Brexit Benefits Log

[Ldr]

NNK don't sweat it, it's far too easy to appear antagonistic in text format

[belton rover]

Belton, please accept my apologies for not replying sooner to your comments, I was somewhat busy yesterday and didn't visit this thread until minutes before I went to bed last night.
 
Having said that, I believe Glyn has more than adequately summed up the situation; and for that I thank him.  In fact, if there had been an announcement that everyone in the UK was suddenly £1,000 a year better off due to Brexit then my statement would have been equally true "Just look what Brexiters voted for....", but of course, you wouldn't have dissagreed with that, would you?
 
But if you want to look into this a little deeper then when the issue was raised prior to the referendum there were only three possible options in respect of the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border question....
 
1. The UK as a whole remain in the Single Market and Customs Union
2. A Hard Border is set up between NI and the RoI
3. NI remains in the Single Market and Customs Union with a border between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively in the Irish Sea.
 
That was as true then as it is today, there are no other possible options. Yes, at the time Gove and Johnson talked about a 'technology solution', but that was just another Unicorn to fool people - such a system doesn't exist and even if it were to be developed it would have to meet EU requirements and there would have to be border checks anyway.
 
So, let's look at those options in a little detail....
 
Option 1. was the sensible option as it removed all issues surrounding the NI/RoI border.  Further, it also simplified all trade between the UK and the EU as in reality nothing would have changed.  However, it would have been hard to sell to hard line Brexiters and, especially, the Hard Right in the Tory Party who would have argued that it meant that we wouldn't have really left the EU. May tried to include a form of it in her agreement with the EU however, this was voted down by the Tory Hard Right and, sadly, Labour!
 
Option 2. was a non starter. Firstly, it would be totally against the Good Friday Agreement.  Secondly there were many physical, cost and trade implications, (not least the Americans openly stating that we could forget a trade agreement if we wrote off the GFA). There would also need to be border checks.
 
So that leaves Option 3. which is where we are today. That was never going to be acceptable to the 'loyalists' in NI but it was the only option left to the Tory Right.  Johnson openly said that there would be no border checks with this option, (another of his lies), and that if there was any additional paperwork send it to him and he'd sort it, (yet another lie). As the effects of leaving the EU in the way we chose are now having a big effect on the people of NI it was always to be expected that they'd react strongly to it.
 
And now we're seeing the effects of choosing Option 3. Something totally predictable, but either ignored by Leave Voters or they couldn't care less.  I've posted this before, but in a discussion with friends about the three options, prior to the referendum, one of them actually said "Fcuk the Irish", falling clearly into that latter category; the others felt that there'd be another solution that would solve the issues falling into the 'ignore reality' category.
 
I genuinely hope that the situation in NI doesn't escalate to the point of violence and bloodshed, but I stand fully by my statement in my earlier post.

Thanks for your detailed reply, Not.
As I tried to explain to Glyn, my issue wasn’t with the link or the facts regarding the Good Friday agreement. It was with your comment about ‘what Brexiters voted for’, which was, to me a blase comment written to antagonise, like you might do regarding blue passports or something equally trivial.
If you didn’t mean for it to have that effect, then fine, but if you did, then it was in very bad taste.

This is why I asked you to clarify what you meant. It’s just a shame that others thought it the right thing to do to jump on the remainers’ roadshow and answer for you.

It most certainly was not written to antagonise, Belton; it was simply a question of fact to point out a failure of Brexit, and I hope my further detailed explanation was further clarification of what I meant. The issue was certainly well known before the vote.
 
I started this thread with a view to people posting real benefits of Brexit if/as they arose. To date I seem to be the only one who has posted a 'tangible benefit' - EU companies applying for a licence to practice in the finance area of the UK, (much earlier in the thread now), yet no one has commented on that or explored it further.
 
Perhaps my mistake was in posting the link to what is happening in NI in the Brexit Benefits Log thread rather than what I posted itself; and that in hindsight I should have created a separate thread.

I think you are right - perhaps it was where the link was posted that got my goat - as you know, I don’t think the thread comes close to acheiving what you assure us you wanted it to acheive. If it did, then there would only be a handful of posts on here wouldn’t there?
I ‘d also like to withdraw my initial comment/reaction to your post.
It was an over reaction.

[Donnywolf]

How wolfie  (forgive if a stupid question but waiting to head down for surgery so head not in good place

Oh good god - good luck with that - Im really cringing now

I was trying just to suggest that as UK PLC we will lose loads of money by missing all the ROI and presumably NI lorries that wont now cross the Irish Sea and the Channel as they go direct

All the Ferry fares all the diesel they may have bought ,breakdowns serviced etc and incidentals like food etc

I thought it would be substantial sum of money thrown away as ROI hauliers open up and support a direct EU 2 EU route that they have previously spurned

... but enough of that i just hope op goes well

[Not Now Kato]

Belton, please accept my apologies for not replying sooner to your comments, I was somewhat busy yesterday and didn't visit this thread until minutes before I went to bed last night.
 
Having said that, I believe Glyn has more than adequately summed up the situation; and for that I thank him.  In fact, if there had been an announcement that everyone in the UK was suddenly £1,000 a year better off due to Brexit then my statement would have been equally true "Just look what Brexiters voted for....", but of course, you wouldn't have dissagreed with that, would you?
 
But if you want to look into this a little deeper then when the issue was raised prior to the referendum there were only three possible options in respect of the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border question....
 
1. The UK as a whole remain in the Single Market and Customs Union
2. A Hard Border is set up between NI and the RoI
3. NI remains in the Single Market and Customs Union with a border between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively in the Irish Sea.
 
That was as true then as it is today, there are no other possible options. Yes, at the time Gove and Johnson talked about a 'technology solution', but that was just another Unicorn to fool people - such a system doesn't exist and even if it were to be developed it would have to meet EU requirements and there would have to be border checks anyway.
 
So, let's look at those options in a little detail....
 
Option 1. was the sensible option as it removed all issues surrounding the NI/RoI border.  Further, it also simplified all trade between the UK and the EU as in reality nothing would have changed.  However, it would have been hard to sell to hard line Brexiters and, especially, the Hard Right in the Tory Party who would have argued that it meant that we wouldn't have really left the EU. May tried to include a form of it in her agreement with the EU however, this was voted down by the Tory Hard Right and, sadly, Labour!
 
Option 2. was a non starter. Firstly, it would be totally against the Good Friday Agreement.  Secondly there were many physical, cost and trade implications, (not least the Americans openly stating that we could forget a trade agreement if we wrote off the GFA). There would also need to be border checks.
 
So that leaves Option 3. which is where we are today. That was never going to be acceptable to the 'loyalists' in NI but it was the only option left to the Tory Right.  Johnson openly said that there would be no border checks with this option, (another of his lies), and that if there was any additional paperwork send it to him and he'd sort it, (yet another lie). As the effects of leaving the EU in the way we chose are now having a big effect on the people of NI it was always to be expected that they'd react strongly to it.
 
And now we're seeing the effects of choosing Option 3. Something totally predictable, but either ignored by Leave Voters or they couldn't care less.  I've posted this before, but in a discussion with friends about the three options, prior to the referendum, one of them actually said "Fcuk the Irish", falling clearly into that latter category; the others felt that there'd be another solution that would solve the issues falling into the 'ignore reality' category.
 
I genuinely hope that the situation in NI doesn't escalate to the point of violence and bloodshed, but I stand fully by my statement in my earlier post.

Thanks for your detailed reply, Not.
As I tried to explain to Glyn, my issue wasn’t with the link or the facts regarding the Good Friday agreement. It was with your comment about ‘what Brexiters voted for’, which was, to me a blase comment written to antagonise, like you might do regarding blue passports or something equally trivial.
If you didn’t mean for it to have that effect, then fine, but if you did, then it was in very bad taste.

This is why I asked you to clarify what you meant. It’s just a shame that others thought it the right thing to do to jump on the remainers’ roadshow and answer for you.

It most certainly was not written to antagonise, Belton; it was simply a question of fact to point out a failure of Brexit, and I hope my further detailed explanation was further clarification of what I meant. The issue was certainly well known before the vote.
 
I started this thread with a view to people posting real benefits of Brexit if/as they arose. To date I seem to be the only one who has posted a 'tangible benefit' - EU companies applying for a licence to practice in the finance area of the UK, (much earlier in the thread now), yet no one has commented on that or explored it further.
 
Perhaps my mistake was in posting the link to what is happening in NI in the Brexit Benefits Log thread rather than what I posted itself; and that in hindsight I should have created a separate thread.

I think you are right - perhaps it was where the link was posted that got my goat - as you know, I don’t think the thread comes close to acheiving what you assure us you wanted it to acheive. If it did, then there would only be a handful of posts on here wouldn’t there?
I ‘d also like to withdraw my initial comment/reaction to your post.
It was an over reaction.

No problem Belton, I really should have created a separate thread - it's just that I have friends in Ireland so I am naturally very concerned as to what is happening over there.  I also spent some time working in Belfast, (non forces related), immediately after Bloody Sunday and am acutely aware from experience how bad things were over there at the time, and I'd hate for it to go back to that. Lots of tales to tell, it wasn't pleasant for someone from England over there at the time, by any stretch of the imagination, but it was much worse for the people who lived there themselves. Though I can now look back to the experience fondly and with a bit of a smile.
 
Have been back on a number of occasions, wonderful City, though a trip down the Falls Road is something I'd not like to repeat!

[Ldr]

Cheers Wolfie appreciate that, back home now and thanks for the clarification

[selby]

  The US have lifted 25% tariffs on a number of items including Scotch  Whiskey single Malts imposed because of EU subsidies to building aircraft.
  Now we are out of the Eu  talks are continuing on a full blown trade agreement with the US.
  2) sold two tranches of Barclays bank shares bought in January for 96 pence sold for 170 pence. Hope you were on them lads, well you've got to take advantage while the chance is  is there haven't you.

[Donnywolf]

Cheers Wolfie appreciate that, back home now and thanks for the clarification

Great stuff...

[SydneyRover]

Yep, good news Ldr.

[belton rover]

Here’s to recuperating with a win today LDR.
Take care.

[SydneyRover]

Brexit benefit .......... farage exit only a few more dishonest incompetents to go.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Brexit benefit .......... farage exit only a few more dishonest incompetents to go.

What makes you think Farage has gone? He clings on worse than haemorrhoids.

[SydneyRover]

Maybe a lighted taper would cure both?

[BillyStubbsTears]

He "went" before didn't he.

Said he'd done with British politics, although oddly kept drawing his MEP salary for a job he didn't do. And was given use of his friend Banks's London penthouse flat and chauffer-driven car because, he claimed, he didn't have the income to run his life on his own salary.

They come in all shapes and sizes, these campaigners against The Elite, don't they?

[selby]

  Appoint him as our Ambassador in Brussels or Paris.

[Bentley Bullet]

Maybe he should have been more honest, like Neil Kinnock, and kept on drawing his MEP salary for a job he didn't believe in, but paid well.

[BillyStubbsTears]

In what way did Kinnock not believe in the EU?

[Bentley Bullet]

I don't know why he didn't believe in it before he changed his mind.

[belton rover]

It appears he didn’t believe in it until Labour lost the election in 1983. After that he changed his mind in a futile attempt to give Labour a better chance of winning the next one, and giving himself a better chance of becoming PM.

Fancy making such a huge decision, affecting millions of peoples lives, simply for political and personal power.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/neil-kinnock-why-i-changed-my-mind-about-britain-in-europe-brexit-eu

[idler]

Your last paragraph could apply to Boris in some ways Belton.
I'm not excusing Kinnock by the way.

[belton rover]

It was meant to, Idler.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It appears he didn’t believe in it until Labour lost the election in 1983. After that he changed his mind in a futile attempt to give Labour a better chance of winning the next one, and giving himself a better chance of becoming PM.

Fancy making such a huge decision, affecting millions of peoples lives, simply for political and personal power.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/neil-kinnock-why-i-changed-my-mind-about-britain-in-europe-brexit-eu

Glad to see it's not just my words you totally misrepresent. It's clearly a general policy of yours.

You are entirely at libert to believe that of Kinnock. But implying that those words in that article support you drawing that conclusion is beyond ridiculous. If not unexpected.

[belton rover]

Billy. You are quite unbelievable.

You accuse me of misrepresentation
You accuse me of taking phrases literally
You accuse me of not taking phrases literally
You accuse me of trying to change the English language when I comment on phrases that are clear.
You tell me I argue about arguing, yet that is exactly what you do regularly, and are doing now.
You refuse to engage my opinion without links, yet ridicule when I put up a supporting link.
You ask a question and I give my view with evidence to support and you accuse me of misrepresentation. You jump in on discussions that you have no initial input with, just to question my motives.
The last time I suggested WUMmish behaviour from you, it was in semi-jest, but I am becoming more and more convinced that you really are a WUM.

Just one question on the actual link that you accuse me of (yawn) misrepresenting: If Labour had won the election in 1983, would he have immediately changed from anti EU to pro?

That’s not meant as a rhetorical question, but it doesn’t take much thinking about, does it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

Calm down and think about what I'm saying.

I said you are perfectly at liberty to believe that Kinnock changed his views on the EEC BECAUSE it was an electorally unpopular stance. But there was precisely nothing in that article to support that opinion. In fact, Kinnock clearly and unambiguously explains in that article his reasons why he changed his stance. But you ignore all those and berate him for being a hypocrite.

My point is that you probably ought to have some pretty strong evidence before you start making that sort of accusation. And there is precisely nothing in that article to support that opinion.

In your last rant, you double down in that. You ask "If Labour had won the election in 1983, would he have immediately changed from anti-EU to pro-EU". But Kinnock himself says in that article about the 1983 defeat:

"For me, that was a confirmation, not a revelation. For years before that, it had objectively become clear that the operation of European Regional Development policy existed to counter the “centripetal pull” and UK engagement in the Common Market was promoting, not inhibiting, investment and jobs—though never enough. I heard my courageous friend, John Hume of the Social Democratic and Labour Party, describe the Community as “the most successful peace process in history.” Willy Brandt struck a resonant chord when he responded to a Labour MEP’s assertion that the Community was “capitalism’s adventure playground” by saying “It will only be that if socialists turn their back and allow it to be so.” Reports were coming from European trade union organisations of progress towards a “social dimension” and some of Labour’s new MEP’s were telling me of the agenda of rights and protections which they shared with sister party colleagues in the European Parliament."

That's his very words. In the very article you linked to.

How on earth can you post that as evidence, say "he changed his mind in a futile attempt to give Labour a better chance of winning the next one, and giving himself a better chance of becoming PM", and then be outraged when I point out that you are misrepresenting his words. Of course you are misrepresenting him. It's as plain as bloody day man.

[belton rover]

Of course he’s not going to say ‘we lost the election so I’m going to tell everyone that I’m going to become pro EU; let’s see if that works, is he? He’s a bloody politician.

In the link, he says in ‘79 he was anti EU but the EU had no relevance to the election that Labour lost, so he stayed anti EU. In ‘83, he was anti EU but this time the EU did have a relevance to the election that Labour lost, so he became pro EU to stand a chance in the next election.

Do you think you’ll ever hear Johnson go on record to say he tossed a coin to decide his stance on the EU?

[BillyStubbsTears]

You just can't help it can you?

That is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what he says. Nowhere does he say anything remotely like that. You accuse him of changing his beliefs BECAUSE Labour lost. Maybe he did. Maybe he is lying through his teeth in that article in saying that many things had changed in the "years before" 1983 to change his mind. But you cannot objectively read that article and even begin to suggest that his words support that opinion.

Well, clearly YOU can and have done. I'm just pointing out the error of that.

[Bentley Bullet]

I don't know why he changed his mind and went in favour of the EU. Maybe he thought he was wrong to be against it previously, and in fact realised it was good for the people of this country.

Well, that and his and their lasses 10 million quid EU earnings.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'll repeat by the way, it's not your opinion I have an issue with. It's the way that you twist Kinnock's very words in order to support that opinion. I agree that he is likely to paint himself in as favourable as light as possible. I just don't understand why you would post that link in order to support what you clearly believe to be true (and which may well be true) when it unambiguously does not.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

By the time Kinnock took up the role as EU Commissioner, he had publicly and stridently advocated our membership for over a decade.

What was your point again?

[Bentley Bullet]

In a nutshell, he knew what side of the bread was buttered!

[Bentley Bullet]

Just think BST, if you spread your wings away from this third division off-topic football forum and become a Tory MP, you might mix in the right circles and become a millionaire x 10 in a decade or so!