The Lords tax credit vote

[Filo]

It looks like Cameron and Gideon are stamping their feet like petulant little children now the Lords have voted down their tax credit cuts 😀

[Hounslowrover]

Why is no one asking the Tory spokespeople the simple question, why did Cameron lie before the election?  Cameron then tells us of his delight when the measure got through the Commons.  Are the BBC now so scared about their future that difficult questions are no longer asked of the Government?

[Filo]

When people argue Lords have no mandate to refuse govt’s plans to cut tax credits, remember the govt, who lied, had no mandate to cut them.

[wilts rover]

It's taken a Civil War and a time period of over 370 years for the House of Lords to become more in touch with public opinion than the House of Commons. Whatever will we see next, peace in Ireland?

[i_ateallthepies]

Not sure what they lied about Filo, they went into the election telling us they were going to take 12bn out of the welfare budget.  I'm just baffled that there are enough idiots in this country to vote them in knowing that.

There was a report on news last week showing an excerpt from the previous night's question time when a member of the audience supposedly gave the government spokes person a mauling for the tax credit's change.  It showed here brief 'rant' which she began with 'I voted conservative'... I was only amazed that nobody bothered to point out to her that she is going to get exactly what she f**king asked for.

[jucyberry]

Cameron was extremely sly, from what I remember he made a point of saying he wouldn't be altering CHILD tax credits, daft folk who then voted for him believing he wouldn't touch the WTC element either.. Or perhaps only heard what he wanted them to hear...

This wasn't about cutting, this was about totally obliterating tax credits. The threshold proposed was so low that the cut off point would have been around £80 per week. I'm glad the other place gave Gidieot a bloody nose, it makes a change, usually his snout is covered in the white stuff.

[RedJ]

Funny how they're seemingly big fans of the Lords until they can't get their own way.

[idler]

No doubt the new year's honours list will include a number of right wing peers.

[BobG]

You know what else I don't understand? I keep on hearing Osborn and all those other creatures telling me, every day of the week, that 'the country can't afford....'.

Ok. So let's assume that's true for a second. Why, then, are we spending 100 billion quid on a replacement for Trident? What effing good is that ever going to do anyone - even if Putin does send the tanks rolling across the North German plain?  And if it is true, what the devil is everyone doing so badly wrong that the 6th or 7th richest country in the world can't afford to look after the folk who suffer from the fact that no damn government for 20 odd years has had the balls or the inclination to make employers pay their workers a living wage?

Why don't they raise the rate of tax for a couple of years????
Why don't they bin Trident?
Why don't they tax the companies and people who have creamed off the profits this country has made this past 25 years?

And you know the worst thing of all? That there's an awful lot of people who actually believe this shite that 'We can't afford it'. Jesus! Whatever happened to education?

And now, of course, because the Lords have had the temerity to interfere, our wonderfful government has a heaven sent opportunity to reinforce, in spades, the creation of virtually a one party state that the Labour Party so recently gift wrapped. If I was Osborn or that jerk in No 10, I'd be rubbing my hands with glee today. The Lords have given them a gift as priceless as the one Corbyn handed them.
 
BobG

PS Notice the rapidity with which the government has chosen to set up a 'review' of the relationship vbetween the two houses of parliament? How many times can you remember this government, any government, acting with such indecent haste? Fingers of one hand? Less? So why the haste? Clearly, because there is political advantage in it. And that advantage has to be to introduce some lovely Tory friendly new rules while the issue is still resonating across the country. Propaganda is easy while the subject is topical. I reckon this 'review' will report fast, and it's recommendations will rush through without anyone having the time to draw breath.  The Express and the Mail, of course, will dutifully, day after day, explain how it's all for our own good.

[swintonrover]

How do they have any right to launch an enquiry? The House of Lords have had their say, and there's jack shit Gideon can do about it. Oh wait, let's change it so he gets his own way to the detriment of the British people. Surely there has to be a system in place to prevent this? As soon as that enquiry was launched, there should have been a means enacted that removes Cameron and Osborne from Parliament. I don't care if you write the laws, you should not be able to alter them for your own personal interests.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What's not been said is that the Lords have only delayed this measure. They cannot stop it if it's reintroduced, goes through the Commons again and is then put before them again. It's been that way for over a hundred years so it can't be that unconstitutional.

Then again, perhaps there hasn't been a government who's put something so shitty under the noses of the Lords before.

[idler]

The annoying thing is that with all of the hypocritical goings on in politics then if this had happened when a Labour government was in office the tories would have been pompously bigging  the Lords decision up.
It's hard to have respect for politicians of any party.

[jonrover]

You know what else I don't understand? I keep on hearing Osborn and all those other creatures telling me, every day of the week, that 'the country can't afford....'.

Ok. So let's assume that's true for a second. Why, then, are we spending 100 billion quid on a replacement for Trident? What effing good is that ever going to do anyone - even if Putin does send the tanks rolling across the North German plain?  And if it is true, what the devil is everyone doing so badly wrong that the 6th or 7th richest country in the world can't afford to look after the folk who suffer from the fact that no damn government for 20 odd years has had the balls or the inclination to make employers pay their workers a living wage?

Why don't they raise the rate of tax for a couple of years????
Why don't they bin Trident?
Why don't they tax the companies and people who have creamed off the profits this country has made this past 25 years?

And you know the worst thing of all? That there's an awful lot of people who actually believe this shite that 'We can't afford it'. Jesus! Whatever happened to education?

And now, of course, because the Lords have had the temerity to interfere, our wonderfful government has a heaven sent opportunity to reinforce, in spades, the creation of virtually a one party state that the Labour Party so recently gift wrapped. If I was Osborn or that jerk in No 10, I'd be rubbing my hands with glee today. The Lords have given them a gift as priceless as the one Corbyn handed them.
 
BobG

PS Notice the rapidity with which the government has chosen to set up a 'review' of the relationship vbetween the two houses of parliament? How many times can you remember this government, any government, acting with such indecent haste? Fingers of one hand? Less? So why the haste? Clearly, because there is political advantage in it. And that advantage has to be to introduce some lovely Tory friendly new rules while the issue is still resonating across the country. Propaganda is easy while the subject is topical. I reckon this 'review' will report fast, and it's recommendations will rush through without anyone having the time to draw breath.  The Express and the Mail, of course, will dutifully, day after day, explain how it's all for our own good.

Why don't they bin Trident? The same nuclear weapon that a majority of the electorate want to keep? The same weapon Corbyn has campaigned against for his entire political career? The same weapon that will cost closer to £165 Billion to keep in working order? The same weapon the other three blairite stooges wanted to keep?

Sounds like your as much as a Corbynite than you dare admit Bob.

[wilts rover]

Jonrover

That's interesting, I didn't know there had been a vote on whether or not to keep Trident, certainly no-one asked me, where can I find the results?

It's obviously not this poll in the Independent done just before the election which votes to scrap it
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/trident-debate-there-are-16000-nuclear-missiles-in-the-world-but-who-has-them-and-does-britain-10164387.html

[BobG]

Thank you Jon. I await your reasons for thinking a hundred billion pounds spent on offensive first strike (and second strike of course) nuclear missiles, to replace Trident, is a good idea.

Whether or not I like, love, shag or detest Corbyn is entirely irrelevant. The question under discussion is whether or not this country can afford to pay tax credits. I have offered a solution. You are free to disagree with it if you like. But you have offered nothing as an alternative. Instead you offer a personal attack whilst getting the majority of your facts totally wrong. Now why would you be bothered to show yourself up like that I wonder...?

Cheers

BobG

[jucyberry]

Well I can't remember being asked if I want Trident either..

 I don't.

What is the point? Let's face it, if we get bombed it's over, what good is it having Trident, Retaliation? If we fire first we would end up being nuked anyway..

 Either way if the crazies with their fingers on the red buttons push them the world is f**ked. It won't be a world I would want my children and myself to survive in.

That money could do so much good, for the NHS, for building affordable homes, for schools and for the infrastructure..

[jonrover]

Spending 165 billion on nuclear weapons we will never use is totally wrong. I have said before on this forum renewing them is a ridiculous waste of money. So, which facts have I got wrong? (I'll not bother posting a link to the new increased cost which came out very recently unless I have to appease you.) And for the record, I'd just collect the £120 billion a year we don't collect in tax revenue as a starter....along with the savings by scrapping a weapon of mass destruction we aren't in control of any way as Washington will have the final say as to whether we can press the button or not.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/07/16/public-support-nuclear-weapons/

[jonrover]

And Wilts, I agree, we should have a referendum on the question of trident.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Newsnight on Monday was illuminating. Tim Montgomery who is close to the core of the Tory party was on. Said that Osborne had got out of trouble through the Lords vote. He had miscalculated how much anger there would be when it turned out that the "Welfare Scroungers" being hit first were actually people who work damn hard for a pittance and need the tax credits to makes ends meet. He said that the Lords vote gave him a chance to quietly shelve the plan.

Evan Davies asked Montgomery how on earth the Tories, back in April before the Election, thought they could save the claimed £12bn off the Welfare bill without hitting hard working people. Why they had allowed themselves to push the line that Wrlfare was all about the layabout Scroungers over the road who has never worked? When they knew that the numbers couldn't possibly stack up without hitting people putting in a 45 hour week on the minimum wage?

TM was disarmingly honest. He said (as some of us knew at the time) that Osborne knew he couldn't make that scale of saving. He put that figure forward purely to paint Labour as spendthrift by comparison. And, crucially, they never expected to win in May. So they expected at best to have their plans watered down to something sensible in coalition talks. Now Osborne is finding that he's held hostage by these stupid promises.

To anyone who thinks that all politicians are bas**rds who only look after their own interests, consider this. By far the best thing for Labour to have done on Monday was NOT to vote down the Tax Credits cuts. Let it pass. Let people suffer. Let people realise the consequences of voting in the Tories. Apparently there are SEVENTY Tory MPs whose majority in May was smaller than the number of people who would have lost because of the TC cuts. That would have been a godsend for Labour.

Instead, Labour did what a principled Opposition should do. They protected the weakest from the worst excesses of the Govt. And in doing so, they dug the Govt out of a stupid hole of its own making. I wonder if the Electorate will thank Labour for it?

[essexrover]

Funny how they're seemingly big fans of the Lords until they can't get their own way.

My thoughts exactly !