They don't really get the North, these Tories.

[SydneyRover]

Even Brown had the nous the bring the banks in to public ownership following the 2008 crash and he was about as left wing as Keith Joseph .

And here we go again. Playground stuff. If you're not as left wing as me, you're a Tory.

I never said that .

Keith is on camera at a Labour leadership hustings sticking his hand in the air when asked if he is in favour of nationalising the energy companies .

Is there anything he campaign on that he's not backtracked on ? .

This isn't about left , right or centre although Keith has made it so .

This is about standing on the fundamentals you were elected to stand on .

If this was a Tory you and Sydney would be ripping him to pieces , the colour of his rosette doesn't alter the fact he's a liar , a democracy denier and an extremely limited leader who has to taken the party to a place where it daren't be the party it's supposed to be and so therefore has little to say .

Next on his hit list will be Ed who is in favour of nationalising the energy companies .

Mark my words .

Billy I want to vote for him , I really do even if I have to hold my nose but this clown makes even that highly unlikely .

He's everything the party shouldn't be .

You keep on making things up to suit your own narrative tyke, there is enough in the Guardian almost every day 90% true the rest opinion and a whole heap in the bbc about them to overwhelm the forum's server if I/we wanted.

[tyke1962]

It's about winning and taking power from the tories, and yourself tyke it appears only jc has matched your criteria for 'good' leadership since you arrived at voting age and look how well that went?

You wouldn't support Andy Burnham for the job either cos that would make him a liar, wouldn't it tyke?

It's about taking power away from the Tories .

Well it is if the alternative is better and there's nothing to suggest that the Labour Party are that .

The Tories are more likely to nationalise the energy companies than Labour given Keith's latest backtrack .

They've recently taken a railway back in to public ownership because it was in trouble .

Absorb that fact .

Keith says now is not the time to be talking about nationalising the energy companies .

Well when would be a good time , when the fecking lights go out or the elderly freeze to death this winter ?

Your the Labour Party leader you clown you aren't supposed to believe in the total free market you absolute moron .

Even Brown had the nous the bring the banks in to public ownership following the 2008 crash and he was about as left wing as Keith Joseph .

How can doing nothing be a better alternative Sydney ?

Your supposed to be opposing and providing credible alternatives .

Plenty to be going on with Sydney at the moment and Keith can't think of one single credible alternative policy .

Tell you why in my opinion and it is only my opinion .

He's too shyte scared to be left where the real ideas are and more concerned on not being Corbyn .

The place he's dragged the party is devoid of any ideas or policies that cut through .

We are the centre now and not those nasty left wing types .

The public say , so what .

I'm surprised you support or even discuss McCluskey as he's a liar too, doesn't look like you have many you can rely on tyke.

What on earth gives you the impression I'm even remotely impressed with McCluskey ?

He was a terrible trade union leader almost as bad as Scargill .

I don't fit neatly in to the boxes you choose to place me in old pal .

[SydneyRover]

OK nome the people at present that you could vote for, JC changed his mind several times (lied) if not more.

I'm just off out love ................

Can you pick up some bread .................

Sure, I'll get one of those dark crusty loaves from that new shop that's opened up.

......................................

Hi darlin' I'm home ...............

Did you go to the new bread shop?

Well no, I went to the bookies and met Len, we went for a couple of pints so I picked up a mother's pride from the corner shop.

Liar.

[tyke1962]

Even Brown had the nous the bring the banks in to public ownership following the 2008 crash and he was about as left wing as Keith Joseph .

And here we go again. Playground stuff. If you're not as left wing as me, you're a Tory.

I never said that .

Keith is on camera at a Labour leadership hustings sticking his hand in the air when asked if he is in favour of nationalising the energy companies .

Is there anything he campaign on that he's not backtracked on ? .

This isn't about left , right or centre although Keith has made it so .

This is about standing on the fundamentals you were elected to stand on .

If this was a Tory you and Sydney would be ripping him to pieces , the colour of his rosette doesn't alter the fact he's a liar , a democracy denier and an extremely limited leader who has to taken the party to a place where it daren't be the party it's supposed to be and so therefore has little to say .

Next on his hit list will be Ed who is in favour of nationalising the energy companies .

Mark my words .

Billy I want to vote for him , I really do even if I have to hold my nose but this clown makes even that highly unlikely .

He's everything the party shouldn't be .

You keep on making things up to suit your own narrative tyke, there is enough in the Guardian almost every day 90% true the rest opinion and a whole heap in the bbc about them to overwhelm the forum's server if I/we wanted.

Sydney .

Clearly on the video in the link .

Starmer raises his hand when asked on would he be in favour of nationalising the energy companies .

Clear as day at 1.40

.https://youtu.be/bKb1i3BHV4c

[SydneyRover]

Tyke I sometimes wonder about you, you don't appear to have a political bone in your brain.

When you run out of fact you start with insults that only to confirm the 'gammon' tag that has been thrown around, and you don't make political sense.

Everyone changes their minds, but in business and politics if you don't to some extent you'd be dead in the water quick smart, I'll wager my £100 to your £50 to go to the food bank that you cannot name a front bench politician that has never changed their minds at some point.

What would be the point in taking a policy to an election if you know it will cost you that election.

[tyke1962]

OK nome the people at present that you could vote for, JC changed his mind several times (lied) if not more.

I'm just off out love ................

Can you pick up some bread .................

Sure, I'll get one of those dark crusty loaves from that new shop that's opened up.

......................................

Hi darlin' I'm home ...............

Did you go to the new bread shop?

Well no, I went to the bookies and met Len, we went for a couple of pints so I picked up a mother's pride from the corner shop.

Liar.

He didn't lie to win the leadership did he .

You knew what he stood for at least economically .

Now you may have disliked him , disagreed with him but you knew what he stood behind .

He gave the party an identity .

Weak man and some pretty unsavoury meetings with equally unsavoury people was his nemesis but not what he stood on .

Starmer will not get near his 2017 vote share , not a chance .

I'd give Rayner a go , it's not exactly a particularly great pool to choose from to be totally honest but none the less if you insist on pinning me down .

[SydneyRover]

You may as well go and read the sun in the toilet tyke because you don't listen and you don;t learn

[tyke1962]

Tyke I sometimes wonder about you, you don't appear to have a political bone in your brain.

When you run out of fact you start with insults that only to confirm the 'gammon' tag that has been thrown around, and you don't make political sense.

Everyone changes their minds, but in business and politics if you don't to some extent you'd be dead in the water quick smart, I'll wager my £100 to your £50 to go to the food bank that you cannot name a front bench politician that has never changed their minds at some point.

What would be the point in taking a policy to an election if you know it will cost you that election.

Ah the old all politicians lie retort .

So Johnson gets a free pass too then ?

Yes or no will suffice .

[SydneyRover]

OK nome the people at present that you could vote for, JC changed his mind several times (lied) if not more.

I'm just off out love ................

Can you pick up some bread .................

Sure, I'll get one of those dark crusty loaves from that new shop that's opened up.

......................................

Hi darlin' I'm home ...............

Did you go to the new bread shop?

Well no, I went to the bookies and met Len, we went for a couple of pints so I picked up a mother's pride from the corner shop.

Liar.

He didn't lie to win the leadership did he .

You knew what he stood for at least economically .

Now you may have disliked him , disagreed with him but you knew what he stood behind .

He gave the party an identity .

Weak man and some pretty unsavoury meetings with equally unsavoury people was his nemesis but not what he stood on .

Starmer will not get near his 2017 vote share , not a chance .

I'd give Rayner a go , it's not exactly a particularly great pool to choose from to be totally honest but none the less if you insist on pinning me down .

I have told you if I had the option I would have voted for him, how many times?

So, JC never changed a policy position before he became leader?

[SydneyRover]

Tyke I sometimes wonder about you, you don't appear to have a political bone in your brain.

When you run out of fact you start with insults that only to confirm the 'gammon' tag that has been thrown around, and you don't make political sense.

Everyone changes their minds, but in business and politics if you don't to some extent you'd be dead in the water quick smart, I'll wager my £100 to your £50 to go to the food bank that you cannot name a front bench politician that has never changed their minds at some point.

What would be the point in taking a policy to an election if you know it will cost you that election.

Ah the old all politicians lie retort .

So Johnson gets a free pass too then ?

Yes or no will suffice .

You argue as a child does tyke

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.
You said it in your own words that I quoted. Everything else is meaningless in this discussion if you start from the premise that Brown was as left wing as Keith Joseph.

[SydneyRover]

for you tyke

''Jeremy Corbyn is one of the most misunderstood leaders in the UK Labour party’s history. Immensely popular with voters, but loathed by the party establishment, neither the British press, nor the Cameron government, know quite what to do with him.

Matthew Tempest spoke to Rosa Prince, the author of the new Corbyn biography, Comrade Corbyn, about his personal history, and what the Corbyn phenomenon says about UK politics.

Rosa Prince is a former political correspondent for the Daily Mirror and the Daily Telegraph in London. Her biography of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is published by BiteBack Publishing.

Many readers might be surprised to learn that the new leader of the Labour party actually voted to pull out of the EU in the 1970s, and voted against the Maastricht treaty of 1993. What has changed his mind? ..................

 ..........................

''And yes, you’re right, Jeremy Corbyn’s been a little later than most to change his mind. Even as late as the early stages of the leadership election last summer, he was still saying he could see circumstances where he might vote, even campaign, to leave''

well, I'll go to owr ouse.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/interview/corbyn-biographer-how-the-labour-leader-changed-his-mind-on-brexit/

[tyke1962]

Tyke.
You said it in your own words that I quoted. Everything else is meaningless in this discussion if you start from the premise that Brown was as left wing as Keith Joseph.

I was trying to be sarcastic .

 

[tyke1962]

for you tyke

''Jeremy Corbyn is one of the most misunderstood leaders in the UK Labour party’s history. Immensely popular with voters, but loathed by the party establishment, neither the British press, nor the Cameron government, know quite what to do with him.

Matthew Tempest spoke to Rosa Prince, the author of the new Corbyn biography, Comrade Corbyn, about his personal history, and what the Corbyn phenomenon says about UK politics.

Rosa Prince is a former political correspondent for the Daily Mirror and the Daily Telegraph in London. Her biography of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is published by BiteBack Publishing.

Many readers might be surprised to learn that the new leader of the Labour party actually voted to pull out of the EU in the 1970s, and voted against the Maastricht treaty of 1993. What has changed his mind? ..................

 ..........................

''And yes, you’re right, Jeremy Corbyn’s been a little later than most to change his mind. Even as late as the early stages of the leadership election last summer, he was still saying he could see circumstances where he might vote, even campaign, to leave''

well, I'll go to owr ouse.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/interview/corbyn-biographer-how-the-labour-leader-changed-his-mind-on-brexit/

Did he campaign to remain along with Cameron ?

Never saw him share a stage with him once in 2016 .

Cameron even criticised him for not doing his bit .

Trying to compare him to Keith is plain silly .

From a backbench position in the 1970's when the Labour Party and trade unions were anti common market  to leader of the Party over 30 years later when 95% were EU fanatics isn't a fair comparisons when compared to Keith campaigning to nationalise the energy companies in a leadership campaign .

Then changing his mind 12 months later as leader at a time the energy companies are going bust and consumers are facing massive price increases with a winter to face .

[tyke1962]

Tyke I sometimes wonder about you, you don't appear to have a political bone in your brain.

When you run out of fact you start with insults that only to confirm the 'gammon' tag that has been thrown around, and you don't make political sense.

Everyone changes their minds, but in business and politics if you don't to some extent you'd be dead in the water quick smart, I'll wager my £100 to your £50 to go to the food bank that you cannot name a front bench politician that has never changed their minds at some point.

What would be the point in taking a policy to an election if you know it will cost you that election.

Ah the old all politicians lie retort .

So Johnson gets a free pass too then ?

Yes or no will suffice .

You argue as a child does tyke

Whose throwing insults around now ?

[SydneyRover]

for you tyke

''Jeremy Corbyn is one of the most misunderstood leaders in the UK Labour party’s history. Immensely popular with voters, but loathed by the party establishment, neither the British press, nor the Cameron government, know quite what to do with him.

Matthew Tempest spoke to Rosa Prince, the author of the new Corbyn biography, Comrade Corbyn, about his personal history, and what the Corbyn phenomenon says about UK politics.

Rosa Prince is a former political correspondent for the Daily Mirror and the Daily Telegraph in London. Her biography of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is published by BiteBack Publishing.

Many readers might be surprised to learn that the new leader of the Labour party actually voted to pull out of the EU in the 1970s, and voted against the Maastricht treaty of 1993. What has changed his mind? ..................

 ..........................

''And yes, you’re right, Jeremy Corbyn’s been a little later than most to change his mind. Even as late as the early stages of the leadership election last summer, he was still saying he could see circumstances where he might vote, even campaign, to leave''

well, I'll go to owr ouse.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/interview/corbyn-biographer-how-the-labour-leader-changed-his-mind-on-brexit/

Did he campaign to remain along with Cameron ?

Never saw him share a stage with him once in 2016 .

Cameron even criticised him for not doing his bit .

Trying to compare him to Keith is plain silly .

From a backbench position in the 1970's when the Labour Party and trade unions were anti common market  to leader of the Party over 30 years later when 95% were EU fanatics isn't a fair comparisons when compared to Keith campaigning to nationalise the energy companies in a leadership campaign .

Then changing his mind 12 months later as leader at a time the energy companies are going bust and consumers are facing massive price increases with a winter to face .

who said I'm comparing him to starmer? I'm just pointing out how ludicrous your criteria is, the person you'd support with your criteria hasn't been born yet.

[SydneyRover]

Tyke I sometimes wonder about you, you don't appear to have a political bone in your brain.

When you run out of fact you start with insults that only to confirm the 'gammon' tag that has been thrown around, and you don't make political sense.

Everyone changes their minds, but in business and politics if you don't to some extent you'd be dead in the water quick smart, I'll wager my £100 to your £50 to go to the food bank that you cannot name a front bench politician that has never changed their minds at some point.

What would be the point in taking a policy to an election if you know it will cost you that election.

Ah the old all politicians lie retort .

So Johnson gets a free pass too then ?

Yes or no will suffice .

You argue as a child does tyke

Whose throwing insults around now ?

This is not an insult it's the truth, you keep changing the point of the argument.

[BillyStubbsTears]

for you tyke

''Jeremy Corbyn is one of the most misunderstood leaders in the UK Labour party’s history. Immensely popular with voters, but loathed by the party establishment, neither the British press, nor the Cameron government, know quite what to do with him.

Matthew Tempest spoke to Rosa Prince, the author of the new Corbyn biography, Comrade Corbyn, about his personal history, and what the Corbyn phenomenon says about UK politics.

Rosa Prince is a former political correspondent for the Daily Mirror and the Daily Telegraph in London. Her biography of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is published by BiteBack Publishing.

Many readers might be surprised to learn that the new leader of the Labour party actually voted to pull out of the EU in the 1970s, and voted against the Maastricht treaty of 1993. What has changed his mind? ..................

 ..........................

''And yes, you’re right, Jeremy Corbyn’s been a little later than most to change his mind. Even as late as the early stages of the leadership election last summer, he was still saying he could see circumstances where he might vote, even campaign, to leave''

well, I'll go to owr ouse.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/interview/corbyn-biographer-how-the-labour-leader-changed-his-mind-on-brexit/

That article. Jesus, where to begin?

Corbyn immensely popular with voters? In the last week before the 2019 election, there was a poll that had him on -60% net approval. By comparison, Starmer has Kim Jong Un approval ratings.

Corbyn changed his mind on Brexit? Did he f**k. He was a lifelong believer in us being out of the EU. Havibg barely shown his face throughout the Brexit campaign, he was out in front of the cameras on Westminster Green at sparrowfart on 24 June 2016 demanding that Article 50 be invoked immediately. It was one of his major political ambitions achieved.

What he had to do during the campaign was to pretend he supported Remain because if he had been truthful, he would have been toppled as leader immediately. Hence that excruciating interview the day before the vote, on an obscure American far left internet channel where the interviewer asked him with barely suppressed incredulity how a lifelong Bennite could not be in favour of Brexit. And Corbyn replied (and I shit you not) that he understood the Left argument against the EU, but he supported Remain because plastic bags dropped in the sea off Colombia could end up washed ashore on beaches in Japan.

No way on God's earth did Corbyn vote Remain once he was inside the polling booth.

[Axholme Lion]

This thread shows why as poor as the Conservatives are why they will probably win the next election.

[scawsby steve]

You may as well go and read the sun in the toilet tyke because you don't listen and you don;t learn

The Sun? You mean the one Starmer wrote an article for the other day, thus adding the City of Liverpool to all the other areas of the North that will never vote for him?

I don't think it's Tyke that's not listening and learning.

[normal rules]

I’ve extracted this comment from the Pandora papers thread link but I think it pretty much sums things up nicely.

Keir Starmer’s Labour party is a manifestation of a “woke” metropolitan elite utterly alien to the “red wall” voters who flocked to the Tories at the last election.

[tyke1962]

You may as well go and read the sun in the toilet tyke because you don't listen and you don;t learn

The Sun? You mean the one Starmer wrote an article for the other day, thus adding the City of Liverpool to all the other areas of the North that will never vote for him?

I don't think it's Tyke that's not listening and learning.

Steve what's frustrating more than anything is that Starmer is taking the Labour Party in the totally wrong direction .

The Regan and Thatcher creation of neoliberalism is massively on its ass and has been possibly since the financial crash in 2008 .

That's why we've had populism in the U.S with Trump and currently with the Tories and Johnson .

Trump and Regan are two totally different Republican US Presidents and Thatcher and Johnson are clearly two different UK PM's .

The Republican and Tory's saw Neoliberalism was on its ass and switched to populism to remain in the game .

The problem was the Trump reign and the capitol riots in January of this year scared the shyte out of the U.S. Establishment and realised they'd gone too far and created a monster .

We've also had a devastating global pandemic to deal with .

It could very well happen here with Johnson and what's occurring currently right now in the UK but possibly not to the extent it did in the U.S. .

Biden's seen the political space that's opened up , a very moderate democrat he may be but he's seen the left view with the state providing an unprecedented amount of dollars to recover the country and extinguish populism .

He'd the sense to use Bernie Sanders who is from the left not feckin purge him like we are seeing here with Keith .

State intervention is massively back in the game .

Keith's is placing his tanks on ground that no longer exists , somewhere that existed before the 2008 crash , Popularism and Brexit plus a global pandemic .

To say the world's changed is an understatement .

The Tories here have spotted this state intervention wave , now it may well be more rhetoric than policy but none the less they have spotted the space with levelling up , ending the low wage cheap Labour economy etc etc .

I repeat it may well be rhetoric for the benefit of my critics but they have huge media influence and are the best liars in the world so the policy doesn't have to match the rhetoric .

The energy is coming from a left direction and Keith can't see it and even back tracks on nationalisation of the energy companies whilst wages war with the ideas factory from the left .

Rhetoric is all the Tories need with the opposition going in the opposite direction from where an election is likely to be fought and won .

I dare say he may have more up his sleeve than he's shown as time ticks down to the next election but the signs aren't good I have to say .

A bit long winded I admit but that's my take .

[ColinDouglasHandshake]

This thread shows why as poor as the Conservatives are why they will probably win the next election.

No probably about it. The Tories can get away with murder (and literally have) and still the braindead idiots will vote them in again.

I can't work out who i hate the most. The Tories for just being complete t**ts or Labour for being so useless and irrelevant.

[SydneyRover]

You may as well go and read the sun in the toilet tyke because you don't listen and you don;t learn

The Sun? You mean the one Starmer wrote an article for the other day, thus adding the City of Liverpool to all the other areas of the North that will never vote for him?

I don't think it's Tyke that's not listening and learning.

Yep you're correct Steve, from the comfort of his armchair he's going to do what?

Lead the next revolution of the socialist alliance to win an election?

The left of the left are so relaxed about things they can't even be arsed to vote.

You have more chance of witnessing this (still a white hetero sexual male one) than seeing the Left of the Left win an election without the centre.

''The Ascension of Jesus (anglicized from the Vulgate Latin: ascensio Iesu, lit. 'ascent of Jesus') is the Christian teaching that Christ physically departed from Earth by rising into Heaven, in the presence of eleven of his apostles.[1] According to the New Testament narrative, the Ascension occurred forty days after the resurrection.[1] In the Christian tradition, reflected in the major Christian creeds and confessional statements, God exalted Jesus after his death,[2][3] raising him from the dead and taking him to Heaven, where Jesus took his seat at the right hand of God.[4]''

Added

Ask tyke to tell you about the last time the left swept into power, so we can have hope and be inspired.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

If you get off your soapbox for a moment and consider policies from the 2019 Labour manifesto that Starmer has already signed up to, we can have a sensible discussion.

There's a list in these two tweets.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FisherAndrew79/status/1443498164682625026

https://mobile.twitter.com/FisherAndrew79/status/1443502296210583559?s=20

That's a hell of a lot of left wing policies from a Red Tory.

So come on. What are YOU prepared to do to find a compromise non the Left. Or is it that, unless you get it just the way you want it, you'd rather have the Tories in power?

[SydneyRover]

Hey tyke, I think you might have something there helping the tories retain power, everyone is going to be on high wages, because johnson has guts.

I'll finally be able to come off night shift.

[scawsby steve]

Sydney and BST, what do you both think of Starmer writing that article in the Sun, thus alienating the City of Liverpool?

[DonnyOsmond]

I’ve extracted this comment from the Pandora papers thread link but I think it pretty much sums things up nicely.

Keir Starmer’s Labour party is a manifestation of a “woke” metropolitan elite utterly alien to the “red wall” voters who flocked to the Tories at the last election.

What is your definition of "woke" as it originally meant someone who is aware of injustices of the world, so against racism, etc. I think any normal person would say they're woke.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Perfectly simple SS.

You don't win political power if you don't communicate with people. Whatever I think about the Sun (and for the record I think it is beneath being worth wiping your arse on) the fact is that many other people don't think that, and get much of their political news filtered through it. So any politician who ignores it is cutting his nose off to spite his face.

As for the people of Liverpool, I'd hope they'd be able to see the big picture that I've explained above. There is no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't hate the Sun and boycott buying it, while accepting that you have to use it if you want to get into power (and ideally, hold the bas**rds that own and edit it to account once you are in power).

[DonnyOsmond]

There are other routes to power and to attract more voters than alienating the people that see the party as their logical home, whether it's the left of the party or the people of Liverpool.