836694827462936

[selby]

  Everyone loves us, and our hotels and the fact we are a soft touch.

[SydneyRover]

  Everyone loves us, and our hotels and the fact we are a soft touch.

I was thinking of dropping by and claiming ₤3000 towards a trip to Africa

[Sprotyrover]

  Everyone loves us, and our hotels and the fact we are a soft touch.

I was thinking of dropping by and claiming ₤3000 towards a trip to Africa

I think that’s a fantastic idea,GO FOR IT!

[idler]

A lot of other forum users would chip in. Especially if there is no internet access there.

[drfchound]

I’m in.

[Ldr]

A lot of other forum users would chip in. Especially if there is no internet access there.

100%

[Sprotyrover]

Me too !GO FOR IT! Somewhere in Saharan Chad
Get a bit of a Tan Skippy!

[tyke1962]

  Everyone loves us, and our hotels and the fact we are a soft touch.

I was thinking of dropping by and claiming ₤3000 towards a trip to Africa

May I recommend The Serengeti Syd , I'm sure going on a Walkabout without a guide would be an incredibly uplifting experience .

Don't forget to pack your corked hat .

[Iberian Red]

Oh dear,this thread has been hijacked into an insult Sydney thread.
It's like Phienix Nights,'Send the Buggers Back'.
No wonder people are prepared to accept incredibly racist comments from a Tory donor when this is the mentality of certain posters.

[scawsby steve]

Oh dear,this thread has been hijacked into an insult Sydney thread.
It's like Phienix Nights,'Send the Buggers Back'.
No wonder people are prepared to accept incredibly racist comments from a Tory donor when this is the mentality of certain posters.

Who are the people who are prepared to accept the racist comments from the Tory donor? And what's that got to do with comments about Sydney?

Have you not read his posts over the last few years?

[drfchound]

Oh dear,this thread has been hijacked into an insult Sydney thread.
It's like Phienix Nights,'Send the Buggers Back'.
No wonder people are prepared to accept incredibly racist comments from a Tory donor when this is the mentality of certain posters.

Nope, I’ve looked back and can’t find any posts which accept the comments by Hester.
Something else you have made up.

[Iberian Red]

Maybe not Graham,bit some can't find it in themselves to call him out

[drfchound]

Who have you got in mind?

[Iberian Red]

Who have you got in mind?

Your dear self to start,then your little clan

[drfchound]

Who have you got in mind?

Your dear self to start,then your little clan

What evidence are you providing that I am a racist person.
Who is my clan.
Who has posted that they accept the Hester comments.

[Iberian Red]

Who have you got in mind?

Your dear self to start,then your little clan

What evidence are you providing that I am a racist person.
Who is my clan.
Who has posted that they accept the Hester comments.

I never used the 'racist card'.
You did.