Paris

[Rich_The_Conisbrough_Rover]

Rest in peace to all the victims, ourselves and countries surrounding need to act fast and put all this terrorism at rest. New York is on red alert now along with London.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

100 killed at concert hall alone. Heartbreaking.

Seen a report on Twitter Putin is ready to work with US to tackle Isis.

It really is terrible. It won't and shouldn't stop people doing what they love though.  I'll still be going to big gigs and events, we can't let them win.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Why is it flawed?

Reducing their ability to indiscriminately kill large amounts of people by reducing the weaponry they have available is flawed?

One look at American gun violence statistics vs. every other civilised country in the world will tell you it isn't.

Somebody's obviously never watched Bowling For Columbine..!

[Glyn_Wigley]

There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.

I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.

These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.

It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?

Oh, not this b*llocks again!!

Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?

Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?

No? The bas**rds, their religion obviously approves.

See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?

[mushRTID]

100 killed at concert hall alone. Heartbreaking.

Seen a report on Twitter Putin is ready to work with US to tackle Isis.

It really is terrible. It won't and shouldn't stop people doing what they love though.  I'll still be going to big gigs and events, we can't let them win.

We heard the news last night driving home from a gig.

The sad fact is it really could be any one of us. I'm convinced it's the UK's turn very soon for these animals to attack.

[drfchound]

With all the immigrants coming into Europe willy nilly there will be more of the nutters amongst us then we could possibly imagine.
As has been said before, it is always going to be difficult to control who comes and goes.
Even if the border controls were better there will always be a way of smuggling people into our country.

[Sprotyrover]

France is awash with Kalashnikovs compared to England,unfortunately we have a now large Muslim minority with a small number of them radicalised, get ready for some concerted effort to do harm to folks on the streets of our cities and towns.

[Filo]

The West is always reactive in situations like this instead of being pro active, we can all start by banning the wearing of the burkha in public, I know the cowards in Paris were probably not wearing burkha's but the point I'm trying to raise is those people may well have been known to the security services, whats the easyest way for them to move around a crowded City undetected? A Burkha with only a letterbox to look through! If those that wear the burkha don't agree then that Country is probably not the place to be to practice their medievil rules!

[drfchound]

We let them go through customs at the airports without looking at their faces too.
Totally wrong.
Men dressed as women could easily get through.

[Dare to dream!]

Gatwick evacuated

[Filo]

Putin has spoken

"I would like to express my deepest condolences to you personally and all the people of France in connection with the death of a large number of civilians as a result of an unprecedented series of terrorist attacks in Paris," Mr Putin wrote.

"This tragedy became another evidence of barbaric nature of terrorism which poses a challenge to human civilization. It is obvious that effective fight against this evil requires a real combined effort of the entire international community.

"I would like to confirm that the Russian side is ready for the closest possible cooperation with French partners in the investigation of this crime committed in Paris. I expect that its paymasters and perpetrators will be punished."

Time for Obama and Putin to lead the world in wiping these nutters out, forget the East v West posturing and work together!

[BobG]

In 1967 the Israelis fought off an attack by the combined forces of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. They had the sympathy of pretty well the entire world at the time. Within a few short years they had lost that sympathy, except in the USA, as a result of their treatment of the Arabs over whom they now had control. In the 48 years since 1967 the Israelis have fought wars, have kidnapped leaders, have shot indiscriminately into crowds, have refused to negotiate, have built walls, have murdered western journalists, have smashed tunnels, have launched naval raids, have assassinated tneir own politicians whenever they looked like they wanted to reach an accomodation with the Arabs, have suffered several intifadas - and have become international pariahs.

Yet the Israelis still talk about taking 'stronger measures'. They still dream up ever more bizarre and self defeating ideas with which to 'beat' the Arabs.

Yesterday I heard David Cameron, speaking on the box about the murder of Jihadi John. Within the space of 30 seconds he said:

"We have struck at the heart of IS", and, "He was their top executioner"

Given the fatuous stupidity of a man who could say those two things almost in the same breath with a straight face, is he really expecting us to believe both at the same time? So what are the odds do you think that we, and the rest of the western world, are about to follow the pattern adopted by the Israelis?

I remind you of two other pertinent points: how long did the Irish 'problem' go on for? How was peace eventually achieved? And, how has South Africa tried to overcome the bitterness, the violence and the viciousness created by apartheid?

These sodding politicians (and I am not aiming this at the Tory party. UK politicians of all parties generally seem to be as myopic as each other) must believe we are all plain stupid. Why else would they spout unthinking crap like this? The result of all this platitudinous rubbish is clearly stated by Neil Grainger:

"It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us. How long will we continue to tolerate this?"

That may, or may not, be true. But it is an example of the one thing that we should all fear above everything else - the creation of a climate of xenophobia. That is simply another step down the Israeli road. How is falling out with a large minority of our population going to do anything except cause more bitterness, more violence, more intolerance? How is it going to solve even one of our problems? What are you going to do with the millions of these 'foreigners'? Put 'em in camps? Export them to somewhere - but where? Shoot them? And just who is actually a 'foreigner' anyway? What do you do with children born in this country? What do you do with Australians? Columbians? Jordanians? Omanians? (And I picked Jordan and Oman specifically as they are seriously pro west allies of the UK. Oh. And they happen to be Arabs too.  They encapsulate the issue beautifully)

Where are our leaders? Men of vision? I can't, off hand, think of a single lasting peace that has been created without there being long, detailed and meaningful conversation with the other side. And don't say the Allies and Germany in 1945. 1945 was a cessation of war. It was not the creation of peace. Peace came through the establishment of the Marshall Plan and everything about communication and forgiveness that that implied. Peace came to Ireland because Tony Blair had the guts to sit down with the IRA to thrash things out. He had the brains too to look forwards, not backwards. To let go of the past. The previous 40 odd years, when no one else had any guts, or realism, saw a never ending cycle of bombings, shootings, massacres by the army, murders by all sides, checkpoints, spying, barbed wire and restrictions on movement. But not peace...  Peace needs communication. It does not, ever, happen without it. Violent solutions don't last. The eastern bloc tried that in Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1967. There were some very sticky endings for some of the leaders of that lot in the end. Think of Clemenceau in 1919 too and his famous line about squeezing the Germans like an orange until the pips squeaked. The result? The creation of the framework for a cataclysm 21 years later. Without decent, meaningful communication, without understanding and a spirit of tolerance, peace has never lasted. Even if we nuke the middle east our problems won't be solved.

Where is the latter day equivalent of the Marshall Plan for the middle east? When is somebody going to sit down and talk to these people? Don't forget who it was that created them too. We already know we can't beat them militarily. We already know we can't prevent them causing mayhem on our streets, murdering hundreds and hundreds of people. Remember Madrid? that was what?? 7 years ago? So have we been pissing about since then? Bombay? London? New York? Nairobi? Charlie Ebdo? Remember France has been on high alert ever since Charlie.... yet last night still happened.

Claiming to be fighting a war to win in these circumstances is just pathetic. It's unwinnable. It's what the Yanks claimed they were doing in Vietnam. This is that sort of war. A guerilla war. The Russians lost, heavily, in their Afghanistan guerilla war a few years back too. We didn't win there either depsite 10 years or more, billions and billions of quid, massive American support and all the hyperbolic claims from our politicians you could ever wish for. We should be ashamed of our politicians. They are supposed to lead. They should be talking honestly about causes, consequences and solutions. They have spent 10 years and more now talking hyperbole and garbage instead. The whole world needs leadership so badly now that it's scary. And we should be ashamed of ourselves for listening to this rubbish and letting them speak it.

'Enemies amongst us'. Christ Almighty. It's Salem in the 1690's all over again. I'm going to call it 'Right think'.

This looks like the start of 'Festung Europa' to me.

BobG

[Donny Dub]

Bob G, you make some valid points but I object to your illogical references to Israel.  Israel is the only democracy in the ME.  Their neighbour are avowed to their complete annihilation.  Their people are constantly and daily subjected to exactly this very type of terrorism and this has been the case for years.  There have not been similar multiple casualties as in Paris because their security is more sophisticated and proactive, more citizens and security personnel are properly armed and these atrocities are nipped in the bud.  The population of Israel are constantly terrorised with daily stabbings, car rammings not to forget the tunnelling and rocket and mortar attacks by their neighbours.  Neighbours who will not accept any peace deal that does not include the elimination of the State of Israel.
This cancer is being spread now through the whole civilised world by radicals spreading their hatred of humanity via the internet.
All human life is sacred but israel's experience may show the rest of us what to expect in the future.
Peace brother!

[BobG]

And just why, do you think, the neighbours of the Israelis want to annihilate them?

And, just for fun, who caused all this in the first place anyway? I'll tell you: it was Arthur Balfour. Yep. Him. British politican who couldn't keep his trap shut and who couldn't see consequences if they smacked him in the eye.

Remind me just what happened to the only Israeli national politican who ever tried to secure peace with his Arab neighbours. I don't think the Old Testament 'eye for an eye' approach has got much of a track record has it - despite it being used more often than mnot for at least a thousand years. It's consequences don't bear thinking about do they?

I keep on telling people, Henry Ford was plain wrong. If you don't know your history, you're doomed to making the same mistakes again and again and again. That's something the Israelis really could do with spotting.....

BobG

PS Actually, I've got a mate, who, a good few years back now, told me at a time of personal crisis that "If something isn't working, doing more of the same won't solve the problem". Those 13 words are so profound, so full of insight, so full of meaning and good advice that they should be engraved on the heart of every politician on the planet. Especially Israeli ones!

[The Red Baron]

Bob

I agree that simply training more firepower on IS won't work. And in many ways they are a creation of western meddling in the middle east, especially in Iraq and Syria.

However, the situation with IS is subtly different from those you describe in Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. Those invasions ultimately failed because they had little or no support from the locals. In parts of Syria or Iraq controlled by IS, the locals hate and fear them in equal measure. IS are the ones conducting brutal repression. Also, unlike the IRA, they have no desire to talk to anyone or moderate their demands.

What is needed is a coalition to take on and defeat Is. That means involving the Russians and, crucially, other Arab states. That is what our leaders should be proposing, and it will involve putting troops on the ground.

But I agree with your other substantive point. Treating Muslims as some kind of "enemy within" plays into the hands of IS and other extremists.

[BobG]

But 'defeating significant 'terrorist' groups' doesn't happen often John! I agree about the lack of support from the locals, but are you honestly trying to tell me that the Iraqis, the Syrians would support yet another western occupation force? Because that's what will be needed if the west decides it really does want to go after ISIS. It would end up exactly the same as Vietnam, Afghanistan and all the rest.

As for the IRA - they did come to the table. Took a long time, but the UK government was equally reluctant you know. When they both did, guess what? Peace suddenly broke out.

And, lastly, and very sadly, I simply don't believe we can ever 'defeat' terrorism - no matter how big the coalition you throw against it. That was the point about Vietnam. A big coalition. A terrifyingly powerful force assembled. So what did the Vietcong do? Disappear. Hide in the bushes and the villages. Wait for the guns to move away. Then come out of hiding and start all over again. Pick off the guards. Trip wires to mines. Booby traps. Terrorise the locals. Poison the wells. In a guerilla war you can't stop any of that John - no matter how big and how massively expensive the force you put together.

And that was my point about the succession of attacks over a fair number of years now. The whole world is on high alert - yet last night still happened even so. We can't stop them. We can only stop them some of the time. So, rather than do more of something that is not  and will never work, why not do something different? Because if we don't, we are going to end up creating a world that is so massively different that none of us can even begin to imagine what it will be like. All we can say is that it will be chock full of Right Think...

One last example of avoiding Right Think: why has the 40 year war against the terrorist Sendero Luminoso recently stopped in Peru? Why did it last so long?

Why can't people see the patterns?

BobG

[ravenrover]

I wonder if any of the murderers last night had taken advantage of our humanitarian efforts for the refugees flooding Europe without any meaningful Border Controls. Were they all residents in France for sometime or hidden as part of this flood?
Perhaps the Governments refusal to take refugees in vast numbers is helping to protect us, however I do appreciate we already have "the enemy within" that have been radicalised over a number of years and are willing to sacrifice their lives for religion. It's nothing new though is it, it's been going for centuries in the name of one god or another.

[Sprotyrover]

I'm sorry Bob but your  stance on this is incorrect,the Islamic Caliphate is a few thousand nutters who ave managed to manipulate their sittuation by playing on the religious splits in Northern Iraq and Syria.
The majority of their fighters would kack their pants at the first sight of some serious Infantry and off would come the beards and on would go the Burquas.
The State of Israel came into existence after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire it would have happened no matter what western power controlled Palestine.
Once the Ottomans were out Jewish migration into Palestine started in earnest.
The region is a complete mess. I do see a Kurdish state coming out of the mess and that will have repercussions across Turkey,Syria,Iraq and Iran.

[RedJ]

You can't bomb an ideology.

[ravenrover]

Well well well!
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking  · 9 mins9 minutes ago 
One of the bombers in #ParisAttacks passed through island of Leros as migrant in October, Greek minister says http://bbc.in/1O8KHxx

[Filo]

Well well well!
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking  · 9 mins9 minutes ago 
One of the bombers in #ParisAttacks passed through island of Leros as migrant in October, Greek minister says http://bbc.in/1O8KHxx

It's what many have been predicting

[ravenrover]

And so it came to pass!

[Filo]

And so it came to pass!

Time for the do gooders to get their heads out of their arse's

[grayx]

And so it came to pass!

God this was so bound to happen...What a mess. Wonder how many we've let into this country.

Time for the do gooders to get their heads out of their arse's

[glosterred]

Merkel and the EU will have to radically rethink their immigration plans now.

[wilts rover]

And so it came to pass!

Time for the do gooders to get their heads out of their arse's

Mad Mick was right all along then Filo, send in the gunboats?

800000 migrants have arrived in Europe this year, there were 8 terrorists. You are looking at the wrong scapegoats, both the problem and the solution are in the Middle East. If we stopped IS in Syria then there woundn;t be any refugees or terrorist training centres. But it needs to be a UN solution, not an EU one.

[DevilMayCry]

Merkel and the EU will have to radically rethink their immigration plans now.

The germans are also upset about Merkel policy to invite arab immigrants into their country. I stayed 2 months in Hamburg and every Sunday, the germans organized protests against this situation. I asked some of them what is all about, and they told me they wanted to be asked if they agree to have arab immigrants in Germany. Merkel decided this without asking them, so they are very upset about this. Germans didn't want to have these immigrants in their country, they wanted to close their borders for them.

[neil grainger]

Sorry Bobg, I respect an awful lot of what you say but I disagree with your stance on this.
I posted on here last night at the height of the news emerging from Paris and perhaps my words could have been chosen more carefully.

But we DO have an enemy within and anybody who tries to deny that is deluding themselves.

Glyn Wigley, I completely disagree with you and I fail to understand your point. Are you suggesting that every "C of E" murderer ( if that's what you meant) claims that they acted in the name of God?
I must be missing something.
The I.S. nutters in Paris murdered innocent people in the name of their religion. The clue is in their name.....

The rapists in Keighley chose a young white girl as their target. They would never have chosen a young Asian girl.

Like I said, there is an elephant in the room.

There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.

I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.

These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.

It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?

Oh, not this b*llocks again!!

Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?

Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?

No? The b*****ds, their religion obviously approves.

See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?

[neil grainger]

There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.


I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.

These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.

It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?

Oh, not this b*llocks again!!

Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?

Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?

No? The b*****ds, their religion obviously approves.

See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?

It's your argument that's crap Glyn!

When did you last hear of a group of "C of E'rs" walking into a theatre and gunning down 90 people in the name of God?
And justifying their murders in God's name?

Shame on you.

[BobG]

The point, Neil, is that encouraging xenophobia will not solve anything. Have you never heard the saying that 'hard cases make bad law'? Well, that's exactly what you are suggesting we do. The only way to create peace is to talk to the other side; to work out a means by which both sides can live without rubbing each other up the wrong way too much. What will your position achieve??

Filo: take your head out of your arse for a minute. Think about Northern Ireland, about South Africa; about Peru; about Israel. There's hundreds and hundreds of examples. Sticking the boot in to get your own back achieves the square root of eff all. You end up like the Israelis. Living in an armed camp for decade after decade after decade. As we all know very well, we can't stop these people by force or by intelligence gathering, so why not try something a bit different? Try being brave. Try talking to them. Try working out a solution. It might not work. But it's a devil of a sight more constructive than waving your fists in the air making threats you can't deliver like we've been doing this last 10-15 years.

BobG