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Apparently the entertainment and night time economy is bombing, not surprising with the transport costs the Labour regime in power have imposed on the place and it not being seen as safe as many would like with knife crime and muggins an epidemic. Plus it isn't really an English city anymore is it? and you go on holiday for a change of entertainment and its cheaper.
Is it racist to say that London is becoming "non-English"? It's a clumsy way of putting it yes and it does provide an open-goal to the usual suspects who love to leap on that kind of comment and scream "racist". Is it racist to state the fact that since the late 90s and particularly under the years of the Blair government(s), that population diversity in London has increased at a higher rate than in any previous historical period, to such an extent that in 2011 it was reported that White-British people had become a minority in the City for the first time? I believe that trend and rate of diversification has continued since then.A number of posters on this thread claim only to deal in facts, backed up by hard statistics. There are plenty of stats out there relating to the diversification of the London population. I'm not sure it's racist to point out what seems to be an incontrovertible fact.
I don't know Syd, you might be able to explain why you think losing its English heritage is associated with colour, as you are the one that associated it with the subject, it never entered my head. Your a big part of the problem, linking things that you disagree with to others being racist, insulting them, it's your go to get out, your probably sick, go to the doctors.
Is it racist to say that London is becoming "non-English"? It's a clumsy way of putting it yes and it does provide an open-goal to the usual suspects who love to leap on that kind of comment and scream "racist". Is it racist to state the fact that since the late 90s and particularly under the years of the Blair government(s), that population diversity in London has increased at a higher rate than in any previous historical period, to such an extent that in 2011 it was reported that White-British people had become a minority in the City for the first time? I believe that trend and rate of diversification has continued since then.A number of posters on this thread claim only to deal in facts, backed up by hard statistics. There are plenty of stats out there relating to the diversification of the London population. I'm not sure it's racist to point out what seems to be an incontrovertible fact.
My point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics. "Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.
Tommy, you keep referring to "white British". Apart from the bleedin obvious with using that term, are you excluding 3rd generation Irish, Dutch, Polish, Italian, Turkish, from that grouping?
Quote from: TommyC on March 11, 2024, 12:21:49 pmMy point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics. "Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.The OP very clearly said that London isn't an English city anymore. Not that it's 'non-white' (though that doesn't make sense either). So I'm trying to clarify whether the two are linked! Is London no longer considered English because there's so many non-white people or is it down to cultural & societal changes as you hinted at? I realise that I'm unfairly trying to get an answer from you although you didn't make the OP, but I am truly baffled by this. For the record, London has gone through significant cultural and societal changes throughout its history and I'm not sure that it's ever been defined as 'not English' in the past when these changes have occurred, so am wondering what's different now?
My point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics. "Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on March 11, 2024, 12:46:21 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 11, 2024, 12:21:49 pmMy point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics. "Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.The OP very clearly said that London isn't an English city anymore. Not that it's 'non-white' (though that doesn't make sense either). So I'm trying to clarify whether the two are linked! Is London no longer considered English because there's so many non-white people or is it down to cultural & societal changes as you hinted at? I realise that I'm unfairly trying to get an answer from you although you didn't make the OP, but I am truly baffled by this. For the record, London has gone through significant cultural and societal changes throughout its history and I'm not sure that it's ever been defined as 'not English' in the past when these changes have occurred, so am wondering what's different now?Well, as you say it isnt really for me to predict what he meant. However, given he used the word "english", an appropriate place to start could be the decline in English as the first spoken language in the London population? I'm not saying I think that's a bad thing but you did ask for examples so why not start there.
Societies change. They always have and they always will. What always comes out the other end is different from what went in. Always been the way. Some people embrace that, some feel threatened by it. https://youtu.be/a17duTUK6qw?feature=shared
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 11, 2024, 02:10:08 pmSocieties change. They always have and they always will. What always comes out the other end is different from what went in. Always been the way. Some people embrace that, some feel threatened by it. https://youtu.be/a17duTUK6qw?feature=sharedHow dare you Billy!I have just PMSL!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a17duTUK6qw
Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!
Tommy.Serious question here. What do you mean by "OUR history, culture and society"?Define that and I'll have a go at answering your question.
Quote from: Bentley Bullet on March 11, 2024, 03:14:15 pmStewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s! Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.
I don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".I'll give you a couple of examples.Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?
Quote from: TonySoprano on March 10, 2024, 11:28:57 amQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on March 10, 2024, 08:32:07 amI’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent? I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’? Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine. So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions. If that makes me a racist to Billy and his cohort of lefty bedwetting snowflakes on this forum, then I couldn't care less. In the real world, talking to sane moderate people is where you find the real consensus. People like them live in a tiny microcosm, reading the guardian and socialist social media channels, talking to other like minded people on their hard left forums, it just serves to fuel their hard left radical views. So when they poke their heads out into the real world, they become shocked that regular people don't think the same way. So no london isn't an English city, its a global city. Englishness is being pushed out, like the celts were by the saxons. I'll finish by asking just how diversity is our strength? As the mayor of said city said once after a terror attack.Sorry TS, but I don’t really understand your point. Are you saying that people should be a specific colour, creed or religion to be English? I have friends in South London who are Asian Muslims and born in London. They absolutely class themselves as English. I have a black friend who’s a Buddhist and born in East London. Do they make London less English?
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on March 10, 2024, 08:32:07 amI’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent? I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’? Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine. So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions. If that makes me a racist to Billy and his cohort of lefty bedwetting snowflakes on this forum, then I couldn't care less. In the real world, talking to sane moderate people is where you find the real consensus. People like them live in a tiny microcosm, reading the guardian and socialist social media channels, talking to other like minded people on their hard left forums, it just serves to fuel their hard left radical views. So when they poke their heads out into the real world, they become shocked that regular people don't think the same way. So no london isn't an English city, its a global city. Englishness is being pushed out, like the celts were by the saxons. I'll finish by asking just how diversity is our strength? As the mayor of said city said once after a terror attack.
I’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent? I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’? Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine. So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 11, 2024, 04:14:12 pmQuote from: Bentley Bullet on March 11, 2024, 03:14:15 pmStewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s! Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.Rubbish. The loony Lefties condemned it, and they STILL do on this forum!
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 11, 2024, 05:03:16 pmI don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".I'll give you a couple of examples.Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?Okay, I believe that in "British" society we do not discriminate against women and homosexuals. Would you agree?
I don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".I'll give you a couple of examples.Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on March 10, 2024, 12:24:29 pmQuote from: TonySoprano on March 10, 2024, 11:28:57 amQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on March 10, 2024, 08:32:07 amI’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent? I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’? Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine. So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions. If that makes me a racist to Billy and his cohort of lefty bedwetting snowflakes on this forum, then I couldn't care less. In the real world, talking to sane moderate people is where you find the real consensus. People like them live in a tiny microcosm, reading the guardian and socialist social media channels, talking to other like minded people on their hard left forums, it just serves to fuel their hard left radical views. So when they poke their heads out into the real world, they become shocked that regular people don't think the same way. So no london isn't an English city, its a global city. Englishness is being pushed out, like the celts were by the saxons. I'll finish by asking just how diversity is our strength? As the mayor of said city said once after a terror attack.Sorry TS, but I don’t really understand your point. Are you saying that people should be a specific colour, creed or religion to be English? I have friends in South London who are Asian Muslims and born in London. They absolutely class themselves as English. I have a black friend who’s a Buddhist and born in East London. Do they make London less English?I didn't say anything of the sort
Quote from: TommyC on March 11, 2024, 06:00:41 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 11, 2024, 05:03:16 pmI don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".I'll give you a couple of examples.Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?Okay, I believe that in "British" society we do not discriminate against women and homosexuals. Would you agree? Legally yes, in very recent times. "Culturally" I'd say there's a substantial minority of the population who do think homosexual people are ",different" in a negative sense.Are we defining "culture" as "what an undefined majority thinks"?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 11, 2024, 05:03:16 pmI don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".I'll give you a couple of examples.Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?Okay, I believe that in "British" society we do not discriminate against women and homosexuals. Would you agree?
I don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".I'll give you a couple of examples.Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?