Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: silent majority on August 07, 2020, 01:49:56 pm
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As expected;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53696424
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So the fines ans sanctions could be negligible should the club in question get promoted or become pointless if it takes along time for the efl to act?
What has happened to the pfa and rovers query over the legality of this?
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Rovers never queried it? I expect we voted in favour.
It's a good move for the game at our level in my opinion.
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Surely it just gives the relegated teams a big advantage.
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The gap between the Championship and L1 gets ever wider!
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Surely it just gives the relegated teams a big advantage.
To a point it does. So those players who are on continuous contracts have their salary measured as the average for that division. But with relegation clauses in a lot of contracts these days it might not be the advantage you think it is.
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How can Sunderland be made to have the same budget as Crewe when their income will be ten times as much probably. It’s nonsense.
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Surely it just gives the relegated teams a big advantage.
To a point it does. So those players who are on continuous contracts have their salary measured as the average for that division. But with relegation clauses in a lot of contracts these days it might not be the advantage you think it is.
The average championship wage will be ten times the average L1 wage. It’s stupid.
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A very sensible move and I look forward to seeing what this means for clubs who have already
committed to pay salaries that take them over the limit .
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How can Sunderland be made to have the same budget as Crewe when their income will be ten times as much probably. It’s nonsense.
Its an argument I've heard a lot of in the last few weeks. But, the problem is that football is in a very, very, difficult place and needs extreme help. So, unless anything else can kick in during the next few weeks then it is what it is.
We can't judge this based on how things have been.
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Surely it just gives the relegated teams a big advantage.
To a point it does. So those players who are on continuous contracts have their salary measured as the average for that division. But with relegation clauses in a lot of contracts these days it might not be the advantage you think it is.
The average championship wage will be ten times the average L1 wage. It’s stupid.
Not if you have relegation clauses built into your contract. And not all members of that squad will have continuous contracts either.
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It may not affect that many, Graing. The Clubs with big squads, maybe, but how many players in those squads are u21?
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How can Sunderland be made to have the same budget as Crewe when their income will be ten times as much probably. It’s nonsense.
Its an argument I've heard a lot of in the last few weeks. But, the problem is that football is in a very, very, difficult place and needs extreme help. So, unless anything else can kick in during the next few weeks then it is what it is.
We can't judge this based on how things have been.
Why couldn’t it be set as a % of revenue and policed strictly?
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How can Sunderland be made to have the same budget as Crewe when their income will be ten times as much probably. It’s nonsense.
Its an argument I've heard a lot of in the last few weeks. But, the problem is that football is in a very, very, difficult place and needs extreme help. So, unless anything else can kick in during the next few weeks then it is what it is.
We can't judge this based on how things have been.
Why couldn’t it be set as a % of revenue and policed strictly?
You mean how it's done today?
Look how well that works.
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Gaz,
That would just encourage some to artificially inflate revenue....pretend sponsorship etc.
Not saying this is perfect, because the wage differential between L1 and the Champ becomes a potential disincentive to promotion....can a club afford to be promoted?
Lets see how it goes, and how some try to play the system!
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How can Sunderland be made to have the same budget as Crewe when their income will be ten times as much probably. It’s nonsense.
Its an argument I've heard a lot of in the last few weeks. But, the problem is that football is in a very, very, difficult place and needs extreme help. So, unless anything else can kick in during the next few weeks then it is what it is.
We can't judge this based on how things have been.
Why couldn’t it be set as a % of revenue and policed strictly?
You mean how it's done today?
Look how well that works.
It’s a system that can potentially work though surely.
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A very sensible move and I look forward to seeing what this means for clubs who have already
committed to pay salaries that take them over the limit .
Don’t contracts agreed prior to this vote stay the same as agreed.
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How can Sunderland be made to have the same budget as Crewe when their income will be ten times as much probably. It’s nonsense.
Its an argument I've heard a lot of in the last few weeks. But, the problem is that football is in a very, very, difficult place and needs extreme help. So, unless anything else can kick in during the next few weeks then it is what it is.
We can't judge this based on how things have been.
Why couldn’t it be set as a % of revenue and policed strictly?
You mean how it's done today?
Look how well that works.
It’s a system that can potentially work though surely.
I think a hybrid system would have been better. Take the elements of SCMP that works, and throw in a cap of some sort and get that to work would be OK, certainly for a club like ours too. But, you must understand football is in a bad place, something needed to happen quickly.
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We'll get a chance to see how good some managers really are. Yes I'm thinking of you Fergie.
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Just out of interest does this now make us more sustainable? Will we still need the levels of financial input a year from our owners we've been accustomed to?
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Is this the first step to getting some sort of financial support package approved for league’s 1 and 2?
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We'll get a chance to see how good some managers really are. Yes I'm thinking of you Fergie.
To be fair the one thing Ferguson was good at was finding good young players.
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Is this the first step to getting some sort of financial support package approved for league’s 1 and 2?
Yes, I would say it is.
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We'll get a chance to see how good some managers really are. Yes I'm thinking of you Fergie.
To be fair the one thing Ferguson was good at was finding good young players.
To be fair listening to Peterborough’s Chairman they have a big squad now so Ferguson won’t be looking for many.
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I think it's the right thing going forward and will make it much more of a level playing field. Yes there are big weaknesses but arguably are we not better off having a league that is about building strong teams not building the most expensive?
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We'll get a chance to see how good some managers really are. Yes I'm thinking of you Fergie.
To be fair the one thing Ferguson was good at was finding good young players.
To be fair listening to Peterborough’s Chairman they have a big squad now so Ferguson won’t be looking for many.
I could be wrong here, but I thought there was to be a cap on the size of the squad as well?
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Be interesting to see how Fleetwood get on without the massive income from renting an office to the chairman
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Out of interest what was our wage budget last season and the season before? Would we have been within this new cap?
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Is there a clause in the new rule preventing circumvention by loading what would have counted as wages into a player's signing-on fee (ie wages upfront but called something else)?
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What are repercussions for squad sizes or length of contracts as players won’t want to sign for more than year and development squads will suffer as their wages will hit the hardest .
This will stifle growth and ambition.clubs are reliant on loan player who may well be on larger contracts size to play along side L1/L2 players so what does this do for loyalty .
This is bad news for many clubs who’s budgets ARE affordable and want to attract better players .Over all squads sizes will be effected . If this was SO important why was it not proposed years before , as many clubs before Bolton or Bury have had their points deducted and risen from the ashes to be successful clubs Southampton, Leicester Leeds etc.. EVERY player has the right to be paid his or her worth as they are they once who put bums on seats and bring in the revenue . Too many clubs will attempt to break the rules as punishment will be worth it if means promotion . We will be watching disgruntled players who just want to leave and get away as soon as each season is finished.. All that will be on offer is youth teams without any quality ..as players will drift away to pastures new.
Apparently the PFA has said “it is unlawful and unenforceable “. Let’s hope so !!
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Ronnie, i think it was stated we were just slightly higher last season but do not know about the season before, I am sure that Gavin stated there would be very little difference.
1969, I disagree it has been stated that the cap is only slightly less than our budget last season, and also stated we were in the top half of that division in budgets so quite a few teams were within the cap last season, also the one with the lowest budget Wycombe got promotion.
What it does stop is sides like Portsmouth and Hull coming along as they did last season and doubling one of our players wages, so our standard will not suffer so much, and those clubs will no longer just depend on a check book to be top dogs. It works both ways, of course clubs may just go for one or two highly paid players and fill the rest with five very good loan players from the premiership and could result in feeder clubs by the back door.
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Is there a clause in the new rule preventing circumvention by loading what would have counted as wages into a player's signing-on fee (ie wages upfront but called something else)?
That BBC article in the OP seems to think so. It explicitly mentions bonuses and agents fees, which you imagine would cover what you mention. There'll be clubs who push it in some other way though! I remember it being a problem in Rugby Union recently.
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How can Sunderland be made to have the same budget as Crewe when their income will be ten times as much probably. It’s nonsense.
To teach them how to budget and stop pissing money up the wall!
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Is there a clause in the new rule preventing circumvention by loading what would have counted as wages into a player's signing-on fee (ie wages upfront but called something else)?
That BBC article in the OP seems to think so. It explicitly mentions bonuses and agents fees, which you imagine would cover what you mention. There'll be clubs who push it in some other way though! I remember it being a problem in Rugby Union recently.
Saracens I think it was, they got a right f**king off the RFU though didn't they?
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Ronnie, i think it was stated we were just slightly higher last season but do not know about the season before, I am sure that Gavin stated there would be very little difference.
1969, I disagree it has been stated that the cap is only slightly less than our budget last season, and also stated we were in the top half of that division in budgets so quite a few teams were within the cap last season, also the one with the lowest budget Wycombe got promotion.
What it does stop is sides like Portsmouth and Hull coming along as they did last season and doubling one of our players wages, so our standard will not suffer so much, and those clubs will no longer just depend on a check book to be top dogs. It works both ways, of course clubs may just go for one or two highly paid players and fill the rest with five very good loan players from the premiership and could result in feeder clubs by the back door.
It is free enterprise and those who pay the bill should have the right say . It’s the punishment that’s wrong and the over seeing of clubs . If a club can’t pay it players wages then the punishment of points deduction should be instant and no be allowed to be dragged on until the club folds . Wages are not the biggest problem it’s contract lengths and agents fees with all the undisclosed add ons . Every transaction should be in the public domain and ban undisclosed fees statements. This agreement weakens players opportunities to earn their worth . Clubs WILL regret this day as it fails their supporters and will restrict ambition. Clubs will trawl the lower leagues for free players and turn out youth teams players on £300 a week mascarading as Professionals .
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it's a good idea in principle but I think it'll have very little impact.
The good boys will tow the line and the bad boys will just ignore it......unless the penalties are eye watering severe.
I doubt that they will be and teams will break the cap to gamble on getting promotion.
If they are promoted will that still count or will it be null and void?
Will teams breaking the cap get relegated like Saracens in Rugby?
Does the EFL have everything covered in detail so there is no confusion when a cap breaker is found?
"NO" x 3 is my guess.........
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Ronnie, i think it was stated we were just slightly higher last season but do not know about the season before, I am sure that Gavin stated there would be very little difference.
1969, I disagree it has been stated that the cap is only slightly less than our budget last season, and also stated we were in the top half of that division in budgets so quite a few teams were within the cap last season, also the one with the lowest budget Wycombe got promotion.
What it does stop is sides like Portsmouth and Hull coming along as they did last season and doubling one of our players wages, so our standard will not suffer so much, and those clubs will no longer just depend on a check book to be top dogs. It works both ways, of course clubs may just go for one or two highly paid players and fill the rest with five very good loan players from the premiership and could result in feeder clubs by the back door.
It is free enterprise and those who pay the bill should have the right say . It’s the punishment that’s wrong and the over seeing of clubs . If a club can’t pay it players wages then the punishment of points deduction should be instant and no be allowed to be dragged on until the club folds . Wages are not the biggest problem it’s contract lengths and agents fees with all the undisclosed add ons . Every transaction should be in the public domain and ban undisclosed fees statements. This agreement weakens players opportunities to earn their worth . Clubs WILL regret this day as it fails their supporters and will restrict ambition. Clubs will trawl the lower leagues for free players and turn out youth teams players on £300 a week mascarading as Professionals .
Sorry that is b*llocks.
There may be some players who feel disenfranchised with lower wages but it may be a case of take it or leave it. We may even get better quality players, who join because of managerial characters like DM, because they can’t be poached by other clubs paying more.
Don’t forget football finances on the lower leagues are in a terrible situation with the pandemic, who’s to say that in a season or two the level of the salary cap may rise once football finances are in a better place.
Would you rather be a league 1 pro footballer facing a pay cut with little other choice, or an airline pilot losing your job completely with nothing else available.? Or a pub worker losing their job.?
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Bit more detail set out by Hoden in the DFP;
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/explained-how-new-squad-salary-caps-league-one-will-affect-clubs-including-doncaster-rovers-2936369
Wait for the loopholes to emerge.
I reckon there should be an offence of"failing to keep the ethics of the rules", to trip up the serial cheats.
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This is the media release;
‘SQUAD SALARY CAPS’ INTRODUCED IN LEAGUE ONE AND LEAGUE TWO
Clubs in League One and League Two have today voted for the introduction of new financial controls in the form of ‘Squad Salary Caps’ into their respective divisions which take effect immediately.
The decision follows extensive and comprehensive consultation with all Clubs in respect of addressing sustainability and wage inflation issues across the EFL which were initiated prior to the suspension of football in March following the COVID-19 outbreak and have continued during the course of the summer.
Those discussions culminated in today’s divisional vote, with representatives of League One and League Two Clubs opting to implement the new measures in place of the existing Salary Cost Management Protocols (SCMP), with fixed caps of £2.5million and £1.5million respectively.
Discussions continue with Championship Clubs in respect to amendments to their own financial controls. League One and Two Clubs are also going to continue discussions towards the introduction of additional measures aimed at addressing Club financial sustainability.
When calculating total salary spending, the ‘cap’ includes:
• Basic Wages;
• Taxes;
• Bonuses;
• Image rights;
• Agents’ fees and;
• Other fees and expenses paid directly or indirectly to all registered players.
Payments directly linked to a Club’s progression in cup competitions or promotion are excluded from the Cap, while any income generated from players going out on loan is deducted from the Club’s Salary Cap calculation.
Transition arrangements have been incorporated in respect of a Club’s squad salary cap calculation with the key element of these aimed at addressing committed contracts and relegated Clubs. Any contract entered into on or prior to today’s vote will be capped at an agreed divisional average until that contract expires. Moving forwards, Clubs that are relegated will be permitted to cap all contracts at the divisional average prior to the Club’s relegation until those contracts expire.
An ‘overrun’ concept is also included if a Club’s total squad salary payments exceed the Cap by up to 5%, whereby dependent on the percentage level of the overrun, a financial penalty would be payable for every £1 in excess. Clubs exceeding the ‘overrun’ would be referred to an Independent Disciplinary Commission, although the EFL will monitor the Cap on a real-time basis throughout the season as is the current position with SCMP measures across the two divisions. Where breaches do occur, sanction guidelines are in place to be considered as appropriate by an independent Disciplinary Commission.
EFL CEO, David Baldwin said: “The term ‘salary cap’ is an emotive one, creating the impression of a restrictive measure but we are clear in our view that this is neither the objective nor the likely effect of these changes to EFL Regulations. The financial impact of Covid-19 will be profound for EFL Clubs and today’s vote will help ensure Clubs cannot extend themselves to the point that could cause financial instability.
“Over the last two weeks the discussions amongst Clubs in both Leagues One and Two have been healthy and constructive, allowing us to reach a clear consensus today and I am pleased that the Clubs have determined to adopt the new approach. We will now work with all Clubs, the PFA and, where appropriate, other stakeholders to implement the new rules and continue our efforts to bring long-term sustainability to the EFL.”
---ENDS
The key features of the new measures for League One and League Two include:
• Fixed Squad Salary caps of £2.5m / £1.5m in each of Leagues One and Two.
o This is not an individual cap.
o As long as the Clubs stays within the Squad Cap, there is no restriction on what an individual Player can be paid.
• The EFL will monitor the Cap on a real-time basis throughout the season to prevent Clubs signing players that would result in them exceeding the Cap as is the current position with SCMP measures across the two divisions.
• Amounts will be index linked to reflect changes in domestic broadcast revenues.
• The following Players are excluded from the calculations:
o any Under 21 Player; and
o in Season 2020/21, any Player not included in the Club’s Squad List.
• The following amounts are excluded from the calculations:
o promotion bonuses
o severance pay under clause 19 of the standard player contract; and
o cup bonuses in any squad bonus schedule
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Silly question, but do players under 21 mean players in any U21 squad, or first team players who happen to be under 21 in age, by a certain date.?
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Silly question, but do players under 21 mean players in any U21 squad, or first team players who happen to be under 21 in age, by a certain date.?
Believe it's the latter.
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Does anyone have a copy of these "sanction guidelines" That the independent review body will refer to?
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Ronnie, i think it was stated we were just slightly higher last season but do not know about the season before, I am sure that Gavin stated there would be very little difference.
1969, I disagree it has been stated that the cap is only slightly less than our budget last season, and also stated we were in the top half of that division in budgets so quite a few teams were within the cap last season, also the one with the lowest budget Wycombe got promotion.
What it does stop is sides like Portsmouth and Hull coming along as they did last season and doubling one of our players wages, so our standard will not suffer so much, and those clubs will no longer just depend on a check book to be top dogs. It works both ways, of course clubs may just go for one or two highly paid players and fill the rest with five very good loan players from the premiership and could result in feeder clubs by the back door.
It is free enterprise and those who pay the bill should have the right say . It’s the punishment that’s wrong and the over seeing of clubs . If a club can’t pay it players wages then the punishment of points deduction should be instant and no be allowed to be dragged on until the club folds . Wages are not the biggest problem it’s contract lengths and agents fees with all the undisclosed add ons . Every transaction should be in the public domain and ban undisclosed fees statements. This agreement weakens players opportunities to earn their worth . Clubs WILL regret this day as it fails their supporters and will restrict ambition. Clubs will trawl the lower leagues for free players and turn out youth teams players on £300 a week mascarading as Professionals .
Sorry that is b*llocks.
There may be some players who feel disenfranchised with lower wages but it may be a case of take it or leave it. We may even get better quality players, who join because of managerial characters like DM, because they can’t be poached by other clubs paying more.
Don’t forget football finances on the lower leagues are in a terrible situation with the pandemic, who’s to say that in a season or two the level of the salary cap may rise once football finances are in a better place.
Would you rather be a league 1 pro footballer facing a pay cut with little other choice, or an airline pilot losing your job completely with nothing else available.? Or a pub worker losing their job.?
The EFL has had years to sort out a format based on the income of a club and who can demonstrate due diligence and sound management.
To lump all the clubs under one format is insane and detrimental to a players future-prospects as lowering bar will only lesson the abilities of clubs to progress , some will only pay peanuts and not build competitive clubs . Sport should be for growth not the stifled owner who just wants write his tax return on loans to a football club . No owner should be allowed to put professional football back in the days of wage constraints. There was nothing wrong with the way it was only COVID-19 is keeping it from started nothing more . The PL is to blame for that ills football as they pay nothing to the lower leagues in situations like this .
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I don't see how anyone could look at the farce that was last season, with Bolton and Bury in our League, Charlton, Wigan, and Wednesday in the league above, and a lot more I'm probably forgetting, and say that football was doing just fine.
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This is about wage constraints illegal in any language!!
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We'll get a chance to see how good some managers really are. Yes I'm thinking of you Fergie.
To be fair the one thing Ferguson was good at was finding good young players.
No way near as good as barry fry.
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This is about wage constraints illegal in any language!!
Individual wages aren’t constrained though are they.?
And where is it illegal that an organisation can’t impose a salary cap anyway.?
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This is about wage constraints illegal in any language!!
No it’s not, you can pay a player what you like as long as the wage bill is under the cap
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Surely it just gives the relegated teams a big advantage.
To a point it does. So those players who are on continuous contracts have their salary measured as the average for that division. But with relegation clauses in a lot of contracts these days it might not be the advantage you think it is.
The average championship wage will be ten times the average L1 wage. It’s stupid.
it int nonsense if we want all clubs to survive and not go out of business, it seems the PFA want that with saying it is illegal
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The fact bonuses from cup competitions are exempt might make for some players to try that little bit harder in cup matches if that's the only way clubs can pay players more?
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It might also encourage clubs to play fringe players in cup competitions to avoid having to pay bonuses.
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This is about wage constraints illegal in any language!!
No it’s not, you can pay a player what you like as long as the wage bill is under the cap
Then you can’t pay him what you want then !!!
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Surely it just gives the relegated teams a big advantage.
To a point it does. So those players who are on continuous contracts have their salary measured as the average for that division. But with relegation clauses in a lot of contracts these days it might not be the advantage you think it is.
The average championship wage will be ten times the average L1 wage. It’s stupid.
it int nonsense if we want all clubs to survive and not go out of business, it seems the PFA want that with saying it is illegal
it not fair on those innovative, well-managed clubs who are prepared to have a go within their means.
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What laws would be broken.?
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Surely it just gives the relegated teams a big advantage.
To a point it does. So those players who are on continuous contracts have their salary measured as the average for that division. But with relegation clauses in a lot of contracts these days it might not be the advantage you think it is.
The average championship wage will be ten times the average L1 wage. It’s stupid.
it int nonsense if we want all clubs to survive and not go out of business, it seems the PFA want that with saying it is illegal
it not fair on those innovative, well-managed clubs who are prepared to have a go within their means.
Those clubs will be able to invest their extra cash in training facilities, youth development, stadium facilities etc, and as such be in a better position off field. Or they could offer cheaper tickets for fans.
You seem hell bent on opposing this, a measure I don’t see as detrimental to DRFC.
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The right to earn what your employers is prepared to pay you without interference . This is a free market and those that can pay and want to pay bigger wages can’t be prevented form doing so otherwise it a constraint of free trade . No one seeks to prevent the PL from paying huge wages WHY ? Because it would not get passed .
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Fatty Evans has just become the most sort after manager in league 1
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https://www.efl.com/news/2016/january/fifty-five-years-to-the-day-20-maximum-wage-cap-abolished-by-football-league-clubs/
What if players went on strike ?
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If the players went on strike we could end up with far less clubs to watch and also less clubs to employ the players.
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https://www.efl.com/news/2016/january/fifty-five-years-to-the-day-20-maximum-wage-cap-abolished-by-football-league-clubs/
What if players went on strike ?
There hadn’t been a pandemic then which had changed every day life as we know it..
Have recent events just passed you by.?
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Fatty Evans has just become the most sort after manager in league 1
If he is the most sought after he will soon get caught as there isn’t much he can hide behind.
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As a guideline, here are the figures for L1 in 2019;
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1291825037209632769/photo/2
Not a full list, as some clubs use a loophole in financial reporting to not publish a separate figure for salaries.
This should be against the regulations.
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https://www.efl.com/news/2016/january/fifty-five-years-to-the-day-20-maximum-wage-cap-abolished-by-football-league-clubs/
What if players went on strike ?
There hadn’t been a pandemic then which had changed every day life as we know it..
Have recent events just passed you by.?
So let’s take advantage of this opportunity and do a B.A and only give a job to those who’ll play for less money ! ..nice one !
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Eh.?
“Opportunity”.? What planet are you on.?
We will pay who we can afford to pay..
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Eh.?
“Opportunity”.? What planet are you on.?
We will pay who we can afford to pay..
Pay peanuts get monkeys .
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Hopefully it will bring an end to players getting ridiculous wages.
Let's say 2 goalkeepers came to drfc both as good as each other same age etc nothing to split them but one asks for 2 grand a week the other 1.5 grand a week surely we get the cheaper one which means we can spend the 500 quid on someone else.
The keeper who wants 2 grand gets left behind unless he drops his demands
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Eh.?
“Opportunity”.? What planet are you on.?
We will pay who we can afford to pay..
Pay peanuts get monkeys .
Tell me, where do all the league one and two players, who think they are worth more than they can be offered, where do they actually go.?
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1969 most of the wage earning workers in the country have been under wage restraint for the last 10 years did you miss it?
Footballers have been some of the very few that have not had wage restraint over that period, certainly the government have imposed it on public workers ( nurses police etc) in that period and footballers have the same minimum wage as everyone else as the lowest level as a payment. Above that limiting wage rises is not illegal, it is determined by the market, and the market in this country has just reduced for lots of workers including footballers except those at the top.
As I pointed out to you earlier, a team with the lowest wage bill in the division Wycombe won promotion against in the playoffs three teams with the highest wage bills, which teams do you think contained the monkeys run by clowns.
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Eh.?
“Opportunity”.? What planet are you on.?
We will pay who we can afford to pay..
Pay peanuts get monkeys .
Tell me, where do all the league one and two players, who think they are worth more than they can be offered, where do they actually go.?
Well it’s that sort of malevolent thinking that brought this about . A wage cap is just allowing the lower placed clubs a leg up and restricting the fair trade of the better off ones . Let’s face 1800 fans of Accrington Stanley will have the same budget as 18000 Portsmouth fans If it goes to court and it should the EFL will loose .
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I don't get how a blunt instrument like a flat salary cap is supposed to help clubs at this level.
Clubs in a financial death spiral will get hit with fines and points deductions, which always helps...
And a small League 1 club can still be run badly, spending too much, which I assume is still possible whilst not exceeding the £2.5m cap. Whereas a club like Sunderland could afford £2.5m many times over, but will be forced to have idle capital sitting around rather than putting it to good use.
What is the incentive for well run clubs to innovate and maximise revenue streams in order to gain an advantage over others?
Surely a more targeted regulation would be better?
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Sunderland need to do that for a few years and put it to the debt they have built up.
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Good point on twitter about the purpose of club doncaster becoming null and void
Think we usually end season just under this salary cap at min but weve always been told Club Doncaster is where we can compete, by growing it & increasing revenue & budget. This vote goes against all that. We’ve chosen ourselves to spend our budget unsustainably now anyway though
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Eh.?
“Opportunity”.? What planet are you on.?
We will pay who we can afford to pay..
Pay peanuts get monkeys .
Tell me, where do all the league one and two players, who think they are worth more than they can be offered, where do they actually go.?
Well it’s that sort of malevolent thinking that brought this about . A wage cap is just allowing the lower placed clubs a leg up and restricting the fair trade of the better off ones . Let’s face 1800 fans of Accrington Stanley will have the same budget as 18000 Portsmouth fans If it goes to court and it should the EFL will loose .
Fans hold the budget.??
Traditionally smaller clubs may still not reach the wage cap anyway..
I’m struggling to understand your points.. your arguments don’t stack up and if there’s nothing illegal why would a court change anything.?
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Good point on twitter about the purpose of club doncaster becoming null and void
Think we usually end season just under this salary cap at min but weve always been told Club Doncaster is where we can compete, by growing it & increasing revenue & budget. This vote goes against all that. We’ve chosen ourselves to spend our budget unsustainably now anyway though
If we gain extra revenue through club Doncaster, we rely less on the benevolence of our owner(s).? Especially if we spend less, or no more, on wages..
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Who says we actually voted for this we may have voted against this
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Am I missing something or are transfer fees not included in the cap? That’s one loophole to start with.
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1969 most of the wage earning workers in the country have been under wage restraint for the last 10 years did you miss it?
Footballers have been some of the very few that have not had wage restraint over that period, certainly the government have imposed it on public workers ( nurses police etc) in that period and footballers have the same minimum wage as everyone else as the lowest level as a payment. Above that limiting wage rises is not illegal, it is determined by the market, and the market in this country has just reduced for lots of workers including footballers except those at the top.
As I pointed out to you earlier, a team with the lowest wage bill in the division Wycombe won promotion against in the playoffs three teams with the highest wage bills, which teams do you think contained the monkeys run by clowns.
Wycombe are Owned by an American punter who pays more than DRFC would . What’s the point !!!
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Sunderland need to do that for a few years and put it to the debt they have built up.
The current owners of Sunderland have recently stated that the club is debt free.
Whether that's down to creative accountancy, who knows?
Link (https://www.safc.com/news/club-news/2020/may/club-statement-11-may-2020)
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Sunderland need to do that for a few years and put it to the debt they have built up.
The current owners of Sunderland have recently stated that the club is debt free.
Whether that's down to creative accountancy, who knows?
Link (https://www.safc.com/news/club-news/2020/may/club-statement-11-may-2020)
https://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/football/sunderland-afc/leaked-accounts-show-sunderlands-staggering-ps205million-financial-hole-stewart-donald-writes-debt-2847651
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Some folk need to remember that the cap might be £2.5m but you have still got to find £2.5m to spend. For many clubs in League One certainly next season, their biggest concern will be finding half that amount, not finding ways to get round the cap. Lower league football is not sustainable on 19/20 costs and 20/21 revenues. The cap helps the expenditure gap but there is still a huge challenge with revenues.
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1969 most of the wage earning workers in the country have been under wage restraint for the last 10 years did you miss it?
Footballers have been some of the very few that have not had wage restraint over that period, certainly the government have imposed it on public workers ( nurses police etc) in that period and footballers have the same minimum wage as everyone else as the lowest level as a payment. Above that limiting wage rises is not illegal, it is determined by the market, and the market in this country has just reduced for lots of workers including footballers except those at the top.
As I pointed out to you earlier, a team with the lowest wage bill in the division Wycombe won promotion against in the playoffs three teams with the highest wage bills, which teams do you think contained the monkeys run by clowns.
Wycombe are Owned by an American punter who pays more than DRFC would . What’s the point !!!
You have access to Wycombe and Doncaster’s wage bills.? Put up or shut up..
If a club has wealthy owners it doesn’t mean they pay big wages.
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Am I missing something or are transfer fees not included in the cap? That’s one loophole to start with.
Do players receive the transfer fees, as part of their wages.?
Why would this be a loophole.? Yes richer clubs could pay big money for better players, but those players won’t get a big salary, will they.?
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What will be the advantage of clubs having wealthy owners?
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Clubs will start employing players wife's girlfriends, mums and dads it will be like going back to the days of the brown paper bag
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Must admit I am suprised at the number of Rovers fans against fair sporting competition and arguing that rich people should have an advantage.
Just goes to show...
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Rather than this cap, they should have correctly enforced what is a natural budget for each club.
The EFL should employ a group of accountants that clubs have to supply accounts too, then based on their findings they are allocated a realistic budget, that they cannot overspend. They would also shut all loopholes, funding should only come from validated income streams created. Clubs found cheating should be relegated to the lowest league. Stop all this messing about with silly points and fines - they do nothing.
Football should not be about the richest owner ploughing money in, or creating debts gambling to get higher. It would then be about the natural order, and coaching of players.
I realise we have benefited, and still are benefiting from wealthy owners, but it is just bonkers losing 2 million a year, and we are all fooling ourselves we are well run.
This also creates a natural salary cap, where agents and players have to get real.
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Whilst I can understand the salary cap and the reasons behind it at the same time I sense a divide developing between the Championship and league's one and two .
Ending the season in league one and two but the Championship clubs got back on the pitch in July and finished the season off was the start of it .
Now we have the salary caps .
We need to be careful here because I can envisage the Championship becoming a PL2 if these divides continue .
There's been talk of this for a while now and the present circumstances could see this bear fruit .
The Championship clubs breaking away to negotiate their own tv deal and governance may not be too far away .
This in reality will make the step up from League One to the Championship for the promoted clubs even more difficult than it already is .
Parachute payments when you are relegated from the Championship may form part of that .
It's not something I wish to see .
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Leagues 1&2 have consigned themselves to being irrelevant and offering nothing now more then a place to put second or third string team players from the PL or Championship clubs. Grass roots has been reborn as L1&L2 and now that they’ve effectively been neutered have no future say in developments going forward . The EFL is now going throw it weight behind creating. PL 2 before clubs loose patience and go their own way .
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What will be the advantage of clubs having wealthy owners?
Bigger transfer fees, better youth set up, paying more for the best under 21 players available outside the salary cap, better stadium facilities, better equipment, better and more non playing staff such as physios, masseurs, dieticians etc, better quality pitch, better grounds staff, better facilities all round..
All the things outside the playing budget really..
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You don't watch what is i9n front of you 69, both in the playoff semi final broadcast and the final itself broadcast it was stated that Wycombes wage bill was actually the smallest in League 1 last season.
Also when the football shut down was imposed, in the national press there was shortly after an article about Wycombe being the first league club to lay staff off and also make backroom staff redundant because of their income streams.
Get up with what is happening in front of your eyes, Football is bigger than a few rich men and spivs who may well disappear and good riddance, yes I can see the teams moving towards feeder clubs for the youngsters from the premiership teams, feeder clubs by the back door if you want, but it will also bring the standar, and d in the lower league up, not down.
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What will be the advantage of clubs having wealthy owners?
Bigger transfer fees, better youth set up, paying more for the best under 21 players available outside the salary cap, better stadium facilities, better equipment, better and more non playing staff such as physios, masseurs, dieticians etc, better quality pitch, better grounds staff, better facilities all round..
All the things outside the playing budget really..
How can relying on wealthy owners to provide Bigger transfer fees, better youth set up, paying more for the best under 21 players available outside the salary cap, better stadium facilities, better equipment, better and more non-playing staff such as physios, masseurs, dieticians etc, better quality pitch, better grounds staff, and better facilities all round be called self-sufficient?
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I don’t know - that wasn’t the question.!! Certainly not the one you asked anyway.
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Could be an opportunity for upgrading the u18’s to cat2 status, if we made more than the £2.5m cap.
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It would be a brave case in the current environment to invest the required amount to move up to Cat 2 status, when output from our youth set up has been soon thin to date. Could be double or quits, but barely any financial return for that investment.
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With a higher category, though, we’d attract better players.
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I don’t know - that wasn’t the question.!! Certainly not the one you asked anyway.
It wasn't the initial question, but it was the next question in response to your post.
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If you have more money than the cap to spend, then spend it on staff wages, club infrastructure, youth teams, scouting, local community projects etc. Instead of paying average players and their agents far too much money... Just look at Arsenal cutting staff so they can 'invest in the playing squad'
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I don’t know - that wasn’t the question.!! Certainly not the one you asked anyway.
It wasn't the initial question, but it was the next question in response to your post.
And I answered. I said “I don’t know”.. I started my response with those very words..
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And that would have been fair enough if you'd have just said that, but you didn't.
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If sunderland or hull have 25 player on over 2400 a week does that mean they can not sign any new players because the waste cap?
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
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If sunderland or hull have 25 player on over 2400 a week does that mean they can not sign any new players because the waste cap?
Freudian slip..... ? :whistle:
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If sunderland or hull have 25 player on over 2400 a week does that mean they can not sign any new players because the waste cap?
Freudian slip..... ? :whistle:
hahaha my bad
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
No, that's not right. Any player who was previously contracted at a higher rate has his salary capped at the average for the squad. There is no need to renegotiate or reduce.
So, with a squad of 22 the average is;
£2.5m / 22 Players = £113,636 p.a. per Player
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If sunderland or hull have 25 player on over 2400 a week does that mean they can not sign any new players because the waste cap?
Freudian slip..... ? :whistle:
Maybe there are to be special salary limitations for players from Holland.? “Johnny foreigner“.?
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The development and further investment in the U 18 fits the overall future strategy and fits. the new financial realities in football . This said I believe that DM’s ability to attract talent by way of loans is fine too.
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Don’t want to sound like a doomsayer, but if the U18s is not producing players that we can either use or sell, what exactly are we trying to achieve..... if we can get grade A young loanees from Premiership and Championship teams, why invest n something that “ might give a return”
This is not a dig, just trying to understand the logic of having a youth academy that isn’t generating any income from sales
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
No, that's not right. Any player who was previously contracted at a higher rate has his salary capped at the average for the squad. There is no need to renegotiate or reduce.
So, with a squad of 22 the average is;
£2.5m / 22 Players = £113,636 p.a. per Player
That’s assuming you pay everyone at the same rate . I have always thought bonuses should be the bigger part of income with bonuses earned on results .
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It's not a bad annual salary though is it
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Don’t want to sound like a doomsayer, but if the U18s is not producing players that we can either use or sell, what exactly are we trying to achieve..... if we can get grade A young loanees from Premiership and Championship teams, why invest n something that “ might give a return”
This is not a dig, just trying to understand the logic of having a youth academy that isn’t generating any income from sales
In a different thread a few week ago Selby was saying how the U16s from last year are the best generation in a long time. They'll be U18s this coming season. Let's see how them lads to out before we write the system off. We should be able to have a decent system anyway, we live in a 300,000 population borough and have other areas like Scummy we could pull from.
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
No, that's not right. Any player who was previously contracted at a higher rate has his salary capped at the average for the squad. There is no need to renegotiate or reduce.
So, with a squad of 22 the average is;
£2.5m / 22 Players = £113,636 p.a. per Player
That’s assuming you pay everyone at the same rate . I have always thought bonuses should be the bigger part of income with bonuses earned on results .
Err, no it's not, that's how you work out what an average wage is under the salary cap system.
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
No, that's not right. Any player who was previously contracted at a higher rate has his salary capped at the average for the squad. There is no need to renegotiate or reduce.
So, with a squad of 22 the average is;
£2.5m / 22 Players = £113,636 p.a. per Player
That’s assuming you pay everyone at the same rate . I have always thought bonuses should be the bigger part of income with bonuses earned on results .
Err, no it's not, that's how you work out what an average wage is under the salary cap system.
As I said in my first post, I belive this is the basis of the PFA challenge:
How can an employer (any employer) alter the terms of my contract without my agreement?
As a former trade union rep 'There is no need to renegotiate or reduce' I am afraid is meaningless as you HAVE to negotiate with me. The contract is between club and player, not EFL and player or EFL & club.
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
No, that's not right. Any player who was previously contracted at a higher rate has his salary capped at the average for the squad. There is no need to renegotiate or reduce.
So, with a squad of 22 the average is;
£2.5m / 22 Players = £113,636 p.a. per Player
That’s assuming you pay everyone at the same rate . I have always thought bonuses should be the bigger part of income with bonuses earned on results .
Err, no it's not, that's how you work out what an average wage is under the salary cap system.
As I said in my first post, I belive this is the basis of the PFA challenge:
How can an employer (any employer) alter the terms of my contract without my agreement?
As a former trade union rep 'There is no need to renegotiate or reduce' I am afraid is meaningless as you HAVE to negotiate with me. The contract is between club and player, not EFL and player or EFL & club.
Existing contracts aren’t being altered they will just be classed as the average salary for salary cap purposes
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
No, that's not right. Any player who was previously contracted at a higher rate has his salary capped at the average for the squad. There is no need to renegotiate or reduce.
So, with a squad of 22 the average is;
£2.5m / 22 Players = £113,636 p.a. per Player
That’s assuming you pay everyone at the same rate . I have always thought bonuses should be the bigger part of income with bonuses earned on results .
Err, no it's not, that's how you work out what an average wage is under the salary cap system.
As I said in my first post, I belive this is the basis of the PFA challenge:
How can an employer (any employer) alter the terms of my contract without my agreement?
As a former trade union rep 'There is no need to renegotiate or reduce' I am afraid is meaningless as you HAVE to negotiate with me. The contract is between club and player, not EFL and player or EFL & club.
Existing contracts aren’t being altered they will just be classed as the average salary for salary cap purposes
I don't know what it is like for a professional footballer but my wage is stated in my contract.
If there is a club whose current wage bill is over the salary cap then they are going to have to renegotiate with the players affected. Or pay the balance in brown envelopes.
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I think this is the basis for the legal challenge isn't it. What if you have an exisiting squad of players under contract whose wage bill exceeds £2.5 mill and they wont renegotiate a drop in wages or be transferred?
I would guess the only way to avoid a sanction is to still keep paying those players what they are contrated to earn - you just can't have all of them in the squad. Somebody will have to be paid to stay at home.
No, that's not right. Any player who was previously contracted at a higher rate has his salary capped at the average for the squad. There is no need to renegotiate or reduce.
So, with a squad of 22 the average is;
£2.5m / 22 Players = £113,636 p.a. per Player
That’s assuming you pay everyone at the same rate . I have always thought bonuses should be the bigger part of income with bonuses earned on results .
Err, no it's not, that's how you work out what an average wage is under the salary cap system.
As I said in my first post, I belive this is the basis of the PFA challenge:
How can an employer (any employer) alter the terms of my contract without my agreement?
As a former trade union rep 'There is no need to renegotiate or reduce' I am afraid is meaningless as you HAVE to negotiate with me. The contract is between club and player, not EFL and player or EFL & club.
Existing contracts aren’t being altered they will just be classed as the average salary for salary cap purposes
I don't know what it is like for a professional footballer but my wage is stated in my contract.
If there is a club whose current wage bill is over the salary cap then they are going to have to renegotiate with the players affected. Or pay the balance in brown envelopes.
Wilts, no they won’t.
It is straightforward.
No existing contracts will be affected.
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Fair enough hound.
So if for intance a clubs current wage bill is twice the salary cap - it now magically becomes the salary cap wilst still being twice the salary cap. That makes sense.
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Fair enough hound.
So if for intance a clubs current wage bill is twice the salary cap - it now magically becomes the salary cap wilst still being twice the salary cap. That makes sense.
Wilts, you’ve written in this thread that the PFA can’t just go around altering contracts or even expecting existing contracts to be altered. If the salary cap is the agreed on approach, what else could they do other than what they have (had a provision to allow for existing contracts) to make it “make sense” in your view? Any renegotiations when contracts have expired will have to fit within the cap, but there has to be an allowance for any club that’s exceeding it without tearing up existing contracts.
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It has been agreed as a rule for the new Salary Cap that all existing contracts prior to the date of implementation (Friday 7th August) will count as the league average until such time as they are renegotiated or have ended. Quite simple really and the most sensible way of dealing with the transitional period for clubs.
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It has been agreed as a rule for the new Salary Cap that all existing contracts prior to the date of implementation (Friday 7th August) will count as the league average until such time as they are renegotiated or have ended. Quite simple really and the most sensible way of dealing with the transitional period for clubs.
Only those contracts that are above the squad average will be counted as the squad average. Those below of course will be counted at their correct level.