North Stand

[roversdude]

Something else to bear in mind.

When we won this division in 03/04, at a time when we were full of drive and optimism, our average attendance was under 7000.

We've topped that this year, even though we've been in the bottom 6 for the majority of the season.

Plus, in 03/04, we had a lot of local derbies. Hull, Huddersfield, Scunthorpe, Mansfield, Lincoln, York. Nothing like that this year. EDIT. On second thoughts, I'm maybe overplaying this a bit. I was only thinking of Bradford and Mansfield. I forgot Notts C, Grimsby, Stockport and Wrexham all bringing good away followings.

I know the counter argument. That was in OBV. But that's part of the point. Over the last decade and a half, we've had a generation of new supporters who have joined us in a modern stadium, with, generally, decent, successful, high-ish level football being served up. That's a generation that is secured for the long haul, whereas when we last made the Championship, we were still coming out of 50 years of failure and low interest in the town.

Note that, even when we spent nearly all of 16/17 in the top 5 of this division, we only just topped 6000 as an average.

This year's, and even last year's attendances indicate that something has changed. There's a bigger bedrock of loyal fans than we've had in my lifetime now.

I suspect that if we did become established in the Championship (big if) we'd be selling out the home tickets pretty much every week.

Worth pondering in terms of what the potential fanbase now is.

Agree with most of that BST with the exception of Stockports following this season

[roversdude]

It does feel a bit different this time for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on, and it's not just because we're doing well.

There seems to be a genuine ground swell of interest in the club across the city.

I feel were going to see attendances increasing quite regularly.

Whether that justifies expanding the stadium, time will tell.

Yep Gavin and TB have done a cracking job that is now bearing fruit on the pitch

[WheatleyRover]

For my understanding the original design images showed the East Stand as a two tier stand, had a floating roof. Then went for a cheaper build, I'm sure the sign outside the ground when it was being built where the xp school now is said it was expandable to 20k.

The pins are a myth. There's no hidden footings beyond the current permiter.

The design which was very much similar to the KC stadium, would indeed have had two tiers on one side, with scope to add a second tier on the opposite side.

Unfortunately, due to delays including 'Greater crested newt gate', the costs for steel had risen significantly, so the choice was to either go back to the council cabinet to seek approval for the additional costs (Not certain that would have been approved) or take the original budget and compromise on the build, so we ended up going back to the architects to redesign to what we have now. I think the original capacity was around 18,500 with scope to increase to around 21,000.

The footings for the current stadium are different to what the original would have been, so no provision was made for expansion. Yes, we could expand it, but like anything else, it's at what cost.

Being totally honest, hindsight has proven the stadium we ended up with has suited us better with more modest capacity whilst still giving us access to other showcase matches and events.

I didn't mention anything about pins, I'm stating what the construction sign said outside the ground when it was being built, it said expandable to 20,000.

[TonySoprano]

They are proper shit I know but Rotherham have been getting average gates of 10,500 this season. Their last three seasons in the Championship have been between 9,800 and 10,500.

Would we get much more at that level? Building a new stand is not going to be required for probably another generation at least barring any oil money or gormless Hollywood types.

Think with GM at the helm we would ave 12.000+ assuming we were not losing every week.

In living memory we have had five seasons in the Championship:

2008/9 - ave gates of 10,964
2009/10 - ave gates of 10,992
2010/11 - ave gates of 10,258
2011/12 - ave gates of 9,341
2013/14 - ave gates of 9,110

Little evidence we can turn out 12,000 plus gates.

08/09 was 11964

That’s correct, it was 11,964.

Even though that was for several months a very poor season, and we ended in a lower position than the next season, being back at that level for first time in 50 years probably inflated gates artificially. The following season 09/10 was a better one in terms of points and league placing and we had Billy Sharp, yet gates dropped off by 1,000.

There was a jump in the cost of match tickets, and we sold Mills and wellens, that was the biggest factor in the drop off.

The fan base is ALOT bigger now.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

For my understanding the original design images showed the East Stand as a two tier stand, had a floating roof. Then went for a cheaper build, I'm sure the sign outside the ground when it was being built where the xp school now is said it was expandable to 20k.

The pins are a myth. There's no hidden footings beyond the current permiter.

The design which was very much similar to the KC stadium, would indeed have had two tiers on one side, with scope to add a second tier on the opposite side.

Unfortunately, due to delays including 'Greater crested newt gate', the costs for steel had risen significantly, so the choice was to either go back to the council cabinet to seek approval for the additional costs (Not certain that would have been approved) or take the original budget and compromise on the build, so we ended up going back to the architects to redesign to what we have now. I think the original capacity was around 18,500 with scope to increase to around 21,000.

The footings for the current stadium are different to what the original would have been, so no provision was made for expansion. Yes, we could expand it, but like anything else, it's at what cost.

Being totally honest, hindsight has proven the stadium we ended up with has suited us better with more modest capacity whilst still giving us access to other showcase matches and events.

I didn't mention anything about pins, I'm stating what the construction sign said outside the ground when it was being built, it said expandable to 20,000.

I know you didn't, I was referring to earlier comments in the thread and, I was agreeing with you about the original design being expandable.

[donnievic]

Our section of the North stand is fully sold out as of about 40 mins ago.

Don’t know how much segregation there is but it should be over 14.000 gate. Possibly 14.500 assuming Crewe have sold all their 1.589 seats, which they may not have?

Ok Let's try and work this out. Max capacity is 14978 I think.

We lose a couple of hundred in the South to facilitate unreserved seating.

We lose a chunk for segregation.

Crewe are in an area of the North that can accommodate @ 2,200 so that's 600 empty although some of that might be the buffer zone for segregation. Call it 300 for segregation then plus the other block with the seat backs missing @250?

I reckon 1,100 short of capacity so 13878 of which 1589 Crewe = 12,289 Rovers fans!!

Can we be louder than the Barrow game?

Have I missed owt?

think capacity is way below that now with segregation either side and the loss of seats when we put the scoreboard in,even the south stand o believe can’t be south out with it being unreserved seating,I’m guessing at just over 14,000 mark plus I don’t think Crewe will sell out,I’m going for 13,600

[colincramb]

We might as well bin the screen off and put the seats back. It hasn’t worked properly for ages

[i_ateallthepies]

Still works for advertising.

[GazLaz]

Which screen doesn’t work? The big one?? It does doesn’t it? Or are you on about for replays?

[DonnyOsmond]

The fact we're going to be comfortably beating the Charlton home leg attendance is pretty interesting. That was a semi final in the division above against a much bigger club.

Has the fan base grown over the last 5 years? I do agree though there seems to be a real buzz about it at the minute. It's great. Keep McCann and we could be in for an exciting rise.

Think it's the recent form that's doing it. In that season we were inconsistent towards the end, the same as Crewe this season who struggled selling tickets for their home game and are struggling to sell a couple thousand for the away game.

The only other explanation now is that we're just MASSIVE.

[silent majority]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

[TonySoprano]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

[GazLaz]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

A proper safe standing setup is very expensive. Manchester City were going to implement it on their new north stand development but scrapped it due to lack of demand.

[silent majority]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

A proper safe standing setup is very expensive. Manchester City were going to implement it on their new north stand development but scrapped it due to lack of demand.

Yes, I'm aware of the costs. But it is happening in most new developments in the larger EPL and Championship grounds. However the cheaper option, as I mentioned, is just to add rails to the existing seating areas. That's what Burnley have done to great effect whereas Liverpool are bringing in fully fledged rail seats, same as Spurs, and the same for Everton in their new stadium.

When building anew the cost isn't that much greater, but if renewing or renovating then it can be prohibitive.

[silent majority]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

[colincramb]

Which screen doesn’t work? The big one?? It does doesn’t it? Or are you on about for replays?

Yeah doesn’t show replays or highlights. I know it still advertises things, but surely its main purpose is to provide replays of key events to the fans. What’s the point of having it otherwise?

[Chris Black come back]

Doesn’t show highlights or replays. Loads and loads of adverts though!

[ian1980]

Which screen doesn’t work? The big one?? It does doesn’t it? Or are you on about for replays?

Yeah doesn’t show replays or highlights. I know it still advertises things, but surely its main purpose is to provide replays of key events to the fans. What’s the point of having it otherwise?

Revenue from those who pay to advertise on it probably

[Superspy]

Which screen doesn’t work? The big one?? It does doesn’t it? Or are you on about for replays?

Yeah doesn’t show replays or highlights. I know it still advertises things, but surely its main purpose is to provide replays of key events to the fans. What’s the point of having it otherwise?

Surely you've answered your own question? Advertising.
It's an income stream (or at least you'd expect it to be). Getting rid of it and replacing it with more seats only makes sense if the club makes more money from the ticket sales of those seats than it does charging for advertising space on the screen....and realistically...if we were selling out every week to even be able to justify that point (needing more seats) then chances are the advertising rates would be higher anyway because of the increased attendances.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

As you'll remember from previous exchanges, I'm sceptical that this increase would be achievable simply. Apart from the basic area of terrace (which I don't think works - you were going to send me some calculations from the architect who was advising you years ago but I never got them), there's the issues of ingress and egress rates which I think would be very strained with the current set up if we increased the West stand capacity by 70%.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this - these are mainly hunches from my own professional background in this area.

[adamtherover]

Doesn’t show highlights or replays. Loads and loads of adverts though!

surely...   if you can project an advert onto there that works?, you can project a 10 second goal highlight video?..   unless its the video editing euipment/team, that are the issue, not the screen??

[Chris Black come back]

No idea, but if you want to focus attention on the adverts, the only time people look at the screen is when the replays are shown. So maybe show the replays…

[silent majority]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

As you'll remember from previous exchanges, I'm sceptical that this increase would be achievable simply. Apart from the basic area of terrace (which I don't think works - you were going to send me some calculations from the architect who was advising you years ago but I never got them), there's the issues of ingress and egress rates which I think would be very strained with the current set up if we increased the West stand capacity by 70%.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this - these are mainly hunches from my own professional background in this area.

I'm not going to indulge you again BST.

The Safe Standing campaign was full of very educated and knowledgable people which was a pleasure to lead. The architects were Populous, who went on to design the new Tottenham stadium. We had major relationships with all the German manufacturers of rail seats. We had a major partnership with the SGSA who write this stuff for all sporting stadia in the UK and overseas. We didn't make it up on the back of a fag packet!

And I did send you the calculations, for some reason you never acknowledged it. You'll have to forgive me but I'm more inclined to believe the people I worked with rather than your hunches. I'll accept one point though, ingress and egress matters, but the 0.7 factor is a maximum as we've always stressed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nope. I never received any calculations to my knowledge.

I absolutely agree that the 70% uplift is an upper bound. My apologies if you've been clear on that before. You weren't a few posts up from here.

[GazLaz]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

As you'll remember from previous exchanges, I'm sceptical that this increase would be achievable simply. Apart from the basic area of terrace (which I don't think works - you were going to send me some calculations from the architect who was advising you years ago but I never got them), there's the issues of ingress and egress rates which I think would be very strained with the current set up if we increased the West stand capacity by 70%.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this - these are mainly hunches from my own professional background in this area.

Then there’s the infrastructure toilets, catering etc. it won’t happen in our life time will it.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think our infrastructure is probably way above the minimum when compared with others.

BUT, we don't need more capacity and probably won't unless we get to the big league.  I'd love to see it just for the atmosphere it creates.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Could we increase the capacity if we could make the South Stand ‘safe standing’?

Yes you could.

But it would depend on how its done as there isn't a one size fits all solution.

You could introduce safe standing tomorrow by just inserting extra rails above the seat backs, but that wouldn't increase the capacity. It would however impact safety and atmosphere which was Nudga's point.

You could also replace the existing seating with rail seats, again atmosphere and safety would see benefits, although that would come at a cost.

If you wanted to increase that capacity you would have to remove the seats and install an extra half step between the existing rows and then install rails to provide extra safety. Not cheap, but would increase capacity in that area by a factor of 0.7. You would also have to account for the loss of permanent seating and the impact that would have on other sports and events in the stadium itself.

Interesting, when you say 0.7 . Does that mean 70% ?
Sorry if I'm being daft.
I doubt it would adversely affect other events at the stadium, its not like anything else sells all the seats anyway.

Yes, 70%, depending on the depth of the intermediate step.

As you'll remember from previous exchanges, I'm sceptical that this increase would be achievable simply. Apart from the basic area of terrace (which I don't think works - you were going to send me some calculations from the architect who was advising you years ago but I never got them), there's the issues of ingress and egress rates which I think would be very strained with the current set up if we increased the West stand capacity by 70%.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about this - these are mainly hunches from my own professional background in this area.

Then there’s the infrastructure toilets, catering etc. it won’t happen in our life time will it.

I'm sure there'd be some extra capacity if we went to safe standing. I've just always doubted it would be anywhere close to 70% extra, without major reworking of the rest of the infrastructure.

On the different topic of extending a stand, you'd build in the extra toilets, ingress/egress etc into the new structure. And I agree with your earlier point about the foundations of the existing stands which may or may not be suitable for an extension. But it wouldn't be the hardest job in the world to put in new foundations or extend the existing ones.

[pigeonhole]

On tours of the ground you're told the expansion can happen in the voids behind the back of the North and South stands.  The corrugated metal sheet, where flags and advertising hang, hides the steels that hold the concrete for the seats.  A few extra rows can be added there. 

Is this true?

[Superspy]

Seems like an odd thing to bullshit about on a stadium tour.

[colincramb]

On tours of the ground you're told the expansion can happen in the voids behind the back of the North and South stands.  The corrugated metal sheet, where flags and advertising hang, hides the steels that hold the concrete for the seats.  A few extra rows can be added there. 

Is this true?

Sounds like total b*llocks to me, but what do I know