Brexit Negotiations

[albie]

The best way to think about the role of Davis and his team is that they are there to play to a domestic gallery.
 
Their job is to obscure the fact that the cupboard is bare when it comes to negotiation. They cannot negotiate because the cards they hold are not a winning hand.

An extended piece of theatre......with the intention of persuading the weak minded that they have fought their corner like lions.

Thats it.....kick the can down the road and hope something turns up.
Grand eh!

[hoolahoop]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?

At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team,  who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.

Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
 I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads   

Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is

Don't be ridiculous man , I'm calling you pathetic not because you disagree with my views or me with yours but using the WW11 argument constantly. I have noto asserted that we that  the French should show any gratitude.
What has the bloody WW2 got to do with this ? Every nation died winning that war , most of all the Russians and it was 80 years ago .

It's that very fact that matters and my only  view on it bearing in mind these are facts is you using them to justify your argument somehow- they are not relevant to the question in hand.

If that were the case you would have typed pathetic argument, not pathetic man

Quite right yes the argument not the man - sorry about the misunderstanding Filo.

[Yargo]

Jesus H  Christ,so Frankenstein's monster is thrashing around in the lab having already killed off one of its co-creators,Greece,ya know the country that gave us the word Democracy (or that ridiculous vote as Foola would have it),and left most others badly damaged,well having elected the kind of government i suspect most on here would like to see they then had to dance to the EU tune.Paul Mason that arch Corbynite, incidentally is Labour pro or anti EU this week i've lost track, explained years ago that if the Syriza government had to implement the hardline Thatcherite economic and financial policies demanded by the EU it would keep that country in decline for his lifetime,the EU insisted that by now it would be in good shape,how did that turn out?
Now you do know that VAT falls disproportionally on the poor,what would happen if a government wanted to eliminate it or put the level so low as to not count,what would the EU do?
Seems all pro EU'ers on here are arch Thatcherites now,tell me how this http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/joining-euro-area/convergence-criteria/ is not institutional Thatcherism?The kind Greece has no chance of escaping.
You would've voted in favour of Ever Closer Union in the referendum,if you voted stay,it is the first principal of the EU

[Glyn_Wigley]

Reverend Jim's back.

[Bentley Bullet]

One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!

A lot of remainers don't think we lost our sovereignty to the EU in the first place.

[hoolahoop]

One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!

That's because we didn't BB or did you miss the Government explanation that '' our people felt as if they had lost sovereignty

see :- The Brexit White Paper

Parliament has “remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that”, the Brexit White Paper says.

The statement contradicts a key message from the campaign to leave the European Union, which argued ending the UK’s membership to the EU would "bring back sovereignty" to Parliament and end Brussels' control over national laws.

But in a section titled “taking control of our own laws”, the White Paper states: “The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that.” 

A lot of remainers don't think we lost our sovereignty to the EU in the first place.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-white-paper-uk-parliament-remian-sovereign-eu-membership-referendum-campaign-brussels-article-a7559556.html

BB I suggest you keep your alternative facts to yourself as the Government doesn't agree with you !

Stop flogging a dead horse - Brexit will shortly be all but dead the pendulum is swinging .

[wilts rover]

One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!

A lot of remainers don't think we lost our sovereignty to the EU in the first place.

And thats why the negotiations have failed so far is it? Or are you just saying something you think will wind people up just for the sake of it?

[Bentley Bullet]

Wilts. Do you think that we lost sovereignty to the EU?

[wilts rover]

What a truely pointless question Bentley. What side of the road do we drive on? What currency do we use? Its not the EU who have closed my local hospital or made two teachers redundant at my local school. Why should I care who decides what the size of holes in fishing nets, air quality, river pollution or quality of beaches should be?

Why are you still trying to fight the referendum? Who cares if we did or didnt lose sovereignty in 1973, 1992 2016. What is important now are these negotiations and the end result of them. So I repeat again, why have they failed Bentley? And what should the UK do now?

[Bentley Bullet]

Ha ha ha ha ha! Since when have I been an expert on the outcome of leaving the EU?!!!! That's why I was relying on you to tell me!!!!

Why am I still trying to fight the referendum? Are you serious? You're having a laugh, aren't you? You are, aren't you!!!!

[hoolahoop]

Ha ha ha ha ha! Since when have I been an expert on the outcome of leaving the EU?!!!! That's why I was relying on you to tell me!!!!

Why am I still trying to fight the referendum? Are you serious? You're having a laugh, aren't you? You are, aren't you!!!!

You mentioned " sovereignty " - I hope the Government's White Paper has cleared that up or can't you admit it was a moot point BB ?

[wilts rover]

Ha ha ha ha ha! Since when have I been an expert on the outcome of leaving the EU?!!!! That's why I was relying on you to tell me!!!!

Why am I still trying to fight the referendum? Are you serious? You're having a laugh, aren't you? You are, aren't you!!!!

I am the one asking questions about what is taking place today - you are the one asking questions about 18 months ago. What has sovereignty got to do with Brexit negotiations today?

[Bentley Bullet]

Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should  Brexit negotiations go against us.

[wilts rover]

Ah, so they are willing to risk, jobs, investment, movement of people, customs control, intelligence sharing, police co-operation, academic and scientific alliances and the lack of legal certainty for any project or contract that we have with Europe for that.

Which are these dangerous EU laws that these people object too, so I can watch out for them being thrown out when Parliament brings all the other EU law into British law as they said they would?

I wonder if these same people are the ones clamoring for the government to publish the data they have commissioned to show what the effect of no deal will be? Or what they have to say to the former leading civil servant of the trade department who said the government were being dishonest by not setting out what the repercussions of this no deal would be?

Maybe you could enlighten me as you appear to know about them?

[Bentley Bullet]

What are you talking about?!!! You asked me "What has sovereignty got to do with Brexit negotiations today"? I answered by saying "Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should  Brexit negotiations go against us".

I suggest you ask them, not me. I only answered your question of what has Sovereignty got to do with negotiations today!

Remember Mr Wilts, You seem to be the expert on everything about everything. I've always insisted that predicting the result of Brexit would be complete conjecture. I've NEVER, EVER tried to imply otherwise.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Tell us who they are then.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Thing is BB, it's NOT complete conjecture. That was what Gove wanted you to believe when he said that people were fed up with listening to experts.

He said that because economists overwhelmingly believe that Brexit will cause a long-term hit to our economic performance. Because it will make trade with our nearest and biggest markets much harder. There are few things that economists from across the political spectrum are so united on.


It is also commonly agreed by economists that the worst effects could be mitigated by remaining in he single market and the customs union. But, for reasons known only to her, May has rejected that option. Even Farage was touting the Norway Option last June. We've chucked that option away. For political reasons. I'll guarantee you that the vote would have gone the other way if that had been made clear at the time.

Now, the economists may be wrong. It's doubtful, but possible. I'd feel a good bit more comfortable if someone on the Brexit side was giving concrete reasons why. Instead of what we've got at the moment, which is vague "it'll be alright" and "nobody knows anyway."

[wilts rover]

What are you talking about?!!! You asked me "What has sovereignty got to do with Brexit negotiations today"? I answered by saying "Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should  Brexit negotiations go against us".

I suggest you ask them, not me. I only answered your question of what has Sovereignty got to do with negotiations today!

Remember Mr Wilts, You seem to be the expert on everything about everything. I've always insisted that predicting the result of Brexit would be complete conjecture. I've NEVER, EVER tried to imply otherwise.

You have certainly more than implied that the Brexit negotiations have broken down because of 'sovereignty' or is writing it not implying it?

It makes me an expert because I answer your questions does it? Seems everybody is an expert these days Mr Bentley.

[not on facebook]

It certianly looks like that when this vote was put out that X amount did not really take on board what they was voting for as they was not fully informed,wrong or right.

I could be wrong here but many would have voted out due to concerns over immigration which UKIP was pushing to its hilt back then.UKIP are now finished as a party but they did what try set out to do.

What strikes me is the amount of paragraphs after paragraphs of facts or figures that are typed out on here either for or against  the brexit vote > result > situation > predictions > .

I have to ask > what % of the voters actually take time to read whatever info is out there before they mark X into whatever box ?

Back in 1974 ,how was the cross over to the EU accepted back then ? Was the country fully informed as to what the road ahead was all about.

I know norway have had two yes or no votes to join the EU in the 20 years since I have been here ,and I be a massive mistake if they ever voted for a yes from what I see ,as it would be a massive mistake for norway to enter the EU .

To many voters who voted for brexit ,I go all in with my chips on the table that they voted out because they saw/see the EU  top table as bully’s and far too liberal .

Hence why you have a 31 year old right wing candidate making waves and a name for himself in the Austrian political scene.he wants to cut benafits to all non Austrians  in Austria ,which goes against what the EU are pushing.

Slowly but surely the tide is turning

[hoolahoop]

NOF- Norway is a completely different economy to our own with huge resources and little squandering of their oil money windfall as far as I can see. Far from it - they have set money aside for their futures when the oil revenues have run out .

When you have a population slightly over 5,000,000 and are running an annual trade surplus of some  £ 27 billion p.a. . It's not hard to see that with few overheads on defense  etc. The people there are comparatively rich and haven't been running a huge deficit and debt for year after year.

[Bentley Bullet]

What are you talking about?!!! You asked me "What has sovereignty got to do with Brexit negotiations today"? I answered by saying "Some people believe that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit. Maybe they are concerned about this affecting the country's chances of regaining sovereignty should  Brexit negotiations go against us".

I suggest you ask them, not me. I only answered your question of what has Sovereignty got to do with negotiations today!

Remember Mr Wilts, You seem to be the expert on everything about everything. I've always insisted that predicting the result of Brexit would be complete conjecture. I've NEVER, EVER tried to imply otherwise.

You have certainly more than implied that the Brexit negotiations have broken down because of 'sovereignty' or is writing it not implying it?

It makes me an expert because I answer your questions does it? Seems everybody is an expert these days Mr Bentley.

Mr Wilts, where have I implied that Brexit negotiations have broken down, because of sovereignty or otherwise? I don't even know if negotiations have broken down!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Because of its oil wealth and small population, Norway is one of the richest per capita countries in the world. It could trade with anywhere in the world. Yet it chooses to be in the Single Market.

We are leaving the Single Market. Despite a constant line from Leave campaigners last year (including Farage) that we could leave the EU then model ourselves on Norway.

As John Lydon said: ever get the feeling you've been had?

[Bentley Bullet]

Thing is BB, it's NOT complete conjecture. That was what Gove wanted you to believe when he said that people were fed up with listening to experts.

He said that because economists overwhelmingly believe that Brexit will cause a long-term hit to our economic performance. Because it will make trade with our nearest and biggest markets much harder. There are few things that economists from across the political spectrum are so united on.


It is also commonly agreed by economists that the worst effects could be mitigated by remaining in he single market and the customs union. But, for reasons known only to her, May has rejected that option. Even Farage was touting the Norway Option last June. We've chucked that option away. For political reasons. I'll guarantee you that the vote would have gone the other way if that had been made clear at the time.

Now, the economists may be wrong. It's doubtful, but possible. I'd feel a good bit more comfortable if someone on the Brexit side was giving concrete reasons why. Instead of what we've got at the moment, which is vague "it'll be alright" and "nobody knows anyway."

BST, so after getting their prediction of an immediate recession following the vote to leave wrong, the experts are much wiser on the subject now and can definitely be relied on from now on?

[BillyStubbsTears]

What we've seen since June last year is something that was depressingly predictable. The Referendum was only ever about one thing. Dealing with the issue that has torn the Tories apart for a generation. It was never about what was best for the UK. It was about where the balance of power lies in the Tory party. Because there's a majority of Tory supporters and MPs who want us to cut loose from Europe, that is where we are heading. Regardless of the consequences for the economy. But there was never a majority in Parliament, or in the country for this kind of Hard Brexit. Because the economic consequences will be dire.

It's no coincidence that the main Cabinet minister trying to rein back the Hard Brexit approach is the Chancellor. He's got no chance of becoming PM because he's seen by the Tory party as not being hard enough on Europe. But he's the one who has to deal with making the finances stack up. And he knows that the current plans will be devastating to the nation's finances.

But never mind eh? When May falls sometime in the next 18 months, we'll get PM Boris. And that was what the referendum was always about. His personal ego.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Which economists predicted an immediate recession?

[BillyStubbsTears]

They predicted an immediate devaluation. And a long-term slow decline in our economic growth relative to the rest of Europe.

We got an immediate devaluation. So, the day after the referendum, we as a country were immediately 15-20% poorer than we were the day before.

And prior to June 2016, our GDP growth had been  significantly stronger than the EU average for most of the previous 6 years. Since then, ours has dropped from 1.8% to 1.4%. The EU's has grown from 1.7% to 2.3%.

This isn't about point scoring. This is about us heading for a significantly weaker and poorer future. It's happening. Now.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB

Which economists predicted an immediate recession?

BST, I don't know any economists by name, but I know a few 'experts' by name, some on this forum, who predicted immediate doom and gloom following the vote to leave.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You think an immediate 15-20% devaluation was a good outcome?

And the consequent jump in inflation that we've seen over the past 12 months?

And the massive drop in Foreign Direct Investment that the Telegraph has reported today?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/15/britains-missing-billions-revised-figures-reveal-uk-490bn-poorer/amp/

You can say that no-one can predict perfectly. You're right. Some of the predictions of the effects of Brexit were overdone. Mainly by Osborne who was trying to put the very big frighteners on. But on balance, the predictions of the negative effects of Brexit are coming true. And there's still no sign of what the benefits are, other than vague "it'll be alright" stuff.

[Bentley Bullet]

No, but the absence of the predicted recession made it not such a bad one.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Our drop in performance relative to the EU over the past 16 months has left us, relatively, about £30bn poorer than we would have been if we'd grown as quickly as them. Not an official recession no. But the point is, the rest of the developed world has seen big increases in growth since last summer. We have seen a drop in growth. And no sign of it bottoming out.

If you're happy with that, then grand. Me, I'm really concerned about how this adds up over 5-10-15 years.