Is it starting

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boro.

I take your point but there’s two observations I’d make.

1) Yes, most other countries have a longer term history of football being dominated by a few clubs. English football was always somewhat different. We weren’t as dominated by rich clubs as Spain and Italy. We had a higher turnover of top clubs. That’s why England has had 5 winners of the European Cup. No other country has had more than 3. And it’s a decent bet that Everton would have won it in 85/86 without Heysel, so it might well have been 6 English winners. And Derby might well have won it in 72/73 if the red in Turin hadn’t been nobbled.

That came from a highly competitive English league, where the leading clubs never stayed at the top for very long. There was the possibility of an ambitious club or a brilliant manager to bring a club out of the pack and make them world-leading. No other country had that. We’ve now become like the others. Dominated by a handful of mega-clubs.

2) Yes, I agree that the result of that is often sumptuous football. But that makes it entertainment for people who aren’t really fans. For me, it’s the visceral gut-churning will-they/won’t-they thing that makes football the best sport in the world. Watching deBruyne put in another perfect performance bores me shitless. I want to see fallibility. I want to see flawed sides over-achieving against the odds. I want to see football as a competitive, edge of the seat sport, not a perfected and sculpted entertainment. I go to the pictures for that.

[drfchound]

If Wigan and Blackburn were to finish first or second in L1 every season I think it would be very predictable.
Why wouldn’t it be?

[selby]

With the amount of money Wigan lose every year Dickos, if it had not been for the Whelan family they would be back in non league, which may happen in the next ten years, if the current owners are not as committed.

[dickos1]

If Wigan and Blackburn were to finish first or second in L1 every season I think it would be very predictable.
Why wouldn’t it be?

I didn’t say the top 2 every year but they’d be up near the top of the league.
But that doesn’t mean the league is predictable, look at Shrewsbury, look at bury, look at Plymouth. Just because a couple of sides are doing well like they should be it’s daft to say the whole league is predictable.
Simailar to the premier league,

[adamtherover]

With the amount of money Wigan lose every year Dickos, if it had not been for the Whelan family they would be back in non league, which may happen in the next ten years, if the current owners are not as committed.

Isn't the Whelan grandson now the chairman? 

[drfchound]

If Wigan and Blackburn were to finish first or second in L1 every season I think it would be very predictable.
Why wouldn’t it be?

I didn’t say the top 2 every year but they’d be up near the top of the league.
But that doesn’t mean the league is predictable, look at Shrewsbury, look at bury, look at Plymouth. Just because a couple of sides are doing well like they should be it’s daft to say the whole league is predictable.
Simailar to the premier league,

Just out of interest, who said that the whole league is predictable (L1) and similar to the PL.

You did say that Blackburn and Wigan would finish at the top of our league every season if promotion was stopped.
See below:

The top 3 or 4 can be predicted but if you stopped promotion out of our league then Blackburn and Wigan would finish at the top every season also. Doesn’t mean the league is predictable.







Look at Burnley, Bournemouth, Watford.
There’s around 7/8 sides in the prem at the minute who’ve been promoted there in the last 4/5 years and none of them are in the relegation zone

[dickos1]

Your argument was the premier league is very predictable, but in reality it isn't.
Not many would've predicted Burnley and Bournemouth to be in the top ten, or none of the promoted sides to be in the relegation zone, or Man City to be 16 points clear and last years champions to be 8 points off the top 4.
And it's not just this season,

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos

Aye. But I wouldn’t have given you long odds on the sides comprising the top 6. Year after year after stupendously boring year.

[drfchound]

Your argument was the premier league is very predictable, but in reality it isn't.
Not many would've predicted Burnley and Bournemouth to be in the top ten, or none of the promoted sides to be in the relegation zone, or Man City to be 16 points clear and last years champions to be 8 points off the top 4.
And it's not just this season,

You have exaggerated my argument.
I said GENERALLY the top six are the same six clubs.

I also said that this season the bottom six is different for the first time in a while.

I also said that the middle division is made up of teams like Everton who are not good enough for the top six and too good for the bottom six and there are teams who look as though they could be different but it doesn’t often happen.

Clearly, all that is true.

It is likely to stay this way.

[dickos1]

Dickos

Aye. But I wouldn’t have given you long odds on the sides comprising the top 6. Year after year after stupendously boring year.

It’s not year after year though.
Last few years qualifying for Europe you’ve had in addition to this years top 6.
West Ham
Everton
Southampton
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leicester

[drfchound]

Dickos

Aye. But I wouldn’t have given you long odds on the sides comprising the top 6. Year after year after stupendously boring year.

It’s not year after year though.
Last few years qualifying for Europe you’ve had in addition to this years top 6.
West Ham
Everton
Southampton
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leicester

So not in the top six then which is the point under discussion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos

Aye. But I wouldn’t have given you long odds on the sides comprising the top 6. Year after year after stupendously boring year.

It’s not year after year though.
Last few years qualifying for Europe you’ve had in addition to this years top 6.
West Ham
Everton
Southampton
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leicester

Dickos. See my post above. In the last 10 season’s, these are the sides that have filled too 6 places.

Arsenal 10 times
Man C 9
Man U 9
Spurs 9
Chelsea 9
Liverpool 6
Everton 3
Villa 2
Leicester 1
Southampton 1
Newcastle 1

In the ten years before the PL started, the figures were 19 different clubs who made the top 6. Only Liverpool featured every year. The next best were Arsenal and Man U on 7, then Spurs & Everton on 5, Forest on 4. Others who made it included:
Sheff Weds
Leeds
Man C
Palace
Villa
Chelsea
Norwich
Derby
QPR
Wimbledon
West Ham
Southampton
Watford.

THAT was a competitive league. The current one has had most competition throttled out of it because the key result is that the money men see their clubs succeed.

[pib]

If you have to use one (maybe 2 if you count Blackburn alongside Leicester) anomalous teams to win the title in the last 26 years as examples that the PL is competitive, you're making the opposite argument.

Agree with BST's point that it's dull as dishwater. Everyone is going on about Man City this year - great for them and their fans, and yes they do play some good football - but what's in it for the rest of us if they basically win easily every week and put in near-perfect performances? Good games for the neutral aren't one-sided ones.

[dickos1]

Dickos

Aye. But I wouldn’t have given you long odds on the sides comprising the top 6. Year after year after stupendously boring year.

It’s not year after year though.
Last few years qualifying for Europe you’ve had in addition to this years top 6.
West Ham
Everton
Southampton
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leicester

So not in the top six then which is the point under discussion.

Yes in the top 6

[dickos1]

Dickos

Aye. But I wouldn’t have given you long odds on the sides comprising the top 6. Year after year after stupendously boring year.

It’s not year after year though.
Last few years qualifying for Europe you’ve had in addition to this years top 6.
West Ham
Everton
Southampton
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leicester

Dickos. See my post above. In the last 10 season’s, these are the sides that have filled too 6 places.

Arsenal 10 times
Man C 9
Man U 9
Spurs 9
Chelsea 9
Liverpool 6
Everton 3
Villa 2
Leicester 1
Southampton 1
Newcastle 1

In the ten years before the PL started, the figures were 19 different clubs who made the top 6. Only Liverpool featured every year. The next best were Arsenal and Man U on 7, then Spurs & Everton on 5, Forest on 4. Others who made it included:
Sheff Weds
Leeds
Man C
Palace
Villa
Chelsea
Norwich
Derby
QPR
Wimbledon
West Ham
Southampton
Watford.

THAT was a competitive league. The current one has had most competition throttled out of it because the key result is that the money men see their clubs succeed.

I’m not disputing that there are some sides that are always near the top, my point was that if you stopped promotion out of league 1 you’d also get the same sides near the top each year.
Blackburn, Wigan, Rotherham, Charlton etc would be there or thereabouts each year.
It’s not as evident though in league one because if they’re so dominant they leave the league

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos

You’re more missing the point. The top division in England used to be the most competitive in the world. Frequently, clubs with a brilliant manager or with the good fortune to develop star players could burst into the top end of the table. Pretty much every year a club like Forest or Derby or Sheff W or Norwich or Watford or Wimbledon or Palace or QPR or Ipswich would emerge out of the pack and threaten the top of the table.

That is now much, much rarer. 23 of the 25 PL titles have been won by just four clubs. You have to go back 21 years for the last time that a club outside the Big 6 finished second.

If you’re happy with that then grand. Me, it bores me shitless.

[bedale rover]

Scotland had Celtic and Rangers. France have PSG and formerly Lyon. Portugal is Benfica and Porto. Spain has always been Madrid and Barca. Holland has always been Ajax and PSV. Italy was always Milan and Juventus. The fact is almost every other top league is the same, just on a different scale. It isn’t often another team in those leagues win their league. Success breeds more investment and the best players want to play for the most successful clubs. There isn’t a player in the world who doesn’t want to play for the best teams. Just like in the real world the most employable get the best paid jobs in their sector.

It does kill off competition for other clubs. Which is unfortunate - much the same as corporations limit small businesses potential. But i do enjoy watching the creme de la creme going head to head because some beautiful football is there to be seen.

However I feel slightly sorry for the super rich who can have whatever whenever. They never get to feel the happiness the everyday man does when they can finally afford to take their family on that dream holiday or buy that car they always hoped they would own. The years of shit for those magical days when it is finally your turn, like the Britannia, the millennium stadium and Wembley  make supporting a club like ours worth it and extra special.

Just a quibble
In the Eredivisie it tends to be Ajax PSV and Feyenoord who won it last season

[scawsby steve]

Scotland had Celtic and Rangers. France have PSG and formerly Lyon. Portugal is Benfica and Porto. Spain has always been Madrid and Barca. Holland has always been Ajax and PSV. Italy was always Milan and Juventus. The fact is almost every other top league is the same, just on a different scale. It isn’t often another team in those leagues win their league. Success breeds more investment and the best players want to play for the most successful clubs. There isn’t a player in the world who doesn’t want to play for the best teams. Just like in the real world the most employable get the best paid jobs in their sector.

It does kill off competition for other clubs. Which is unfortunate - much the same as corporations limit small businesses potential. But i do enjoy watching the creme de la creme going head to head because some beautiful football is there to be seen.

However I feel slightly sorry for the super rich who can have whatever whenever. They never get to feel the happiness the everyday man does when they can finally afford to take their family on that dream holiday or buy that car they always hoped they would own. The years of shit for those magical days when it is finally your turn, like the Britannia, the millennium stadium and Wembley  make supporting a club like ours worth it and extra special.

Just a quibble
In the Eredivisie it tends to be Ajax PSV and Feyenoord who won it last season

Thanks for that, Bedale; it was doing my head in  trying to remember who that 3rd Dutch team was.

[dickos1]

Dickos

You’re more missing the point. The top division in England used to be the most competitive in the world. Frequently, clubs with a brilliant manager or with the good fortune to develop star players could burst into the top end of the table. Pretty much every year a club like Forest or Derby or Sheff W or Norwich or Watford or Wimbledon or Palace or QPR or Ipswich would emerge out of the pack and threaten the top of the table.

That is now much, much rarer. 23 of the 25 PL titles have been won by just four clubs. You have to go back 21 years for the last time that a club outside the Big 6 finished second.

If you’re happy with that then grand. Me, it bores me shitless.

I agree the top end is predictable billy, but there’s definitely excitement throughout the league, and a lot of unpredictability. Sides constantly do better than expected. And the bottom of the table is always close and brings excitement to the neutral.

[ZiggerZagger]

My old mate who finished his career at Yeovil, has got me two tickets for Wembley for the Chelsea v Saints game.
His old agent, now retired, has got season tickets at all the main clubs you can think of, home and abroad, even a couple at Wembley. For the right price you can get a ticket for any game, that's why he retired. I told him your the reason people like us are priced out of the game. He said no, it's because money runs football in this country now, just like it's run the European game for years. He said once sky got hold of it, it was time to get greedy or get out.
Incidentall he and his family have been going to, and are season ticket holders at Exeter for over 30yrs. "Proper football" he laughs, lot better than eating prawn sarnies at OT surrounded by people taking pictures instead of watching the game.