Ukraine

[danumdon]

BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.

The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.

"deeds in Crimea" - are you talking annexation, invasion, free vote of mainly self declared Russians resulting in a 90%+ decision to leave Ukraine after a coup displacing the previously elected president with a following murderous rampage against ehtnic Russians in the country, or Russians committing genocide?

BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.

The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.

"deeds in Crimea" - are you talking annexation, invasion, free vote of mainly self declared Russians resulting in a 90%+ decision to leave Ukraine after a coup displacing the previously elected president with a following murderous rampage against ehtnic Russians in the country, or Russians committing genocide?

Regardless of what you say this was part of an independent country and what happened was not for Russia to decide either way.

If the rest of the world stand for this type of internal agitation followed by forcing an unconstitutional vote on another countries territory then prepare for a war who's consequences would far beyond the the current understanding of all.

In effect this is why the world will not stand idly by and allow this to become the status quo, Putin will not be allowed to express any sort of a victory.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.

And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee  to incite the situation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I give up.

Forces under the control of the Russian-Ukraine President opened fire on peaceful demonstrators. And it's the Americans to blame.

It's like arguing with a Christian fundamentalist. Doesn't matter what argument you come up with, it's always the will of God or America.

[glosterred]

BRR

Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.

And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee  to incite the situation.

There has been lots of shit written on this thread, but the last sentence

“Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee  to incite the situation. “

Is up there with with the best/worst of them, it is absolutely laughable

[Bristol Red Rover]

Danumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I give up.

Forces under the control of the Russian-Ukraine President opened fire on peaceful demonstrators. And it's the Americans to blame.

It's like arguing with a Christian fundamentalist. Doesn't matter what argument you come up with, it's always the will of God or America.

Oh come on, you know there were agitators well established within, if not organising the pro EU demonstrators. The head of the police, who had the call on whether to fire on demonstrators in an extreme situation, did not give that instruction. It appears arguable as to where that came from. But sure, go along with a one sided pro US agenda if you like. Just don't be pretending or be deluded that there was not very heavy agitation spurring on the violence.

[wilts rover]

You will be telling us the Cuban Revolution and 1917 Russian Revolution were coups next BRR.

Or is it an overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you like = revolution. An overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you dont like - coup?

Russia has intereferred in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power - because he doesnt think Ukraine should exist. His troops carrying out his orders under his invasion have committed multiple atrocities on thousands of Ukranian civilians. No Ukranian soldier has been on Russian soil.

You are excusing a fascist dictator and I am afraid on the wrong side of history here.

[BillyStubbsTears]

My grandad who was the finest socialist and the smartest man I ever knew once told me, "Never argue with Jehovah's Witnesses or The Far Left."

I'm remembering why now, after engaging with BRR.

[danumdon]

Danumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia.

OK, lets get this right, so you believe that internal machinations in the Ukraine has required the Russians to invade an independent country, annex parts of it after holding unconstitutional referendums, kill countless thousands of none combatant old people,women and children, physically wipe out a great many towns and villages of every habitual building or service, managed to tamper with a nuclear disaster zone to the extent that radiation levels reached higher then they were post the original meltdown,pour in thousands more young and conscript personnel to meet their grisly ends in the burnt out remains of armored vehicles and tanks and generally threaten a vast swave of northern and eastern Europe of unimaginable horrors if they so much as mention the word NATO,.

Finally we have the individual himself, Putin the cancer riddled despot, who sits at his ridicules oversized table, scheming and yearning for years for a greater USSR again without a care or passing thought for all the millions of people in countless countries he has either intimidated, threatened, maimed or killed during his reign as the despotic and deranged one state, all time leader of this dysfunctional country.

And YOU want to blame the USA and the free west for all of this.

Nutter.

[SydneyRover]

''Ukrainian government claims to have destroyed another Russian ship
The Ukrainian government has said that it has destroyed another Russian ship.

The ministry of defence claimed that Ukrainian Bayraktar TB2 had hit the landing craft of the Serna project, tweeting: “The traditional parade of the Russian Black Sea fleet on May 9 this year will be held near Snake Island - at the bottom of the sea.”''

the Guardian live

[Bristol Red Rover]

You will be telling us the Cuban Revolution and 1917 Russian Revolution were coups next BRR.

Or is it an overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you like = revolution. An overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you dont like - coup?

Russia has intereferred in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power - because he doesnt think Ukraine should exist. His troops carrying out his orders under his invasion have committed multiple atrocities on thousands of Ukranian civilians. No Ukranian soldier has been on Russian soil.

You are excusing a fascist dictator and I am afraid on the wrong side of history here.

Are you saying there wasn't a sustained NATO, EU, USA interference in the running of the Ukraine prior to 2014? Are you saying there was no collusion especially between US and right wing extremists prior to then, and onwards?

The UKraine always has been split, there is a stong Russian pressence there, more in the east obvioulsy. Till the west Ukraine decided to overthrow the government because it wasn't playing to their side - ie joining the EU, these two groups mainly got on. Following that undemocratic action, the western side came down hard on the eastern side's objection to being pushed around. The killings were significant.

I could go on. There are two sides to this, very clearly so. You and most others here regurgitate the BBC. The BBC is explicitly a pro UK establishment media outlet, always has been, always will be. Of course you're not seeing a balance of views there. Likewise for most other media with their funding from the establishment either via taxes or private investment. Regurgitating such sources puts you on the establishment side of history, enjoy.

[Bristol Red Rover]

My grandad who was the finest socialist and the smartest man I ever knew once told me, "Never argue with Jehovah's Witnesses or The Far Left."

I'm remembering why now, after engaging with BRR.

I'm not a Jehova, nor "far left" whatever that means in your black and white, monochrome world.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Danumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia.

OK, lets get this right, so you believe that internal machinations in the Ukraine has required the Russians to invade an independent country, annex parts of it after holding unconstitutional referendums, kill countless thousands of none combatant old people,women and children, physically wipe out a great many towns and villages of every habitual building or service, managed to tamper with a nuclear disaster zone to the extent that radiation levels reached higher then they were post the original meltdown,pour in thousands more young and conscript personnel to meet their grisly ends in the burnt out remains of armored vehicles and tanks and generally threaten a vast swave of northern and eastern Europe of unimaginable horrors if they so much as mention the word NATO,.

Finally we have the individual himself, Putin the cancer riddled despot, who sits at his ridicules oversized table, scheming and yearning for years for a greater USSR again without a care or passing thought for all the millions of people in countless countries he has either intimidated, threatened, maimed or killed during his reign as the despotic and deranged one state, all time leader of this dysfunctional country.

And YOU want to blame the USA and the free west for all of this.

Nutter.

Following 2014 when there was an undemocratic taking down of government by the pro EU groups in Ukraine, there was some Russian action, arguably undemocratic. Howecver, are you saying you approve of the undemocratic action of the pro EU groups that caused this?

And do you think the US had nothing whatsoever to do with the regime change in the Ukraine? Strange that coz they have a wonderfully rich history of doing that all over the world. There's almost no country in the whole America's where they haven't instigated regime change, and in the process caused the deaths of millions as they put in place a parade of fascist leaders. But you know that.

I am not supporting Putin, said many times, but I also don't buy the one sided propoganda view you do. It's so bleedin obvious you're being lied to.

[wilts rover]

For someone who claims to countering the 'one-sided propoganda' you have yet to detail, or condem, the Russian interference in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power.

For someone who claims to be a socialist you appear to have a dismisive attitude to people rising up against a repressive government they dont like in their country.

You might think you are giving 'balance' but there is no balance to give when only one side is murdering civilians. All you are doing is legitimising fasicism. Putin doesn't care if you support him or not. What he wants you to do is attack and de-legitimise his enemies so he can crush them.

I don't watch the BBC much, (the odd music programme, history doc & the rugby this am and wish I hadn't). But I can give you a list of all the people in Ukraine who I follow on twitter reporting the situation there if you like. You wont enjoy them tho, they tell the facts of what Putin is doing to there.

[normal rules]

Putin is a complete and utter whopper. Perhaps the biggest global whopper of the 21st century. Invading Ukraine will be his ultimate demise.

Ukraine however are not without their whoppers. Take the Azov Regiment for example.  Maybe it’s these Nazis that Putin wants to wipe out.
There will be members of this militia that are more than capable of war crimes. Some will have no regard for the Geneva Convention.
We will never hear of it though in our MSM, as they are the perceived good guys.

At the beginning of March One of the Azov regt commanders put out a Facebook post stating that any captured Russian soldiers would be “cut up like pigs”
Ukrainian right wing social media is full of images of dead Russians with mocking, joking remarks.

Russia invaded Ukraine.
Russian troops are committing war crimes.
Ukrainian troops will be doing the same.
That’s what happens in war.

[River Don]

I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.

BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.

Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?         

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.

And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee  to incite the situation.

There has been lots of shit written on this thread, but the last sentence

“Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee  to incite the situation. “

Is up there with with the best/worst of them, it is absolutely laughable

You know different?

That there was a variety of western involvement before and during the demonstrations is clear enough, or at the very least most probable no matter what your consumption of news is. That there was ultra right wing involvement in the the demos, in the organisation of the demos is well known. There are also many with strong pro western, vehement anti Russian views within the police and those directing the police. Not very unlikely someone might give the order to shoot, particularly as the ultra right wing activists had targetted the police, and were shooting at the police.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.

BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.

Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?         

What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?

That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.

[River Don]

I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.

BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.

Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?         

What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?

That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.

It really is only two choices. Anglo style democracy, as flawed as that is or totalitarianism.

I know which I'd go for

[Bristol Red Rover]

For someone who claims to countering the 'one-sided propoganda' you have yet to detail, or condem, the Russian interference in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power.

For someone who claims to be a socialist you appear to have a dismisive attitude to people rising up against a repressive government they dont like in their country.

You might think you are giving 'balance' but there is no balance to give when only one side is murdering civilians. All you are doing is legitimising fasicism. Putin doesn't care if you support him or not. What he wants you to do is attack and de-legitimise his enemies so he can crush them.

I don't watch the BBC much, (the odd music programme, history doc & the rugby this am and wish I hadn't). But I can give you a list of all the people in Ukraine who I follow on twitter reporting the situation there if you like. You wont enjoy them tho, they tell the facts of what Putin is doing to there.

Ukraine was and is deivided re wanting Western rule. It was not an overwhelming uprising, that's a populist myth if ever there was one. Kiev is in the western side and tends to reflect the pro western support. A very different story in the east, and almost overwhelmingly opposite in Crimea.

Ukraine has been targetting and murdering civilians since 2014 - in many incidences across the county, most notably in the Donbass, and still today. Even during the "revolution" there were many who were opposing the desire for EU membership burnt alive in the trade union building in Kiev. Do you think the Azov Brigade weren't using human shields?

You use the fascist term in regards to Putin. I think that's simplistic but most of all repeating rhetoric against him. I think he's icy cold, calculating, almost unhuman, but then many leaders are similar - they're all gangsters, and mainly nasty and dishonest.

On the pro EU side of the Ukraine there are people who are truly fascist and openly Nazi. That's not just the old Azov Brigade but some people in their parliament and people in various positions of power. That's not t o excuse Putin, but it is to make clear this is not a two dimentional Reaganesque good v evil as some like to couch it. Lot's of bad guys on both sides. But all the propoganda, the popular down the pub view, the establishment, the economic/coporate/banking, the military interests are all obviously pumping out as much to slag off one side only. Why? Because they profit from a Ukraine in NATO and in the EU - not those down the pub of course, they lose out whichever way as the government takes their money to give to the corporations to spend on arms killing people. It's sick, all of it, not goodies in there at all.

[River Don]

BRR

Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?

[Bristol Red Rover]

I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.

BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.

Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?         

What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?

That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.

It really is only two choices. Anglo style democracy, as flawed as that is or totalitarianism.

I know which I'd go for

No, not even now it isn't, though it's been made far harder as the two powers have walked the people of Ukraine into abject poverty - except for the oligarchs that will rise up on both sides. But the powers that be want you to see only that choice. Who wins? They do. Russians and western bankers and corporate institutions. They both milk the Ukraine if you support the view that it's "us or them", "left v right", "Russia or the West".

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?

Yes.

[River Don]

According to intercepts of Russian soldiers, they have been stunned at the wealth they have found in Ukraine. Which is why they have been so busy nicking stuff.

[River Don]

BRR

Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?

Yes.

Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?

Yes.

Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?

A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.

[River Don]

BRR

Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?

Yes.

Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?

A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.

You really believe that?

Most Ukrainians want to be a part of the EU. They want to join NATO

Russian speakers in the East are fighting and resisting with everything they have against Russian repression.

Honestly, I cannot understand your point of view.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?

Could have been better handled without NATO/EU making their claim. Now, a bit messed up but the only way is oroper negotiation - the West's puppet isn't really best placed for that.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?

Yes.

Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?

A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.

You really believe that?

Most Ukrainians want to be a part of the EU. They want to join NATO

Russian speakers in the East are fighting and resisting with everything they have against Russian repression.

Honestly, I cannot understand your point of view.

Where do you get the clear majority of Ukraine wanted in with the EU?

Did you miss the Ukraine forces killing Russian speakers in the East? It's complex, but your story of Russian speakers being against Russia is a bit simplistic, at least not wholly true, and possibly way wrong.