Disorder in Knowsley

[ncRover]

Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.

Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Exactly TT.

Attlee inherited a national debt of 250% of GDP, and got it down to 185% within 6 years, through Keysenian management of the economy and getting industry firing.



Whereas after WWI, under the Tories we first had eye watering Austerity and the accompanying 20% unemployment in an attempt to grind down the national debt followed by the catastrophic decision to rejoin the Gold Standard at $4.86, which wiped out much of our exporting economy.  The Tories (Lloyd George was PM but it was a Tory Govt) had a national debt of 150% of GDP in 1920. By 1933, after a decade of grim Austerity, it was up to 190%.

Cameron made precisely the same horrible mistake in 2010. And STILL some folk automatically think the Tories are better at managing the economy than Labour. It's a weird, quasi-religious belief.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The USA had, by it's standards, a hugely interventionist Govt from 1936 onwards. They were the first in the World to introduce Keynesianism.

Japan and South Korea were rebooted by massive investment from occupying military forces and bear no resemblance at all to the UK experience.

I don't say this because I support Labour. I support Labour because they have a consistently better economic track record than the Tories. The Attlee Govt in particular, the most left wing one we've ever had, is held up by professional economists as having done an excellent job.

[tommy toes]

Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.

Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.

A more recent example, would have been Gordon Brown, who's economic ideas were adopted by other countries to lead them out of the crash of 2008, but hey let's elect Cameron and Osborne instead, to strangle us with Austerity in some half arsed plan 'to balance' the books.'

[wilts rover]

Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.

Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.

A more recent example, would have been Gordon Brown, who's economic ideas were adopted by other countries to lead them out of the crash of 2008, but hey let's elect Cameron and Osborne instead, to strangle us with Austerity in some half arsed idea of 'balancing the books.'

Which they never actually had any intention of doing unless it was a by-product of their idealogical obsession to have lower taxes for the rich & reduce public services for the rest of us.

See previous posts about Tory controlled media and how they fooled the country into thinking one thing was happening - knowing full well it wasn't but was a cover for something entirely different.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Osborne (guided by his then economic adviser, one Matt Hancock) insisted that the idea of expansionary fiscal contraction [1] was the way to grow the economy.

There has never been a claptrap economic idea more roundly demolished by facts. But we went full on for it in 2010. And that, followed by the Brexit vote, is the reason why the 2010s saw the longest stagnation of wages since the Napoleonic Wars.

[1] We've known since the 1930s when Keynes developed his ideas, that the most important thing a Govt can do after a bad recession is to borrow and spend to keep the economy ticking over. Then, once private industry is up and running again, Govt can rein in its spending and raise taxes to pay back the debt.

Expansionary fiscal contraction was the batshit idea that the way to grow the economy was to cut Govt spending hard and quickly. Apparently this would show business that the Govt was hard headed and would control the debt, thus encouraging them to invest.

It had zero theoretical or practical backing. But we did it anyway. And it failed spectacularly.

And some folk still insist that the Tories understand how to run the economy.

[SydneyRover]

Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.

Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.

A more recent example, would have been Gordon Brown, who's economic ideas were adopted by other countries to lead them out of the crash of 2008, but hey let's elect Cameron and Osborne instead, to strangle us with Austerity in some half arsed plan 'to balance' the books.'

Oz labor did the same/followed suit very closely and was rounded on by the liberals.

[ncRover]

Like I’ve said before global economic events and the fallout were wrong to be blamed on Brown.

What economic philosophy was playing out in 1970s Britain?

What is left and right changes with the times. To go back to the models of the 20s and 30s would seem like extreme libertarianism/anarchism now and no one is calling for that.

Look at the G7 countries now. How many have been influenced by the economic readings of say Friedman and Hayek over Keynes in the last 50 years?

I think it’s disingenuous to say anything right of centre economically doesn’t work or soon descends in to nationalism without that. The US is built on immigration and champions it. Western countries have progressed so much in the last 50 years.

The vast amount of tech innovation has come from the US and Japan, why is that? Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Panasonic etc have done more to improve the lives of poor people than any left-wing figure in the last 50 years has.

As much as fossil-fuel companies are vilified by the left, they have made the G7 countries rich enough to start looking at greener energy.

Free market capitalism drives innovation and increasing efficiency within sectors and markets. It also helps to lift people out of poverty.

[wilts rover]

What is right and left changes over time! What a load of rubbish.

Wealth creation for society lifts people out of poverty. Free market capitalism drove millions into poverty in Victorian Britain and now again in post-Brexit UK.

[ncRover]

What is right and left changes over time! What a load of rubbish.

Wealth creation for society lifts people out of poverty. Free market capitalism drove millions into poverty in Victorian Britain and now again in post-Brexit UK.

I’m not talking about Victorian Britain am I?

Well yes it does? It is relative to what is the status quo. Much like what is centrist economically would be radically left in the USA.

Yes wealth creation does that, you’re right. See my examples above.

You genuinely think that free market capitalism makes people poorer, seriously? Argue my points I made there perhaps and I’ll entertain the idea.

Also can you come up with an alternative to help African countries develop? Botswana developing the quickest as an economy right now, not exactly socialism happening there is it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

NC

I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.

I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn  in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.

You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".

[ncRover]

NC

I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.

I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn  in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.

You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".

Yes the tories need to come up with an economic plan and vision that has optimism and prosperity at its heart. You’ve got to spend money to make money, and I guess that also depends on the timing. But most of that doesn’t have to come from the government, but in allowing the environment for business to flourish. We have to remember the shocks of Brexit, Covid and Ukraine.

Saying that, the focus on debt post-08 will have lead to stagnation. I’m not here to be a cheerleader on everything the tories do, their time is up and it’s time for someone else to have a go.

Economically I’m speaking more in ideas, and the idea that free market capitalism creates poverty from wilts is just plain false. I like the quote “if you secretly despise wealth, it will evade you”. The left let’s this creep in and it concerns me.

[SydneyRover]

Free market capitalism unrestrained creates inequality.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nc.

At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.

We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.

We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.

We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.

By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.

There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.

[wilts rover]

What is right and left changes over time! What a load of rubbish.

Wealth creation for society lifts people out of poverty. Free market capitalism drove millions into poverty in Victorian Britain and now again in post-Brexit UK.

I’m not talking about Victorian Britain am I?

Well yes it does? It is relative to what is the status quo. Much like what is centrist economically would be radically left in the USA.

Yes wealth creation does that, you’re right. See my examples above.

You genuinely think that free market capitalism makes people poorer, seriously? Argue my points I made there perhaps and I’ll entertain the idea.

Also can you come up with an alternative to help African countries develop? Botswana developing the quickest as an economy right now, not exactly socialism happening there is it?

You introduced free market capitalism and said it reduced poverty. Dont blame me if I come up with examples of free market capitalism creating poverty.

Africa has been exploited by free market capitalists stealing its wealth for 400 years. Bit rich to say it is now the solution to what it has caused.

Re-distribution of wealth is always the answer to ending poverty. How and to whom will vary depending on the time and place. You can have a revolution where the mass of people take it from the rich (such as the owners of the Botswana diamond mines), or a social democratic one that has a fair taxation system to spread that wealth across the population via public services.

[wilts rover]

Some reading for you

https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/how-free-markets-hurt-people-and-planet-76309a8f7d42

[BillyStubbsTears]

NC

I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.

I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn  in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.

You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".

Yes the tories need to come up with an economic plan and vision that has optimism and prosperity at its heart. You’ve got to spend money to make money, and I guess that also depends on the timing. But most of that doesn’t have to come from the government, but in allowing the environment for business to flourish. We have to remember the shocks of Brexit, Covid and Ukraine.

Saying that, the focus on debt post-08 will have lead to stagnation. I’m not here to be a cheerleader on everything the tories do, their time is up and it’s time for someone else to have a go.

Economically I’m speaking more in ideas, and the idea that free market capitalism creates poverty from wilts is just plain false. I like the quote “if you secretly despise wealth, it will evade you”. The left let’s this creep in and it concerns me.

I challenge you to find any serious figure on the Left who despises wealth.

You are committing the common error of the critics of the Left - conflating a dislike of unequal spread of wealth with a dislike of wealth itself.

I personally want us to be much wealthier as a country. I also want that wealth to be better and more equitably spread. The two are not mutually incompatible. In fact economic history suggests that higher overall growth occurs in eras when the proceeds of growth are more evenly spread.

[danumdon]

NC

I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.

I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn  in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.

You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".

Yes the tories need to come up with an economic plan and vision that has optimism and prosperity at its heart. You’ve got to spend money to make money, and I guess that also depends on the timing. But most of that doesn’t have to come from the government, but in allowing the environment for business to flourish. We have to remember the shocks of Brexit, Covid and Ukraine.

Saying that, the focus on debt post-08 will have lead to stagnation. I’m not here to be a cheerleader on everything the tories do, their time is up and it’s time for someone else to have a go.

Economically I’m speaking more in ideas, and the idea that free market capitalism creates poverty from wilts is just plain false. I like the quote “if you secretly despise wealth, it will evade you”. The left let’s this creep in and it concerns me.

I challenge you to find any serious figure on the Left who despises wealth.

You are committing the common error of the critics of the Left - conflating a dislike of unequal spread of wealth with a dislike of wealth itself.

I personally want us to be much wealthier as a country. I also want that wealth to be better and more equitably spread. The two are not mutually incompatible. In fact economic history suggests that higher overall growth occurs in eras when the proceeds of growth are more evenly spread.

I believe most people will agree with your opinion and that we all wish the country to be much wealthier and also that its spread among the population more equally and better.

The parting of the ways comes when it gets down to how that equality and spread is created. Some will not like the fact that individuals are given something for nothing, is it the correct thing to do to give to some what takes others a whole week of blood sweat and tears to achieve? would it be a right thing to do for the latter to become just like the former?

Should we be gifting people with nothing something? yes we should, should we be gifting them in some cases a great deal more than what others have to work two or three jobs to achieve?

Should we be ensuring that taxes are collected in  a manner that is fair and equitable to all, yes we should, should we be allowing the top 1% to avoid their fair share? of course not.

Do we currently have a model of revenue collection that's' fit for purpose, of course not, will we get one that is on the arrival of a Labour government, i have grave doubts. did we have one during the last Labour administration?

Can anyone else see a recurring issue here?

[ncRover]

Some reading for you

https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/how-free-markets-hurt-people-and-planet-76309a8f7d42

This opinion piece lost me at “neoliberals believe all immigration should be illegal”

[ncRover]

Nc.

At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.

We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.

We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.

We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.

By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.

There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.

This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.

https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/

[ncRover]

Back to the original topic.

Every constituency in the UK on average believes that immigration is too high bar Bristol West.

https://britain.unherd.com/immigration/

There needs to be better messaging on the pros of immigration rather than talking down to people with concerns. The Knowsley bunch deserve contempt though.

[wilts rover]

Nc.

At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.

We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.

We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.

We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.

By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.

There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.

This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.

https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/

It is for those metrics. But I have no idea what it has do with a critique on capitalism or right-wing extremists fire-bombing a police van during anti-immigration protests.

Were these anti-immigration protestors neo-liberal (capitalists) or not btw?

[ncRover]

Nc.

At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.

We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.

We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.

We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.

By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.

There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.

This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.

https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/

It is for those metrics. But I have no idea what it has do with a critique on capitalism or right-wing extremists fire-bombing a police van during anti-immigration protests.

Were these anti-immigration protestors neo-liberal (capitalists) or not btw?

It started out just picking BST’s brain really, I went off topic.

Who knows? But I think they’re a set of horrible tw*ts in the same way that you do.

[wilts rover]

Unherd!! A right-wing populist website, founded by the author of Conservative Home (and later advisor to Johnson) to push right-wing propoganda now run by the ex-editor of the Daily Telegraph and staffed entirely by right-wing 'journalists'. And you expect to be taken seriously!

You vote for the fasc you get fascism.

https://bylinetimes.com/2022/12/07/red-tory-to-blue-labour-how-spiked-and-unherd-are-keeping-national-populism-alive/

[wilts rover]

Nc.

At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.

We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.

We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.

We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.

By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.

There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.

This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.

https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/

It is for those metrics. But I have no idea what it has do with a critique on capitalism or right-wing extremists fire-bombing a police van during anti-immigration protests.

Were these anti-immigration protestors neo-liberal (capitalists) or not btw?

It started out just picking BST’s brain really, I went off topic.

Who knows? But I think they’re a set of horrible tw*ts in the same way that you do.

I agree entirely with you. But I am afraid you have missed the connections I have put down in my posts on this topic. These people got their ideas immigrants & refugees were bad from somewhere. Then you posted a piece from Unherd - whose mission is to do exactly that - encourage people to hate one another so as to create a narrative for them to hold onto power & wealth.

[ncRover]

Unherd!! A right-wing populist website, founded by the author of Conservative Home (and later advisor to Johnson) to push right-wing propoganda now run by the ex-editor of the Daily Telegraph and staffed entirely by right-wing 'journalists'. And you expect to be taken seriously!

You vote for the fasc you get fascism.

https://bylinetimes.com/2022/12/07/red-tory-to-blue-labour-how-spiked-and-unherd-are-keeping-national-populism-alive/

It’s a poll on the UK general public. My take on which is probably similar to yours.

Strange man.

[wilts rover]

In a poll of the general public done by a proper polling company - only 28% say immigration is a concern.

So you work out how 28% countrywide can be a majority everywhere apart from Bristol West? It ain't that big.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/886366/issues-facing-britain/

[tyke1962]

In a poll of the general public done by a proper polling company - only 28% say immigration is a concern.

So you work out how 28% countrywide can be a majority everywhere apart from Bristol West? It ain't that big.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/886366/issues-facing-britain/

And in the same poll only 20% believe Brexit to be a concern too .

[BillyStubbsTears]

In a poll of the general public done by a proper polling company - only 28% say immigration is a concern.

So you work out how 28% countrywide can be a majority everywhere apart from Bristol West? It ain't that big.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/886366/issues-facing-britain/

And in the same poll only 20% believe Brexit to be a concern too .

Well aye. You got it done didn't you?

You, Johnson, Give, Rees-Mogg and Farage.

You got it done.

[BillyStubbsTears]

At the risk of sounding like an old guy, there's something about the left-right balance of politics that young people don't get, because they have only lived in the current era. It's this.

It's not always been like this.

You have lived in an era where the Overton Window has been way over to the right. You've been told relentlessly that anything to the Left of that is a dangerous gamble and that left wing socio-economic  ideas don't work.

It's not always been like that.

60 years ago, the balance was much further to the Left. And, broadly, it worked.

Thatcher brought an absolute revolutionq that tipped all that up. And like all successful revolutionaries, her side rewrote history so that everything before her now is automatically assumed to be awful.

It wasn't like that.

This person gets it.

https://twitter.com/oldtrotter/status/1629402327277862917?s=20