Brexit Negotiations

[SydneyRover]

Hoola, I don't know anybody who is against immigrants coming into the country to work and not rip the system off. Not wanting immigrants who are here to rip the system off isn't racism. The same people don't want British people ripping the system off either.

In my humble, and unqualified opinion, I reckon that's the main reason why the vote went tits up.

It's hard to know where to start when faced with such misrepresentation of facts, it's not the people you seek to blame for the problems in the UK but those listed in the Paradise Papers, those that control the money and power, those that allow zero hours contracts etc etc, these rent seekers do far more damage than any number of immigrants.

[hoolahoop]

Hoola, I don't know anybody who is against immigrants coming into the country to work and not rip the system off. Not wanting immigrants who are here to rip the system off isn't racism. The same people don't want British people ripping the system off either.

In my humble, and unqualified opinion, I reckon that's the main reason why the vote went tits up.

Bentley there is NO evidence to support the idea that masses of EU immigrants are leaching on this country - unless you read and believe the claptrap being fed to you and others daily in the The Sun / Ex press and more especially The fecking Mail . Quite simply our own Home Office has sat on their hands and not used the powers they have under EU rules to get rid of those that aren't or weren't prepared to work.

[hoolahoop]

I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.

I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?

Pleased you had the common sense
Yes huge risks for little return
It should be
No its not as the experts ( not the Far Right ) know.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.

I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?

Pleased you had the common sense
Yes huge risks for little return
It should be
No its not as the experts ( not the Far Right ) know.

With risk comes potential - granted it's not being managed well to unleash potential but it's there.

[hoolahoop]

Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?

Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP  to be used in English papers .

[hoolahoop]

I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.

I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?

Pleased you had the common sense
Yes huge risks for little return
It should be
No its not as the experts ( not the Far Right ) know.

With risk comes potential - granted it's not being managed well to unleash potential but it's there.

You don't take huge risks from a point of weakness -  surely an Accountant would never advise that .

Virtually all our Services are over- stretched because of lack of funding, our national debt has almost reached £ 2 trillion and counting. We have few natural resources and a non- productive industrial Base at its weakest for aeons why would you take risks bfyp ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP

Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?

Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP  to be used in English papers .

It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.

[idler]

I voted leave and stand by it to an extent.
I didn't want a more federal Europe. David Cameron got no offers of any value to keep us there.
The EU ar now re-thinking it's stance after our vote but would it have done so if we voted remain? I don't think so.
Both sides contributed to the vote but if the EU had or did make concessions them maybe progress would be quicker.
Surely a hard Brexit benefits neither side and no right minded person on either side wants it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler

Good post until the final sentence.

Have a look at page 5 here.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4y1e1sdlwa/InternalResults_171024_VI.pdf

30% of the electorate, 52% of Tory supporters and 58% of Leave voters think that if we have a Hard Brexit without an agreement on our future relationship with the EU, it will either have no consequence or it will be a good/very good thing. Oh aye, and Liam Fox said last week that it wouldn't be a disaster if we left without a deal. And May keeps parroting that line that No Deal Is Better Than A Bad Deal.

As things currently stand, there is a very real, and increasing chance that we WILL leave without an agreement. Because, as I posted back up the thread, the Tories cannot agree to the EU terms in the three pre-requisites (money we owe, Irish border and the status of UK-based EU citizens) without tearing themselves apart.

I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing happened in the last 16 months to suggest that we are anywhere near sorting those things out. And even if we did so tomorrow, we only have 6-8 months left to sort out all the very complex details about what our future relationship with the EU will be.

Finally, there was a massive problem raised last week, which has had virtually no news coverage. Both May and Corbyn say that they want us out of the Single Market, but with tariff-free access to it. But the EU has just signed trade deals with Canada and S Korea, which include the undertaking that the EU will not sign a trade deal with any other non-Single Market country that gives that country a better deal than Canada and S Korea have got. But they haven't got tariff-free access so we can't.

So, at best, any deal we get will involve tariffs on a huge proportion of our imports and exports. Which really WOULD be a major problem.

[SydneyRover]

These are people are just the tip of the iceberg and they are the ones that should be on the receiving end of our wrath because they are doing the most harm:Jimmy Carr, Lewis Hamilton, Lord Ashcroft, Rupert Murdoch, Mike Ashley, Philip Green the list is endless and they are taking the British public for a ride. If these people were brought into line and subject to the same scrutiny of the taxman as is the average paye citizen there would be plenty for all.

[idler]

Idler

Good post until the final sentence.

Have a look at page 5 here.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4y1e1sdlwa/InternalResults_171024_VI.pdf

30% of the electorate, 52% of Tory supporters and 58% of Leave voters think that if we have a Hard Brexit without an agreement on our future relationship with the EU, it will either have no consequence or it will be a good/very good thing. Oh aye, and Liam Fox said last week that it wouldn't be a disaster if we left without a deal. And May keeps parroting that line that No Deal Is Better Than A Bad Deal.

As things currently stand, there is a very real, and increasing chance that we WILL leave without an agreement. Because, as I posted back up the thread, the Tories cannot agree to the EU terms in the three pre-requisites (money we owe, Irish border and the status of UK-based EU citizens) without tearing themselves apart.

I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing happened in the last 16 months to suggest that we are anywhere near sorting those things out. And even if we did so tomorrow, we only have 6-8 months left to sort out all the very complex details about what our future relationship with the EU will be.

Finally, there was a massive problem raised last week, which has had virtually no news coverage. Both May and Corbyn say that they want us out of the Single Market, but with tariff-free access to it. But the EU has just signed trade deals with Canada and S Korea, which include the undertaking that the EU will not sign a trade deal with any other non-Single Market country that gives that country a better deal than Canada and S Korea have got. But they haven't got tariff-free access so we can't.

So, at best, any deal we get will involve tariffs on a huge proportion of our imports and exports. Which really WOULD be a major problem.

Thanks for that Billy.
I just find it hard to believe that supposedly very intelligent people cannot see the benefit of a mutual agreement. It's like getting divorced, the more acrimonious it is the more that the lawyers take out of the pot.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP

Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.

Someone had to try it once...

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I voted remain because of the risk involved in leaving because it meant going into unknown territory. It's still unknown territory as far as I know, but the negativity of other remain voters seems to be relentless.

I wonder if that negativity is actually making matters worse?

Pleased you had the common sense
Yes huge risks for little return
It should be
No its not as the experts ( not the Far Right ) know.

With risk comes potential - granted it's not being managed well to unleash potential but it's there.

You don't take huge risks from a point of weakness -  surely an Accountant would never advise that .

Virtually all our Services are over- stretched because of lack of funding, our national debt has almost reached £ 2 trillion and counting. We have few natural resources and a non- productive industrial Base at its weakest for aeons why would you take risks bfyp ?

Actually some (not all, many are very risk averse) accountants would advise taking an element of risk as playing too safe can get you nowhere.  I'm not sure many would have risked Brexit though.

We could go round in circles, but you kind of answer my point there, if it's so bad then trying something different isn't necessarily a bad thing is it?  But it's all about the application.

[hoolahoop]

Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?

Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP  to be used in English papers .

It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.

Of course it was and the source of the money .....Russia ?

[hoolahoop]

BFYP

Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.

I think we will end up hovering over the cliff- far poorer, more divided and even less influence than we currently enjoy.

However we will eventually run out of fuel.....

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP

Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.

Someone had to try it once...

Aye. Glad it was someone else who tried that out, not me.

Reminds me of a comment by the Conservative Transport Minister back in the 90s. He puffed out his chest and boasted that Britain was leading the way in privatising railways. No other country in the world had done it how we were doing it. Breaking up the nationalised monopoly into a company who would run the track and several companies who would run the trains.

That turned out well...

Within half a decade, we had a string of fatal accidents due to poor track/signal maintenance. Railtrack being re-nationalised. Seversl years of the network being a catastrophe as a crash programme of emergency repairs was instigated by the nationalised Network Rail. Meanwhile the train operating companies were set up as mini, local monopolies. With the result that we have the most over crowded and expensive trains in Western Europe.

With the trains, so with Brexit. It's not smart to be the first one to do something utterly stupid. There's a reason why sane people prefer not to take stupid risks. I'm all for taking risks. But if you do, you want to have some idea what the consequence of it going wrong will be. And that there is a potential prize worth the risk.

Otherwise you're just f**king irresponsible.

[BillyStubbsTears]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41908302

Head of the NHS

"Trust in democratic politics will not be strengthened if anyone now tries to argue, 'You voted Brexit, partly for a better funded health service. But precisely because of Brexit, you now can't have one."

[Glyn_Wigley]

Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?

Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP  to be used in English papers .

It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.

Of course it was and the source of the money .....Russia ?

It's not what I've heard. It was more the rich home-grown Brexiteers who don't want their finances scrutinised very much.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BFYP

Aye. If you jump off a cliff, you might find you have the potential to fly.

Someone had to try it once...

Did they take 60 million people with them?

[hoolahoop]

Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?

Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP  to be used in English papers .

It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.

Of course it was and the source of the money .....Russia ?

It's not what I've heard. It was more the rich home-grown Brexiteers who don't want their finances scrutinised very much.

That's very true however - many of those involved in the Trump fiasco with fb and twitter manipulating public perceptions with alt facts are involved in this . Farage , Bannon,  Trump etc are all intertwined only our Parliament would prefer not to see what I think is about to unfold from the FBI investigations . There's plenty of dirty Russian money washing through the City

[SydneyRover]

Barnier asks May a very fundamental question and the answer will affect us all. It goes to the heart of Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/09/germany-leading-push-stricter-eu-line-brexit-talks-uk-chief-negotiator-financial-settlement

[BillyStubbsTears]

While we're talking about Putin bankrolling politicians who want to weaken the UK...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41934399

[SydneyRover]

While we're talking about Putin bankrolling politicians who want to weaken the UK...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41934399

Lots of ex politicians have no shame.

[RedJ]

I know a lot of people think most if not all politicians are self serving Kitsons but Salmond is pretty much right at the top of the list.

[SydneyRover]

There is still plenty of room to move!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/brexit-date-is-not-irreversible-says-man-who-wrote-article-50-lord-kerr

[MachoMadness]

I watched the new episode of South Park last night. It was one of the best pieces of satire I've seen in years, focusing on the regretful Trump voter and the sycophants in government who support him against their better judgement and morals. It compares the Trump presidency to an abusive relationship, where the abused party constantly faces questions about why they're sticking it out, which in turn makes them feel stupid and causes them to double down, becoming overly defensive even in the face of all logic and reason. I couldn't help thinking how much of it applied to Brexit too. The Brexit voters are the abused ones here, they're the ones who will feel the effects of this and will get dicked over the most while Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage and co get the big tax breaks and feather their own nests.

Definitely do seek it out even if you're not a fan of the show. There is more to it that I didn't mention above, but it offers a lot of food for thought for such a scatological show.

[SydneyRover]

"Who is really destroying this country? People who don’t wear poppies or people who don’t pay their taxes so we can fund public services?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-leave-vote-remembrance-sunday-dont-bother-wearing-a-poppy-a8043711.html

[SydneyRover]

How do you like your steak?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/sex-slang-steak-views-leave-remain-worlds-apart

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's a thorny little problem.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeanneBartram/status/931940574529249280/photo/1

Or maybe this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RettopNoj/status/919087078469722112/photo/1

Still. Never mind. Boris reckons it's not beyond the wit of man to sort it out, so I'm sure it's all in hand.