London

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tommy

You'll recall earlier in this thread I noted that there was a large influx of Irish Catholic economic migrants into this region 150 years ago.

The Catholic Church still discriminates against homosexuals.

Did that influx change "our" culture in a negative way?

PS.

I thought we had an interesting discussion going on here, but that remark about Jones is very distasteful.

I don't particularly like him, but implying that he shouldn't care about a slaughter of innocent people because of their supposed "cultural" and religious views is really not worth engaging with.

[Herbert Anchovy]

On Wednesday me and a few of the lads at work are visiting a community cafe during our break, as we do most Wednesdays. It’s a cafe run by a group of Asian women who make absolutely wonderful curries and there’s no price list. You simply pay what you can afford. All sorts of people visit this cafe and it’s great for people who may be having a bit of a tough time. It’s their way of helping out the community. You know that great British cultural tradition of helping others less fortunate? I’ll mention to them that, because of their culture, religion, skin colour or whatever it is, London isn’t an English city anymore. Im sure they’ll find it hilarious.

[Iberian Red]

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.

Rubbish. The loony Lefties condemned it, and they STILL do on this forum!

I'm on a line for gammon bingo.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm fascinated about who these loony left folk are in here who condemn Til Death Us Do Part for being racist.

[Not Now Kato]

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.

Rubbish. The loony Lefties condemned it, and they STILL do on this forum!

Stupid boy!  Point me to ant post by someone you call from the 'Loony Left' on here who condemned it.  The whole program was aimed at making the Rapid Right racists and bigots look stupid.

[scawsby steve]

I’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent?

I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’?

Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine.

So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?

Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions.

If that makes me a racist to Billy and his cohort of lefty bedwetting snowflakes on this forum, then I couldn't care less.

In the real world, talking to sane moderate people is where you find the real consensus.

People like them live in a tiny microcosm, reading the guardian and socialist social media channels, talking to other like minded people on their hard left forums, it just serves to fuel their hard left radical views.
So when they poke their heads out into the real world, they become shocked that regular people don't think the same way.

So no london isn't an English city, its a global city.

Englishness is being pushed out, like the celts were by the saxons.

I'll finish by asking just how diversity is our strength? As the mayor of said city said once after a terror attack.

Sorry TS, but I don’t really understand your point. Are you saying that people should be a specific colour, creed or religion to be English? I have friends in South London who are Asian Muslims and born in London. They absolutely class themselves as English. I have a black friend who’s a Buddhist and born in East London. Do they make London less English?

I didn't say anything of the sort

I asked why London isn’t English anymore and you replied

“Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds and religions “ which seems to suggest that we should only have one of each in London for it to be English.

Herbert, to lighten the thread up a bit, because it's getting too toxic for me, when you can't get to the Rovers games, do you watch games in London?

Whenever I've had Rovers away days in London, I've always enjoyed the atmosphere of those grounds. My favourite London ground for location and atmosphere was Craven Cottage.

[TommyC]

Tommy

You'll recall earlier in this thread I noted that there was a large influx of Irish Catholic economic migrants into this region 150 years ago.

The Catholic Church still discriminates against homosexuals.

Did that influx change "our" culture in a negative way?

PS.

I thought we had an interesting discussion going on here, but that remark about Jones is very distasteful.

I don't particularly like him, but implying that he shouldn't care about a slaughter of innocent people because of their supposed "cultural" and religious views is really not worth engaging with.

Distasteful yes. But do you not acknowledge the utter lunacy of Jones as an openly gay man championing Muslim issues?

The Catholic Church example is a poor one. There is no comparison between Catholic immigrants and Muslim ideology. The former were themselves deliberately kept down and persecuted by society. The same cannot be said of more recent Muslim migrants who hold incompatible views.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tommy.

Are you doubling down on that Jones line?

Are you REALLY saying it is "utter lunacy" for a gay man to campaign about the massacre of Palestinian civilians?

[wilts rover]

I'm fascinated about who these loony keft folk are in here who condemn Til Death Us Do Part for being racist.

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.

Rubbish. The loony Lefties condemned it, and they STILL do on this forum!

Stupid boy!  Point me to ant post by someone you call from the 'Loony Left' on here who condemned it.  The whole program was aimed at making the Rapid Right racists and bigots look stupid.

Better not tell him that 'Alf' wasn't really a West Ham fan either - he was lifelong Spurs.

[SydneyRover]

Next you'll be suggesting muslims can't be gay TC, hmmm

[drfchound]

I'm fascinated about who these loony keft folk are in here who condemn Til Death Us Do Part for being racist.

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.

Rubbish. The loony Lefties condemned it, and they STILL do on this forum!

Stupid boy!  Point me to ant post by someone you call from the 'Loony Left' on here who condemned it.  The whole program was aimed at making the Rapid Right racists and bigots look stupid.

Better not tell him that 'Alf' wasn't really a West Ham fan either - he was lifelong Spurs.

Strictly speaking wilts, Warren Mitchell might have been a Spurs fan but Alf was definitely a Hammer.

[Glyn_Wigley]

When people begin a sentence with,
"I'm not racist..."
it's so predictable.

What it usually means is that what follows should actually say '...but I'm going to talk and act like one.'

[Iberian Red]

Walk like a duck,and all that.

[Iberian Red]

Apparently the entertainment and night time economy is bombing, not surprising with the transport costs the Labour regime in power have imposed on the place and it not being seen as safe as many would like with knife crime and muggins an epidemic.
  Plus it isn't really an English city anymore is it? and you go on holiday for a change of entertainment and its cheaper.

Not sure where you’ve got your info from Selby, but as a long time resident of our fair capital I can assure you that public transport down here is light years ahead of the rest of the country. It’s fairly cheap, very convenient and pretty safe.

As River Don points out, a night out down here (in the centre of London anyway) isn’t cheap at all. £7 a pint isn’t unusual. Young ‘uns these days simply can’t afford it very often. Saying that, you’ll struggle to find an empty boozer in the west end on an evening.

About it not being an English city anymore, what makes you say that?

Ignorance.

Ignorance.

Bigotry.

Racism.

They do tend to go hand in hand don't they Pancho.

They do indeed IR.

Selby, or one of his mates, might be along soon to tell us he was just casting his bait in order to catch one of us stupid, unsuspecting, ‘woke’ lefties.

Pancho,please tell me the numbers for tomorrow's Euromillions.
Your last prediction was so correct.
Who would have thought it could've been stretched to 4 pages?

[ncRover]

The amount of people who identify as “British” is not provided in the census data.

However, a 2017 yougov survey showed that “86% of Londoners also expressed attachment to their  British identity, even though only 75% hold a British passport”.

https://centreforlondon.org/reader/london-identities/being-a-londoner/?ssp=1&setlang=en-gb&cc=GB&safesearch=moderate#local-area

Between 2024 and 2027, London’s economy is expected to grow faster than the rest of the UK’s.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/04/uk-regional-growth-gap-to-widen-as-london-pulls-further-ahead?ssp=1&setlang=en-gb&cc=GB&safesearch=moderate

Places that rely heavily on tourism such as London, York and Edinburgh also seem to represent British culture to a caricature level. To me they do anyway.

[TommyC]

Next you'll be suggesting muslims can't be gay TC, hmmm

No, I won't Syd. I'm pretty relaxed about people's sexuality to be quite honest.

No Syd, it's the Quran and certain Muslim countries who deem it a sin punishable by death.

[SydneyRover]

Next you'll be suggesting muslims can't be gay TC, hmmm

No, I won't Syd. I'm pretty relaxed about people's sexuality to be quite honest.

No Syd, it's the Quran and certain Muslim countries who deem it a sin punishable by death.

Excellent, maybe you could explain why Jones shouldn't be championing Muslim issues just because he's gay, what has his sexuality got to do with anything?

''Distasteful yes. But do you not acknowledge the utter lunacy of Jones as an openly gay man championing Muslim issues?''

[TommyC]

Tommy.

Are you doubling down on that Jones line?

Are you REALLY saying it is "utter lunacy" for a gay man to campaign about the massacre of Palestinian civilians?

Oh knock it off with your faux outrage BST. Lunacy is a strong word, fair enough. So i rephrase to just say his actions lack credibility when looked at in the context of a religion that would deny him the right to exist.

[SydneyRover]

Someone hand that man a spade

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's really not faux anything Tommy. I'm genuinely astonished that an intelligent person can't see why someone can a) be against a specific religious stance and b) still not want people who may or may not support that stance, to be massacred.

[TommyC]

Next you'll be suggesting muslims can't be gay TC, hmmm

No, I won't Syd. I'm pretty relaxed about people's sexuality to be quite honest.

No Syd, it's the Quran and certain Muslim countries who deem it a sin punishable by death.

Excellent, maybe you could explain why Jones shouldn't be championing Muslim issues just because he's gay, what has his sexuality got to do with anything?

''Distasteful yes. But do you not acknowledge the utter lunacy of Jones as an openly gay man championing Muslim issues?''

Next you'll be suggesting muslims can't be gay TC, hmmm

No, I won't Syd. I'm pretty relaxed about people's sexuality to be quite honest.

No Syd, it's the Quran and certain Muslim countries who deem it a sin punishable by death.

Excellent, maybe you could explain why Jones shouldn't be championing Muslim issues just because he's gay, what has his sexuality got to do with anything?

''Distasteful yes. But do you not acknowledge the utter lunacy of Jones as an openly gay man championing Muslim issues?''

He can champion whatever causes he wants Syd. But it takes a special kind of blinkeredness, not to at least acknowledge the irony of him doing so. Turkeys voting for Christmas etc.

[SydneyRover]

JCB?

[TommyC]

JCB?

Everyone's favourite d**khead has just woken up it seems.

[SydneyRover]

JCB?

Everyone's favourite d**khead has just woken up it seems.

I was trying to kind TC, but your ignorance keeps shining through

[Herbert Anchovy]

The amount of people who identify as “British” is not provided in the census data.

However, a 2017 yougov survey showed that “86% of Londoners also expressed attachment to their  British identity, even though only 75% hold a British passport”.

https://centreforlondon.org/reader/london-identities/being-a-londoner/?ssp=1&setlang=en-gb&cc=GB&safesearch=moderate#local-area

Between 2024 and 2027, London’s economy is expected to grow faster than the rest of the UK’s.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/04/uk-regional-growth-gap-to-widen-as-london-pulls-further-ahead?ssp=1&setlang=en-gb&cc=GB&safesearch=moderate

Places that rely heavily on tourism such as London, York and Edinburgh also seem to represent British culture to a caricature level. To me they do anyway.

That’s really interesting nc and kind of echoes what I see. I just cannot understand the claim about London and despite all of the posts on this thread, I’m still none the wiser!

[Herbert Anchovy]

I’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent?

I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’?

Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine.

So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?

Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions.

If that makes me a racist to Billy and his cohort of lefty bedwetting snowflakes on this forum, then I couldn't care less.

In the real world, talking to sane moderate people is where you find the real consensus.

People like them live in a tiny microcosm, reading the guardian and socialist social media channels, talking to other like minded people on their hard left forums, it just serves to fuel their hard left radical views.
So when they poke their heads out into the real world, they become shocked that regular people don't think the same way.

So no london isn't an English city, its a global city.

Englishness is being pushed out, like the celts were by the saxons.

I'll finish by asking just how diversity is our strength? As the mayor of said city said once after a terror attack.

Sorry TS, but I don’t really understand your point. Are you saying that people should be a specific colour, creed or religion to be English? I have friends in South London who are Asian Muslims and born in London. They absolutely class themselves as English. I have a black friend who’s a Buddhist and born in East London. Do they make London less English?

I didn't say anything of the sort

I asked why London isn’t English anymore and you replied

“Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds and religions “ which seems to suggest that we should only have one of each in London for it to be English.

Herbert, to lighten the thread up a bit, because it's getting too toxic for me, when you can't get to the Rovers games, do you watch games in London?

Whenever I've had Rovers away days in London, I've always enjoyed the atmosphere of those grounds. My favourite London ground for location and atmosphere was Craven Cottage.

I occasionally go to games down here fella, maybe a couple a season but not as many as I once did. I’ll usually go to a West Ham or Spurs game with some mates of mine. I do enjoy it because I can relax and enjoy the game! Back in the day I would regularly go to matches in London and have visited all of the league grounds and a few of the non league ones over the years. I used to enjoy going to Upton Park as it had a wonderful atmosphere. Highbury was pretty good too. I couldn’t get on with Stamford Bridge though as the pitch seemed miles away from the stands. It was also the scariest stadium that I went to as some of their fans were absolutely mad.

Funnily enough, Ive only visited Craven Cottage once and that was for a Milk Cup game in the 80’s when Rovers played there. Malcolm McDonald was their manager at the time. It’s a lovely ground though.

[SydneyRover]

The amount of people who identify as “British” is not provided in the census data.

However, a 2017 yougov survey showed that “86% of Londoners also expressed attachment to their  British identity, even though only 75% hold a British passport”.

https://centreforlondon.org/reader/london-identities/being-a-londoner/?ssp=1&setlang=en-gb&cc=GB&safesearch=moderate#local-area

Between 2024 and 2027, London’s economy is expected to grow faster than the rest of the UK’s.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/04/uk-regional-growth-gap-to-widen-as-london-pulls-further-ahead?ssp=1&setlang=en-gb&cc=GB&safesearch=moderate

Places that rely heavily on tourism such as London, York and Edinburgh also seem to represent British culture to a caricature level. To me they do anyway.

That’s really interesting nc and kind of echoes what I see. I just cannot understand the claim about London and despite all of the posts on this thread, I’m still none the wiser!

You won't HA, because when all the organic changes that occur through travel, work, immigration, migration, media etc are scraped away there is only one thing left imho.

[Herbert Anchovy]

So despite 4 pages of ‘ahem’ robust debate, I’m still no clearer why London isn’t an English city anymore nor am I clear what parts of English culture people are unable to adhere to in London.

Maybe some folks on here feel they can’t express their opinions clearly and honestly? Maybe they’re secretly embarrassed by them?

People who are of a different culture, religion or colour to you are not the cause of your problems. They have no power or control whatsoever over you. If you are unhappy with your lot then I’d recommend looking into Parliament for the source of your unhappiness. Or the mirror.

London is a great city. Go and visit it sometime and count how many Union Jacks you see compared to in Donny. You’ll be pleasantly surprised.

[Not Now Kato]

So despite 4 pages of ‘ahem’ robust debate, I’m still no clearer why London isn’t an English city anymore nor am I clear what parts of English culture people are unable to adhere to in London.

Maybe some folks on here feel they can’t express their opinions clearly and honestly? Maybe they’re secretly embarrassed by them?

People who are of a different culture, religion or colour to you are not the cause of your problems. They have no power or control whatsoever over you. If you are unhappy with your lot then I’d recommend looking into Parliament for the source of your unhappiness. Or the mirror.

London is a great city. Go and visit it sometime and count how many Union Jacks you see compared to in Donny. You’ll be pleasantly surprised.

Absolutely. If only people understood that we’d start to move forward as a society. Sadly, the far right and the main stream media fools people into thinking otherwise! And governments aren’t entirely innocent of this methodology either  - just listen again to Sunak’s latest big speech.

[Pancho Regan]

So despite 4 pages of ‘ahem’ robust debate, I’m still no clearer why London isn’t an English city anymore nor am I clear what parts of English culture people are unable to adhere to in London.

Maybe some folks on here feel they can’t express their opinions clearly and honestly? Maybe they’re secretly embarrassed by them?

People who are of a different culture, religion or colour to you are not the cause of your problems. They have no power or control whatsoever over you. If you are unhappy with your lot then I’d recommend looking into Parliament for the source of your unhappiness. Or the mirror.

London is a great city. Go and visit it sometime and count how many Union Jacks you see compared to in Donny. You’ll be pleasantly surprised.

Agreed HA, well said.
 
I'm only an occasional visitor to London nowadays, and always as a 'tourist'. I love going there, it has so much to offer and so much to see and do. I enjoy the multicultural element of London and what that has brought to the city.

I'm enjoying reading the contributions to this debate (well, most of them) so I guess I should be grateful to the OP for starting the thread, and equally grateful to him for not joining in!

I'm not sure how relevant this is, and it's nothing to do specifically with London, but Mrs Pancho told me something I found interesting the other day.
She works in a Nursery, looking after children aged between 2 and 4 years.

The Nursery is obliged by Ofsted to encourage the children to respect and adopt what Ofsted refer to as 'British values'.
These are defined as:

* Democracy
* The Rule of Law
* Individual Liberty
* Mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs

Ofsted judge the Nursery on how well it is achieving this when they carry out audits.

I'm not sure how easy it is to instil these values into a 2-year-old!
In practice, my wife tends to concentrate on what I would call the 'traditional' values of good manners. sharing, not bullying, waiting your turn, being polite and kind to others etc.
 
But I find it interesting that Ofsted have defined these values, the fact that they specifically call them 'British' values, and that they will judge the Nursery on how successfully they are being promoted to the children. Indeed, Ofsted will audit what action the Nursery will take if anyone is acting to undermine these values.