SmArt charging of electric cars - new rule coming in

[normal rules]

I don’t have an electric car. And don’t plan on getting one anytime soon.
I’ve read today that a new rule is coming into force on 30 June. Any new car charging point has to have a data connection wired into it. These new charge points will ne configured to avoid charging between 8am and 11 am and between 4pm and 10pm on weekdays. This is to avoid peak demand times.
This is going to be helpful for shift workers is t it. On nights asleep in bed wanting to charge your car, but you are not allowed.
And then there are the public charging points. I’m assuming new ones will come under same rules.
Another nail in the coffin of electric cars for me.
They reckon one third of all electric car owners are unaware of these new rules. We are no where near getting the masses to go electric. And they are already putting measures in place to reduce demand.. this is just going to get worse.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's not a rule, it's just how the charge points will come preset.  A complete non story.

Most heavy users have an EV tariff already which is significantly cheaper to use at night time and you set the charge point to do so.

[normal rules]

It's not a rule, it's just how the charge points will come preset.  A complete non story.

The govt made it legislation last year.
The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021.

[albie]

Here you go, NR;
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice/smart-charging-electric-vehicles/

I hope that helps.

[normal rules]

Watch this, till the end. The bit where they say demand reaches capacity. Energy providers will be able to switch off car charging if the need is there . They will be hooked up to the internet. Remotely accessed.
There is now an acceptance that the grid cannot cope with everyone charging their cars at once.

https://youtu.be/jMagvdqlF9c

Oh, and there is a huge cyber security risk too.

[albie]

NR,

The video explains very well the importance of demand management.
National Grid has always used DM to smooth out the peaks so that despatchable capacity is within range.

Variable tariffs do the same, promoting choice of use when demand is low.
The entire point is to prevent demand reaching capacity, without loss of utility.

You seem to think that this is not a good thing...it is a very good thing, and quite normal.
Vehicle to Grid (V2G) is a way to reverse flow electricity against peak tariff charges...check it out.

The cyber security issue applies to all systems with internet connection.
It is far less likely to be a problem in this context than in other applications, given the charging systems are designed from base with this in mind.

I think your video answers the point you raised in the OP quite clearly.

[danumdon]

Talking about this at work today (i know its not a scientific sample but all have an interest as the company is gearing staff towards full electric cars)


Quite a few have issues with smart metres being able to collect data for peak demand and other times when they may want to throttle or even deny service(this was said by someone)

With car charging likely to be worked on a similar principle some were re considering their options about going full electric.

My cars only a year old so i have another of couple of years to wait and see how the land lies. I'd imagine by then things will have progressed a pace.

[albie]

DD,

They are not planning to deny service, that is just wrong...why would they, when they are selling you a product?

All that is being said is that peaks will be smoothed out, without consumers noticing any difference.
The mobile apps will give you the choice to pick a period (and tariff) which best supports your needs.

There is a over-ride option built in if required.
The video NR posted above explains it very well!

[normal rules]

There will be an override option to charge during peak times, I accept that. But that is a separate issue to being denied access to charge altogether, which the expert in the video clearly explains.
And this will likely be at peak times.
And, worst case scenario, these peak times could be up to 9 hours during the day on weekdays .
Is it just me that sees an issue with this ?
And what’s the betting this will become a regional issue, so areas of the southeast for example get preferential treatment over those in other areas of the country?
Energy suppliers will have the ability to switch On And off peoples ability to charge their cars , at times when they might need it. Such as people that work night shifts . It strikes me that this is all Geared up for people who are at home at night not working with their car sat on the drive charging .

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

What if the petrol station runs out of fuel in the middle of the night?  What does a shift worker do then?

Yes there will need to be overrides for those who regularly drive a long distance and back in a day but the vast majority wouldn't ever need that.  With an EV you become very used to plugging in frequently.  I have to as I have a hybrid with 30 mile real range.

But for a full EV a one night charge will get you over 200 miles now and that will only grow. With the incentives an EV driver would be stupid not to have a very cheap overnight tarriff. It's really not much of an issue.

To add at a business I formerly worked at we were hugely charged for energy use at peak times.  It was normal to power down production and use even to the point that laptops had to be off charge, lights switched off and no phone charging etc.  Usually that was between 4-6pm only.  So maybe second nature again for those who've worked in that environment.

[danumdon]

What if the petrol station runs out of fuel in the middle of the night?  What does a shift worker do then?

Yes there will need to be overrides for those who regularly drive a long distance and back in a day but the vast majority wouldn't ever need that.  With an EV you become very used to plugging in frequently.  I have to as I have a hybrid with 30 mile real range.

But for a full EV a one night charge will get you over 200 miles now and that will only grow. With the incentives an EV driver would be stupid not to have a very cheap overnight tarriff. It's really not much of an issue.

To add at a business I formerly worked at we were hugely charged for energy use at peak times.  It was normal to power down production and use even to the point that laptops had to be off charge, lights switched off and no phone charging etc.  Usually that was between 4-6pm only.  So maybe second nature again for those who've worked in that environment.

We have shift workers who also spend a great deal of time lodging in hotels, not much use to them.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Most hotels will have chargers.  One I stayed at last week was installing 20 alone.

[danumdon]

Most hotels will have chargers.  One I stayed at last week was installing 20 alone.

OK Thanks,

What i'd like to know is if staff have to lodge regularly and have to do most of their re-charging in hotels or public chargers what would be the economic impact on them?

I'm imagining that these chargers will charge a premium over what could be attained from home charging?

Would this be the case and would it be worth their while to do this instead of going for a petrol or hybrid car?

[selby]

   At the moment it is only a problem if you can actually buy a car, are they still making them?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

   At the moment it is only a problem if you can actually buy a car, are they still making them?

Had mine delivered 2 weeks ago.

Danum, no idea what will happen in future but typically you can get subscriptions etc to charge and in future that will only grow.  Of course it may end up a slight premium just as buying fuel on the motorway does.  Companies will sign up to subscription schemes like fuel cards though to get around it for sure.  It's a perk employers will want to get involved in.

[normal rules]

Here’s my take on the whole ev thing. I’m 52. Like those my age and above change has come over recent decades in tech, phones, internet etc at a rapid pace. I’ve embraced it. I’ve had to. I’ll probably have to embrace ev’s too, in time.
I just get this over riding feeling it’s not right. As a nation, this 2030 pledge just seems to be penalising. For many reasons. I feel like part of my freedom is being taken away. Too soon.
The price of ev ownership, lease or otherwise is just plain daft. And before anyone spouts green credentials, we are ripping up large parts of pristine eco systems to mine for cobalt. To create batteries that I have serious concerns when it comes to recycling.  Presiding over the production of cars that have an even more of a shorter shelf life than their ice equivalents. And let’s get real on this topic. We are plugging them into power sources which involve fossil fuels.
And now talk of limiting that supply at certain times. Because the grid can’t cope?
They call this progress?
Talk to the occupants of California who are suffering black outs currently as a result of ev charging.
Oh, and we live in a country that is pushing this agenda on its populous, and now talking of opening new coal mines.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm sure someone will manufacture a charging point that will act like a power bank - change an internal battery during off-peak that can be transferred to a car at any time.

[Draytonian III]

What about people who live a block of flats and have to use street parking because there’s not allocated parking space how are they going to charge their vehicles

[albie]

NR,

I think many others share some of your concerns.
No-one is going to stop you driving ICE if you want, but it is going to cost you much more to do so.

That said, I think you are on the wrong page with some of this.
Not having a dig at you at all, but it is worth looking at some of your misgivings.

1) "The price of EV ownership, lease or otherwise is just plain daft".
The whole cost is lower than ICE, because the higher purchase price is offset by lower running costs, both fuelling and maintenance.

The purchase price of the lower spec EV is on trend to be below ICE by 2025 at the latest.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-fall/
Wright's Law is the explanation, and this is intended as an indicator only.
This is referring just to Lithium-Ion batteries.

2) "And before anyone spouts green credentials, we are ripping up large parts of pristine eco systems to mine for cobalt".
New battery chemistries are looking to remove cobalt altogether. This is because of cost, and cobalt free will be the industry standard going forwards.

3) "To create batteries that I have serious concerns when it comes to recycling".
Batteries are hazardous waste, and cannot legally be landfilled or incinerated. They have important secondary value as storage capacity, and will be used in this way until stripped down for resource re-use.

4) "Presiding over the production of cars that have an even more of a shorter shelf life than their ice equivalents".
Err, they don't.

5) "We are plugging them into power sources which involve fossil fuels".
An increasing proportion of UK electricity is from renewables, and the Net Zero policy sets out a timetable for adoption of a greater share. Again, the cost of producing electricity from renewables like wind and solar is far lower than from legacy fossil fuels.

6) "And now talk of limiting that supply at certain times".
No, the suggestion in your video was for perhaps a 10 minute delay, which can be avoided by over-ride if you wish.

7) "Because the grid can’t cope?"
The grid can cope, not least because the UK has 8 interconnectors with Europe.
The National Grid balances demand to supply minute by minute. The cheapest way to do so is by smoothing the peak, so demand is met by running existing supply capacity at full efficiency. By creating incentives to transfer peak demand to non peak, the additional cost of providing additional peak capacity is avoided.

This has always been the strategy.
The lowest cost unit of electricity is that which you do not need to provide.

[Janso]

What about people who live a block of flats and have to use street parking because there’s not allocated parking space how are they going to charge their vehicles

Do these people have petrol stations outside their block of flats or do their heads just fall off?

[normal rules]

NR,

I think many others share some of your concerns.
No-one is going to stop you driving ICE if you want, but it is going to cost you much more to do so.

That said, I think you are on the wrong page with some of this.
Not having a dig at you at all, but it is worth looking at some of your misgivings.

1) "The price of EV ownership, lease or otherwise is just plain daft".
The whole cost is lower than ICE, because the higher purchase price is offset by lower running costs, both fuelling and maintenance.

The purchase price of the lower spec EV is on trend to be below ICE by 2025 at the latest.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-fall/
Wright's Law is the explanation, and this is intended as an indicator only.
This is referring just to Lithium-Ion batteries.

2) "And before anyone spouts green credentials, we are ripping up large parts of pristine eco systems to mine for cobalt".
New battery chemistries are looking to remove cobalt altogether. This is because of cost, and cobalt free will be the industry standard going forwards.

3) "To create batteries that I have serious concerns when it comes to recycling".
Batteries are hazardous waste, and cannot legally be landfilled or incinerated. They have important secondary value as storage capacity, and will be used in this way until stripped down for resource re-use.

4) "Presiding over the production of cars that have an even more of a shorter shelf life than their ice equivalents".
Err, they don't.

5) "We are plugging them into power sources which involve fossil fuels".
An increasing proportion of UK electricity is from renewables, and the Net Zero policy sets out a timetable for adoption of a greater share. Again, the cost of producing electricity from renewables like wind and solar is far lower than from legacy fossil fuels.

6) "And now talk of limiting that supply at certain times".
No, the suggestion in your video was for perhaps a 10 minute delay, which can be avoided by over-ride if you wish.

7) "Because the grid can’t cope?"
The grid can cope, not least because the UK has 8 interconnectors with Europe.
The National Grid balances demand to supply minute by minute. The cheapest way to do so is by smoothing the peak, so demand is met by running existing supply capacity at full efficiency. By creating incentives to transfer peak demand to non peak, the additional cost of providing additional peak capacity is avoided.

This has always been the strategy.
The lowest cost unit of electricity is that which you do not need to provide.

I’ll be clear. I do support anything to help the planet. To reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. I’m just unsure ev is the way.
I’ve said it before, car ownership and use in the next decade will be even more of a luxury than it is now. I’m fast approaching retirement full time.  I bought a caravan to enjoy in our retirement. But I’ll be selling it soon as I cannot justify the money needed to tow it any distance. Because the ev equivalent to my disco 3 is too expensive. And my disco three is rapidly becoming worthless.
The daft thing is, pound for pound flying abroad will be more cost effective. And that’s against the whole green campaign isn’t it?

[Glyn_Wigley]

What about people who live a block of flats and have to use street parking because there’s not allocated parking space how are they going to charge their vehicles

Do these people have petrol stations outside their block of flats or do their heads just fall off?

Do you have to leave your car at a petrol station all night to fill it up?

[River Don]

So far I'm taking the view that your existing car is the greenest car. I intend to run this one into the ground.

Then, I'm not even sure I'll get a replacement. We have are lucky enough to have a good bus service, I can get groceries delivered. On the infrequent occasions I will need a car or van I can hire.

I'm not absolutely set on this course but it is a possibility.

[normal rules]

Which did a test recently.
They went to a public rapid charging point that cost 55p per kWh.
They charged a Mercedes’ EQC.
It cost them 24p per mile.
The petrol equivalent was 16.2 p per mile . The equivalent diesel was 19.5 p per mile.

They did it with a cheaper Hyundai kona too. Same charging point. Even that worked out be be around 1p per mile cheaper for the petrol equivalent than the public rapid charger.

[Metalmicky]

NR,

I think many others share some of your concerns.
No-one is going to stop you driving ICE if you want, but it is going to cost you much more to do so.

That said, I think you are on the wrong page with some of this.
Not having a dig at you at all, but it is worth looking at some of your misgivings.

1) "The price of EV ownership, lease or otherwise is just plain daft".
The whole cost is lower than ICE, because the higher purchase price is offset by lower running costs, both fuelling and maintenance.

The purchase price of the lower spec EV is on trend to be below ICE by 2025 at the latest.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-fall/
Wright's Law is the explanation, and this is intended as an indicator only.
This is referring just to Lithium-Ion batteries.

2) "And before anyone spouts green credentials, we are ripping up large parts of pristine eco systems to mine for cobalt".
New battery chemistries are looking to remove cobalt altogether. This is because of cost, and cobalt free will be the industry standard going forwards.

3) "To create batteries that I have serious concerns when it comes to recycling".
Batteries are hazardous waste, and cannot legally be landfilled or incinerated. They have important secondary value as storage capacity, and will be used in this way until stripped down for resource re-use.

4) "Presiding over the production of cars that have an even more of a shorter shelf life than their ice equivalents".
Err, they don't.

5) "We are plugging them into power sources which involve fossil fuels".
An increasing proportion of UK electricity is from renewables, and the Net Zero policy sets out a timetable for adoption of a greater share. Again, the cost of producing electricity from renewables like wind and solar is far lower than from legacy fossil fuels.

6) "And now talk of limiting that supply at certain times".
No, the suggestion in your video was for perhaps a 10 minute delay, which can be avoided by over-ride if you wish.

7) "Because the grid can’t cope?"
The grid can cope, not least because the UK has 8 interconnectors with Europe.
The National Grid balances demand to supply minute by minute. The cheapest way to do so is by smoothing the peak, so demand is met by running existing supply capacity at full efficiency. By creating incentives to transfer peak demand to non peak, the additional cost of providing additional peak capacity is avoided.

This has always been the strategy.
The lowest cost unit of electricity is that which you do not need to provide.

Some interesting points there albie - certainly educated an old fossil like me.  I have an ICE currently but intend to swap over to an EV in the next 2 years - perhaps even swapping to a one car household dependant on if I want to continue working.

I have solar panels, so I can hopefully benefit from charging through them during the day.  It is a quandary not knowing the time to make the change, balancing out the availability of charge points etc..... and this current fuel and energy 'crisis' hasn't done made the decisions any easier.   

[rtid88]

How about the fact Electric cars are much heavier than petrol/diesel cars due to the battery and internal combustion system which therefore burns tyres faster and means tyres have to be changed much often.

How is this better for the environment??

[normal rules]

Interestingly, the eu has recently agreed to a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035.a full five years after the uk ban.
Italy Portugal Slovakia Bulgaria and Romania want to delay this further though.

[albie]

Fellas,

I think some are just looking for reasons to say why not.

The fact is it is going to happen, and the change is taking place now.
You can stay with ICE if you want, but the cost is going to rise while the cost of EV will fall....your choice!

The sales figures show that diesel is almost over (with new cars), and petrol is going the same way.

That is not to say there are no issues with EV.
The charging network in the UK is biased towards the SE, and different standards for connection and connectors needs to be sorted. Any EV should plug into any rapid charger.

MetalMicky is quids in with solar on the roof.
Top up when parked up at home. He could even use the leccy stored in the battery to power the house...others do, its called V2G (vehicle to grid).
https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology

So while the old brigade are paying top dollar for their petrol, and top dollar again for running the house, he can avoid price rises in both...looks like a winner to me!

More info here:
https://www.zap-map.com/

[Janso]

What about people who live a block of flats and have to use street parking because there’s not allocated parking space how are they going to charge their vehicles

Do these people have petrol stations outside their block of flats or do their heads just fall off?

Do you have to leave your car at a petrol station all night to fill it up?

You don't have to leave your car overnight to fill up.

[Glyn_Wigley]

How about the fact Electric cars are much heavier than petrol/diesel cars due to the battery and internal combustion system which therefore burns tyres faster and means tyres have to be changed much often.

How is this better for the environment??

The last I heard, rubber was a renewable resource as you can grow it.