Israel

[SydneyRover]

BBC a series maps show how changes have occurred over time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567

The borders cannot be reset to pre 1917 times, but what should be recognised is who had control of the land and how it changed, who was involved and I think bears responsibility and therefore should make every effort to bring about a resolution.

[Bristol Red Rover]

No

Glad to hear it  So what are you arguing for? A continuation of the current power structure? Or an attack on Gaza as is being proposed - which will inevitably extend to the West Bank and Lebanon - to wipe out the militants? Or.... ?

[Bristol Red Rover]

BBC a series maps show how changes have occurred over time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567

The borders cannot be reset to pre 1917 times, but what should be recognised is who had control of the land and how it changed, who was involved and I think bears responsibility and therefore should make every effort to bring about a resolution.

I think the issue there is how much the Zionists, Jewish and Christian (a hugely powerful lobby), are allowed to dictatate. Whilst the US has Israel as its Middle East state, it seems they will be given that power. And we will see more bloodshed, potentially even a war that could result in nukes.

[River Don]

Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.

Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.

Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?

Nope and BST said the same.  History would tell us what the linkage of these events often means.  Where does it stop or end?

[River Don]

Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.

Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?

Nope and BST said the same.  History would tell us what the linkage of these events often means.  Where does it stop or end?

Just hope to goodness it isn't China and Taiwan.

[SydneyRover]

Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.

Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?

No, but has been so for a long time, those countries that proclaim to be leaders of the free world should have put real pressure on both sides, for Israel to retreat to its pre 1967 position and for Palestinians to accept that Israel has the same right as the Palestinians to exist.

[Sprotyrover]

Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!

[SydneyRover]

Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!

That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.

[River Don]

Iran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.

[SydneyRover]

Iran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.

And round and around we go.

The sooner the world ends its reliance on oil, the sooner we can find something else to fight about.

[River Don]

Iran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.

And round and around we go.

The sooner the world ends its reliance on oil, the sooner we can find something else to fight about.

This is all about hydrocarbons isn't it?

Russia, Iran, Saudi. Oil and gas.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There was a chance at something like a fair settlement in the mid to late 90s, when Israel had (for them) moderate leaders like Rabin, Peres and Barak and the PLO under Yasser Arafat were reaching out to find an agreement. That came tantalisingly close, but the talks failed. Israel lurched to the far right under Netanyahu and the PLO fell apart and was superceded by the Iran-backed hard liners in Hezbollah and Hamas.

It's desperately sad that the moderates on both sides couldn't contain the hard liners. There won't be another chance like that in our lifetimes. God alone knows where this ends up now.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.

Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?

Nope and BST said the same.  History would tell us what the linkage of these events often means.  Where does it stop or end?

Whether or not Putin has pushed this, who knows. But he's rubbing his hands at the idea of trouble spreading. It makes it so much harder for the moderates everywhere to stand against him, because there are so many flash points.

As I said earlier, it takes a fool not to see that he's engineered the attacks against the Armenians, and the bristling troublemakers in Belgrade. It all fits his aims.

God help us if Trump wins next year and comes back as a vengeful Putin stooge.

[River Don]

Isn't Trump a bit divided now?

He's cold on Ukraine but he's red hot in support of Israel.

[albie]

Interview giving a Palestinian view:
https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1711073290368765952/vid/avc1/1280x720/Uj9zEbIc9CsStXWp.mp4?tag=16

Worth a listen!

[River Don]

The Daily Mail is claiming tonight that Iran is behind this attack.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Daily Mail is claiming tonight that Iran is behind this attack.

I don't usually go with the Mail, but that's a no brainer. Without Iran's support, Hamas doesn't exist.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The horror now is that Israel is going to send land forces into Gaza and there will be a bloodbath. They are going to go all out to destroy Hamas.

It's hard to get the scale of what's happened this weekend. After the peace moves collapsed in 2000, the second Intifada saw about 1000 Israelis and 3000 Palestinians killed in 4 years. There's been something like that many Israelis killed in the past 48 hours, and I fear there will be a hell of a lot more killed on both sides in the coming weeks and months.

[River Don]

Iranian president is calling on other Muslim nations to support Palestinians... That's probably a direct appeal to Saudi.

[SydneyRover]

Heather Cox Richardson 'writes a daily blog ''Letters from an American'' on substack 'a miracle' is an exaggeration but she may be worth a read.

''The Boston College professor offers a valuable primer on Republican extremism – but also progressive achievement

In a media landscape so polluted by politicians addicted to cheap thrills (Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Orange Monster) and the pundits addicted to them (Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Steve Bannon), the success of Heather Cox Richardson is much more than a blast of fresh air. It’s a bona fide miracle''

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/oct/07/democracy-awakening-review-heather-cox-richardson-us-history

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/october-7-2023

[ncRover]

There’s problems on both sides.

But you seem to be an apologist for these recent terrorist actions from Hamas such as the one at the music festival and other evil crimes against civilians. I think that’s a bit sick.

Did UK civilians who have died at the hands of Islamist extremists have it coming for the actions of Bush and Blair destabilising the Middle East and giving rise to ISIS?

If shit was to hit the fan in areas where Israelis and Palestinians hypothetically lived together (something that propaganda and disinformation could easily whip up), who would hold more power - 2 million Palestinian civilians or 30,000 armed Hamas fighters? Likewise for the Israeli defence forces and right-wing militant factions?

Both sides want to destroy each other.

I’m not clued up on the historical context of the land I’ll be honest but I’m just looking at the here and now, the right and wrong and possible unintended consequences.

I don't know what happened at the music festival. Holding it nearby Gaza is a bit daft. I can't see I'm being an apologist, can't you point out where? I detest war and violence, but see how it happens, and see how people in power can avert it in almost all cases. Many people in power, Israel being the prime examle, breed conflict. They are one of the most evil governments on the planet, and have been since their very earliest beginings. Even more evil are their sponsors worldwide, including how they weaponise antisemitism, zionism, Judaism - hypocrisy, obviously.

How many UK citizens died as a result of ISIS? Yes, Bush and Blair -  though in reality it was clearly the people that pulled their strings - willingly created carnage and destruction. And the UK and US do that endlessly worldwide. A UK or US citizen travelling anywhere has the results of that coming at them - it's just how the world works. How are you thinking differently? Moreso the UK citizen who was in the IDF - job description.

Your hypothetical scenario is making a lot of assumptions, most of which wouldn't be there if that happened. What you say gives support to the Israeli hold on the situation which is racist and worse.

There are lots of positive projects in Israel and the Palestinian territories where Jews and Moslems, and Christians, and Israelis, and Palestinians are brought together in positive ways. This is what happened in Ireland too. It can be done. It won't be easy. First major stage is to halt the insane facist Zionists who are to this day being given permission to illegally take Palestinian land. Then, all land taken in the West Bank should be returned, and those who perpetrated the crimes be punished. However, that won't happen because these mental extreme Zionists hold power, and the US won't dare interfer. So we have this, deaths at music festivals, thousands of Palestinians murdered in what is genocide.

One theory I have heard, may or may not be true, is Israel powers knew about the plans of Hamas and let it happen just so they could get stuck in and try to destroy them. They won't ever destroy them, but some in the government will up their falling ratings, including arch facist Netanyahu.

I'll keep saying it too, and it is totally on topic here - Starmer supports these psychos. he is the same proven in his lockdown on free speech, and his inability, or deliberate perversity, and bowing to his Zionist paymasters, to not distinguish between antisemitism and anti Israel. That's not even to mention that Palestinians are Semites by definition. "Human Rights Lawyer" - he's twisted beyond Orwellian proportions.

Sometimes it’s what someone doesn’t say that speaks volumes.

[Nudga]

Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!

That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.

Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.

[glosterred]

No

Glad to hear it  So what are you arguing for? A continuation of the current power structure? Or an attack on Gaza as is being proposed - which will inevitably extend to the West Bank and Lebanon - to wipe out the militants? Or.... ?

No what I am saying is that if the land was shared, as stated in the opinion that I answered it would lead to genocide of those Jews living there. Those of Hamas et Al don’t want peace they want to rid this world of the Jewish people eventually it will be all other religions. That’s why over the last few decades the Jewish communities of Arab countries have all but disappeared and that why the Christian people of Egypt are continuously persecuted. These people don’t want any religion other than Islam in these areas/countries.

[ncRover]

Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!

That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.

Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.

On May 14, 1948, the day Israel declared its independence, the following countries declared war on Israel: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq.

[SydneyRover]

And at root it's all down to us. The Balfour Declaration started all this. 1926. Almost 100 years of conflict now.

BobG

Did you read up on this nc? there are no innocents in this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

[wilts rover]

Hound.
You campaign for the Party.
Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same.
 Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.

No Tommy, I’m astonished that he could support Corbyn so vehemently, to the point where had Labour won, Corbyn would have been PM.
That is a fact.
In recent times he has denounced him so much that you would think he (Corbyn) is the devil.
God knows where we would be now had Labour won and Corbyn had been in charge.
The change in opinion is astonishing.
Yes you campaign for the Party but if the Party wins you know who is going to be in charge.
I’m sure you will agree.

Maybe Palestinian gunmen wouldn't have run amok if someone had listened to them politically?

Which has always been Corbyn's point in most political flashpoints. Because quite clearly the opposite hasn't worked.

But well done for voting against him - we all owe you a great debt seeing how well the country is doing.

[tyke1962]

I read last night that the Labour hierarchy have banned anyone within it's ranks from referring to Israel as an apartheid state .

Which is strange seen as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch describe it in such terms , if caging 2.5m people in an area the size of Barnsley , denying them a voice , human rights suppressing and genocide  , removing water and electricity isn't apartheid then you have to wonder what is .

[wilts rover]

Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!

That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.

Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.

On May 14, 1948, the day Israel declared its independence, the following countries declared war on Israel: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq.

More people with their selective views on history. The Declaration of the State of Israel was an unauthorised, unilateral declaration by Ben Gurion in defiance of a UN resolution.

Before then, Jews and Arabs had lived side by side in Palestine for centuries.

[wilts rover]

I read last night that the Labour hierarchy have banned anyone within it's ranks from referring to Israel as an apartheid state .

Which is strange seen as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch describe it in such terms , if caging 2.5m people in an area the size of Barnsley , denying them a voice , human rights suppressing and genocide  , removing water and electricity isn't apartheid then you have to wonder what is .

Gaza is not part of Israel. Never has been. Nor is the West Bank.

There are Arab parties in the Israeli Parliament.

Amnesty don't call Israel an 'apartheid state':

The report does not set out to compare Israel with South Africa under apartheid or to determine whether Israel is an “apartheid state”—a concept that is not defined in international law. Rather, the report assesses whether specific acts and policies carried out by Israeli authorities today amount in particular areas to the crimes of apartheid and persecution as defined under international law.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

What the situation in the middle-east currently needs are people in UK political parties inflamming it & misrepresenting it.