IMF gives Tories a glowing report

[mjdgreg]

I guess you forgot the suggestion that a plan B should be prepared if growth fails to materialise (which it won't because ordinary Dave and Inept Gideon are only interested looking after their mates in the city at the expense of the rest of us), and the less than "glowing" analysis of the unemployment in the UK. Talk about being selective.

Get a grip man. I agree you are being selective. Plan B is already being implemented. Plan A was to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Plan B is to eliminate it in 7. Rest assured that there will be further tweaks along the way.

What effect do you think it would have had on the markets if the Tories hadn't stated that they were going to stick with Plan A? If they had quickly ditched Plan A our interest rates would be much higher now and instead of a flat-lining economy we'd have one in serious decline.

They have skilfully implemented Plan B without people such as yourself even realising it and therefore maintained our current very low rates of interest.

As far as unemployment goes it is heading in the right direction. Losing all those unnecessary unproductive public sector jobs that Labour created to keep the dole queues down and replacing them with proper private sector jobs is going to take time.

I think you'll find it was Gordon Brown who was best mates with the 'city' so once again you are wide of the mark. Just because your mum and dad have always voted Labour doesn't mean that you have to too. Try using your brain for a change and try to weigh up both sides of an argument first before jumping to illogical conclusions.

Once again Dave and George deserve a lot of credit for the way they are going about sorting out Labour's disastrous economic legacy.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

My position is fairly simple.  Have the Tories so far done the right thing?  Probably 90 percent yes.  However, they still could stimulate growth a little bit better.  But that doesn't have to be done through public spending and cutting VAT, which just isn't sustainable, the maths don't add up.  Efficiencies must continue and much more should be done to become competitive with other countries.  Policies to encourage that should really be encouraged, including the cut to corporation tax which some might not like but will attract business from abroad and lead to a decrease in imports theoretically.

I'd like to see a higher tax on savings in foreign accounts as well to reduce that, as well as a stabilising import tax to encourage British manufacturing.

[bobjimwilly]

I wish I could use the Tories plans at work.

My boss: "I thought you were going to finish that project by today"
Me: "Well boss, that was my Plan A. However, I'm now switching to Plan B, which is to take another month."

 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I wish I could use the Tories plans at work.

My boss: "I thought you were going to finish that project by today"
Me: "Well boss, that was my Plan A. However, I'm now switching to Plan B, which is to take another month."

 

OK similar analogy.  Also go to your boss and say you might make more money if you put a whole load of loan cash towards it, but then you haven't got a cast iron guarantee that will happen.  I know what my bosses reaction would be - prove you can do it and I'll consider it, otherwise.....

[mjdgreg]

OK similar analogy.  Also go to your boss and say you might make more money if you put a whole load of loan cash towards it, but then you haven't got a cast iron guarantee that will happen.  I know what my bosses reaction would be - prove you can do it and I'll consider it, otherwise.....

That's blown bobjim out of the water,lol.

[bobjimwilly]

do you think it makes you big and clever by replying to every post that agrees with you mick?
It actually makes you look like a bit of a massive prat, but you're probably clever enough to work that one out yourself? 

by now we all know you're "conservative till I die" and you're really good at posting pro-tory articles. You're not humourous in the slightest, and you like to throw personal insults towards anyone who doesn't agree with you, like a child would.

If you really want people to think you're clever, try writing some clever posts. If you don't care what people think and don't want to hear opposing thoughts in an adult way, then maybe internet forums aren't really your thing?

Cue non-witty response looking for backup from posters that probably really don't give a shit what he says...

 

[mjdgreg]

do you think it makes you big and clever by replying to every post that agrees with you mjdgreg?
It actually makes you look like a bit of a massive prat, but you're probably clever enough to work that one out yourself? 

by now we all know you're "conservative till I die" and you're really good at posting pro-tory articles. You're not humourous in the slightest, and you like to throw personal insults towards anyone who doesn't agree with you, like a child would.

If you really want people to think you're clever, try writing some clever posts. If you don't care what people think and don't want to hear opposing thoughts in an adult way, then maybe internet forums aren't really your thing?

Cue non-witty response looking for backup from posters that probably really don't give a shit what he says...

Bit touchy aren't we? Look if you can't stand having your arguments torn to shreds then maybe you shouldn't get involved. Just leave it at 'I vote Labour cos my mum and dad did and that's good enough for me.' I dare n't evaluate the issues in a logical manner because I would be selling out my Labour heritage and all my mates would think I was a Tory tosser.'

Leave it to the likes of me to stand up for what is right regardless of class being an issue.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick.

I'm a convert. You're right and you always have been.

No matter that The Times reported Lagarde's comments as a cry out for a change of course and a Plan B.

No matter that the Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman said,

In the nature of things, the IMF can’t go to a country not in need of a financing program and say bluntly, “Ur doing it wrong”. Nor can it easily climb down from its original endorsement of the Cameron-Osborne austerity program. But the latest consultation comes about as close as the Fund can to saying that a huge error is underway, in particular mentioning “hysteresis”, the risk that the economy’s austerity-induced weakness will inflict long-run damage.

No matter that the IMF's own chief economist Oliver Blanchard said in January,

if growth is really dismal then you may decide that you're going to go a bit more slowly about the discretionary part of the budget.

(Which is code for "If your policies are f**king up growth, change your policies and cut the deficit less quickly.)

No matter that the economy has utterly flat-lined for the last two years, WAY before the EuroZone second slow-down that Osborne blames our ills on started.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18187354
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10613201

No matter that a Tory MP quoted in The Times yesterday said,

We've got to stop blaming this on the Euro crisis and start accepting that its an economic mess up of our own making.

All of that is of no concern. A professional gambler and property speculator from Donny has spoken and he must be correct. I will now change my beliefs accordingly.

[jonrover]

Get a grip man. I agree you are being selective. Plan B is already being implemented. Plan A was to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Plan B is to eliminate it in 7. Rest assured that there will be further tweaks along the way.

That's plan B is it? Sounds like an admission of failure. What will plan C be? Deficit reduction in 10 years, with further destruction of the civilised society we live in? Even fewer hospital beds, fewer beat bobbies and class sizes of 50 in schools?

What effect do you think it would have had on the markets if the Tories hadn't stated that they were going to stick with Plan A? If they had quickly ditched Plan A our interest rates would be much higher now and instead of a flat-lining economy we'd have one in serious decline.

Free market economics have failed...each bust in the boom and bust cycle is bigger than the last one,  its time for another plan, one where people come first instead of the 1% But blue blinkered cretins like you would have no clue about that would you?

They have skilfully implemented Plan B without people such as yourself even realising it and therefore maintained our current very low rates of interest.

People such as myself...really, care to elaborate? At least I've been straight up with my assessment of you.

As far as unemployment goes it is heading in the right direction. Losing all those unnecessary unproductive public sector jobs that Labour created to keep the dole queues down and replacing them with proper private sector jobs is going to take time.

Oh, you mean like the old folks wardens, and librarians in Donny, as well as thousands of front line NHS and police? I've met some naive people before but you take the biscuit...

I think you'll find it was Gordon Brown who was best mates with the 'city' so once again you are wide of the mark. Just because your mum and dad have always voted Labour doesn't mean that you have to too. Try using your brain for a change and try to weigh up both sides of an argument first before jumping to illogical conclusions.

Gordon Brown was guilty of not regulating the banks. In fact, he endorsed tighter regulation in a speech at Harvard back  in 1998, but got no support from the rest of the world,, so was powerless to implement it. And he was equally as guilty for not nationalising the banks or part of banks that were bailed out, then we might be in a position where they are forced to lend to people and business to inject growth into the economy. All this QE...sorry credit easing as Gideon likes to call it now (because QE was "leap in the dark and necessary only because of the ‘complete failure’ of Labour’s other measures to tackle the recession.") is just refinancing the institutions that screwed us in the first place.

Oh, and for the record, I voted Trade Union and Socialist Coalition in North Doncaster in 2010. As for my parents, I don't know nor do I care who they vote for. All know is once the Tories are finished with their failing experiment, they will be unelectable for a generation, as Sir Mervyn King has predicted. Sounds good to me!

Once again Dave and George deserve a lot of credit for the way they are going about sorting out Labour's disastrous economic legacy.

You really don't get it do you? It is a crisis made of finance institutions being greedy. Brown had no choice but to bail out the banks. The problem is those who caused the crisis are still dragging home their bonuses and funding the Tory party with that same filthy tarnished money, so their interests are protected.

I recently read a book, "Chavs" by Owen Jones. The real killer for people like you in the book is a passage which quotes an unnamed Tory cabinet minister saying the Tory position in British politics has always been to "give just enough in the manifesto to just enough people to get into government". Then looking after their own ideological interests come what may. The cabinet of millionaires should tell you all you need to know.

One day the likes of you and a handful of others on here will wake up to that fact and realise what fools you've  been.

[mjdgreg]

mjdgreg.

I'm a convert. You're right and you always have been.

No matter that The Times reported Lagarde's comments as a cry out for a change of course and a Plan B.

At last I'm finally starting to get through to you and you are seeing the errors of your ways. You should know by now I only deal in facts and will mercilessly point out the many fallacies in your arguments. I give you credit for coming back for more. You are a brave soul indeed.

[mjdgreg]

No matter that The Times reported Lagarde's comments as a cry out for a change of course and a Plan B.

No matter that the Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman said,
Quote
In the nature of things, the IMF can’t go to a country not in need of a financing program and say bluntly, “Ur doing it wrong”. Nor can it easily climb down from its original endorsement of the Cameron-Osborne austerity program. But the latest consultation comes about as close as the Fund can to saying that a huge error is underway, in particular mentioning “hysteresis”, the risk that the economy’s austerity-induced weakness will inflict long-run damage.

No matter that the IMF's own chief economist Oliver Blanchard said in January,
Quote
if growth is really dismal then you may decide that you're going to go a bit more slowly about the discretionary part of the budget.
(Which is code for "If your policies are f***ing up growth, change your policies and cut the deficit less quickly.)

Right it's time to point out the blindingly obvious that you somehow appear to have missed (even though I've mentioned it in a previous post on this thread).

Plan B is currently being implemented. The deficit is now being cut back in 7 years not 5 as in Plan A.

I wish people would use their brains at least some of the time. Just because the government don't admit there is a Plan B it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that there is and it is being implemented now.

All this talk of Plan A and Plan B is just political language for the unintelligent masses that make up the bulk of the electorate. The basic strategy was always going to be changed as time went on and events unfolded. That is exactly what is happening.

[mjdgreg]

No matter that the economy has utterly flat-lined for the last two years, WAY before the EuroZone second slow-down that Osborne blames our ills on started.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18187354
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10613201

No matter that a Tory MP quoted in The Times yesterday said,
Quote
We've got to stop blaming this on the Euro crisis and start accepting that its an economic mess up of our own making.

The economy flat-lining for the last 2 years is a great outcome given the cataclysmic situation Labour left behind. George should be shouting from the roof-tops about how well we've done compared to how disastrous things would have been if Labour hadn't been kicked out. Aren't you aware of how bad things are in Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal etc?

That Tory MP is right. The Euro crisis is only an exacerbating the situation. We do need to accept that it's an economic mess of Labour's making.

We should be extremely grateful that those clowns haven't still got their hands in the till. We need to harden up and stop living beyond our means. I'm prepared to accept a big cut in my standard of living so future generations don't have to pick up the bill. I suggest you moaning minnies do the same and get on with it.

[mjdgreg]

That's plan B is it?

Sounds like an admission of failure. What will plan C be? Deficit reduction in 10 years, with further destruction of the civilised society we live in? Even fewer hospital beds, fewer beat bobbies and class sizes of 50 in schools?

Look, if you can't work out what Plan B was without me spelling it out for you then you are getting involved in a debate that is way over your head. If we want a civilised society then we need to grow the private sector so it can support a public sector. Labour's solution to shrink the private sector and grow the public sector on borrowed money is what's got us into this mess in the first place.

In your simplistic world you think we can have everything we want without paying for it. Your solution is no doubt to keep on borrowing money and keep on increasing the debt burden for future generations. A very selfish attitude if you don't mind me saying.

[mjdgreg]

Free market economics have failed...each bust in the boom and bust cycle is bigger than the last one,  its time for another plan, one where people come first instead of the 1% But blue blinkered cretins like you would have no clue about that would you?

It must be lovely living in fantasy land like you.

[mjdgreg]

People such as myself...really, care to elaborate? At least I've been straight up with my assessment of you.

No need for me to elaborate. You've already painted a very detailed picture of yourself. If I were you I'd come up with another username so you can start afresh.

[mjdgreg]

Gordon Brown was guilty of not regulating the banks. In fact, he endorsed tighter regulation in a speech at Harvard back  in 1998, but got no support from the rest of the world,, so was powerless to implement it. And he was equally as guilty for not nationalising the banks or part of banks that were bailed out, then we might be in a position where they are forced to lend to people and business to inject growth into the economy. All this QE...sorry credit easing as Gideon likes to call it now (because QE was "leap in the dark and necessary only because of the ‘complete failure’ of Labour’s other measures to tackle the recession.") is just refinancing the institutions that screwed us in the first place.

Gordon Brown could have still regulated our banks no matter what the rest of the world wanted to do. He was not powerless. The dopey sod thought we'd have a mild recession that would only last for 6 months. What a clown.

He should have just let the bad banks go bust then we could have got out of this mess a lot quicker. Agree that QE is a waste of time. All it does is devalue the currency and create inflation.

[mjdgreg]

Oh, you mean like the old folks wardens, and librarians in Donny, as well as thousands of front line NHS and police? I've met some naive people before but you take the biscuit...

Thanks to Labour we can no longer afford all these things. What do you suggest should happen? Don't bother answering cos I know what you will say: 'Let's borrow some more money to keep on paying for things we can't afford'. What a brilliant solution. You really are naive.

[mjdgreg]

You really don't get it do you? It is a crisis made of finance institutions being greedy. Brown had no choice but to bail out the banks. The problem is those who caused the crisis are still dragging home their bonuses and funding the Tory party with that same filthy tarnished money, so their interests are protected.

You haven't got a clue what you're on about. Gordon Brown let the banks do as they wanted. They knew they could take massive risks and the government would pick up the bill if it all went horribly wrong. It's like me going to the bookies and backing a load of outsiders hoping one of them would win and I'd make a lot of money, safe in the knowledge that my dad would give me back my money if I lost.

If the banks had known they would not have been bailed out do you seriously think they would have taken the risks they did? That tarnished money you're on about by the way is probably paying you your benefits and keeping police and nurses in jobs.

[Filo]

It's like me going to the bookies and backing a load of outsiders hoping one of them would win and I'd make a lot of money, safe in the knowledge that my dad would give me back my money if I lost.

If your dad`s got any sense, he would n`t let you any where near any money!

[jonrover]

That's plan B is it?

Sounds like an admission of failure. What will plan C be? Deficit reduction in 10 years, with further destruction of the civilised society we live in? Even fewer hospital beds, fewer beat bobbies and class sizes of 50 in schools?

Look, if you can't work out what Plan B was without me spelling it out for you then you are getting involved in a debate that is way over your head. If we want a civilised society then we need to grow the private sector so it can support a public sector. Labour's solution to shrink the private sector and grow the public sector on borrowed money is what's got us into this mess in the first place.

In your simplistic world you think we can have everything we want without paying for it. Your solution is no doubt to keep on borrowing money and keep on increasing the debt burden for future generations. A very selfish attitude if you don't mind me saying.

Erm...generally speaking, I'd say plan B should be something NEW, not the same, just over a bit longer? We need growth...and the Tories have no plan. But there is an ideological reason for this...UNEMPLOYMENT. Unemployment creates more supply in the labour market which drives down wages...simple supply and demand economics. Less  wages, more profit. Looking after their own. And now they want to make it easier to SACK you...more unemployment? Economic policy out of beano.

And no, I wouldn't have everything without having to pay for it. The answer is collect the 150 billion either evaded or avoided every f**king year by the rich or corperations. That would pay for a decent civilised society with good state education , NHS free at the point of service, a police service who can do their job properly ect. And that is not some fantasy world I'm living in...its called decency and morality. Something the trust fund child Gideon and 3rd generation son of stockbrokers Ordinary Dave would know f**k all about.

[mjdgreg]

Erm...generally speaking, I'd say plan B should be something NEW, not the same, just over a bit longer? We need growth...and the Tories have no plan. But there is an ideological reason for this...UNEMPLOYMENT. Unemployment creates more supply in the labour market which drives down wages...simple supply and demand economics. Less  wages, more profit. Looking after their own. And now they want to make it easier to SACK you...more unemployment? Economic policy out of beano.

And no, I wouldn't have everything without having to pay for it. The answer is collect the 150 billion either evaded or avoided every f***ing year by the rich or corperations. That would pay for a decent civilised society with good state education , NHS free at the point of service, a police service who can do their job properly ect. And that is not some fantasy world I'm living in...its called decency and morality. Something the trust fund child Gideon and 3rd generation son of stockbrokers Ordinary Dave would know f*** all about.

You lefties bang on about the cuts being too much too fast and when the Tories drag them out over an extra 2 years in Plan B you still moan. There's no pleasing a leftie.

Yes it would be nice to have some growth, but just be happy we are flat-lining for now. It's going to take at least a decade to get over Labour's incompetence. Flat-lining for a decade will do me. It'll give us time to start to live within our means instead of mortgaging the future for the next generation. Just be happy we aren't Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal etc. That's how we'd have ended up under Labour.

Unemployment started rising under Labour. The Tories have already created 600,000 proper jobs and are getting on with getting rid of those unproductive public sector jobs that Gordon was so fond of creating on borrowed money.

It should be easier to sack people. If you're good at your job your employer will want to keep you. If you're crap at your job you should be sacked. There is still far too much trade union power. They need to be smashed.

You are living in fantasy land if you think your economic solution would work. If it was that simple why didn't Labour do it? I'd rather corporations kept the money to re-invest in their companies rather than giving it to politicians to waste.

[Mr1Croft]

That's plan B is it?

Sounds like an admission of failure. What will plan C be? Deficit reduction in 10 years, with further destruction of the civilised society we live in? Even fewer hospital beds, fewer beat bobbies and class sizes of 50 in schools?

Look, if you can't work out what Plan B was without me spelling it out for you then you are getting involved in a debate that is way over your head. If we want a civilised society then we need to grow the private sector so it can support a public sector. Labour's solution to shrink the private sector and grow the public sector on borrowed money is what's got us into this mess in the first place.

In your simplistic world you think we can have everything we want without paying for it. Your solution is no doubt to keep on borrowing money and keep on increasing the debt burden for future generations. A very selfish attitude if you don't mind me saying.

Erm...generally speaking, I'd say plan B should be something NEW, not the same, just over a bit longer? We need growth...and the Tories have no plan. But there is an ideological reason for this...UNEMPLOYMENT. Unemployment creates more supply in the labour market which drives down wages...simple supply and demand economics. Less  wages, more profit. Looking after their own. And now they want to make it easier to SACK you...more unemployment? Economic policy out of beano.

And no, I wouldn't have everything without having to pay for it. The answer is collect the 150 billion either evaded or avoided every f**king year by the rich or corperations. That would pay for a decent civilised society with good state education , NHS free at the point of service, a police service who can do their job properly ect. And that is not some fantasy world I'm living in...its called decency and morality. Something the trust fund child Gideon and 3rd generation son of stockbrokers Ordinary Dave would know f**k all about.

See the problem is that more money is going out than what is coming in. In fact exactly the same as the Rovers, John Ryan and the Board has been plugging the shortfall but for the Country the shortfall has been filled with borrowed money. The Tories are doing what is happening at the Rovers things are being cut, Labours legacy is to do a Pourtsmouth, cut down untill the crisis is over and then spend spend again. We may be back in Recession but is life really any worse than it was a month back? Under Labour it would have gone down the same path.
 
But lets look at your fiscal policy for a second, so the £150 Billion is owed for avoided tax, all that does is plug the Defecit, still no money to lend, what happens next year when there isn't a £150B in avoided/evaded debt?
The bottom line is there is no real alternative to capitalism, we could follow the Rhineland model of Germany but no Politician would dare stand before the elections shouting "We are following in Germanies footstep, we will be the next Germany etc because that would be political suicide. Or we could turn to China or the Marxists.

[bobjimwilly]

I think life is a lot harder than a few months ago for thousands upon thousands who are still out of work. It won't necessarily be harder for everyone, especially those in jobs, but for those who lost jobs at the beginning of the recession it will continue to get harder.

I think it's still quite incredible that people are blaming labour for a world recession that was primarily caused by the collapse of the u.s. housing market.

I also think it's a disgrace that the likes of mick believe all the tory hype that all these public sector jobs that are going are all useless and not needed. Do they forget the public sector jobs include the likes of policemen, nurses, doctors, teachers etc? Are these jobs not needed in society any more? 

[mjdgreg]

I also think it's a disgrace that the likes of mjdgreg believe all the tory hype that all these public sector jobs that are going are all useless and not needed. Do they forget the public sector jobs include the likes of policemen, nurses, doctors, teachers etc? Are these jobs not needed in society any more?

Talk about exaggerating. No-one is saying all these public sector jobs are all useless and not needed. We obviously need some public sector jobs. What you have to realise is that it is the private sector that creates the wealth that politicians then spend on the public sector.

Gordon Brown's philosophy was to hide true unemployment by borrowing money to create so many public sector jobs that the public sector became bigger than the private sector. No economy can survive that kind of madness. All that's happening now is that the public sector is being cut back to a sustainable level and the private sector is being encouraged to grow. There is still a long way to go to achieve this.

We've been living beyond our means and continue to do so. We're just going to have to harden up and make do with a worse public sector than we're used to because the money has run out. In fantasy land it would be great if we could just create as many public sector jobs as we wanted to give everyone a job. Gordon Brown has already tried this and failed abysmally.

Unfortunately we have to live in the real world and cut our cloth accordingly. That's the reality that all you lefties out there don't want to face. You just want to keep on borrowing more money without a thought as to how it is going to have to be paid back. It's criminal that lefties are quite happy for their own children and their children's children to be given the bill so that we don't have to harden up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye Mick. I told you I agree with your deeply pondered-upon prognostications.

The widely-respected economist Robert Zemeckis must have been wrong on PM on Radio 4 tonight when he said that he fears that UK is sliding into the Paradox of Thrift.

See Mick, that is when businesses are terrified that the economy won't pick up. So they hoard their profits instead of re-investing them. And so, business slows. And so the recession comes. And so they hoard even more. And do the economy struggles to get out of recession.

What confused me Mick, is that the widely-respected economist Zemeckis was saying that this is the massive threat when Govts rein in their spending before the private sector has recovered. He said that this was what happened to Japan to disastrous effect in their Lost Decade. He said that the sign that this catastrophe was upon us was when companies' retained profits went through the roof. And that, currently, UK companies are sitting on £700bn of retained profits which they are terrified to re-invest, as opposed to £3-350bn in normal times. He said that there was an urgent need for Govt action to get the economy moving and encourage companies to invest this money.

But, see, I'm confused. Because the IMF are asking for fiscal loosening. Paul Krugman is asking for fiscal loosening. Robert Zemeckis is asking for fiscal loosening. But my new guru, the bedsit gambler Mad Mick says that this would be a disaster. Help me out Mick. Tell me why you are correct and all these world-renown economic experts are wrong.

[jonrover]

You lefties bang on about the cuts being too much too fast and when the Tories drag them out over an extra 2 years in Plan B you still moan. There's no pleasing a leftie.

Sweeping generalisations again...I'm afraid this "leftie" is firmly in the no cuts at all camp. History tells you how unnecessary they are and are based purely on ideology.

Back in 1945, you might remember the end of a significant event in British history...an event that left us with debt of 250% of GDP. Without being bothered to look at the exact current figure today I'd guess it is around 80%, indecently higher than when Ordinary Dave and Inept Osborne took over. Prior to the banking crisis the debt to GDP was around 35% again without bothering to check. So, as any fool can see...apart from people like yourself...out debt is not that significant. Now consider the fact the welfare state was created, millions of council houses built, state education for all, the NHS, all created under a massive public debt. The cuts are not necessary. Get people in work fixing our f**ked road network, rebuild the million council houses Thatcher sold off, stop supporting illegal, pointless wars, invest in sustainable green energy, renationalise the railways (which cost the taxpayer 12 times...not 12%, TWELVE TIMES more in subsidies now in privatisation than when they were nationalised) and I could continue.

The real problem in this country and across the developed world is one of widening inequality, the rich not paying their fair share of tax, and a broken economic system. How can it be right that according to the Sunday Times rich list 2012 the richest in society are now as rich or richer than the financial crash in 2008 whilst you...yes YOU and I and everyone reading this forum are having to pick up the pieces through slashed public services? Its a f**king outrage.

I find it sickening you think unions should be smashed. Unions are leading the alternative argument and are possibly the only ones who will stand between the workers in this country and the shocking Beecroft Report. My union Unite are setting up community membership at 50p a week to try and replace things like the CAB and to give people some hope when there is none. In the first community branch meeting in Sheffield a young mother collapsed through hunger because she had to chose between feeding her kids and herself. This is what these bolly swigging toffs are doing to our communities. And apparently this is by no means an isolated case...1 in 5 mothers are having to do without meals to feed their kids. My local primary school puts on a breakfast club and lose money on it because they know certain kids would have to go without breakfast if they either pulled it or increased the price from 30p a day.

Like I said...in time the most hated pair in politics. But I guess to wipe out the welfare state for their class it will be a price worth paying. Let them rot in hell with Thatcher.

[Filo]

Help me out Mick. Tell me why you are correct and all these world-renown economic experts are wrong.

Just hang on while he checks google and finds something to copy and paste!

[mjdgreg]

Sweeping generalisations again...I'm afraid this "leftie" is firmly in the no cuts at all camp. History tells you how unnecessary they are and are based purely on ideology.

No cuts at all!!! You are a complete joker. The views you espouse are totally ludicrous. Are you aware that even now we are borrowing £2 per day for every man woman and child in this country just to pay the interest on the debt previously accrued by Labour? Obviously not.

Debt has caused our problems and accruing more debt is not the solution. It will only make things worse and will have to be paid by future generations. I'd be grateful if you could consider them for one second. Why should they pay for our current profligacy?

[mjdgreg]

Aye mjdgreg. I told you I agree with your deeply pondered-upon prognostications.

The widely-respected economist Robert Zemeckis must have been wrong on PM on Radio 4 tonight when he said that he fears that UK is sliding into the Paradox of Thrift.

See mjdgreg, that is when businesses are terrified that the economy won't pick up. So they hoard their profits instead of re-investing them. And so, business slows. And so the recession comes. And so they hoard even more. And do the economy struggles to get out of recession.

What confused me mjdgreg, is that the widely-respected economist Zemeckis was saying that this is the massive threat when Govts rein in their spending before the private sector has recovered. He said that this was what happened to Japan to disastrous effect in their Lost Decade. He said that the sign that this catastrophe was upon us was when companies' retained profits went through the roof. And that, currently, UK companies are sitting on £700bn of retained profits which they are terrified to re-invest, as opposed to £3-350bn in normal times. He said that there was an urgent need for Govt action to get the economy moving and encourage companies to invest this money.

But, see, I'm confused. Because the IMF are asking for fiscal loosening. Paul Krugman is asking for fiscal loosening. Robert Zemeckis is asking for fiscal loosening. But my new guru, the professional gambler mjdgreg says that this would be a disaster. Help me out mjdgreg. Tell me why you are correct and all these world-renown economic experts are wrong.

You're mistaking me for someone that agrees with everything the Tories are doing. I don't. All I know is that they are a far better proposition than Labour.

You're problem is that you think you can solve a debt crisis by getting further into debt. This is where your credibility is seriously lacking along with all your leftie mates.

There is a solution which will eventually have to be implemented. I've written to Dave and George with my advice and hope to see changes in the near future. The sooner it happens the better.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You're problem is that you think you can solve a debt crisis by getting further into debt. This is where your credibility is seriously lacking along with all your leftie mates.

Mick. You must be right that it's impossible to get out of a debt crisis by borrowing more. That is very clear, logical and obviously correct.

There's just one problem that I need some help on. See, at the end of WWII, our Public Debt to GDP was almost 250%. Cripplingly high. By 1975, it was less than 40%. Perfectly manageable. Surely, we must have done that by massively reducing public spending and running budget surpluses?

But, Mick, I'm really, really struggling here. Because when you look at the numbers, in fact we only ran budget surpluses for 4 years out of those 30 years. This is getting scary. Because it appears that the Government borrowed more in 26 out of 30 years, and yet our debt burden came down?

And, do you know what Mick? The same thing happened in just about every other major Western country.

That can't be right Mick, can it? Government borrowing more but debt as a proportion of income going down?

Can you help me out and explain what REALLY happened? My best guess is that there was a pinko plot to fiddle the numbers.