I'm struggling...

[RedJ]

I'm not saying there should be another referendum. I don't like the result but there's nothing can be done about it now. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.


Besides, does the Prime Minister have the authority to act upon this without an Act of Parliament?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Discussions like this which are going on all over the country are part of the process of "getting on with it".

That was the point of my post half an hour ago. Democracies don't stop at the ballot box. We ALL have to understand and learn from the consequences of decisions.

Go back to the aircraft analogy. Assume there was a vote of the passengers. They vote to fly through the storm. The plane crashes and a handful of people survive.

It would be perverse if they didn't learn from that experience if they were ever in the same situation again.

It's like that with democracy. If you don't follow the consequences of your decisions, how are you going to make rational decisions in future?

In a really vibrant democracy, these discussions never end. Much as Wesley and Rigo think they should.

[Lipsy]

RedJ,

Oh yes, I love the hypocrisy of those telling me to shut up and get on with it, closely followed by being told that I don't appreciate or understand democracy.

As for what happens next. Like a good many things, I don't think that anyone's actually thought it through: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-may-need-second-referendum-and-parliamentary-approval-says-lord-lisvane-former-commons-clerk_uk_5780b842e4b074297db31287?eyn5tdubybqmbcsor

[Bentley Bullet]

Billy

I don't profess to know much about politics in general, and didn't really feel qualified to have a vote in the EU referendum. A lot of people I spoke with prior to the vote felt the same.


For what my unqualified opinion is worth, although I've took a more interested approach lately, I reckon that the initial downtrend in the country's finances was expected, and indeed forecast before the vote, and will stabilise to a better position.

There you go, a rare piece of positiveness.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Then watch what happens over the next few months and years. There were very clear arguments made on both sides about what the economic effects would be.

Watch the effects. See what happens to the value of the pound. To GDP. To unemployment. To trade.

You don't have to follow it second by second. But you can spend 5 minutes every month looking at the way they are going.

Then ask yourself whose predictions were closest to the way things turned out. And then ask yourself who you will trust in future.

If more people did that, we'd have a far healthier democracy, whichever side of the political argument was right or wrong in each case.

[Bentley Bullet]

Billy,

Going back to the aircraft analogy, and assuming there was a vote of the passengers and they voted to fly through the storm. Then the plane crashes and a handful of people survive.

What should the survivors do? Should they ridicule those who voted to fly through the storm, and call them stupid for being conned? Or should they reflect on the situation with a little more respect for those who when all is said and done, voted with the majority?

[BillyStubbsTears]

You've got the analogy wrong BB.

What happens if they vote to fly into the storm and the plane starts creaking and groaning and bits start falling off?

Do those who voted to go round the storm just sit there watching the in-flight entertainment and thinking, "Well. The vote is the vote?"

Or are they justified in pointing out to their fellow passengers that the plane is groaning and creaking and bits are starting to fall off?

[Lipsy]

For this whole analogy thing to work, surely the pilot would also have f**ked off before the plane got anywhere near the sodding storm.

[wesisback]

BB

Discussions like this which are going on all over the country are part of the process of "getting on with it".

That was the point of my post half an hour ago. Democracies don't stop at the ballot box. We ALL have to understand and learn from the consequences of decisions.

Go back to the aircraft analogy. Assume there was a vote of the passengers. They vote to fly through the storm. The plane crashes and a handful of people survive.

It would be perverse if they didn't learn from that experience if they were ever in the same situation again.

It's like that with democracy. If you don't follow the consequences of your decisions, how are you going to make rational decisions in future?

In a really vibrant democracy, these discussions never end. Much as Wesley and Rigo think they should.

On the contrary, I'm more than happy for these discussions to continue.

[IDM]

The fact is that you, and other Norris Cole-type busy bas**rds with too much time on their hands who go out door-knocking, inadvertently have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

This isn't relevant to the discussion, but since you're determined to avoid that altogether anyway, that's not at all what canvassing is. It's about meeting supporters, putting your case across to the undecided and identifying voters. It's not about picking on people who don't agree and chiding them for hours until you wear them down.

I suspect you know this, but I suspect you know a lot of the things you've been told in this thread which is why you only ever respond with vacuous, empty fortune-cookie phrases about air. You have nothing to say but you say it loudly and often.

You've been presented with FACTS - with things that ARE happening now. Your non-argument that no one knows what will happen doesn't fly.

It's just over two weeks after the vote took place.

I'll wait for a few years to elapse from the day we actually leave the European Union before deciding whether the negatives outweigh the positives or vice-versa.

The company I work for has international dealings and we have already lost potential (new) business with a client in the EU, simply due to the uncertainty following the brexit vote.

My other half could in theory, face being deported after brexit.  Probably won't, but again it's the uncertainty that is the problem.

The leave campaign lies have been exposed and the 2 most publicly known politicians (Farage and Johnson) have since buggered off and left anyone else to deal with the mess they helped to make.

Never mind, I'll enjoy breathing this free air before I might die next week.

Get off your f**king pedestal and show some empathy eh?

Top tip Rigo, don't look in a mirror - you might get into an argument with yourself!

[Lipsy]

Feeble attempt at light-heartedness aside, just how happy are Leave voters that Theresa "Immigrants Must Go!" May or Andrea Loathsome will be the person to invoke Article 50 and, presumably, spearhead the negotiations that will ensue?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wesley.

See, it's a bit tough to have meaningful discussions when you're approach is "It's MY party now and anyone who thinks otherwise is a Judas who will be purged."

Or have I read you wrongly?

[Bentley Bullet]

You've got the analogy wrong BB.

What happens if they vote to fly into the storm and the plane starts creaking and groaning and bits start falling off?

Do those who voted to go round the storm just sit there watching the in-flight entertainment and thinking, "Well. The vote is the vote?"

Or are they justified in pointing out to their fellow passengers that the plane is groaning and creaking and bits are starting to fall off?

BST

If the passengers were pre-warned that the plane would initially groan and creak, and bits would start falling off, there would be less panic. If some passengers started shitting themselves though, disregarding the warning that it would happen, and began disrupting some of the calmer passengers by scaremongering, that would make the situation worse.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I won't show any empathy for folk who've got no respect for democracy and other people's views.

Oh the irony. Be still my aching sides.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

And...off we go again.

Right: Back out of analogy and back into the real world.

Financial markets. What they said before the Referendum:

Governor of the Bank of England (and pretty much every other sane economist): There will be a sharp and immediate devaluation of the pound on a Leave vote.

Boris Johnson: The Governor is talking nonsense.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/boris-johnson-dismisses-bank-of-englands-brexit-warning


Michael Gove: "I think the public is fed up of listening to 'experts'"


Result: Biggest ever one day drop in the value of the pound which has fallen to and remains at the lowest value against the dollar since the middle of the Miners' Strike.

That's a start.

[Colemans Left Hook]

Feeble attempt at light-heartedness aside, just how happy are Leave voters that Theresa "Immigrants Must Go!" May or Andrea Loathsome will be the person to invoke Article 50 and, presumably, spearhead the negotiations that will ensue?

not sure how you mean that lips
but this makes interesting reading those bl00dy experts again - this time they were right

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501637/Brown-signs-EU-Treaty-experts-warn-UK-surrender-control-immigration.html

"Buried in the Treaty's small print is a ruling that gives new rights to EU leaders to overturn decisions made by Britain's Immigration and Asylum Tribunal."

yet another mistake from the man who sold the world ( no sorry gold) and forgot about a referendum

[Bentley Bullet]

Bloody 'ell, the Guardian!

Seriously though BST, that's my point. I wonder how much damage Bank of England governor Mark Carney added to the slump by talking the economy down?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bloody 'ell, the Guardian!

Seriously though BST, that's my point. I wonder how much damage Bank of England governor Mark Carney added to the slump by talking the economy down?

Even more damage would have been done if Carney hadn't made the statement.

[Lipsy]

CLH,

Theresa May's got form with dealing with the sensitive/thorny issue of immigration - you send in the vans with a soothing message.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Where on earth do get this idea about "talking down" the economy?

You reckon the financial market people in Singapore and Tokyo woke up the morning after the vote and thought "Oooh! There's going to be a few folk mooching about in England because of what Mark Carney said. Better sell all our pounds"?

That "talking down the economy" line is one that's used by politicians to shut down debate. It goes like this.

1) I reckon that doing X will be good.
2) You reckon that doing X will be bad.
3) If we do X and it turns out well, I'm right.
4) If we do X and it turns out bad, I was still right but it's you to blame for talking doom and gloom.

If you insist on taking that approach, you can comfort yourself that you're always right. But there's no point ever discussing with anyone. Because you're always right.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST

I got the idea from the article you pasted. I'd never heard of it before that.

To answer your question, yes I do believe it's possible that Carney's comments had a negative effect.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So when you wrote this, you'd never heard of the concept before.
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=257994.msg643686#msg643686

Off you trot BB. I've got better things to be doing than this if this is the way you act.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST,

I thought you was on about the terminology 'talking down'. I've never referred to it as that before, and I certainly didn't say I'd never heard of the concept before. YOU SAID THAT!!!

I await your abject apology.

[i_ateallthepies]

Abject apology??? f**king hell, Mad Mick was BB all along.

[Bentley Bullet]

Abject apology??? f**king hell, Mad Mick was BB all along.

I hate being mistaken for Mad Mick, it makes my piss boil.

[Not Now Kato]

It's only money. What price taking your country back and taking it down the shitter in the process?

It's almost certainly only going to be the very poorest that get hurt the most - what's it matter, eh?

At least we can all be proud of our achievement.*



*For the absence of any doubt, I am being mightily sarcastic.

And that's the sad part about it, many of those who will be hurt most are those who voted for it!
 

[Lipsy]

Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.

[Glyn_Wigley]

To answer your question, yes I do believe it's possible that Carney's comments had a negative effect.

Not as negative as the Bank of England saying nothing at all. Unless you have a better idea of what he should have said?

[Bentley Bullet]

Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.

The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?

[Not Now Kato]

Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.

Indeed.  I'm a 'Baby Boomer' and I'm one of the ones being blamed for Brexit.  Yes, I have a comfortable final salary pension, yet I still voted for remain as that was, I believe, the best option for this country and especially for the young finding their way in the world.  Some things are more important than the 'Me Me Me' culture of Thatcherism.
 
My parents, both in their 90's and who both served in the armed forces in WW2 also voted remain and are both saddened and amazed that the Europe they fought for, and the unity that came afterwards, has just been thrown away for a handful of unfulfillable promises.