Rats/Ship

[Not Now Kato]

Reform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party?  If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole.
 
Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it.
 
https://www.britannica.com/topic/populism

Where is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t?

The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails.
 
But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net.  For example
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4w

[Sprotyrover]

Reform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party?  If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole.
 
Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it.
 
https://www.britannica.com/topic/populism

Where is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t?

The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails.
 
But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net.  For example
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4w

So you think a bunch of sooty students and Gays are voicing the concerns of German society as whole, the childish remark on the cardboard placard says it all!

[Not Now Kato]

Reform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party?  If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole.
 
Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it.
 
https://www.britannica.com/topic/populism

Where is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t?

The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails.
 
But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net.  For example
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4w

So you think a bunch of sooty students and Gays are voicing the concerns of German society as whole, the childish remark on the cardboard placard says it all!

So Walter, what do you know about how the Germans think?

[Sprotyrover]

Reform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party?  If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole.
 
Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it.
 
https://www.britannica.com/topic/populism

Where is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t?

The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails.
 
But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net.  For example
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4w

So you think a bunch of sooty students and Gays are voicing the concerns of German society as whole, the childish remark on the cardboard placard says it all!

So Walter, what do you know about how the Germans think?

I think you are childish for a start!
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/03/germany-shifts-to-the-right-with-anti-immigration-afd-ahead-in-polls.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS90uDEbJDI

[Donnywolf]

Reply to Mike_F #87

Agree Mike . I think Politics and Politicians are now totally exposed

The system / the MPs etc are not fitting the definition of Democratic any more , which is a government of the people, by the people and for the people.

We desperately need PR to make each vote fairer , not FPTP , and then that will boost the number of Seats won by Green Party Lib Dems so if 20 % of voters vote Green Party across the UK they get 20% of the Seats

That may encourage the missing 13 million people to Vote when they don't have the excuse " it won't make a difference how I vote" and it might just end extremism which we have seen from Govts of all colours in the past

However I'm sure Labour won't "go for it " if they get a Majority outright because they will want their turn to bat

They should put the Country first and give the people what they actually do want. 66% is my estimation but as usual I will check to try to prove that so don't slag me for that yet

[Donnywolf]

Highest I've found just over 50% with just 44% wanting to retain FPTP.

64% of Labour traditional voters votes in favour of PR of some sort

This is the opening of one PR Proposal by a County Council
Motion on proportional representation

In Europe, only the UK and Belarus still use the archaic single-round First past
the post (FPTP) for general elections. England also uses it for local elections.
Internationally, Proportional Representation (PR) is used to elect the
parliaments of more than 80 countries. These countries tend to be more
representative, more inclusive and greener.
PR ensures all votes count, have equal value and that seats won, match votes
cast. Under PR, MPs and Parliaments better reflect the age, gender and
characteristics of both local communities and of the nation.

[SydneyRover]

Have to agree, PR is appears to be the only way the UK will get the long term stabilisation so badly needed.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The key for a Tory Chancellor is to create conditions such as recession and inflation to enable the rich to buy cheap then sell at a profit. This has always been the case. Leaving or being thrown out after creating a catastrophe for the many, and a bumper harvest for the few, is simply part of the game.

[scawsby steve]

This thread is sadly indicative of the tribalist attitude and lack of nuance permeating society. If you're not in fabvour of X then you must be in favour of Y. You're speaking out against something, why aren't you speaking out against another? It's frustrating and infuriating.

I share Billy's contempt for the wilful mismanagement of the economy to benefit the few, not the many and the way the Conservative party have swung drastically to the right, shouting "look over here at the brown people on boats" while they dip into the working people's back pockets to feather then nests of their mates. And more so how so many hard-working lower or mid income people have lapped it up. The politics of hate and division backed up by a few "jam tomorrow" promises that are never kept.

I genuinely don't feel there's a party that fully represents my broadly centrist views but the nearest one is the Lib Dems of which I'm a member. If I had a lot more time on my hands I'd be more actively involved in trying to influence policy but pretty much the only recreational activity I have time for at the moment is following a godawful fourth division football team.

I'll be voting tactically in the next election to support whichever candidate to the left of the now almost comically right wing Tory party has the best chance of winning. Not because I hate the Conservative Party per-se but because I am appalled at what it has become and how it has utterly failed the nation whilst a select few have had their noses firmly in the trough.

Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?

It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The key for a Tory Chancellor is to create conditions such as recession and inflation to enable the rich to buy cheap then sell at a profit. This has always been the case. Leaving or being thrown out after creating a catastrophe for the many, and a bumper harvest for the few, is simply part of the game.

That sounds good, but businesses make more money when the economy is stable. not unstable, so a government deliberately creating instability in order to make businesspeople vote for them doesn't make sense.

[Mike_F]

Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?

It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.

I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.

Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.

Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.

Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.

[SydneyRover]

Hey Steve, get up, this is a good read.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?

It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.

I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.

Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.

Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.

Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.

For Christ's sake, don't criticise pensioners in here!

As for Clegg, he wasn't naive. He was simply unprincipled. He campaigned on being more economically left wing than Labour, then when the chance of a seat at the top table was offered, he enabled the most right wing batshit economics experiment since the 1930s. He justified that (and I shit you not) by saying he (him personally) had "changed his mind" in the last couple of days before the 2010 Election.

He now plays the role of Facebook's social conscience,while it's used to undermine democracies and enable genocide.

In a strong field, he's the third biggest Kitson in our politics over the past 20 years, behind Farage and Johnson.

[Not Now Kato]

Reform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party?  If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole.
 
Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it.
 
https://www.britannica.com/topic/populism

Where is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t?

The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails.
 
But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net.  For example
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4w

So you think a bunch of sooty students and Gays are voicing the concerns of German society as whole, the childish remark on the cardboard placard says it all!

So Walter, what do you know about how the Germans think?

I think you are childish for a start!
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/03/germany-shifts-to-the-right-with-anti-immigration-afd-ahead-in-polls.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS90uDEbJDI

And that is why people in Germany are protesting as they, quite rightly, see the dangers posed by the far right and their populist propaganda.
 
Given the number in the link you posted it would seem that over 75% of Germans don't support the far right!
 

[drfchound]

Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?

It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.

I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.

Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.

Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.

Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.

For Christ's sake, don't criticise pensioners in here!

As for Clegg, he wasn't naive. He was simply unprincipled. He campaigned on being more economically left wing than Labour, then when the chance of a seat at the top table was offered, he enabled the most right wing batshit economics experiment since the 1930s. He justified that (and I shit you not) by saying he (him personally) had "changed his mind" in the last couple of days before the 2010 Election.

He now plays the role of Facebook's social conscience,while it's used to undermine democracies and enable genocide.

In a strong field, he's the third biggest Kitson in our politics over the past 20 years, behind Farage and Johnson.

In my experience a high percentage of 50-70 years old women are not pensioners.

[Bentley Bullet]

Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?

It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.

I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.

Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.

Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.

Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.

For Christ's sake, don't criticise pensioners in here!

As for Clegg, he wasn't naive. He was simply unprincipled. He campaigned on being more economically left wing than Labour, then when the chance of a seat at the top table was offered, he enabled the most right wing batshit economics experiment since the 1930s. He justified that (and I shit you not) by saying he (him personally) had "changed his mind" in the last couple of days before the 2010 Election.

He now plays the role of Facebook's social conscience,while it's used to undermine democracies and enable genocide.

In a strong field, he's the third biggest Kitson in our politics over the past 20 years, behind Farage and Johnson.

What, even behind the bloke who sent us to war with Iraq, resulting in over 300,000 deaths?

[SydneyRover]

Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?

It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.

I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.

Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.

Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.

Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.

Confirmed

 ........... ''Council leaders in England have criticised Rishi Sunak for demanding that local authorities show “restraint” in putting up council tax bills, saying the government is to blame for underfunding ...........

 ........ He singled out for criticism those councils in England that are requesting permission to raise council tax by more than 5% as they look to balance their budgets amid a national crisis in local authority funding.

Sunak’s comments came despite the government this week granting permission to a number of councils to raise taxes by more than the 5% cap, including Thurrock, Woking, Slough and Birmingham. Ministers refused to allow Somerset to do the same, however, as council leaders there try to close a £100m budget deficit .......

............. The Guardian also revealed last month that officials in Michael Gove’s Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities had told councils they were expected to raise council tax by the maximum 4.99% in April, with some Tory officials concerned this could counteract the effect of national tax cuts promised in next month’s budget'' ..........

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/feb/09/local-authority-leaders-criticise-sunaks-demand-for-restrained-council-tax-rises

[ravenrover]

Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?

It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.

I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.

Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.

Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.

Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.

For Christ's sake, don't criticise pensioners in here!

As for Clegg, he wasn't naive. He was simply unprincipled. He campaigned on being more economically left wing than Labour, then when the chance of a seat at the top table was offered, he enabled the most right wing batshit economics experiment since the 1930s. He justified that (and I shit you not) by saying he (him personally) had "changed his mind" in the last couple of days before the 2010 Election.

He now plays the role of Facebook's social conscience,while it's used to undermine democracies and enable genocide.

In a strong field, he's the third biggest Kitson in our politics over the past 20 years, behind Farage and Johnson.

As my lovely Mother in law  who never really got involvrd in politics referred to him
Two faced Clegg