I'm struggling...

[Not Now Kato]

Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.

The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?

Everything.

[Bentley Bullet]

EH?

[Not Now Kato]

EH?

If you don't understand the risks now BB, then you never will.  Well, not until the shit really hits the fan. Hope you're not one of the poorest across the land, and I hope also that you care about those who are.
 

[Bentley Bullet]

The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?

So they voted out because they felt they had to lose everything?

Of course I understood the risks, that's why I voted to remain. My contribution to this thread isn't about why I voted the way I did, though, it's about why people voted out. The difference with me is I don't want to follow the trend and ridicule the leave voters. I want to discuss why they voted the way they did, and not in a patronising why did they vote the wrong way style.

I don't even know if they did vote the wrong way at this moment in time. People can only speculate.

[darren61]

Probably civil unrest will happen soon, even more than is happening now. If we are a sinking nation according to some on this site why would we invite more to climb onto the lifeboat. Time to look after ourselfs and our kids future. We have people claiming family allowance and sending it back to familys abroad how is that ok?  2 yrs ago my partner died leaving me with a 2yr old and and a 4yr old to bring up, i had to pack my well paid job in to take care of my boys who i couldnt leave even for a minute because they thought i was leaving them. Things are a lot better now but when she died it took four months before i got any money to help me with the boys, I have always worked and payed tax but had to sell my car and other belongings to support us during this period, i cant help thinking if i had arrived from Poland or anywhere else to be honest i would have been given the support i needed.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Things are a lot better now but when she died it took four months before i got any money to help me with the boys, I have always worked and payed tax but had to sell my car and other belongings to support us during this period, i cant help thinking if i had arrived from Poland or anywhere else to be honest i would have been given the support i needed.

You actually think that the government departments that have been systematically 'streamlined' and then underfunded under austerity - by the UK government, not the EU - till they are as shit as they are now are somehow magically efficient if you have a Polish name?

[darren61]

Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.

[idler]

Had the EU reined in it's federal policy and promised or carried out the profound reforms for greater democracy that it is now talking about I and perhaps many others would have voted remain.
The EU seems to be splitting with Germany, Poland and a few more worried France and Italy are going to try and spend their way out of it with Germany footing the bill.

[no eyed deer]

Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.

You tell em mate.  But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.

I have as I'm disabled. And I've worked inside the system so I've seen it from both sides - have you? Do I have your permission to spout off now?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.

You tell em mate.  But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.

See above post. You might learn something. But no doubt you're too blinkered to.

[IDM]

I won't show any empathy for folk who've got no respect for democracy and other people's views.

You just have no respect for other peoples' views, period!!

If you're talking about me, I respect democracy and I certainly respect that folks have different views.  I might not agree, but I respect their rights.

BUT, I DO NOT respect the lies and hypocrisy shown by politicians - of all sides - but in particularly the shambles of the brexit campaign.

Note that I said " C A M P A I G N " , and not " V O T E "..

See, I spelled it out for you - perhaps you get it now???

[no eyed deer]

Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.

You tell em mate.  But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.

See above post. You might learn something.

The world is run by money men . They will still get rich and the poor will pay . What's to learn .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.

You tell em mate.  But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.

See above post. You might learn something.

The world is run by money men . They will still get rich and the poor will pay . What's to learn .

In your case? Humility springs to mind.

[darren61]

Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.

I have as I'm disabled. And I've worked inside the system so I've seen it from both sides - have you? Do I have your permission to spout off now?

Yes! go on mate, knock yourself out

[IDM]

The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?

So they voted out because they felt they had to lose everything?

Of course I understood the risks, that's why I voted to remain. My contribution to this thread isn't about why I voted the way I did, though, it's about why people voted out. The difference with me is I don't want to follow the trend and ridicule the leave voters. I want to discuss why they voted the way they did, and not in a patronising why did they vote the wrong way style.

I don't even know if they did vote the wrong way at this moment in time. People can only speculate.

BB - from my perspective I am not ridiculing leave voters, sorry if that comes across that way - I am more concerned with the campaign deceit.  Everyone votes as they see fit.

[Bentley Bullet]

Glyn,

Do you think having worked inside the system, therefore knowing the ins and outs of benefits available, the ones that are not always offered to ordinary people who don't know they are entitled to them, has been somewhat of an advantage to you?

[wilts rover]

I don't believe Darren's case is that unusal - it's my guess that's why the majority of people voted leave - because 'them was coming over ere gettin our jobs/benefits'.

It's been the same throughout history. Whenever there has been a period of economic downturn, blame it on the foreigners - rather than national government policy.

Do you really think that kicking out all the Polish people on benefits from this country will see your benefits go up Darren? Because it wont. Any saving there are will go on keeping taxes down for the richest - who then seek not to pay even that amount by tax avoidance.

The EU with all its problems gave security to our economy. Now that security has been (is in the process of being taken away) why are some people suprised at the uncertainty of the vacuum it has created?

The big shame of all this is that David Cameron could have allayed all Darren's fears and uncertainties by admitting this during the campaign - it's not the EU (or Polish people on benefit) making you struggle - it's me and my policies. Suprisingly he didn't. Jeremy Corbyn did - and was attacked for it by his own party - but that's a different conversation.

[darren61]

What you are saying Wilts makes a lot of sense to me, its hard not to want to kick back in some way when you feel you have been kicked yourself.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn,

Do you think having worked inside the system, therefore knowing the ins and outs of benefits available, the ones that are not always offered to ordinary people who don't know they are entitled to them, has been somewhat of an advantage to you?

Not when the manpower has been decimated and more and more procedures are now computerised. Badly. Hence why claims take longer and longer to resolve, because there are fewer people employed to process them and it is much harder to actually talk to a real person for help making a claim. You cannot now go into a Jobcentre or DSS and talk to someone face to face. You now have to ring a phone number that you can't afford to pay for, wait for God knows how long to work your way through the queue until someone answers it (still costing someone who can ill afford to pay for it), and finally speak to someone who doesn't actually work for the DWP but is one of the gormless employees of Capita who aren't properly trained to process claims (and don't know the benefits system) and are continually pressured by Capita to get one call over as quickly as possible (how isn't important) and answer the next one as that's how they are paid by the government, regardless of the quality of service. I've had more different (and usually incorrect) advice from different call centre people than I care to remember.

There's the problem. The civil service and it's ethos of public service has been decimated. And it's been going on for a long time so each squeeze is even tighter than the last.

[Bentley Bullet]

It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Because there aren't?
Because that stupidly propagated figure includes foreigners who are pensioners, stay-at-home mothers and students?

Sounds good though doesn't it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Rigo

You were on the winning side. You're doing plenty of squawking?

Remind me what your point was?

[Glyn_Wigley]

It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?

No, it makes me wonder where that spurious number has sprung from when the Government don't even know the figures.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10361971/Britain-admits-it-has-no-figures-on-EU-welfare-tourist-numbers.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

Click

[wilts rover]

It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?

No, it makes me wonder how people can be so seduced by 'a gross and totally irresponsible misrepresentation  of the facts' - when even The Sun admitted it wasn't true.
http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/10/14/true-or-false/

[Lipsy]

And when you peel away the lies, Leave voters just shrug and mutter summat about democracy. Every. Single. Time.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?

No, it makes me wonder how people can be so seduced by 'a gross and totally irresponsible misrepresentation  of the facts' - when even The Sun admitted it wasn't true.
http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/10/14/true-or-false/

Three years ago! Surely the word would have gotten round by now..?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Rigo

You were on the winning side. You're doing plenty of squawking?

Remind me what your point was?

I'm not doing any squawking.

The decision isn't going to effect me much because 1) life has taught me to move on quickly and adapt to change, 2) I live within my means and not beyond them and 3) I'm not pretending to be the next Tony Blair when posting on an internet forum.

The only ones with no respect for democracy, many of whom are probably living beyond their means are middle-class wannabees and door-knockers.

You are rather loquacious for someone who doesn't feel the need to make a point.

Strange character. I'm sure you're happy in your own little world though.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You really are a deeply unpleasant person aren't you?