NHS

[selby]

   BST, for gods name don't try and prove it with a graph or a pie chart.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

That is a profoundly depressing thing to read. So once again you're implying that I'm lying.

If the Tories proposed economic policies that would benefit the country as a whole and the working classes and North in particular,and Labour didn't, I would vote Tory. Categorically.

The fact is that that has never been the case in my lifetime.

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS.

Having just seen Selby's response Hound, at least your post was only the second most depressing one on this thread.

God f**king help us, eh Selby? Don't try to demonstrate anything with shit like facts.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well ok. If you don't like graphs and numbers, what about a politician REALLY going toe to toe with Andrew Neil and putting him in his place?

This is how to deal with an aggressive interviewer. Do your homework, know your facts and be confident.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1200068008741343232

[drfchound]

Hound.

That is a profoundly depressing thing to read. So once again you're implying that I'm lying.

If the Tories proposed economic policies that would benefit the country as a whole and the working classes and North in particular,and Labour didn't, I would vote Tory. Categorically.

The fact is that that has never been the case in my lifetime.

BST, I haven’t implied you were lying at all.
You asked me a question and I answered.
I answered honestly because I don’t think that you would ever back a Tory policy that went against a Labour one on a similar subject.
You have a serious dislike of anything Tory.

[wilts rover]

Lets just hope its a hung Parliament

Almost none of them deserve any credit and almost none of them have any creditability left - not that that will bother them in the slightest

Wild predictions / mainfesto promises made on both sides of the divide which we KNOW as "average men in the street" are 99% pie in the sky - and we all KNOW that whoever wins will barely keep a single one of the promises they are spouting now

I am fed up with the f*****g lot of them

Join the club Wolfie mate. I've been saying all of that on here for ages, and have been acused of "lazy thinking".

I have also joined your club Steve but if I post anything similar to what Wolfie has written I get bombarded by people telling me how wrong I am.
Apparently even respected bodies like the IFS are wrong when they question the manifestos of the leading parties.

The IFS said that Labour had vastly underestimated how much their plan could boost the economy, £22 billion, with its associated increased tax take, which was £17 billion more than Labour themselves had projected.

In contrast they said the Tory's 'would end up spending more than their manifesto implies and thus taxing or borrowing more”, with their proposals riddled with uncosted commitments and vague aspirations.

Perhaps you need to look at what the IFS actually said rather than what people say they said?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/28/ifs-manifesto-labour-economy-investment

[SydneyRover]

One very obvious thing about this forum is that anyone who criticises Labour must be voting Tory.
[/quote]

That's a very silly thing to say.

But here is a fact, for anyone deciding how to vote.

There are only two post-election possibilities.

1) Boris Johnson is PM
2) There is a Labour PM

(The only reason I don't say Corbyn for 2 is that there are rumours that smaller parties might insist on Corbyn being replaced as a price for supporting a Labour minority Govt. I don't believe it will happen but it's a possibility.)
[/quote]

There is no need to talk down to me BST, like a headmaster speaking to a pupil.
I am well aware there are only two possible outcomes for PM, I said the same thing a few days ago on here.
In my view there is no chance of Corbyn becoming PM.
To be honest, I don’t fancy either of them to do the job.
I am very concerned for our futures.
[/quote]

Criticising labour is not a crime but it's a waste of time and energy to keep saying they are all as bad as each other when clearly the facts if you're interested tell you/everyone this is not true.

So you don't fancy either of them and you're fearful for the future, again the facts tell you that either the tories don't understand basic economics or they have used Austerity as a weapon to undermine the welfare state including the NHS, so either way why would you use your vote to allow them another term?

Now you can do a bb or a bp and say some like 'but that's not true is it' or you could engage with the facts in a reasoned way.

[drfchound]

One very obvious thing about this forum is that anyone who criticises Labour must be voting Tory.

That's a very silly thing to say.

But here is a fact, for anyone deciding how to vote.

There are only two post-election possibilities.

1) Boris Johnson is PM
2) There is a Labour PM

(The only reason I don't say Corbyn for 2 is that there are rumours that smaller parties might insist on Corbyn being replaced as a price for supporting a Labour minority Govt. I don't believe it will happen but it's a possibility.)
[/quote]

There is no need to talk down to me BST, like a headmaster speaking to a pupil.
I am well aware there are only two possible outcomes for PM, I said the same thing a few days ago on here.
In my view there is no chance of Corbyn becoming PM.
To be honest, I don’t fancy either of them to do the job.
I am very concerned for our futures.
[/quote]

Criticising labour is not a crime but it's a waste of time and energy to keep saying they are all as bad as each other when clearly the facts if you're interested tell you/everyone this is not true.

So you don't fancy either of them and you're fearful for the future, again the facts tell you that either the tories don't understand basic economics or they have used Austerity as a weapon to undermine the welfare state including the NHS, so either way why would you use your vote to allow them another term?

Now you can do a bb or a bp and say some like 'but that's not true is it' or you could engage with the facts in a reasoned way.
[/quote]







Another headmaster like post from a Labour supporter.   

As I have just said to BST, some of you Labour boys are assuming that I am going to vote Tory.

[SydneyRover]

 

You told everyone you're not, but the message coming through in you're posts is that you think they're all the same which is rubbish

[drfchound]

So are you saying that I am lying.
To be honest I don’t really care how you interpret my posts.

And yes, I do think that most politicians are habitual stretchers of the truth.
As DW has said earlier tonight, they are probably mostly in it for themselves.
I didn’t see you jump on his post for saying that by the way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

I dislike them because of the policies that they usually stand for! Like I just said, if they proposed policies that I considered beneficial and Labour did not, I'd vote for them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

Once again, I for one have never suggested you were going to vote Tory. But as I said, if you don't want a Labour PM, by definition you want Johnson as PM.

This is a straightforward binary choice. So, whatever your protestations, if you're not going to vote in a way that makes a Labour PM more likely, you're supporting Johnson. That's just a fact.

For balance, I'll say again what I have said frequently. Those on the Left who couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Gordon Brown Labour Govt in 2010 (and there are several hundred thousand of them) were endorsing a Cameron Govt and the ensuing problems of Austerity.

[drfchound]

Hound.

I dislike them because of the policies that they usually stand for! Like I just said, if they proposed policies that I considered beneficial and Labour did not, I'd vote for them.

Ok, let’s leave it there then.
If that is the case then you are very different to some of the extreme Labour supporters on here.

[SydneyRover]

So are you saying that I am lying.
To be honest I don’t really care how you interpret my posts.

And yes, I do think that most politicians are habitual stretchers of the truth.
As DW has said earlier tonight, they are probably mostly in it for themselves.
I didn’t see you jump on his post for saying that by the way.

Ramp it up by all means.

What I am saying is that you're not engaging with the facts, if you don't happen to like Cornyn which many don't, who cares, but if you suggest that he's as bad as Johnson without saying why then you don't deserve respect in what is supposed to be a reasoned debate.

Yes I'm guilty of dragging the debate down at times but it's usually because of the bb syndrome, circular arguments, avoiding questions to fairly basic questions, not supporting ones statements and changing the subject.

[drfchound]

Hound.

Once again, I for one have never suggested you were going to vote Tory. But as I said, if you don't want a Labour PM, by definition you want Johnson as PM.

This is a straightforward binary choice. So, whatever your protestations, if you're not going to vote in a way that makes a Labour PM more likely, you're supporting Johnson. That's just a fact.

For balance, I'll say again what I have said frequently. Those on the Left who couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Gordon Brown Labour Govt in 2010 (and there are several hundred thousand of them) were endorsing a Cameron Govt and the ensuing problems of Austerity.

I wanted to call it a day over this but I just saw your add on post.
As I have said numerous times, my vote locally won’t make any difference to the outcome in Don Valley.
I vote Labour and they win by one more vote.
I vote for another candidate (whoever it is) and Labour win by one less vote.
If I vote for say, Lib Dem, that implies that I want Swinson to be PM which doesn’t fit well with your suggestion that I want Johnson to be PM.
Whoever I vote for is irrelevant as we both know that JC or BJ will be PM and my vote won’t change that.

[drfchound]

So are you saying that I am lying.
To be honest I don’t really care how you interpret my posts.

And yes, I do think that most politicians are habitual stretchers of the truth.
As DW has said earlier tonight, they are probably mostly in it for themselves.
I didn’t see you jump on his post for saying that by the way.

Ramp it up by all means.

What I am saying is that you're not engaging with the facts, if you don't happen to like Cornyn which many don't, who cares, but if you suggest that he's as bad as Johnson without saying why then you don't deserve respect in what is supposed to be a reasoned debate.

Yes I'm guilty of dragging the debate down at times but it's usually because of the bb syndrome, circular arguments, avoiding questions to fairly basic questions, not supporting ones statements and changing the subject.

Ramp it up?
What are you on?

[Filo]

Hound.

Once again, I for one have never suggested you were going to vote Tory. But as I said, if you don't want a Labour PM, by definition you want Johnson as PM.

This is a straightforward binary choice. So, whatever your protestations, if you're not going to vote in a way that makes a Labour PM more likely, you're supporting Johnson. That's just a fact.

For balance, I'll say again what I have said frequently. Those on the Left who couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Gordon Brown Labour Govt in 2010 (and there are several hundred thousand of them) were endorsing a Cameron Govt and the ensuing problems of Austerity.

I wanted to call it a day over this but I just saw your add on post.
As I have said numerous times, my vote locally won’t make any difference to the outcome in Don Valley.
I vote Labour and they win by one more vote.
I vote for another candidate (whoever it is) and Labour win by one less vote.
If I vote for say, Lib Dem, that implies that I want Swinson to be PM which doesn’t fit well with your suggestion that I want Johnson to be PM.
Whoever I vote for is irrelevant as we both know that JC or BJ will be PM and my vote won’t change that.

That yougov poll yesterday suggests Caroline Flint may lose Don Valley

[SydneyRover]

So are you saying that I am lying.
To be honest I don’t really care how you interpret my posts.

And yes, I do think that most politicians are habitual stretchers of the truth.
As DW has said earlier tonight, they are probably mostly in it for themselves.
I didn’t see you jump on his post for saying that by the way.

Ramp it up by all means.

What I am saying is that you're not engaging with the facts, if you don't happen to like Cornyn which many don't, who cares, but if you suggest that he's as bad as Johnson without saying why then you don't deserve respect in what is supposed to be a reasoned debate.

Yes I'm guilty of dragging the debate down at times but it's usually because of the bb syndrome, circular arguments, avoiding questions to fairly basic questions, not supporting ones statements and changing the subject.

Ramp it up?
What are you on?

By suggesting I'm calling you a liar,

But you could have addressed the other concerns which I mentioned but you didn't so here we go again on the hamster wheel.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

I'd just reinforce what Filo said.

According to the YG poll yesterday, your constituency (my old one) is now a marginal, leaning towards the Tories.

You can check here.

https://yougov.co.uk/uk-general-election-2019/#uk-elections-constituency-search-anchor

So your vote is actually one of the most powerful in the country.

[drfchound]

So are you saying that I am lying.
To be honest I don’t really care how you interpret my posts.

And yes, I do think that most politicians are habitual stretchers of the truth.
As DW has said earlier tonight, they are probably mostly in it for themselves.
I didn’t see you jump on his post for saying that by the way.

Ramp it up by all means.

What I am saying is that you're not engaging with the facts, if you don't happen to like Cornyn which many don't, who cares, but if you suggest that he's as bad as Johnson without saying why then you don't deserve respect in what is supposed to be a reasoned debate.

Yes I'm guilty of dragging the debate down at times but it's usually because of the bb syndrome, circular arguments, avoiding questions to fairly basic questions, not supporting ones statements and changing the subject.

Ramp it up?
What are you on?

By suggesting I'm calling you a liar,

But you could have addressed the other concerns which I mentioned but you didn't so here we go again on the hamster wheel.

You know how to twist words SR, I will give you that.

I didn’t suggest that you called me a liar, I ASKED whether you were doing so.
There is a difference.

[SydneyRover]

Maybe you should have a nice cup of tea and read through our comments again

[drfchound]

Maybe you should have a nice cup of tea and read through our comments again

Don’t need to, I know what I wrote.

[SydneyRover]

hound ''So are you saying that I am lying.'' 

[drfchound]

hound ''So are you saying that I am lying.'' 

That clearly is a question.
I know I could have put a question mark at the end to make it easier for you to understand.

[SydneyRover]

hound ''So are you saying that I am lying.'' 

That clearly is a question.
I know I could have put a question mark at the end to make it easier for you to understand.

Please yourself hound believe what you want if it makes you feel better 

[drfchound]

hound ''So are you saying that I am lying.'' 

That clearly is a question.
I know I could have put a question mark at the end to make it easier for you to understand.

Please yourself hound believe what you want if it makes you feel better 

Haha.

[albie]

There is a Full Fact briefing on the 40 hospitals fairytale from Spaffman;
https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty/

For those interested in the NHS topic.

[Sprotyrover]

There is a Full Fact briefing on the 40 hospitals fairytale from Spaffman;
https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty/

For those interested in the NHS topic.

How much are the Yanks prepared to pay for the NHS ? 😗😗😗

[albie]

There is a Full Fact briefing on the 40 hospitals fairytale from Spaffman;
https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty/

For those interested in the NHS topic.

How much are the Yanks prepared to pay for the NHS ? 😗😗😗

In the first instance, Sproty, it is about making the NHS pay top dollar for life saving drugs.
That can't be afforded without rationing care, so that comes next.

After that, you have created a failing system, so softened up for cherry picking at discount prices by US insurers.

Watch the "Dispatches" I linked yesterday (in this thread)...it sets out the scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neKDg1zYnuk

[SydneyRover]

Questions that require answers are when will any of the hopital rebuild projects be shovel ready, when will they be running at full capacity?