Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Chris Black come back on July 26, 2013, 02:12:59 am
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I am going to get swept away here in a tsunami of over optimism I suspect but I personally am uncomfortable about the motivations of any investor coming to the club without an existing link. We are a club with nothing to offer other than to people with ties and obligations to the club and town. No ground of our own, no fan base, no star players and no record whatsoever of increasing crowds anywhere enough to sustain a good Championship club let alone anything higher. Especially because of Richardson we should be very cautious about outside folk bearing gifts and promising the world. I hope JR knows what he is doing.
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I can't help wondering if Westferry is involved here. Once bitten, twice shy I hope. Or once attempted arson, twice keep the matches out of harm's way.
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I suppose that the millions of quid generated by 1 season in the Premier League plus parachute payments thereafter may be motivation enough for some.
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people dont come in to it £150mill a year does though
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Maybe some people are beginning to realise why the VSC was formed and why it's important that its still here.
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I am going to get swept away here in a tsunami of over optimism I suspect but I personally am uncomfortable about the motivations of any investor coming to the club without an existing link. We are a club with nothing to offer other than to people with ties and obligations to the club and town. No ground of our own, no fan base, no star players and no record whatsoever of increasing crowds anywhere enough to sustain a good Championship club let alone anything higher. Especially because of Richardson we should be very cautious about outside folk bearing gifts and promising the world. I hope JR knows what he is doing.
Nah, he's not a clue that bloke. Knows sod all about business.
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Maybe some people are beginning to realise why the VSC was formed and why it's important that its still here.
Martin has a good point here Gentlemen. It's at times like this a stronger trust gives fans a stronger chance of getting their voices heard and influencing those who are making decisions at the top, including potential investors!
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Have the VSC been involved in the investment discussions thus far?
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Have the VSC been involved in the investment discussions thus far?
Not directly in the discussions, no.
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Maybe some people are beginning to realise why the VSC was formed and why it's important that its still here.
Based on BJW's response above, can I ask, what part does the VSC play in the present scenario?
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None I would say. How could we stop them selling the club to who they wanted if we didnt agree with it?
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Chris,
You have taken the words from my mouth. The directors of VSC will have to earn their corn on this very thorny problem. Its very easy to be critical especially when you are kept in the dark. Heads down boys and make sure the heart of the club remains on this current track of improvement.
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As I've already stated elsewhere the VSC is working hard on behalf of its members (and the wider DRFC supporter base) but until the talks progress we have nothing to add.
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None I would say. How could we stop them selling the club to who they wanted if we didnt agree with it?
Quite right Gaz, from a shareholding position at least. Whilst the VSC as a trust owns c115,000 shares in Patienceform, this is dwarfed by the holdings of JR, TB and DW. If those
However, dont let that fool you into thinking that the VSC has no influence. The club recognises that the VSC represents a significant number of supporters, which are after all the lifeblood of any club, and our work with the club over the past 15 months on the IRWT project has strengthened those bonds immeasurably.
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As I've already stated elsewhere the VSC is working hard on behalf of its members (and the wider DRFC supporter base) but until the talks progress we have nothing to add.
Martin, could you give us an idea of what "working hard" entails, if the VSC are not involved in the discussions?
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I can't help wondering if Westferry is involved here. Once bitten, twice shy I hope. Or once attempted arson, twice keep the matches out of harm's way.
so tell me what westferry did wrong to us. they was intremental in saving us then sold it to JR cheap
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As I've already stated elsewhere the VSC is working hard on behalf of its members (and the wider DRFC supporter base) but until the talks progress we have nothing to add.
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Wouldn't it be a severe anti-climax if the investment was just a local brewery supplying their specialist brew for less than Boddingtons.
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I can't help wondering if Westferry is involved here. Once bitten, twice shy I hope. Or once attempted arson, twice keep the matches out of harm's way.
so tell me what westferry did wrong to us. they was intremental in saving us then sold it to JR cheap
Correct, without Westferry`s involvement post Richardson, we would n`t be on here discussing this now!
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Many people forget that, Filo. There was a lot of suspicion at the time because Westferry were IoM registered, as was Dinard Trading. People thought there was some link and that Ken Richardson was behind them. There was no link and it was to remove that suspicion that the VSC was set up. People even assumed JR was Richardson's puppet for a while!
There was no link but, due to the suspicions at teh time and the short period Westferry were involved, people forget.
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My memory is not what it was. Could someone remind me:
When you join the VSC, you receive a share certificate. Which organisation was that share in?
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Its a share certificate in the Viking Supporter's Co-operative.
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My memory is not what it was. Could someone remind me:
When you join the VSC, you receive a share certificate. Which organisation was that share in?
As I understand it the share certificate is 1 share in the VSC, which in turn holds the shares they`ve acquired in patienceform
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Thanks Rob/Filo
So you can be a shareholder of the VSC but not a member?
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Not quite. The VSC is an IPS, which in basic terms is a member-orientated society. Each member holds 1 share in the IPS, obtained through their continued membership. The VSC hold the shares in Patienceform on behalf of its membership.
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So if your VSC membership lapses you lose your share?
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all this talk of tissues is a worry, is jr to stand down? is this just investment for a year, to get the ireland squad fit and playing, world cup year and all that?
will we feel like we did during the "experiment" and after come to that.
there are so many questions,flying around in my mind.
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So if your VSC membership lapses you lose your share?
Yes
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Where does the share go? Into the ether?
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As stated in our rules it is transferred back to the ownership of the society. Once you renew your share becomes yours again.
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Well... I trust the three amigos will see us right.
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When you join the VSC, you receive a share certificate.
I joined. But haven't received a share certificate and am still shown as not being a member. :mad:
I no longer get the po-up though :woohoo:
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As stated in our rules it is transferred back to the ownership of the society. Once you renew your share becomes yours again.
Thank you Lee.
So, in summary, your share gives you a share of the ownership of the cooperative, but you need to pay an annual fee to maintain this ownership?
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Getting back on topic this may interest
http://drfc-exiles.co.uk/?p=1011&preview=true
:rtid:
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It may be just me, but does anyone else think of Richardson when they read that?... it just doesn't sit well with me looking at it the way the writer puts it, and I'm not sure why.
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LJ, This (I know it's Wiki but it's accurate) may be helpful in explaingin how the trust works. The key line for me is: "The share typically acts as a "membership ticket", and voting is on a "one member one vote" basis"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_Provident_Society
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LJ, This (I know it's Wiki but it's accurate) may be helpful in explaingin how the trust works. The key line for me is: "The share typically acts as a "membership ticket", and voting is on a "one member one vote" basis"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_Provident_Society
If a share is a "membership ticket", why would you have an additional membership fee?
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I had a share certificate once, I have no idea what has happened to it.
After I renew at the AGM is there any chance I could get hold of a new copy?
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To invest in things like the two youth teams we sponsored last season, do commnuity work (e.g. multigame tickets for Bluebell Wood Hospice), Purchase shares in the club etc. etc.
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To invest in things like the two youth teams we sponsored last season, do commnuity work (e.g. multigame tickets for Bluebell Wood Hospice), Purchase shares in the club etc. etc.
I can see why you would want more money to do that. But, in requiring a membership fee, and thus dictating that a share can expire, don't you devalue the concept of buying a share - which as you've pointed out, is itself intended to act as a membership ticket?
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In years gone, the price of the share was £15 with membership fee on top.
As the nominal value of the share is £1 which gives you the right to vote & other membership benefits, it was decided to include the share in the price of membership. At just £1 a month to become a part of your supporters' trust which is run by volunteer fans, for their fellow supporters I reckon that's really good value.
Of course the trusts at clubs like Portsmouth and York have come to the fore in recent times but it's just as important to have an active trust building on the good times and cementing success off the pitch as it is to have one there looking out for clubs in trouble.
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LJ, This (I know it's Wiki but it's accurate) may be helpful in explaingin how the trust works. The key line for me is: "The share typically acts as a "membership ticket", and voting is on a "one member one vote" basis"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_Provident_Society
If a share is a "membership ticket", why would you have an additional membership fee?
Because its in the rules. All members have to buy a share, they then have to maintain their membership.
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I'm learning all sorts today.
So, who sets the membership fee? Could it be set at a level that would dissuade renewals, and thus encourage shares to revert back to the cooperative?
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Of course it could, but what would be the point?
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If the investment does not go through are the three owners capable of sustaining the expense required to keep us in the championship. Also do all of them really want to.
We can talk about the unknown of accepting the investors but there is an unknown about the present owners wanting to continue in their roles. I am not saying they do not or they do. But the last time we were in the championship, two of the owners stepped aside for a period only to return when relegation was inevitable.
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Of course it could, but what would be the point?
As far as I can tell, there would be no point whatsoever.
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If the investment does not go through are the three owners capable of sustaining the expense required to keep us in the championship. Also do all of them really want to.
We can talk about the unknown of accepting the investors but there is an unknown about the present owners wanting to continue in their roles. I am not saying they do not or they do. But the last time we were in the championship, two of the owners stepped aside for a period only to return when relegation was inevitable.
It's not an investment, it's a takeover.
But one of the current co-owners might not be involved if it does go through.
Maybe that's what's holding the deal up.
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I was told it was a takeover a few weeks ago but that as never been said officially so should that be in the rumours site.
Does one of the current co-owners still want to be involved?
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Of course it could, but what would be the point?
As far as I can tell, there would be no point whatsoever.
But I hope you share the Board's view that it isn't at a level that dissuades the membership. 2 years ago it cost £27 to join the VSC, for the past 12 months it has only been £12.
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But £27 was £15 + £12 so you can join know and not pay £15 for one share?
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But I hope you share the Board's view that it isn't at a level that dissuades the membership. 2 years ago it cost £27 to join the VSC, for the past 12 months it has only been £12.
I do share that view Lee. I'd be surprised if the price alone was enough to deter anyone.
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If the investment does not go through are the three owners capable of sustaining the expense required to keep us in the championship. Also do all of them really want to.
We can talk about the unknown of accepting the investors but there is an unknown about the present owners wanting to continue in their roles. I am not saying they do not or they do. But the last time we were in the championship, two of the owners stepped aside for a period only to return when relegation was inevitable.
It's not an investment, it's a takeover.
But one of the current co-owners might not be involved if it does go through.
Maybe that's what's holding the deal up.
Would that necessarily be a bad thing
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Can see it being Dick Watson not staying on. He's not been around much for a while.
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In terms of not being around two of the three have been to far more matches than the other as far as I remember.
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I would guess its TB who is holding things up.
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I'm fascinated by whats happening. It could all come to nothing, or we lose say DW if the new "investors" come in, or with the new investors there could be added investment from the other three even if only a small amount.
Whatever happens, I hope the new investment is well managed investment in the clubs future and not too pie in the sky premiership or bust.
What are the motivations of the new investors if they are not simply "fans"? They won't get any return from us simply maintaining Championship status. No doubt thats all been said before :coat:
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I remember it was also said what was the motivation of DW and TB as when they invested in DRFC they were not fans of DRFC either.
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This would be the first ' out of town' owner and for sure the only possible motivation can be the spoils that the Premiership brings these days to clubs .. just further augmented with the arrival of another media channel BT Sports.
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There have been recent 'out of towners' in the guise of Mr Kenneth Richardson - and the rest is history. The KM2 have through their company Keepmoat been closely associated with the town for several decades and after selling up and making a pile wanted to put something back into the town. Why anyone who wasn't loking to do a bit of good or was a lifelong fan would want to invest in Rovers is an absolute mystery.
We also have to look at ourselves. Do we want a club that is close to us (Chairman as much a lifelong fan as we are) and slowly building to hold our own in the Championship with our own identity doing things our way - or do we want to become the plaything of some rich benefactor hellbent on forcing us into the Premier League and without consideration for the mong term sustainability of the club or the identity of the club?
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Yes please I will take being forced into the Premiership every time.
I want to go down to the Keepmoat and watch my team win every game. If that means we get into the premiership and we are playing the likes of Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea etc etc bring it on.
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We`ve got to face facts, JR, TB and DW are not getting any younger, at some point in the future whether we like it or not, some one else will be in charge, do we wait while that time comes and take pot luck on who takes over or do the current owners look now and ensure the club is left in good hands? It`s a difficult one, but we have to trust the judgement of the current owners on whether this investment is good for the long term benefit of the club or not, all we can hope is they get this decision right
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I've said it before, I believe JR's ambition from day one was to get them to the prem and then find a buyer! But since the lower leagues were changed an rebranded (one of the best most succsessful rebrandings of any British enterprises I can think of) JR and co can no longer compete financially in the championship, which has lead him to seek out other options to make sure he sees them compete and play in the prem in his life time! And I think it will be a takeover on some level (jr to stay on as a figure head at most) just a fans opinion
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What baffles me Filo, is when folk who claim to care passionately about our club, just don't do a bit of background reading of the information that's available via this site to educate themselves about what the VSC is all about.
I just think paying £1 a month it's an easy way of showing a commitment that helps safeguard the club. As you say, many are old enough and wise enough to know things can go awfully wrong and if we do not have the right representation and stake, we could be in deep doo doo.
Thankfully we currently have enough to be effective but, we could be more effective with more people on board to help us work in partnership with whomever is in charge. I keep looking at the Swansea example and what they have achieved in recent times.
It seems some folk get confused about what that £1 represents. It's nothing to do with participating on a forum!
It's a very small investment that means so much more.
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What baffles me Filo, is when folk who claim to care passionately about our club, just don't do a bit of background reading of the information that's available via this site to educate themselves about what the VSC is all about.
I just think paying £1 a month it's an easy way of showing a commitment that helps safeguard the club. As you say, many are old enough and wise enough to know things can go awfully wrong and if we do not have the right representation and stake, we could be in deep doo doo.
Thankfully we currently have enough to be effective but, we could be more effective with more people on board to help us work in partnership with whomever is in charge. I keep looking at the Swansea example and what they have achieved in recent times.
It seems some folk get confused about what that £1 represents. It's nothing to do with participating on a forum!
It's a very small investment that means so much more.
If ever there was a time to really understand what role the VSC players, it`s probably now, and as you say £1 a month is hardly bank breaking is it?
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What baffles me Filo, is when folk who claim to care passionately about our club, just don't do a bit of background reading of the information that's available via this site to educate themselves about what the VSC is all about.
Or you could ask questions and read the answers.
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i think JR will hand over the club to someone he believes will have the best intrests of the club . Lets face it he built this club brick by brick from f*** all so why would he decide to hand his project over to someone else who would destroy it? to me that would make no sense.ike others on here i beleive he will have some kind of role to play at the club even if he was bought out fully. The money needed to take us to the next level is going to be difficult to find and as each season goes by will cost more. Maybe just maybe rhis could be a deal thst suits all concerned even the fans. JR and co sell to a company that will look after rovers, Our playing squad gets more investment and we progress as a football club on the field . I must admit though one of my concerns is will the good work of the IRWT project and such like carry on , however its just as likely this another good reason to buy our club and can be expanded further still. Time will tell as they say one things for sure JR and co wont make this decision lightly and whatever the outcome we should respect the descision made even though it may not be what every fan wants .
For me i would prefer no buyout as it means our club is safeguarded however i also understand the need for progression and that all things good and bad come to an end at some point
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We all trust JR but we also need some guarantees for ourselves. The VSC should be setting the potential new owners criteria for what they need to guarantee in order to get our support. We don't want any of the crap we have seen at clubs like Cardiff where the new owners changed the colour of the kits unilaterally. The damn cheek of anything like that. Who on earth are new owners to start dictating matters like that. We need guarantees NOW before any deal is concluded.
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
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i think that someone at the top of the VSC hierachy actually does but just cant say ( this is my gut feeling), notice how there has been no panic and the club have a good rappore with the VSC . If there was concerns then i am sure that they would have been put on here by certain members but i dont see any . Naturally everyone who supports our great club has concerns myself included . But its belief and only that and nothing else that makes me think whatever the outcome we will be alright.
On the cardiff shirts thing the owners got the red shirts in as they are seen as lucky in malaysia . These are Irish investors so the colour the would go for would be green , now on that basis i think we did ok in green last time we played.. In all seriousness CBCB i see your point and its a valid one in regard to owners doing what the f**k they want but hopefully we will as a club see the benefits
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i think that someone at the top of the VSC hierachy actually does but just cant say ( this is my gut feeling), notice how there has been no panic and the club have a good rappore with the VSC . If there was concerns then i am sure that they would have been put on here by certain members but i dont see any . Naturally everyone who supports our great club has concerns myself included . But its belief and only that and nothing else that makes me think whatever the outcome we will be alright.
:that:
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
It's these kind of comments that disturb me. 17 words in that statement and only 2 words have any meaning Influence and outcome
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I thought 'kidding' wasn't bad either...
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
Perhaps not but I feel we should wait and find out what the deal is first before we get too concerned. I mean there is a chance it could be a good outcome.
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
Perhaps not but I feel we should wait and find out what the deal is first before we get too concerned. I mean there is a chance it could be a good outcome.
Exactly!
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
Oh dear, somebody else who underestimates our position.
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
Oh dear, somebody else who underestimates our position.
Are you seriously suggesting the VSC minority shareholding will hold sway in these talks?
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
Oh dear, somebody else who underestimates our position.
Are you seriously suggesting the VSC minority shareholding will hold sway in these talks?
Think of it this way, if you were to take over an organisation would you want the blessing of your biggest stakholders?
Small shareholding maybe, but the biggest stakeholder group by far, that is important.
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
Oh dear, somebody else who underestimates our position.
Are you seriously suggesting the VSC minority shareholding will hold sway in these talks?
Think of it this way, if you were to take over an organisation would you want the blessing of your biggest stakholders?
Small shareholding maybe, but the biggest stakeholder group by far, that is important.
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Are you serious?
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My question is, if we get new investment and its substantial, how does that affect us with financial fair play? I will be honest in saying I don't know enough about it and how it actually works. Surely the players that are being branded about would put us outside these rules with out income stream?
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Unfortunately the VSC will have no influence on the outcome.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
Oh dear, somebody else who underestimates our position.
Are you seriously suggesting the VSC minority shareholding will hold sway in these talks?
Think of it this way, if you were to take over an organisation would you want the blessing of your biggest stakholders?
Small shareholding maybe, but the biggest stakeholder group by far, that is important.
I agree, it would help.
But are you saying that the blessing has already been asked for...and given?
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JR is not back till Monday so chill till then guys !!!!!!! :clapping: :laugh:
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JR was back on Thursday and was at the game today.