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Quote from: tyke1962 on June 11, 2022, 10:52:52 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 11, 2022, 10:41:47 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 11, 2022, 10:04:43 pmQuote from: River Don on June 11, 2022, 09:53:14 pmI voted for Brexit and hoped for a hard Brexit.I was wrong.It is clear now this Brexit cannot happen without causing untold damage in Northern Ireland. We were warned of this but I always thought we could fudge it. It's clear now we can't. It is also clear there is no political appetite to prevent mass immigration into the UK, even though it is an environmental nightmare.I now think we have to aim for some sort of soft Brexit whilst we remain in the single market. Things had moved too far, we will have to live with it. Reality bites.I do not want to see any further political integration with the EU. I want to see the uk remain as independent as it possibly can.Not without a mandate from the electorate surely RD ?The electorate never gave a mandate to leave the Single Market or Customs Union!Don't talk ridiculous man .There's only been one national vote in which the option of leaving the SM and CU was explicitly on the table. The 2019 General Election. Only 47% of votes were cast for parties explicitly standing on the policy that we leave the SM and CU.The question was never put in 2016. Many on the Brexit side explicitly or implicitly campaigned on the principle that we could leave the EU and stay in the SM and CU. The decision to leave the SM and CU was made by Theresa May and her alone in early 2017, with no reference to what the electorate wanted. Every opinion poll at the time showed a large majority across all parties prepared to accept a soft Brexit which meant us staying in the SM and CU.If you are going to lecture us about democracy, you'd do well to leave your personal prejudices at the door and engage with the established facts. It is a fact that there isn't, and has never been any evidence that a majority in this country want to leave the SM and CU. But that's what we have done.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 11, 2022, 10:41:47 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 11, 2022, 10:04:43 pmQuote from: River Don on June 11, 2022, 09:53:14 pmI voted for Brexit and hoped for a hard Brexit.I was wrong.It is clear now this Brexit cannot happen without causing untold damage in Northern Ireland. We were warned of this but I always thought we could fudge it. It's clear now we can't. It is also clear there is no political appetite to prevent mass immigration into the UK, even though it is an environmental nightmare.I now think we have to aim for some sort of soft Brexit whilst we remain in the single market. Things had moved too far, we will have to live with it. Reality bites.I do not want to see any further political integration with the EU. I want to see the uk remain as independent as it possibly can.Not without a mandate from the electorate surely RD ?The electorate never gave a mandate to leave the Single Market or Customs Union!Don't talk ridiculous man .
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 11, 2022, 10:04:43 pmQuote from: River Don on June 11, 2022, 09:53:14 pmI voted for Brexit and hoped for a hard Brexit.I was wrong.It is clear now this Brexit cannot happen without causing untold damage in Northern Ireland. We were warned of this but I always thought we could fudge it. It's clear now we can't. It is also clear there is no political appetite to prevent mass immigration into the UK, even though it is an environmental nightmare.I now think we have to aim for some sort of soft Brexit whilst we remain in the single market. Things had moved too far, we will have to live with it. Reality bites.I do not want to see any further political integration with the EU. I want to see the uk remain as independent as it possibly can.Not without a mandate from the electorate surely RD ?The electorate never gave a mandate to leave the Single Market or Customs Union!
Quote from: River Don on June 11, 2022, 09:53:14 pmI voted for Brexit and hoped for a hard Brexit.I was wrong.It is clear now this Brexit cannot happen without causing untold damage in Northern Ireland. We were warned of this but I always thought we could fudge it. It's clear now we can't. It is also clear there is no political appetite to prevent mass immigration into the UK, even though it is an environmental nightmare.I now think we have to aim for some sort of soft Brexit whilst we remain in the single market. Things had moved too far, we will have to live with it. Reality bites.I do not want to see any further political integration with the EU. I want to see the uk remain as independent as it possibly can.Not without a mandate from the electorate surely RD ?
I voted for Brexit and hoped for a hard Brexit.I was wrong.It is clear now this Brexit cannot happen without causing untold damage in Northern Ireland. We were warned of this but I always thought we could fudge it. It's clear now we can't. It is also clear there is no political appetite to prevent mass immigration into the UK, even though it is an environmental nightmare.I now think we have to aim for some sort of soft Brexit whilst we remain in the single market. Things had moved too far, we will have to live with it. Reality bites.I do not want to see any further political integration with the EU. I want to see the uk remain as independent as it possibly can.
Tyke.You have this very odd way of avoiding every simple issue that is presented to you and pouring out a diatribe like a muck spreader on turbo mode.I'll make it simple for you. A yes or no question. Do you agree that there has never been a democratic mandate for the leaving of the SM and CU?
Tyke.You have this very odd way of avoiding every simple issue that is presented to you and pouring out a diatribe like a muck spreader on turbo mode.I was making a very simple point of fact. No opinion. No interpretation. I'll make it simple for you. A yes or no question. Do you agree that there has never been a democratic mandate for the leaving of the SM and CU?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 09:41:47 amTyke.You have this very odd way of avoiding every simple issue that is presented to you and pouring out a diatribe like a muck spreader on turbo mode.I'll make it simple for you. A yes or no question. Do you agree that there has never been a democratic mandate for the leaving of the SM and CU?No I don't agree .
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 09:41:47 amTyke.You have this very odd way of avoiding every simple issue that is presented to you and pouring out a diatribe like a muck spreader on turbo mode.I was making a very simple point of fact. No opinion. No interpretation. I'll make it simple for you. A yes or no question. Do you agree that there has never been a democratic mandate for the leaving of the SM and CU?Firstly my position (previously stated) is that I had hoped for a softer brexit. leaving the SM and CU is stupid.Having said that and putting opinion and what bullshit fell from politicians mouths to one side.Logically the SM and CU are a part of the EU, therefore it follows that in a binary choice to remain or leave, that leaving the EU involved leaving the SM and CU. Do you agree BST?
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 10:22:12 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 09:41:47 amTyke.You have this very odd way of avoiding every simple issue that is presented to you and pouring out a diatribe like a muck spreader on turbo mode.I'll make it simple for you. A yes or no question. Do you agree that there has never been a democratic mandate for the leaving of the SM and CU?No I don't agree .Go on then. When was the vote that gave that mandate.
So Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.
As I keep saying , put returning to the SM and CU in an election manifesto .That would be my compromise , I aren't exactly going to be happy about it as I feel I've voted on this issue 6 years ago but none the less in the interests of building bridges I'll grudgingly accept it .Any Party who were to put that in their manifesto I'd vote against them even if it meant voting Tory which would be for the first time ever .
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:03:44 amAs I keep saying , put returning to the SM and CU in an election manifesto .That would be my compromise , I aren't exactly going to be happy about it as I feel I've voted on this issue 6 years ago but none the less in the interests of building bridges I'll grudgingly accept it .Any Party who were to put that in their manifesto I'd vote against them even if it meant voting Tory which would be for the first time ever .And once again you avoid the question.My take? We WILL rejoin the SM in 15-20 years when the extent if the damage you've done becomes undeniable. Would I want that now? No, because people like you and Farage and Johnson have made the topic far too dangerously divisive.My point in this thread is to get you to face up to the fact that there never was s democratic mandate for leaving the SM. Useful idioys on the Left like you were simply used to enable a far-right coup that imposed the Brexit that IT decided the 2016 vote allowed, not mandated.When you come to terms with that, we can start to move on. But as I've said times many, I fully understand the difficulty in doing that when you've been the mark in a sting.
Even one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.
By the way Tyke. If leaving the SM and CU was an automatic consequence of the Brexit vote, why did May wait until Jan 2017 to announce that this was now our policy?
Tyke.Feel free to find an example of me ever calling all Leave voters racists and thick as mince.Take your time.Then come back and we can discuss where you get these ideas from.
Quote from: SydneyRover on June 12, 2022, 11:41:15 amEven one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.Heroes ??That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 11:37:19 amTyke.Feel free to find an example of me ever calling all Leave voters racists and thick as mince.Take your time.Then come back and we can discuss where you get these ideas from.Plenty of words to the affect Billy over the last 6 years .
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:08:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .Simple being the operative word.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 08:23:12 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:08:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .Simple being the operative word.What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.