I dont usually read the Guardian

[Ldr]

But since it's increasingly the only acceptable source of information to many. I found this an interesting piece. Grim reading even from a viewpoint of a current non labour voter, I'd prefer a strong opposition regardless of the party in power.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/dysfunctional-toxic-culture-led-to-labour-defeat-major-report-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true

[Ldr]

And from 2017 to 2019 Labour lost more remain voters than leave voters. Interesting stat (though appreciate leave voters tend to lean more conservative)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/key-points-from-review-of-2019-labour-election-defeat

[IDM]

On the bbc website it says this was written before the coronavirus pandemic.

It therefore doesn’t take into account the improvement in the perspective of Labour due to KS (not just a “new leader” as referred to in the report, but the man himself), but more importantly it doesn’t take into account the humongous car crash that has been Johnson and his cohorts.

Labour will gain votes from middle ground people who won’t want Johnson, just as labour lost them due to Corbyn.

[River Don]

The Guardian not being behind a paywall is probably as much a reason it gets quoted regularly on here as anything else.

[EasyforDennis]

Corbyn needs to confine himself to his allotment

[tyke1962]

I suspect the Tories were asking themselves the same questions when Blair was routing them in 3 GE's , well I know they were because I've read that many in the Tory Party thought they'd never see power again .

The days of Cool Britannia and a modern Britain seem a distant memory today .

The Labour Party haven't had any more problems than the Tories but it's perceived that they have , I wonder what the Tory Party's inquiry into the GE defeats in 1997 , 2001 and 2005 concluded ?

Probably a party tearing itself apart internally and one out of touch with the electorate I'd imagine .

Yet the Tories today haven't really changed that much , they still elect poor leaders , they are still divided , the divisions are starting to rear over Johnson and Cummings , the easing of covid - 19 restrictions and the trade deal with the EU and US and its right wing position .

The Tories haven't had anything new to say since the mid 70's policy wise , low tax , small government and a market led economy .

Starmer looks to have the credibility game won but needs the policies that back that up and offer the electorate the change the country requires .

This is where the problem exists and whether the party has the courage to cut through like New Labour did but not become New Labour if you take my point .

The starting point is affordable housing , for want of a better word , slum clearance , the younger people on very average and non too secure jobs are crying out for affordable new housing , there are vast areas in this country that need demolishing , Barnsley has them , Doncaster , Rotherham and across the UK .

This is the kind of policy that requires strength of conviction but cuts through , the strength of conviction shown in 1945 and the strength shown to stand up before the TUC in 1996 and tell them clause 4 was history and Labour wouldn't be tied to anyone .

It's to be seen whether the party has that kind of strength whether you agreed with them or not but that is what will be required in my opinion .

[Ldr]

As always the voice of reason Tyke, I couldnt disagree with any of that

[EasyforDennis]

We are currently in a situation where we have as PM the spoilt child who has always been able to have whatever he wanted. He has got the job he always wanted but now he cannot do it. When he cannot get his own way he throws tantrums (each Wednesday at PMQ's). I am convinced he no longer wants to be PM and is just waiting for the push from the 1922 gang. I just wonder how long it will be before they put him out of his misery.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Guardian not being behind a paywall is probably as much a reason it gets quoted regularly on here as anything else.

Precisely.

There are frequently articles in The Times or Telegraph that I would like to read, but they are paywalled.

Of the non-paywalled major papers (Mail, Express, Guardian, Sun, Mirror) who are you most likely to trust as honestly presenting the facts?

[River Don]

The starting point is affordable housing , for want of a better word , slum clearance , the younger people on very average and non too secure jobs are crying out for affordable new housing , there are vast areas in this country that need demolishing , Barnsley has them , Doncaster , Rotherham and across the UK .

This is the kind of policy that requires strength of conviction but cuts through ,

It's really not so long since the terraced houses of Nottinghill were considered slums. Now they are some of the most expensive properties in the country.

Many of the terraced houses in the North are actually pretty well built, compared to more contemporary construction. We live in a 70s property and my Mum always says "it's that cardboard house". I know what she means.

Anyway, it's not just a matter of clearing old buildings but looking how they are used.

[tyke1962]

We are currently in a situation where we have as PM the spoilt child who has always been able to have whatever he wanted. He has got the job he always wanted but now he cannot do it. When he cannot get his own way he throws tantrums (each Wednesday at PMQ's). I am convinced he no longer wants to be PM and is just waiting for the push from the 1922 gang. I just wonder how long it will be before they put him out of his misery.

I take the point the Tories could fall on their sword and clearly the latest polls suggest that .

However I want to see the Tories out of the game for decades which means Labour winning a GE rather than the present government losing one .

I'd even be prepared to have the Lib Dems amalgamated with the party , the Greens and the SNP although that would come at a price with another Scottish Referendum .

There's no guarantee that Scotland would vote for independence if the Labour Party hold office and this could play out very favourably in gaining its old Scottish vote back , Sturgeon isn't as popular up there as people are led to believe .

These are the kind of debates that need to take place to snatch the power back from the Tories and keep em out .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Think back to the mid 2000s.

Labour had been in power for a decade. The PM had lost popularity and gone. The new PM have the party a surge in popularity [1] and the party raced ahead in the polls.

Then a shock that no-one foresaw knocked the legs out from under the Govt. The Opposition didn't have any policy base as such, but people were tired of Labour and now they looked incompetent too, even though the scale of the shock hurt every country in the world and would have taxed any Govt.

The Opposition took over in the polls and Labour never had a chance of winning the next election.

The idea in that report that you cannot win power without "reconnecting with the voters" totally ignored the example of 2006-10. Cameron didn't "reconnect". He just took advantage of a Govt struggling with a crisis.

[1] Hard to remember now but Gordon Brown was hugely popular in 2007. When he replaced Blair, Labour's polling share went up by a quarter almost overnight.

[River Don]

The starting point is affordable housing , for want of a better word , slum clearance , the younger people on very average and non too secure jobs are crying out for affordable new housing , there are vast areas in this country that need demolishing , Barnsley has them , Doncaster , Rotherham and across the UK .

This is the kind of policy that requires strength of conviction but cuts through ,

It's really not so long since the terraced houses of Nottinghill were considered slums. Now they are some of the most expensive properties in the country.

Many of the terraced houses in the North are actually pretty well built, compared to more contemporary construction. We live in a 70s property and my Mum always says "it's that cardboard house". I know what she means.

Anyway, it's not just a matter of clearing old buildings but looking how they are used.

I liked what they did with these houses in Salford. Gentrification? Maybe but I still like them.

https://www.urbansplash.co.uk/regeneration/projects/chimney-pot-park

[DonnyOsmond]

You can tell from mediabiasfactcheck.com which ones are worth taking serious.

Factual
The Independant
Sky News
Financial Times
Reuters
BBC
The Times


The rest minus The Daily Mail are fairly mixed. The DM come out as factually quite low.

[tyke1962]

The starting point is affordable housing , for want of a better word , slum clearance , the younger people on very average and non too secure jobs are crying out for affordable new housing , there are vast areas in this country that need demolishing , Barnsley has them , Doncaster , Rotherham and across the UK .

This is the kind of policy that requires strength of conviction but cuts through ,

It's really not so long since the terraced houses of Nottinghill were considered slums. Now they are some of the most expensive properties in the country.

Many of the terraced houses in the North are actually pretty well built, compared to more contemporary construction. We live in a 70s property and my Mum always says "it's that cardboard house". I know what she means.

Anyway, it's not just a matter of clearing old buildings but looking how they are used.

If you take a walk behind the main drag in Goldthorpe that is the kind of area I'm highlighting .

Streets and streets of poor accommodation , mainly owned by poor landlords , drug infested shyte holes , unsociable behavior , crime ridden and ignored for decades .

This is 2020's version of the 1930's and these areas are 10 a penny in the north , midlands and areas of London .

Massively under invested communities and partly the reason Labour has lost it's heartlands because New Labour didn't give a shyte about them either .

There's a fantastic amount of revenue to be gained here for the economy in construction and the supply chains on this kind of scale .

[River Don]

I don't known Goldthorpe very well Tyke but I suspect the problem is in the poverty that breeds social depravation, not the buildings.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Think back to the mid 2000s.

Labour had been in power for a decade. The PM had lost popularity and gone. The new PM have the party a surge in popularity [1] and the party raced ahead in the polls.

Then a shock that no-one foresaw knocked the legs out from under the Govt. The Opposition didn't have any policy base as such, but people were tired of Labour and now they looked incompetent too, even though the scale of the shock hurt every country in the world and would have taxed any Govt.

The Opposition took over in the polls and Labour never had a chance of winning the next election.

The idea in that report that you cannot win power without "reconnecting with the voters" totally ignored the example of 2006-10. Cameron didn't "reconnect". He just took advantage of a Govt struggling with a crisis.

[1] Hard to remember now but Gordon Brown was hugely popular in 2007. When he replaced Blair, Labour's polling share went up by a quarter almost overnight.

The country doesn't need a Tory government Billy , they just convince the electorate that they do .

This One Nation Conservative narrative is for the fairies , the only One Nation debate is for the opposition if they can find the consensus to come together .

The Tories are tied to wealth and privilege , nothings changed for 300 years .

They want putting out for decades and forced to change if they ever want to get back in the game .

The time is ripe for such a thing to happen but it requires consensus and strength of conviction .

[tyke1962]

I don't known Goldthorpe very well Tyke but I suspect the problem is in the poverty that breeds social depravation, not the buildings.

I take that point Don , but the human mind works on demolishing things physically and replacing it with something better .

You put pride back in then the rest should follow .

I was brought up on a tough council estate myself , Barnsley Council did every home up on that estate and its reputation improved massively .

I've seen this work on a small scale .

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I don't known Goldthorpe very well Tyke but I suspect the problem is in the poverty that breeds social depravation, not the buildings.

I take that point Don , but the human mind works on demolishing things physically and replacing it with something better .

You put pride back in then the rest should follow .

I was brought up on a tough council estate myself , Barnsley Council did every home up on that estate and its reputation improved massively .

I've seen this work on a small scale .

You say that, I used to work with schools in Barnsley in a previous job.  The school in Goldthorpe was superb, well built, great facilities etc. Yet still it constantly got damaged or broken in to despite it being a far.cry from the kind of school I went to.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't known Goldthorpe very well Tyke but I suspect the problem is in the poverty that breeds social depravation, not the buildings.

I take that point Don , but the human mind works on demolishing things physically and replacing it with something better .

You put pride back in then the rest should follow .

I was brought up on a tough council estate myself , Barnsley Council did every home up on that estate and its reputation improved massively .

I've seen this work on a small scale .

You say that, I used to work with schools in Barnsley in a previous job.  The school in Goldthorpe was superb, well built, great facilities etc. Yet still it constantly got damaged or broken in to despite it being a far.cry from the kind of school I went to.

The place had been left to rot for 20 years before that school was built. It's the work of a generation or two to turn that round. The school is a part of that but not enough by itself.

[Ldr]

Parties dont win elections in this country, they lose them

[ravenrover]

When ever I played at Goldthorpe I couldn't get out quick enough after the game

[tyke1962]

Parties dont win elections in this country, they lose them

I agree with you to a certain extent Ldr but my main point is that Labour may well win the next election but in the grand scheme of things that's not nearly enough to change this country for the better .

What is required is  a minimum of the Tories sat on the opposition benches for at least 20 years , that's 6 election victories consecutively .

You aren't going to achieve that on your own , you need partners , even Blair went from a majority of 179 I believe down to 66 in 2005 .

The consensus amongst the opposition party's should be a collective keep the Tories out at all costs .

It sounds like pure ideology but just consider the damage the Tories have inflicted on this country since 1979 .

Policies to preserve great wealth and enhance great wealth and nothing more .

Even Cummings has told em they don't care about the people as misguided as he is , a broken watch tells the right time twice a day after all .

If this country is to come out of it's present position and prosper then the Tories need to be totally out of the game because once they get back in they will simply flip the country backwards again just as they have done since 2010 .

You would have thought after Blair we'd seen the last of the Eton and privilege brigade , I give you Cameron , Osborne , Johnson and Mogg .

[tyke1962]

When ever I played at Goldthorpe I couldn't get out quick enough after the game

It wasn't always so raven , rough and ready perhaps but it had a thriving local economy right up to the 90's .

On the main drag it had shop after shop , DC Cook had a huge motorbike showroom and a thriving local market ...... all gone now .

Wombwell is another similar place , these small towns within a town once thrived and I believe they can thrive again if the will and strength of conviction exists .

There's nothing in the middle these days , towns are either economically off the scale or they are deprived .

There's only the opposition who can level things up because never mind Johnson and his new voters , anyone who believes he has the nous or will to pull this off wants to give their head a shake .

The Tory donors don't pump millions in to the party to have Goldthorpe economically viable again that I do know .

[River Don]

I don't known Goldthorpe very well Tyke but I suspect the problem is in the poverty that breeds social depravation, not the buildings.

I take that point Don , but the human mind works on demolishing things physically and replacing it with something better .

You put pride back in then the rest should follow .

I was brought up on a tough council estate myself , Barnsley Council did every home up on that estate and its reputation improved massively .

I've seen this work on a small scale .

Trouble is I don't trust many developers to actually put up something better.

The real problem Goldthorpe still has is the pit shut down and nothing has provided enough decent employment since.

[tyke1962]

I don't known Goldthorpe very well Tyke but I suspect the problem is in the poverty that breeds social depravation, not the buildings.

I take that point Don , but the human mind works on demolishing things physically and replacing it with something better .

You put pride back in then the rest should follow .

I was brought up on a tough council estate myself , Barnsley Council did every home up on that estate and its reputation improved massively .

I've seen this work on a small scale .

Trouble is I don't trust many developers to actually put up something better.

The real problem Goldthorpe still has is the pit shut down and nothing has provided enough decent employment since.

That's because the country has been weaned off the need and replaced instead by profit .

There's plenty of development going off at the top end of the market .

The housing policy I'm putting forward is off the scale on a level this country hasn't seen since the late 40's and 50's .

Put that kind of policy forward on this kind of scale and you'll soon see the main players wanting a slice of the pie , the profit per dwelling may not match that of a waterfront development in Leeds but x that by millions of new homes and it becomes a different kettle of fish .

There's another aspect to this too , the normal house market prices will get a reset and that's well overdue in my opinion .

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I don't known Goldthorpe very well Tyke but I suspect the problem is in the poverty that breeds social depravation, not the buildings.

I take that point Don , but the human mind works on demolishing things physically and replacing it with something better .

You put pride back in then the rest should follow .

I was brought up on a tough council estate myself , Barnsley Council did every home up on that estate and its reputation improved massively .

I've seen this work on a small scale .

Trouble is I don't trust many developers to actually put up something better.

The real problem Goldthorpe still has is the pit shut down and nothing has provided enough decent employment since.

There's another aspect to this too , the normal house market prices will get a reset and that's well overdue in my opinion .

For some maybe, but not for those who have bought recently who will then have a hefty mortgage with negative equity - that cannot be allowed to happen.  As has been alluded to in other threads inflating out of the economic problems is reluctantly more sensible.

[bpoolrover]

When ever I played at Goldthorpe I couldn't get out quick enough after the game

It wasn't always so raven , rough and ready perhaps but it had a thriving local economy right up to the 90's .

On the main drag it had shop after shop , DC Cook had a huge motorbike showroom and a thriving local market ...... all gone now .

Wombwell is another similar place , these small towns within a town once thrived and I believe they can thrive again if the will and strength of conviction exists .

There's nothing in the middle these days , towns are either economically off the scale or they are deprived .

There's only the opposition who can level things up because never mind Johnson and his new voters , anyone who believes he has the nous or will to pull this off wants to give their head a shake .

The Tory donors don't pump millions in to the party to have Goldthorpe economically viable again that I do know . How would things improve for the town if labour were in power?

[River Don]

A lot of these problems are beyond the capability of any government to deal with I fear. They are a consequence of globalisation and global markets.

The deindustrialisation of Northern Britain has left long term deep intractable problems. It's not only the UK, there are deprived rust belt areas all over the western world.

[EasyforDennis]

When ever I played at Goldthorpe I couldn't get out quick enough after the game

It wasn't always so raven , rough and ready perhaps but it had a thriving local economy right up to the 90's .

On the main drag it had shop after shop , DC Cook had a huge motorbike showroom and a thriving local market ...... all gone now .

Wombwell is another similar place , these small towns within a town once thrived and I believe they can thrive again if the will and strength of conviction exists .

There's nothing in the middle these days , towns are either economically off the scale or they are deprived .

There's only the opposition who can level things up because never mind Johnson and his new voters , anyone who believes he has the nous or will to pull this off wants to give their head a shake .

The Tory donors don't pump millions in to the party to have Goldthorpe economically viable again that I do know . How would things improve for the town if labour were in power?

Talking of Wombwell and Goldthorpe many areas in the Dearne Valley have seen lots of improvements and job opportunities created as a result of EU funding. No doubt in years to come many of those residents of the area will come to regret voting for Brexit.