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I do understand your previous comment SS and maybe my comment wasn't as clear, which was aimed at those voters and their dislike/distrust of ....(ammended) the EUI'm tired of all this shit we have swapped johnson for the EU we should be happy.
Quote from: selby on October 25, 2020, 01:45:59 pm PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.UKIP were irrelevant then.And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.And UKIP started taking support from the Tories. And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.
PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on October 25, 2020, 03:47:07 pmQuote from: selby on October 25, 2020, 01:45:59 pm PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.UKIP were irrelevant then.And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.And UKIP started taking support from the Tories. And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.UKIP was not as important then because the BNP was on a roll at the time.
Quote from: Axholme Lion on November 24, 2020, 03:50:59 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on October 25, 2020, 03:47:07 pmQuote from: selby on October 25, 2020, 01:45:59 pm PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.UKIP were irrelevant then.And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.And UKIP started taking support from the Tories. And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.UKIP was not as important then because the BNP was on a roll at the time.So you couldn't be bothered to take my advice and look at the numbers before giving us your opinion?In terms of voter support, the BNP was irrelevant, as were UKIP.In 2005, they got 0.7% of the General Election vote. UKIP got 2.2%.They got 1.8% of the vote in 2010. UKIP got 3%. Between them, they were barely a blip on the landscape. They were far right loonies, screaming into the void. Neither of them would have got a seat in a sensible PR system, which requires a minimum percentage of the vote to get a seat, precisely to stop the extreme nutter from getting exposure.By 2013, after 3 years of Austerity, that had all changed. UKIP were getting 20-odd% in the polls, bizarrely, much of it from disgruntled ex-Lib Dem voters and most of the rest from the Tories. Labour were 10% in the polls. The economy was tanking. The Tories were panicking and that's when Cameron promised a Brexit Referendum to see off the UKIP threat.
I can't wait for all these doom prophecies to come to fruition especially if they are as good as the science has been about the number of covid deathswere. With experts and scientist like those we could do with a few amateurs having a go and a lottery to get some money in.
Quote from: selby on November 25, 2020, 12:33:41 pm I can't wait for all these doom prophecies to come to fruition especially if they are as good as the science has been about the number of covid deathswere. With experts and scientist like those we could do with a few amateurs having a go and a lottery to get some money in. Are you talking about the projection of the number of covid deaths in a scenario in which the goverment took no action to stop the spread of a deadly disease - or some other ones? Beacuse its' good that nobody serious in powere decided to see if they would come true or not - and decided to put in measures designed to achieve the not.Lets hope they are wise enough to do the same over an EU deal.
Selby.We already HAVE broken the Withdrawal Agreement treaty that was overwhelmingly voted for by Parliament in January.Which treaties have the French and Germans broken?
That’s kind of been dealt with 70-80 years ago..