The use of Nerve Agent in the UK

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well, May’s statement has just upped the ante somewhat.

I hope no-one is expecting to see England in the World Cup this summer.

Nervous times.

The FA should tell the Government to get stuffed unless the situation is that bad that diplomatic relations are broken off and trade sanctions imposed. Politicians expecting others to 'protest' but not being willing to do anything themselves really get up my nose. Thatcher was just the bloody same, expecting sportspeople to boycott the 1980 Olympics but doing bugger all herself.

[Filo]

Most of the civilised world has said they condem the attack Trump has said nothing, that silence says everything about Trumps Russian connections

[Sprotyrover]

Let's wait until the suspects who placed The noxious item are identified,before we kick off!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, May’s statement has just upped the ante somewhat.

I hope no-one is expecting to see England in the World Cup this summer.

Nervous times.

The FA should tell the Government to get stuffed unless the situation is that bad that diplomatic relations are broken off and trade sanctions imposed. Politicians expecting others to 'protest' but not being willing to do anything themselves really get up my nose. Thatcher was just the bloody same, expecting sportspeople to boycott the 1980 Olympics but doing bugger all herself.

There'll be sanctions announced tomorrow night. It'd be a very humiliating climb-down after May's speech in the Commons yesterday to respond with anything less.

[RedJ]

Sproty is Vladimir Putin and I claim my £5.

[Filo]

Let's wait until the suspects who placed The noxious item are identified,before we kick off!

It's a Russian developed nerve agent, it does n't matter who placed it, the trail leads back to Russia. If Russia has been framed by an ex Soviet state with a grudge Russia needs to come clean about them losing control of their stocks of this agent. Whoever did it wanted the World to know or think it was Russia. We know Assad in Syria has used chemical weapons, and we know Russia are allied to Syria, have Russia been supplying this agent to Syria and has some of it fallen into the wrong hands amidst the chaos of the civil war, could Islamic State have got hold of it? They could then use it to frame Russia and potentially cause conflict between Nuclear powers

[MachoMadness]

Rex Tillerson said yesterday that all signs point to Russian involvement. Today he's out of a job. Funny that.

[Filo]

Rex Tillerson said yesterday that all signs point to Russian involvement. Today he's out of a job. Funny that.

And still nothing from Trump, what does Putin have on him?

[Sprotyrover]

At least 4 former Soviet states have had access to that nerve agent.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Putin funded Trump Organisation when he was bankrupt and couldn’t get a loan from anyone in the West. That’s why he won’t release his tax returns. Or criticise Putin. Ever.

What I don’t know is what Putin has on Sproty.

[wilts rover]

Good article here, on what could be done and what might be effective towards both punishing Russia and changing their attitude and actions in the future, from the guy who was UK ambassador in Moscow at the time of the Litvineko poisoning.

Warning to those of a sensitive nature, it is essentially what Corbyn said yesterday. Punish them diplomatically and financially by siezing assests in the City and implementing the Magnitsky Act but also look at potential areas of co-operation to build a better relationship with them in the future.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/13/salisbury-attack-britain-links-russia-moscow

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

That wasn’t the objectionable thing about Corbyn’s contribution.

It was the fact that
a) He didn’t criticise Russia. At all.
b) He raised the issue of British citizens of Russian origin making donations to the Tory party.

b is an issue which does need to be discussed but yesterday in Parliament wasn’t the time or the place.

This is a very important issue of national security. That’s not the moment to score party political points. I’d say that about any politician who made a decision like that in circumstances like these.

[Geoff Blakesley]

Today
“President Trump agreed with Prime Minister May that the Government of the Russian Federation must provide unambiguous answers regarding how this chemical weapon, developed in Russia, came to be used in the United Kingdom,” the White House said in a brief statement on the call.“The two leaders agreed on the need for consequences for those who use these heinous weapons in flagrant violation of international norms.”

[Copps is Magic]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism

There may be a question of timing but I don't think there's any question of substance.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps.

I never questioned the substance of the allegations. Merely the context and timing. So we’re in agreement.

What I do continue to find concerning though is Corbyn’s long-standing reluctance to explicitly criticise Putin.

[wilts rover]

Even if Putin's long standing opponents say that Corbyn's proposals will be the ones that will be most effective and damage him most?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-vladimir-putin-theresa-may-sergei-skripal-magnitsky-laws-a8253786.html

[Filo]

It looks like Putin miscalculated this one, the rest of the world seems to be on his case now, how will the bully react?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

It only matters if the rest of the world are prepared to take stiff action. Doesn’t matter a damn if they stand on the side tutting while we try to face down Putin.

Which is pretty much what there international affairs experts are saying.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChathamHouse/status/973521922989461504

[Filo]

Filo

It only matters if the rest of the world are prepared to take stiff action. Doesn’t matter a damn if they stand on the side tutting while we try to face down Putin.

Which is pretty much what there international affairs experts are saying.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChathamHouse/status/973521922989461504

True, but how will he react if the rest of the world take action

[BillyStubbsTears]

They could agree to impose tougher sanctions in concert with us.

Or, they might just stand by and say “We support you!” but not actually do anything.

Times like these that a generation of slagging off your allies tends to come back and bite you.

[Filo]

I think JC needs to be removed as Leader of the Labour Party, he's the Neville Chamberlain of our time, the appeasment king

[BillyStubbsTears]

Asking the PM to send a sample of the nerve agent to Russia for them to check it out is beyond stupid. What the hell does he think the outcome of that would be? They get it, check it and say, “Oh sorry! Fair cop”?

If they got a sample, they would test it, find it negative and scream from the rooftops that they were vindicated.

He's either being naive in the extreme here, in implicitly trusting Russia to be straight. Or...well God knows “or what...”

[BillyStubbsTears]

And on the content of the actions announced today:

I assume May has got f**k all concrete support from America and Europe. What she’s announced, after the tone of her speech on Monday is a humiliating climb-down. Looks like we haven’t got the support we need to properly face down Putin.

Which is a worrying omen for the future.

[Filo]

Asking the PM to send a sample of the nerve agent to Russia for them to check it out is beyond stupid. What the hell does he think the outcome of that would be? They get it, check it and say, “Oh sorry! Fair cop.” If they got a sample, they would test it, find it negative and scream from the rooftops that they were vindicated.

He's either being naive in the extreme here, in implicitly trusting Russia to be straight. Or...well God knows “or what...”

The way I understood the evidence will be presented to the OPCW, which in my opinion is the correct procedure, asking an international body to examine the evidence

[Dutch Uncle]

They could agree to impose tougher sanctions in concert with us.

Or, they might just stand by and say “We support you!” but not actually do anything.

Times like these that a generation of slagging off your allies tends to come back and bite you.

Could not agree more.

At the time of the Brexit Referendum I said that my remain vote was not even taking financial factors into account (even though my opinion was strongly that they would be negative for Leave) since being in alliances with friends is far far better and stronger than not.

[DonnyOsmond]

I don't see harm in it being sent to the OPCW. If an individual third party comes back with the same then they won't have a leg to stand on.

Times like this shows how we need to be as close to our neighbours and the EU as possible. We don't want to be pushing people away.

[selby]

    Since when has any of the EU countries come to our aid before.for over a hundred years it has been the other way round.
   Germany don't even pay their way in NATO, and France are always on the fringes of it anyway, both have and always will look after themselves, in fact will step into any opportunities if any arise.
  It's a rerun of 1971, and will just die a death over time, no pun intended.
  A tit for tat chucking out of  known spies and diplomats, that  the security people will have followed, and have, or are coming to the end of their usefulness,as far as gathering intelligence is concerned.
   Filo, if you know any news archives on the internet, the expelling of Russians based in Barnby Dun maybe mentioned in the Sheffield Telegraph or Doncaster evening news/post. It involved the RAF headquaters at Bawtry, and our local airfields at the time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

You're a smart bloke but that first line is just bloody stupid, Little Englander nonsense. Precisely the sort of nonsense that has brought us to this position.

[wilts rover]

I don't see harm in it being sent to the OPCW. If an individual third party comes back with the same then they won't have a leg to stand on.

Times like this shows how we need to be as close to our neighbours and the EU as possible. We don't want to be pushing people away.

That is what Russia has asked the UK to do Donny. https://www.rusemb.org.uk/fnapr/6418

Of course verifying what the substance was doesn't confirm who placed it. It's probable Russia did it, it's most likely Russia did it, the evidence we have to date indicates Russia did it - but that doesn't prove beyond doubt that the Russian state did it.

Here's an alternative possibility for the conspiracy theorists.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/

[wilts rover]

On the call for action from our EU colleagues - lets just remind ourselves again that 40% of Europe's gas comes from Russia.

In addition 30% of BP's oil production comes from Russia.