Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Copps is Magic on November 18, 2017, 04:59:07 pm
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Game.
Lacked quality, lacked composure with some brief glimpses in 2nd half we were a half decent team. Marquis lonely up front.
It ain't good at the moment.
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Unbeaten in 5 games in all competition, you win some you draw some
COYR
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Would have taken that at 3pm
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Unbeaten in 5 games in all competition, you win some you draw some
COYR
I offered my opinion on the performance. Thinks that's a generous reading of the form. We've got enough to stay up but it will be close.
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Copps. How about this for a reading of the form?
Last 8 games we've played 5 of the current top 10 sides. Our form is
W3 D2 L3
Comfortable mid-table form.
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Rovrum conceded in the 94th minute. Another reason to be cheerful! :scarf: :scarf: :scarf: :scarf:
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Very good result that,
They have a good home record if we can get something on Tuesday it'll be a good week
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I fully believe we'll be better in front of goal when May is back. We have a winning run in us, hopefully that's just around the corner.
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Another game where Marquis isn’t taking advantage of his opportunities. January has to bring changes this is becoming serious when we’ve played more games than goals scored.
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Copps. How about this for a reading of the form?
Last 8 games we've played 5 of the current top 10 sides. Our form is
W3 D2 L3
Comfortable mid-table form.
You're busting a gut to point out we're bang average at best.
Now, either you have some incredible foresight and patience for the direction Fergie is taking the club, or you're failing to see that a broadly good bunch of players are putting in below potential, disorganised performances on a regular basis which can be seldom described in glowing terms.
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Copps. How about this for a reading of the form?
Last 8 games we've played 5 of the current top 10 sides. Our form is
W3 D2 L3
Comfortable mid-table form.
You're busting a gut to point out we're bang average at best.
Now, either you have some incredible foresight and patience for the direction Fergie is taking the club, or you're failing to see that a broadly good bunch of players are putting in below potential, disorganised performances on a regular basis which can be seldom described in glowing terms.
Sorry Copps don’t agree they are a team who are playing at their potential and the more they do that then we will see an improvement if we go back to a attacking formation we will get beat because these players play to gun ho in that formation.
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I'm not being funny but if fans are pissing and whining about a draw away against a side that reached the playoffs last year and are just outside them this year, a side that's only lost 2 home games all season.
What chance have you got
Unbelievable
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We are at our limit and shows . This probably the first game that we’ve not lost when DF has taken Copps off , so thats an improvement.
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We are bang average but isn't that fine this season? We're moving forward steadily but that's a good thing. Don't go too quick build slowly. But we are improving. We would have lost today 3 months ago.
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I'm not being funny but if fans are pissing and whining about a draw away against a side that reached the playoffs last year and are just outside them this year, a side that's only lost 2 home games all season.
What chance have you got
Unbelievable
What chance have you got of what exactly?
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A good result today. Not a nice place to go, and has been pointed out elsewhere, they've turned a number of teams over at home this season. Looks like the penny might have dropped for DF that these are the games where you go to grind out a point. Hope that history doesn't repeat itself; when we drew 0-0 there a couple of years back it heralded the start of our 17 game winless run!
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Copps
I think you're mistaking facts for opinions mate.
It is a fact that we've played 5 of the current top 10 in our last 8 games. It's a fact that we've had comfortable mid-table form in those 8 games.
I didn't offer any opinion on that. And I certainly didn't bust a gut. It took all of 10 seconds to establish those facts.
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Another game where Marquis isn’t taking advantage of his opportunities. January has to bring changes this is becoming serious when we’ve played more games than goals scored.
Did you watch the game?
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I'm not being funny but if fans are pissing and whining about a draw away against a side that reached the playoffs last year and are just outside them this year, a side that's only lost 2 home games all season.
What chance have you got
Unbelievable
What chance have you got of what exactly?
Of ever pleasing some fans
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Doncaster became the first team to stop Fleetwood scoring at Highbury this season as they drew 0-0.
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It's just another cheap throw-away comment, bst, and once again our striker gets it. I'd like to know who we have that is going to do any better. There was signs against Rotherham that the lad is getting some form back.
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Alan
I can only think there there are two possibilities when someone says that Marquis wasn't taking advantage of opportunities.
1) He didn't watch the match, in which case he's no idea what he's taking about.
2) He did watch the match, in which case I've no idea what he's talking about.
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I'm not being funny but if fans are pissing and whining about a draw away against a side that reached the playoffs last year and are just outside them this year, a side that's only lost 2 home games all season.
What chance have you got
Unbelievable
What chance have you got of what exactly?
Of ever pleasing some fans
So that's the primary objective is it, as opposed to not threatening the club with another relegation?
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Drawing away at sides like fleetwood isn't relegation form.
That's the point
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It's a point, it's better than I expected, so I'm very happy with the result.
Not every game is going to pretty or glamorous but if we can pick up a point from a difficult game like this, then it's more than okay.
Hopefully we can do the same at Wigan.
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I'm not being funny but if fans are pissing and whining about a draw away against a side that reached the playoffs last year and are just outside them this year, a side that's only lost 2 home games all season.
What chance have you got
Unbelievable
What chance have you got of what exactly?
Of ever pleasing some fans
So that's the primary objective is it, as opposed to not threatening the club with another relegation?
Football should be entertaining. Would love to see the rovers go out there and try and beat teams rather then just not get beat. Haven't really had it since dave Penney left all those years ago!
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1.1 points game probably is relegation form though.
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I'm not being funny but if fans are pissing and whining about a draw away against a side that reached the playoffs last year and are just outside them this year, a side that's only lost 2 home games all season.
What chance have you got
Unbelievable
What chance have you got of what exactly?
Of ever pleasing some fans
So that's the primary objective is it, as opposed to not threatening the club with another relegation?
Football should be entertaining. Would love to see the rovers go out there and try and beat teams rather then just not get beat. Haven't really had it since dave Penney left all those years ago!
I'd rather us stay up every year by whatever means necessary.
Attractive football is secondary to achieving results. SO'D's football was very attractive when it was good, but often it was very boring and there was far too much sideways passing when a shot at goal would have been the better option.
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Bury and Plymouth would need to start playing title winning form to catch us or we would have to significantly drop our form.
So two places left
Drawing away at fleetwood is a very good result, I can't get my head around people moaning about it
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Keeping up our form over the first 18 games would get us 51-52 points.
I don't think we'd go down with that.
Our form over the last 10 games is 1.3 points per game, if we carried this on we would end up on 57-58 points
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1.1 points game probably is relegation form though.
Agreed but I think we've had some bad luck and some poor play late in games. We are and will improve on that.
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True. It would for instance require a catastrophic loss of form by Rovers to go down from League One, say if we started losing lots of game from January onwards, with no ability to pull out of that death spiral.
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I don't think marquis is the problem, copps rove and kongolo, need to get up to support and it's just not happening
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Bury and Plymouth would need to start playing title winning form to catch us or we would have to significantly drop our form.
So two places left
Drawing away at fleetwood is a very good result, I can't get my head around people moaning about it
I think they could easily catch us. All it would take is for them to have a good run of 3/4 wins and for us to stutter a little bit and only pick up a couple of points in the same period.
All said and done though, we're not in a bad position. We've sort of maintained our position for a while and there's encouraging signs (albeit slow), we're just in a position still where we can't really afford a poor run of form over a period of 4/5 games otherwise we'd probably drop into the relegation zone.
A draw away to a good Fleetwood side isn't bad form though so I too and mind boggled by the people who see it as a negative.
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True. It would for instance require a catastrophic loss of form by Rovers to go down from League One, say if we started losing lots of game from January onwards, with no ability to pull out of that death spiral.
Good result today?
Yes or no?
Banging on about 2 years ago is a bit silly
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We need to stock up on the points now based on our last 2 seasons
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Bury and Plymouth would need to start playing title winning form to catch us or we would have to significantly drop our form.
So two places left
Drawing away at fleetwood is a very good result, I can't get my head around people moaning about it
I think they could easily catch us. All it would take is for them to have a good run of 3/4 wins and for us to stutter a little bit and only pick up a couple of points in the same period.
All said and done though, we're not in a bad position. We've sort of maintained our position for a while and there's encouraging signs (albeit slow), we're just in a position still where we can't really afford a poor run of form over a period of 4/5 games otherwise we'd probably drop into the relegation zone.
A draw away to a good Fleetwood side isn't bad form though so I too and mind boggled by the people who see it as a negative.
Bury and Plymouth would need a significant upturn in form to reach 51 points
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If it wasnt for the curse of the late goals we would be sat nicely in the playoffs by now.
There is nowt in this league to scare anybody,get some confidence going and cut these mistakes out and we will be fine :scarf:
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Please let's not have any wild predictions about the 'R' word. We've had too many catastrophes recently to know better. Bad Karma.
By the sounds of it, DF has got targets for January and as I don't think we're far off, it could be a good second half on the season.
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True. It would for instance require a catastrophic loss of form by Rovers to go down from League One, say if we started losing lots of game from January onwards, with no ability to pull out of that death spiral.
Good result today?
Yes or no?
Banging on about 2 years ago is a bit silly
It was a good result.
We are still on course to be fighting relegation.
Both statements are true and not mutually exclusive.
1.1 points per game equals at risk of relegation.
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Wasn't at the game so can't comment on the performance but it's a great result, & a clean sheet away from home is another positive, signings in January is key to whether we finish comfortably or hover just above the relegation places.
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True. It would for instance require a catastrophic loss of form by Rovers to go down from League One, say if we started losing lots of game from January onwards, with no ability to pull out of that death spiral.
Good result today?
Yes or no?
Banging on about 2 years ago is a bit silly
It was a good result.
We are still on course to be fighting relegation.
Both statements are true and not mutually exclusive.
1.1 points per game equals at risk of relegation.
Don't agree we're still on course to being in a relegation battle.
We've not been in the zone all season have we, plus our form has picked up quite significantly the last half a dozen games
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Another game where Marquis isn’t taking advantage of his opportunities. January has to bring changes this is becoming serious when we’ve played more games than goals scored.
Hang on a minute, the report on the BBC website says this:
"Cairns thwarted his home-town club in the second half as he saved John Marquis' glancing header before flying through the air to tip a thunderbolt from the striker over.
A classic Fleetwood counter should have given Uwe Rolser's side all three points as Jordy Hiwula released Cole but his effort was stopped by Lawlor.
But it was to be Cairns who had the last word as he marked his 50th Football League appearance for the club by tipping another fierce Marquis effort over."
So their keeper stops Marquis' efforts that were "fierce" and a "thunderbolt", and you have a pop at Marquis??
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I'm still convinced we won't get relegated, but I'm starting to think it will be closer than we thought.
Despite us being on a relatively decent run recently (compared to earlier in the season) we're still only 2 points off the bottom 4 and I think a couple of teams below us have a game in hand. Wouldn't want them to win those games
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I'm still convinced we won't get relegated, but I'm starting to think it will be closer than we thought.
Despite us being on a relatively decent run recently (compared to earlier in the season) we're still only 2 points off the bottom 4 and I think a couple of teams below us have a game in hand. Wouldn't want them to win those games
You thought today was a good result though?
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True. It would for instance require a catastrophic loss of form by Rovers to go down from League One, say if we started losing lots of game from January onwards, with no ability to pull out of that death spiral.
Good result today?
Yes or no?
Banging on about 2 years ago is a bit silly
It was a good result.
We are still on course to be fighting relegation.
Both statements are true and not mutually exclusive.
1.1 points per game equals at risk of relegation.
Don't agree we're still on course to being in a relegation battle.
We've not been in the zone all season have we, plus our form has picked up quite significantly the last half a dozen games
I don’t think we will go down either. We will though be one of a number of teams who will be threatened by relegation. We are 40pc of the way through the season and we are averaging 1.1 points per game. That is form that will see you in the firing line for relegation, although you would hope that 50 points would see us safe.
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In the context of today's game where Fleetwood weren't very good and created very close to nothing, I'm not really sure today's result was a good one.
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Heard it all now
So we played well defensively restricted the decent opposition to very little and you use that as a negative
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Wind kills goals.
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Copps
I think you're mistaking facts for opinions mate.
It is a fact that we've played 5 of the current top 10 in our last 8 games. It's a fact that we've had comfortable mid-table form in those 8 games.
I didn't offer any opinion on that. And I certainly didn't bust a gut. It took all of 10 seconds to establish those facts.
Then you had an incredible epistemological epiphany in the space of one thread. You went from offering a 'reading' of the form to suggesting all knowledge was objective and independent of interpretation. Quite a journey.
Anyway let's not get bogged down in the minutiae. The best way of painting it is that we are average.
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Heard it all now
So we played well defensively restricted the decent opposition to very little and you use that as a negative
It's the decent opposition bit that's confusing you. You've glanced at the league table and thought they must be decent but on today's evidence they weren't.
The ironic thing is, if you glanced at the league table you'd get the idea that we're shit. Which is exactly the position you seem to be arguing against!
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No,
They reached the playoffs last season, they've only lost 2 home games all season, they've scored in every home game this season.
I do wonder what expectations people have, we've just got promoted and we're lambasting an away draw against a side that just reached the playoffs
A reality check on who you actually support may be needed
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What was your expectations before this season started?
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Pertinent question. I support a well run, plucky, lower league club, who should have periodic ambitions to reach above their station through finding that bit of magic on the pitch.
Not a club yo-yo'ing between the bottom two divisions through indecisive football.
Not entirely sure where you stand, in anywhere.
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What was your expectations before this season started?
I would have thought, given the side and momentum built last season, at least challenging the playoffs ( by that I mean top-half) should have been a realistic ambition and reflective of the budget.
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Fewer goals scored than games played and only two points out of the bottom four.
Didn’t Dickov lose his job for getting us into a similar situation?
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Copps
I'll be honest chief, I haven't got a scooby about this epistemological jive. I have this really simple take that some things are objective facts. If you want to build a thesis out of that then knock yourself out.
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We hardly gave Fleetwood a sniff today. I take that as a positive.
Cole is one of the top scorers in the league and all he had was one week header at goal in the 1st half. I take that as a positive.
Marquis worked his socks off yet again in a lone striker role and in the 2nd half could have scored a hat trick but for their Doncaster born keeper making excellent saves. I take that as a positive also.
Stop moaning, yes there is room for considerable improvement which I think we will see over the coming weeks and months. No way do I think we will get relegated.
I predict we will finish between 10th and 14th
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Another game where Marquis isn’t taking advantage of his opportunities. January has to bring changes this is becoming serious when we’ve played more games than goals scored.
The stick dished out to Marquis by Since1969 is strange.
Today he was denied a goal by three top saves (according to match reports) and yet he sees this as missing chances.
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Fewer goals scored than games played and only two points out of the bottom four.
Didn’t Dickov lose his job for getting us into a similar situation?
Oh, don't start all this Dickov noncence again
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Just an observation mate.
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Positives.
Clean sheet against a side in the right half of the table. Didn't lose. Defended alright, though not too much to worry us anyway.
Negatives.
One of the most boring games I've ever watched. Didn't score. Didn't win.
But we played largely shite going forward and still got a point. Some of the basics were missing at times like being able to play a five yard pass, but a point is a point and it keeps things ticking over.
We'll probably get absolutely dicked on Tuesday night, mind, but Wigan are a much better side.
Oh and while we're on the subject of Dickov... it was slow, predictable, ponderous, I'd go as far as to say pedestrian. Very, er, Dickov-like... from a bloke who supposedly plays quick attacking football. Irony is, the few occasions we hit them with a quick counter, we looked dangerous. But these were far too infrequent. It's the pace the team play at going forward that's killing it off. Too many times they'll cut back after already beating a man and then pass inside unnecessarily or try and beat him again for some reason.
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Positives.
Clean sheet against a side in the right half of the table. Didn't lose. Defended alright, though not too much to worry us anyway.
Negatives.
One of the most boring games I've ever watched. Didn't score. Didn't win.
But we played largely shite going forward and still got a point. Some of the basics were missing at times like being able to play a five yard pass, but a point is a point and it keeps things ticking over.
We'll probably get absolutely dicked on Tuesday night, mind, but Wigan are a much better side.
Oh and while we're on the subject of Dickov... it was slow, predictable, ponderous, I'd go as far as to say pedestrian. Very, er, Dickov-like... from a bloke who supposedly plays quick attacking football. Irony is, the few occasions we hit them with a quick counter, we looked dangerous. But these were far too infrequent. It's the pace the team play at going forward that's killing it off. Too many times they'll cut back after already beating a man and then pass inside unnecessarily or try and beat him again for some reason.
RedJ, when comparing this current team to Dickovs L1 team, we have, on the face of it, a better group of players now.
However, our recent attacking threat is about as potent as back then and the defence is probably as good.
As others have said, is this really a Darren Ferguson team.
I am comparing the two teams at L1 level.
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He's obviously made a conscious effort to make us more solid and difficult to beat.
At the beginning of the season we were scoring goals but conceding too many.
We were too open and this forum was awash with people saying the defence was terrible.
If we're aiming to consolidate this season then being solid and difficult to beat is the way to be in my opinion.
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Which is why I brought Dickov into the conversation.
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I'd question whether we actually do have a better squad now than what we had when Dickov was manager in League One.
We had both some very experienced players in Wellens, Tyson, Jones, whilst Forrester and Williams were very highly regarded at the time.
All of those players posed a threat going forward in one way or another.
Now, we've sort of got experience going forward in Marquis, relatively untried, untested and inexperienced players in May, Mandeville and Longbottom and an older, but less rated, Williams.
We may be stronger in other areas, but going forward it's been like going to the dentist and him extracting every tooth apart from the golden one.
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Football should be entertaining. Would love to see the rovers go out there and try and beat teams rather then just not get beat. Haven't really had it since dave Penney left all those years ago!
you'd have preferred them to have lost 3-4 with sequinned pole-dancers performing at either end of the away end handing out free krispy kremes, with charlie chuck leading community singing at half time than to have taken a point from a tricky away game, ?
entertainment, my arse*...
* that could have been worded better....
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Which is why I brought Dickov into the conversation.
The big difference is that we weren't consolidating under Dickov we'd just come down from the championship and were one of favourites to go up
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It was our second season.
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I know,
We were 2nd favourites for the title
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Which is why I brought Dickov into the conversation.
The big difference is that we weren't consolidating under Dickov we'd just come down from the championship and were one of favourites to go up
Hadn’t Dickov had a full season in L1 with before being sacked early the season after that.
I don’t recall us being promotion favourites that season.
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We were
The fact he'd had a season when we were supposed to be going straight back should emphasise the point even more that he was struggling at the end
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We were
The fact he'd had a season when we were supposed to be going straight back should emphasise the point even more that he was struggling at the end
...... but we were probably not much different to what we are doing now.
As I seem to recall too, you were not in favour of him being sacked.
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Stop arguing about bloody Dickov. Most tedious thing in years on this forum and that's saying something.
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I thought we could discuss all things Rovers on here.
I suppose it makes a change from arguing about Ferguson.
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Stop arguing about bloody Dickov. Most tedious thing in years on this forum and that's saying something.
Not more tedious than his football, surely... :laugh:
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Stop arguing about bloody Dickov. Most tedious thing in years on this forum and that's saying something.
Not more tedious than his football, surely... :laugh:
Excellent point!
And yes Hound it is, but I'm just tired of the same Dickov debate, from the same people after every game. Much rather discuss any one of 5000 other Rovers-related topics.
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We were
The fact he'd had a season when we were supposed to be going straight back should emphasise the point even more that he was struggling at the end
...... but we were probably not much different to what we are doing now.
As I seem to recall too, you were not in favour of him being sacked.
He did though want Ferguson sacked, at the end of his first season.
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Obsessed with 2 years ago you my friend
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Stop arguing about bloody Dickov. Most tedious thing in years on this forum and that's saying something.
As was the football played under him, awful era & best forgotten.
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"He's (DF) obviously made a conscious effort to make us more solid and difficult to beat"
Didn't see the game but if this is how we have to play to consolidate then good, because it will force opponents to be more adventurous which will in turn lead to opportunities for us. Survive and consolidate in L1 anything more is a bonus.
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Exactly Sydney
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Another game where Marquis isn’t taking advantage of his opportunities. January has to bring changes this is becoming serious when we’ve played more games than goals scored.
how can you say that in this game, other's yes but not this one he got no support all game a d had to spend most of the game on the wing so he could get the ball
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"He's (DF) obviously made a conscious effort to make us more solid and difficult to beat"
Didn't see the game but if this is how we have to play to consolidate then good, because it will force opponents to be more adventurous which will in turn lead to opportunities for us. Survive and consolidate in L1 anything more is a bonus.
I couldn’t agree more, DF has been far too gung ho with his tactics at times.
In our current position I would be delighted if we can stay up.
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What was your expectations before this season started?
I would have thought, given the side and momentum built last season, at least challenging the playoffs ( by that I mean top-half) should have been a realistic ambition and reflective of the budget.
What is the budget? It’s the same as last season that wasn’t even the biggest in L2.
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I would be astounded if our budget is #17 in League One.
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The only play I have found tedious in our recent games was the constant lumping the ball into the air anywhere around Moore that Rotherham United were guilty of . Yes we lack a bit of speed in our forward movement at times and the Chelsea lad who was brought in may add speed when he gets fit ; May and Longbottom too. Marquis does not lack pace nor energy and was again admirable yesterday in his bursts forward
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What was your expectations before this season started?
I would have thought, given the side and momentum built last season, at least challenging the playoffs ( by that I mean top-half) should have been a realistic ambition and reflective of the budget.
What is the budget? It’s the same as last season that wasn’t even the biggest in L2.
When you say wasn't even the biggest you actually mean behind pompey, it was one of the biggest, maybe even the biggest.
The point of the budget becomes less important this season as Fergies' objective was clearly to build a squad last season, one to ultimately stop the high turnover of players costing us money. Our wage bill is almost certainly higher than our league position.
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On a separate point, Marquis had a good game yesterday. He was isolated but still held it up well and created some chances for himself. He needs a playmate up there to take a couple of defenders away from him, and a midfielder to break the line and interchange with him (Rowe on a good day)
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Copps
Do you reckon our wage bill is, say, about 10th in the division?
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I would hazard a guess our wage bill is something like 7th to 10th
That is just a guess as I do not have any info to substantiate it.
I would think that Wigan, Blackburn, Charlton, Portsmouth, Bradford possibly Rotherham, Plymouth will have a bigger budget this season.
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Rotherham’s is 4th biggest in the division I know that.
Bury’s is bigger than ours as well.
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Rotherham’s is 4th biggest in the division I know that.
Bury’s is bigger than ours as well.
Blimey, not getting much of a bang for their buck, are they? Ditto Plymouth, although their biggest problem is keeping eleven men on the park.
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Decent result yesterday and I the penny has finally dropped that we need to become hard to beat.
What concerns me is the number of poor teams we have lost to- Rochdale, Northampton, Walsall for three. Those three will all be in the bottom ten and those are teams we need to take points off.
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TRB
Walsall was an aberation. Every team has a match like that every once in a while. Rochdale was lack of concentration. Shouldn't happen but it does.
The key things for me are:
1) We've rarely been outplayed. We've been slack in matches that we shouldn't have lost, but as you say, we're addressing that.
2) Redults are unquestionable improving as a result.
I reckon we've found our feet. I hope and expect that we'll be OK from here on.
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I think the problem we might have with the wage bill is 4/5 players maximum will be on a mega amount and then a lot of others will be on peanuts in comparison.
If we got rid of one of those players on the big bucks, it'd allow us to bring in 2/3 who are on the same sort of general salary as everyone else.
That's my take on it.
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He has though been here long enough that all the recruitment and retention decisions are his and his alone. We have I think we can all safely assume at least a top half budget yet we are languishing in the bottom half and have not been out all season. We have stable, realistic and generous owners, consistently solid if not spectacular budgets and a great stadium that is churning revenue out, and very good season ticket sales. Yet we are #17 in League One and have not really moved all season. Something doesn’t quite add up.
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Why does something not add up? All you say about the budget, stadium, attendances etc don’t make any difference to individual performances.. you don’t always get the results the performances deserve, don’t always get the rub of the green..
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Because he likes to moan about Ferguson
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TRB
Walsall was an aberation. Every team has a match like that every once in a while. Rochdale was lack of concentration. Shouldn't happen but it does.
The key things for me are:
1) We've rarely been outplayed. We've been slack in matches that we shouldn't have lost, but as you say, we're addressing that.
2) Redults are unquestionable improving as a result.
I reckon we've found our feet. I hope and expect that we'll be OK from here on.
So do I but losing those games has made our record worse perhaps than it should be.
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Why does something not add up? All you say about the budget, stadium, attendances etc don’t make any difference to individual performances.. you don’t always get the results the performances deserve, don’t always get the rub of the green..
That is true enough IDM. We are though 40pc through the league season so the odd unfair result (and there have been a few, yes) should have been evened out by now.
If anyone here genuinely thinks that we are playing at, or above, our potential in this league, then please do step forward.
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TRB
I agree. But teams often take a while to find their feet in a new division.
Look at Penney's side in 03/04.
Or O'Driscoll's in 08/09.
That's why I'm more interested in the recent form (which is actually quite good - 14 points from the last 10 games including matches against 6 of the top 10 and being competitive in almost all of them) than the overall record.
If we're still averaging only a point a game overall by the New Year then my arse will start to quiver abut. But I'm not expecting that to be the case.
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TRB
I agree. But teams often take a while to find their feet in a new division.
Look at Penney's side in 03/04.
Or O'Driscoll's in 08/09.
That's why I'm more interested in the recent form (which is actually quite good - 14 points from the last 10 games including matches against 6 of the top 10 and being competitive in almost all of them) than the overall record.
If we're still averaging only a point a game overall by the New Year then my arse will start to quiver abut. But I'm not expecting that to be the case.
................and you have to look at recent form because the only benchmark that really matters is how we are playing now because decisions will be made around that. Where we need to improve, what we may have to spend during the transfer season, who needs to go on loan. We have wobbled a bit but we appear to have a platform, maybe looking back we were a bit ambitious in our playing style and DF says himself the he's surprised about the amount of money being spent in this league, or similar words.
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CBCB, you can't assume any such thing about the budget and all we know is what we're told, that is that it is 'competitive'. I would love to know where we stand wrt budgets set this season, but it's not going to be made public. So I think we really can't assume anything and, as DF has explained, he has been shocked by the amount of money being splashed around, so you could easily therefore assume that we thought we had a competitive budget but we may have since found out that it's not as competitive as we first thought.
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Let me use a blunter proxy then. We have an average home gate of 8,300 which places us at #9 in League One. Unless our owners are picking the pockets of fans, we will all things just about equal have more or less a top ten budget.
Perhaps SM could give some broad indication - do we have a top half of bottom half budget this season, as far as we know?
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CBCB
After a rocky start to the season (see my post yesterday about other successful seasons which started off badly after promotion) we have had top 10 form for the past 6, 8 and 10 games.
This is what I don't understand. We're actually in decent form and have been for 2 months or so. Yet the complaints are getting louder.
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Let me use a blunter proxy then. We have an average home gate of 8,300 which places us at #9 in League One. Unless our owners are picking the pockets of fans, we will all things just about equal have more or less a top ten budget.
Perhaps SM could give some broad indication - do we have a top half of bottom half budget this season, as far as we know?
How can you use 8,300? Not half way through the season and played the two local derbies already, that figures not entirely accurate.
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We have played nine home league games and attracted a total of 74620 people, delivering an average of 8291 per league game.
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Let me use a blunter proxy then. We have an average home gate of 8,300 which places us at #9 in League One. Unless our owners are picking the pockets of fans, we will all things just about equal have more or less a top ten budget.
Perhaps SM could give some broad indication - do we have a top half of bottom half budget this season, as far as we know?
How can you use 8,300? Not half way through the season and played the two local derbies already, that figures not entirely accurate.
Often I might agree, but in this case there is a strong case to suggest our final average might not be too far short of 8000 since our lowest attendance to date is 7194, reflecting high season ticket sales. This would put us probably at worst 10th highest (Oxford currently 11th on 7440 and Southend on 12th on 6875.
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CBCB
After a rocky start to the season (see my post yesterday about other successful seasons which started off badly after promotion) we have had top 10 form for the past 6, 8 and 10 games.
This is what I don't understand. We're actually in decent form and have been for 2 months or so. Yet the complaints are getting louder.
This will be ignored billy and then in a couple of days time he'll post the same nonsense again
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Ignoring the rather odd aggression for one moment, we are averaging 1.1 points per game and the season is 40pc gone. That form would deliver us 51 points. Last season saw the final relegation at 49 points. Bit close for comfort - particularly for a team with a budget one might reasonably assume is top 10.
See, it is possible to construct an argument without confrontation or aggression.
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CBCB
But I still don't understand why you are so determinedly ignoring the recent form.
It's been frequently pointed out that we have a squad with little Tier 3 experience. So it was perhaps unsurprising that we took some time to find our feet. Both players stepping up to the mark and manager figuring out who would make the right mix.
So surely recent form more indicative of the state of the club? In fact, if anything, it might be an underestimate, given that we've played 6 of the top 10 in the last 10 games.
If we continue the form of the last 10 games, we'll get 60 points. Which I would have snapped your hand of for at the start of the season.
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My head agrees with you BST. However we seem to have been programmed to expect a disastrous run near (2 seasons ago) or at (last year) the end of the season. So it is perhaps easy to see a small gap above the relegation places and factor in a bad run late this season and be worried.
If we can keep up recent form for another 20 games then we should be alright.
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We're doomed! apparently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7NlFWh7Sz8
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There's every reason to believe attendances will stay relatively strong.
Half season ticket prices are really good and attractive and we get a lucky run of home fixtures towards the end of the season which could pull away fans in
Blackburn, Oxford and Bradford, who will easily shift 3,000, all look like play off chasers and come to us after Easter and then we've got Wigan on the final day of the season who might need something to go up.
Throw in a cheap game with £10 tickets or whatever and that'll always attract a few passing punters.
There's no reason to believe attendances will decrease after Christmas whatsoever.
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Dutch
My two pennorth.
1) That side in 15/16 was gutless and not particularly strong. Looking at the players who played a lot of games in that run, it's not really surprising that we went down. Dickov left us with a squad where the players who had grit had no talent and the ones who had talent had no grit. And certainly Ferguson didn't help himself with his loan signings. But just look at the list of some of the players who played a large number of those games.
Evina
ATS
Lund
Calder
Stewart
Gooch
Middleton
Kids, (or good impressions of kids) let down by some woeful performances from senior pros like Tyson, Williams and Chaplow. The wonder is that Ferguson managed to take that squad to the top half before they collapsed. The current squad is stronger in pretty much every position.
2) The bad run t the end of last season and the start of this. It's no coincidence that the most important player in the squad was missing for most of that run. If Baudry stays fit this year, we're more likely to finish in the top 10 than the bottom 4.
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The bad run last season happened after promotion was secured. The players thought the job was done
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The bad run last season happened after promotion was secured. The players thought the job was done
I think it was more a situation where after promotion was secured and they had given everything they couldn't sustain it and once momentum was lost they were spent. It's seen a lot in tests where as soon as the series is secured a team can't win the final game. In this case of course it was many games but similar situation.
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Back to 2015/16's players. You have to feel for Lyndon Gooch.
The lad's made 31 league appearances for us and Sunderland. He's been in the winning side twice. Once when he came on as a sub in the 84th minute once when he came on in the 89th minute. (Neither of them for us of course...)
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The bad run last season happened after promotion was secured. The players thought the job was done
So did the manager.
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Dutch
My two pennorth.
1) That side in 15/16 was gutless and not particularly strong. Looking at the players who played a lot of games in that run, it's not really surprising that we went down. Dickov left us with a squad where the players who had grit had no talent and the ones who had talent had no grit. And certainly Ferguson didn't help himself with his loan signings. But just look at the list of some of the players who played a large number of those games.
Evina
ATS
Lund
Calder
Stewart
Gooch
Middleton
Kids, (or good impressions of kids) let down by some woeful performances from senior pros like Tyson, Williams and Chaplow. The wonder is that Ferguson managed to take that squad to the top half before they collapsed. The current squad is stronger in pretty much every position.
2) The bad run t the end of last season and the start of this. It's no coincidence that the most important player in the squad was missing for most of that run. If Baudry stays fit this year, we're more likely to finish in the top 10 than the bottom 4.
Gooch only made 10 appearances and Calder had 12.
Some of those would have been sub appearances.
Also DF didnt help the situation by setting the team up to play in a way that didn't work with the players he had at the time.
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Actually Ferguson issued a public ‘call to arms’ urging the players to push on for the title.
If memory serves me correct, we then failed to win another game, losing almost all of them.
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Actually Ferguson issued a public ‘call to arms’ urging the players to push on for the title.
If memory serves me correct, we then failed to win another game, losing almost all of them.
Don’t you just hate it when than happens !
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Actually Ferguson issued a public ‘call to arms’ urging the players to push on for the title.
If memory serves me correct, we then failed to win another game, losing almost all of them.
He let them go out on the piss to celebrate promotion before the season had finished, which I thought was bad considering the job of winning the title wasn't done. He since admitted it was a mistake.
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Let me use a blunter proxy then. We have an average home gate of 8,300 which places us at #9 in League One. Unless our owners are picking the pockets of fans, we will all things just about equal have more or less a top ten budget.
Perhaps SM could give some broad indication - do we have a top half of bottom half budget this season, as far as we know?
Unless our owners are picking the pockets of fans? Seriously? Would that be to suppose that football clubs break even based on attendances? Surely not. All things simply are not equal in that assumption so it’s worthless.
I think our average attendances have increased because the owners have made a noticeable effort to set prices for the younger market aimed at growing the future of the club. I’m very happy with that, but I fail to see how it indicates where our transfer budget ranks in this division. I haven’t got a clue on that, neither have you.
What I do know is that we’ve started in a way that is around what you’d expect from a mid table team. And before the season began, most sounded like they would be happy with that. In doing so, it’s particularly important to be able to go away from home and pick up points like the one on Saturday. It’ll be even harder tonight.
What really does need to improve if we are to push on is the home form. I think everyone knows that. Going away to a play off chasing team and coming back with a point and a clean sheet is a sign of increasing resilience, even if it’s not pretty. There have been many times that people have called for just that.
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It would be hard I would think not to accept the general rule that bigger attendences = bigger budgets. There may be some exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions.
I think the owners have done a fantastic job. The point is that we are sixth from bottom and have rarely risen higher all season - yet it would be hard to imagine that our budget is the sixth smallest. Indeed, we are told that it is “competitive” which most folk would accept means around average. We have though been consistently below average this season.
I also agree that the owners have made a welcome decision to keep season ticket prices down as much as possible. However, relatively for this league they are quite high. The average adult season ticket price is only beaten by six other clubs and the average young adult season ticket is around average for the league. For kids it is obviously a lot better.
Also interested in the mid-table end point argument. There could be a reason for this, but why would a mid-table finish be expected to start with an early season performance that has consistently been in the bottom quarter? It could end up mid-table, but equally a club like Shrewsbury could collapse and end up mid-table. As I say, there could be a reason to suggest as you have, but I have missed this.
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CBCB
why would a mid-table finish be expected to start with an early season performance that has consistently been in the bottom quarter?
But as I keep pointing out and you keep ignoring, we HAVEN'T consistently been in bottom quarter form.
We were at the start of the season. Just like Penney's team in 03/04 and O'Driscoll's team in 08/09. For the past 10 games, we've been in top 10 form. It's not stretching it too far to say that with a very small amount of luck, we would have been in play-off form over the past 10 games.
Strange that you won't acknowledge that.
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Comrade.
I did not use “form” in the highlighted section. I used “performance”.
We have not I think been out of the bottom quarter since August. Perhaps on the odd day or so. That suggests strongly a bottom quarter performance.
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CBCB
I'm trying to help you here mate. You're in danger of making the mistake that I made in 07/08 and 08/09.
My mistake then was being so convinced of the shortcomings of our manager that, by this time of the season, I was looking only at the overall "performance" (which was dire) and I was ignoring fact that performances on the pitch and results were starting to turn round.
In both cases, I was extrapolating the "performance" of the first 15-18 matches through to the end of the season and expecting that we were in for an unsuccessful time. I over-focussed on the shortcomings and stayed blind to the improvements. I ended up looking a bit daft as a result.
Don't take it personally if I say I hope and think you and Copps might end up looking a bit daft over your anslyses here.
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Bury and Plymouth would need to start playing title winning form to catch us or we would have to significantly drop our form.
So two places left
This struck me as a highly optimistic statement when I read it, and it looks even more so after last night's results.
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Five of the six teams below us picked up points last night.
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Bury and Plymouth would need to start playing title winning form to catch us or we would have to significantly drop our form.
So two places left
This struck me as a highly optimistic statement when I read it, and it looks even more so after last night's results.
The point was, people were saying if we carry on at our ppg for the rest of the season we will end up with 51 points, and for bury and Plymouth to reach 51 points they would need almost promotion form
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Five of the six teams below us picked up points last night.
Rochdale and Northampton both lost
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Yeah you are right, i feel much better now that only four of the six picked up points.
Do you feel as though we have spoken about this before ?
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Ha
Well don't put the same incorrect things on two different posts then 👍
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Ha
Well don't put the same incorrect things on two different posts then 👍
mmmmmm, you did correct me on two posts though. :crying:
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To be fair though, a few weeks ago we won a game (might've been Bury, might've been before that) and gained points on almost the entire division because there were about 8 draws in 12 matches. Ebb and flow of a football season.
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Bury and Plymouth would need to start playing title winning form to catch us or we would have to significantly drop our form.
So two places left
This struck me as a highly optimistic statement when I read it, and it looks even more so after last night's results.
The point was, people were saying if we carry on at our ppg for the rest of the season we will end up with 51 points, and for bury and Plymouth to reach 51 points they would need almost promotion form
You do talk some nonsense most of the time Dickos. Wigan are going at 2.17ppg. For Bury to get 51 points they need to go at 1.3ppg, not even close to 'almost promotion form'.
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To get to the playoffs you need around 1.4-1.5 ppg. For them to get to 51 points they'd need 1.3 so not far off really is it.
And as they're current rate is 0.84 it's quite a significant improvement needed.
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Play offs !!! :headbang:
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Play offs !!! :headbang:
Are you thinking that Dickos is suggesting that we might get to the play offs ?
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Probably