BREXIT

[RedJ]

Can't actually find the word Kitson (I read it this afternoon and agree it's very well written) but I wonder if it's actually "Kitson" and the swear filter has changed it for you two.

Hopefully not though.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

The problem with the EU is accountability. The unelected can make decisions that affect the whole of Europe and go spectacularly wrong before lurching to the next ridiculous decision.
It's like being in a large family and trying to keep everybody happy.
I feel that it has grown too big and is corrupt and out of control. Sepp Blatter would have been a good fit for a position there.

I was thinking the same myself. Unless there's strong accountability an transparency the EU 'family' could grow into a monster, ripe for mismanagement and corruption as we beg for slices of the cake. That's just one concern.

One the other hand, a vote to leave will undoubtably lead to a period of uncertainty and instability however,this cannot be a vote for the short term.

This has to be about a vote for our children and our children's children. Can we thrive as a country in the longer term by having more autonomy and making decisions that improve all aspects of life?

One thing is clear to me. We will need drive, determination and collective responsibility to succeed. We will need better government. I'm not sure our current political system is fit enough for that purpose.

If you think we can provide better health, education, economic conditions for business to prosper, educate the next generation of entrepreneurs, doctors, lawyers, accountants, tradespeople by making decisions about raising our own taxes and investing country wide etc., then we should take the short term risk to leave.

Stay, without close scrutiny, we may lose more control although across the EU, there is likely to be more economic equalisation, which may be a good thing.

Stay or leave, we are still a European country. There will always be migration both within and outside the EU.

I was too young to vote first time. Likely I will not get another chance. But it's not about me. It's too late for me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

ZZ

I despair mate.

I'll tell you now, if we do leave and if Europe does start to fragment as a result, there will be only one person who will benefit. He sits in the Kremlin. He will bully and intimidate and bring to heel the countries of Eurooe one by one.  I am astonished that no-one on the Leave side is prepared to address this.

[Bentley Bullet]

My swingometer has swung to the remain side today.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Tbh, I am softening to the side of stay BUT, likihood is more pence out of your £1 our Euro will be taken up with bureaucracy. Our younger generation are comfortable with being EU citizens and perhaps feel more secure and free. No problem with that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

ZZ

By the way, the very biggest lie that the Leave campaign peddles is that we will be able to reject freedom of movement and also be able to be part of the single market.

We won't. Not a chance in a million. Look at what the EU did to Switzerland when they voted to reject freedom of movement. (I'll give you a hint. The very first thing they did was to threaten to kick Switzerland out of the  European agreements for university teaching and research - ie exactly the things that underpin training of the next generation of high level thinkers that will drive an economy - the ones you want us to train more of. 

[RedJ]

My swingometer has swung to the remain side today.

Mine swings slightly to the left.

[ZiggerZagger]

Mr Putin will not have to do anything. Mr Junker is doing it all for him. My old mate from work came from East Germany after the wall came down. He says it's just like being back home in the old days. Bit by little bit they take from you, just little things that you don't notice over time. Then you wake up one day and your no longer a free man. I said that could never happen. He replied  that's what my grandparents said about AH in 1936. We know how that turned out.

[Glyn_Wigley]

British governments have successively done more to take away our freedoms bit by bit than the EU ever has. In fact the European Court has prevented many attempts by British governments to take away freedoms by making British governments adhere to the Human Rights Convention.

[BillyStubbsTears]

ZZ

And it's that sort of idle rubbish that is the most depressing thing about our attitude to Europe.

Are you REALLY saying that the EU is equivalent to Putin's Russia, or the USSR's satellites, or Hitler's Germany?

Give me f**king strength. Think about what the EU and it's forebears have actually done for Europe over the past 60 years. And be bloody well grown up about it instead of making infantile comparisons like the ones you've made in this thread.

[ZiggerZagger]

No I'm not comparing the EU with Russia. What I'm saying is Putin will be sat at home laughing his trolleys off at what is happening in Europe. As for the Hitler remarks I was just repeating what some prople said to me who have lived under the  boot of the Nazi and heel of the Big Russian Bear so they are a lot more qualified to comment on such things than you or I.
As for the 60yrs. Yes there has been some amazing things achieved by the countries of Europe, bringing down the wall was probably the best. The start of the Common Market was a damn fine idea. Alas it's no longer like what it was ment to be. I believe it's time for a change. I believe each country should govern itself, your entitled to your opinion as am I. That's what living in a free democratic country is all about.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So go on then. What specific things about the EU did they suggest make it like the Soviet system or the Nazi regime?

Does the EU stop political troublemakers from working or travelling abroad? Does it send opponents of the system to forced labour camps? Does it run gas chambers? Does it make certain sections of its population wear marks on their clothing to identify them?

Tell me. What are these horrific EU diktats that make your life and the life of your friends do intolerable?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

ZZ

By the way, the very biggest lie that the Leave campaign peddles is that we will be able to reject freedom of movement and also be able to be part of the single market.

We won't. Not a chance in a million. Look at what the EU did to Switzerland when they voted to reject freedom of movement. (I'll give you a hint. The very first thing they did was to threaten to kick Switzerland out of the  European agreements for university teaching and research - ie exactly the things that underpin training of the next generation of high level thinkers that will drive an economy - the ones you want us to train more of. 

Ffs BST. We will be able to trade inside and outside of Europe. We will be able to move inside and outside of Europe. There maybe conditions for us doing so, but in the run of things it may cost less.

There's risks both ways and no one can predict how well or how poor it will work. Fact is though, if we do come out we'll have to work harder and smarter.

I'm surprised that you don't think we can't stand on our own two feet and be a good nation for people to want to live and work no matter what our origins.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DBR

Of course we will be able to trade. Of course we can stand on our own two feet.

The question is, what will be the COST of doing that after leaving the EU.

It's not a Paradise/Hell on Earth choice. It is a choice of whether we deliberately choose to cut ourselves off from the largest, freest and richest trading bloc in the world.

We will NOT be part of the Single Market if we leave the EU and stop freedom of movement. Freedom of movement is a basic principle of the Single Market. The point I'm making is that the Leave side are peddling you a lie.

Put up the shutters by all means. Make every Pole and Latvian apply for a visa to enter the UK. Do it by all means to show that we can stand on our own two feet and control our borders.

And then see what the economic consequences are.


PS. What do you mean when you say that in the long run, it may cost less for us to trade with and move around Europe if we are out of the EU? Do you think that everyone else in Europe is thick? Do you think that they sign up for the EU deal and all the constraints it brings, without there being an overwhelming economic advantage to doing so? Do you think that we are smarter than France, Spain, Sweden, Italy etc in seeing through the big con trick?

[bobjimwilly]

I'm still baffled that people think a government such as our current one will actually spend the money we save if we leave?
They will balance the books, use it to lower the deficit and lower taxes. There's no legislation telling them they have to do otherwise so why would they?

[ferribyrover]

The campaigning has been poor, often dishonest, and full of dodgy stats and forecasts...but that's mostly from politicians so we are not surprised.
I favour democracy and accountability, which is not perfect in the UK but is better than EU.
Economically the EU is struggling, we are (relatively) a star performer. But is the EU holding us back or helping? The modern world is global, via the Internet and travel, and we are naturally a trading nation. Even the City does most of its business with non EU countries. On balance I feel we will be successful out of the EU. And then there is immigration, which surely must be controlled.
My mind is made up and the politicians will not change my decision.

[Donnywolf]

I agree about the campaigning and their lack of honesty (Politicians)

I wish I was as decisive as you seem to be because I can change my mind several times a day - and I am sure I am not alone in that. As I said above some time ago I may not vote simply because I cant decide AND if I had 2 votes I would cast one each way !

I still cant believe the Politicians we elected to take decisions on our behalf have suddenly abdicated that responsibility when they get a curved ball - with one they cant decide / agree on and so leave us open to coming up with the "wrong" answer whatever that may be !

Whichever way we go I hope people can look back in about 10 years and say "EU Referendum - ah yes - what was all the fuss about"

[wilts rover]

Ferriby, economically the World is struggling and we were a strong trading nation in days of sailing ships and when the US, Russia and China were either protectionist or fighting/recovering from a civil war. Many things have changed since then.

What will be the cost of increasing trade with those countries? American companies running our public services with Chinese construction companies, using Chinese labour and Chinese supplies building our infrastructure whilst Russian oligarchs own the best real estate? Look at the Premier League, how many clubs are owned by foreign investors? Yet how many sports franchises across the world are owned by Brits. It is a big world you would have us compete in.

Yet can we trade on the world economy isn't really the question. What we have to decide next month is can we afford to give up trading with our single biggest market? Because trade with that market involves unresticted travel for its members. Will the traders who currently deal in the City suddently move to Paris or Frankfurt because they have better access to that market for instance?

I dont have the answers but I cant see how creating uncertainty is going to benefit us and we should therefore stay in.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yet can we trade on the world economy isn't really the question. What we have to decide next month is can we afford to give up trading with our single biggest market? Because trade with that market involves unresticted travel for its members. Will the traders who currently deal in the City suddently move to Paris or Frankfurt because they have better access to that market for instance?

It's not a case of giving up trading with the EU countries, it's a case of giving up the advantages of being in a Single Market with them, with RED TAPE AND CUSTOMS DUTY FREE movement of goods from one country to another.

[wilts rover]

I agree about the campaigning and their lack of honesty (Politicians)

I wish I was as decisive as you seem to be because I can change my mind several times a day - and I am sure I am not alone in that. As I said above some time ago I may not vote simply because I cant decide AND if I had 2 votes I would cast one each way !

I still cant believe the Politicians we elected to take decisions on our behalf have suddenly abdicated that responsibility when they get a curved ball - with one they cant decide / agree on and so leave us open to coming up with the "wrong" answer whatever that may be !

Whichever way we go I hope people can look back in about 10 years and say "EU Referendum - ah yes - what was all the fuss about"

I am on the oposite side of the fence to you there Wolfie. Thereason we are having the EU Referendum is that 15 million people voted for a party that had it as a major part of their manifesto and campaign. It isn't the politicians who wanted it - most of them didn't - but a good percentage of the population.

Which I think is good. People should be more involved in political decisions which are supposedly made on our behalf. Do we or do we not want this or that? Where would we like to see our funding go? Only 66% of the population bothered to vote in the last election - yet nearly 90% voted in the Scottish Referendum. Because on single issues your voice matters. And the politicians have to deal with the result and get on with it. As they will on 24th June.

I hope you do vote. I hope everyone votes. Because only then will it be a true reflection on what the country wants.

[ferribyrover]

Even though my mind is made up I do hope more people get engaged in the debate and do vote.
I did a poll at work a few weeks ago and winning by miles was an alliance of undecideds and "what referendum?".

[DevilMayCry]

From one point of view, financially, I don't know how is your country affected by EU. From the other point of view, immigrants, and not only this refugees, but also polish, romanians etc (even though I still want another chance to come and stay there, but this time without getting in the hospital ), your country is one of the most affected, and from this point of view, an exit from EU is what you need. From my point of view, no country should be obliged to accept immigrants, only if the people from that country wants it.

In the end, I'm sure you'll vote what you think it's best for your country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'll say it again because it doesn't seem as though many people are picking up on this.

We CANNOT stop freedom of movement (ie: EU immigration) and still be part of the Single Market.

Full stop.

You either have all the benefits of the Single Market AND immigration. Or you control EU immigration and get kicked out of the Single Market.

It is as simple as that. Make your choice with that understanding.

[RedJ]

In the need, I'm sure you'll vote what you think it's best for your country.

No. People will vote for what's best for them personally. Cos dem imigrantz tuk r jobs.

[BobG]

Horses Billy. Horses and water.....

BobG

[idler]

All the water is owned by foreigners though Bob.

[Savvy]

I'll say it again because it doesn't seem as though many people are picking up on this.

We CANNOT stop freedom of movement (ie: EU immigration) and still be part of the Single Market.

Full stop.

You either have all the benefits of the Single Market AND immigration. Or you control EU immigration and get kicked out of the Single Market.

It is as simple as that. Make your choice with that understanding.

So the Worlds 5th biggest economy would be bullied by the EU regarding who can and can't come into the country although we would not be part of the union? Come on then, how does that work?

Just as an aside Billy, how many of the 28 countries are net contributors to the EU?

Some food for thought Nudga!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR-gewWitjc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcqBnVd6tOY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xskWLMu5Ggo

[BillyStubbsTears]

Savvy

It's not about opinions mate. That's all I've heard from the Brexit side. Opinions from IDS and Gove and Johnson and Farrage. A bunch of liars and swindlers telling us "Trust me! It'll be fine!"

But it's not about opinions. It's about facts. As I keep saying, and no one seems to take on board, look at Switzerland. They do pretty as much trade with the EU as we do. They had a referendum and voted to stop free movement of people from the EU. Go and have a look at the EU's response. And then tell me why we would be different.

[wilts rover]

Or to put things another way Savvy, you are telling us that we can withdraw our funding from the EU with no repercussions? How does that work?

Its like stopping your season ticket at Rovers and then asking to be let in for free! No, you have to pay for every game - which will cost you more in the long run.

[nightporter]

No. People will vote for what's best for them personally. Cos dem imigrantz tuk r jobs.

Exactly, putting this vote in the hands of people who didn't vote for someone because of the way he ate a bacon sarnie is madness.