Brexit Benefits Log

[Herbert Anchovy]

Latest from Reuters  :

“Britain is on course to lose its status as one of Germany’s top 10 trading partners this year for the first time since 1950, as Brexit-related trade barriers drive firms in Europe’s largest economy to look for business elsewhere”

Just another Brexit Benefit right?!

but  , hey , we've cast off those 'shackles '

Foxbat, you missed this comment when you copied & pasted from the article

He voiced hope that some of the decline might be temporary. "Companies are normally always in a good position to adapt quickly – but this needs time."

So maybe this is only temporary?

[hstripes]

sorry stripy, I was just referring to the obvious advantages of being part of the wealthiest trading group in the world without trading borders and tariffs.

Hi Sydney. I agree with you that, in of itself, being part of a trading bloc is beneficial. I've not said otherwise anywhere on this thread.

Let me re-frame my question to you then.

Would it be preferable for those making the decisions in the EU to be democratically elected? Thanks.

[SydneyRover]

yes as in the house of lords

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting Michel Barnier appears to have changed some views now he's got other things to focus on.

[SydneyRover]

Interesting Michel Barnier appears to have changed some views now he's got other things to focus on.

Or has he had these views all along but was able not allow them to get in the way of his work.

The rest of the EU can see what a mess England has made of it's hokey cokey EU negotiations and knows now exactly what stabbing yourself in the eyes must feel like.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting Michel Barnier appears to have changed some views now he's got other things to focus on.

Or has he had these views all along but was able not allow them to get in the way of his work.

The rest of the EU can see what a mess England has made of it's hokey cokey EU negotiations and knows now exactly what stabbing yourself in the eyes must feel like.

Well if he did have them it's not a positive for the EU if even those fully integrated barely believe in the principles they publicly stated couldn't be moved is it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Blue passports. Crown marks on pint pots. When will these glorious positives ever stop, eh?

https://twitter.com/JonnElledge/status/1437349349433004037

[SydneyRover]

the link is not working billy, not that I can access the express.

[Sprotyrover]

Latest from Reuters  :

“Britain is on course to lose its status as one of Germany’s top 10 trading partners this year for the first time since 1950, as Brexit-related trade barriers drive firms in Europe’s largest economy to look for business elsewhere”

Just another Brexit Benefit right?!

but  , hey , we've cast off those 'shackles '

Yes Lidl and Aldi really suffering here NOT!

[BillyStubbsTears]

the link is not working billy, not that I can access the express.

Fixed

[belton rover]

the link is not working billy, not that I can access the express.

You don’t need to access it. Just ask Billy - he’s an avid reader, apparently.

[hstripes]

Blue passports. Crown marks on pint pots. When will these glorious positives ever stop, eh?

https://twitter.com/JonnElledge/status/1437349349433004037

The 'glorious positive' is that in a wide range of policy areas decisions can now be made by the democratically elected in this country rather than having over 1,000 new regulations being made each year by people with no democratic accountability.

After all democracy is "one of the most precious things that humanity has ever produced".

[SydneyRover]

And ratified by 798 unelected members of the house of lords.

[Not Now Kato]

Blue passports. Crown marks on pint pots. When will these glorious positives ever stop, eh?

https://twitter.com/JonnElledge/status/1437349349433004037

The 'glorious positive' is that in a wide range of policy areas decisions can now be made by the democratically elected in this country rather than having over 1,000 new regulations being made each year by people with no democratic accountability.

After all democracy is "one of the most precious things that humanity has ever produced".

You clearly don't know how the EU works or how all the positions from MEP's upwards are all elected, so this may help you....
 
https://europa.eu/european-union/sites/default/files/docs/body/treaty_establishing_a_constitution_for_europe_en.pdf
 
Unlike the UK system where NONE of the senior positions are elected, they are all appointed by the Prime Minister who isn't elected to that post by the people. Did you know that we have had several Prime Ministers who were members of the House of Lords and not sitting MP's in the House of Commons? Also, that one Prime Minister in fairly recent times, (Alec Douglas-Home), who was Prime Minister for a short while whilst being neither a member of the House of Commons or the House of Lords, (he had rejected a Peerage), until he contested and won a bi-election for Kinross and West Perthshire? Had he lost that bi-election he would still have been able, under our unwritten constitution, to continue as PM?

And we've even had one UK Prime Minister who was leader of the party that came second in a general election.
 
Oh, and there are two current sitting UK Cabinet Ministers appointed by Boris who aren't even elected MP's and haven't been elected to anything by anyone, Lord Frost - Minister of State and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park - Lord Privi Seal.

It's a disgrace that the UK doesn't have a written constitution to be held account to. The EU, having one, and following it, is far more democratic than the UK - unless of course you believe the Daily Mail and/or the Express!

[SydneyRover]

Thanks Kato, that's gobsmacking stuff.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Ultimately the UK government can't enact policies without Mps say so, thus there is democracy in play.  Not as bad as you'd think and our system does work (an elected house of lords could cause huge problems - America anyone?)

There's a valid point about how big you go though. Should laws be done on the size of Europe given the huge cultural differences? I think not.  Others may disagree.

I maintain I had no issue with connections to Europe, but most decisions should be held at local levels and individual countries (not just us), could be overruled in Europe. It is on a smaller scale also a valid point for the Scots, though they did choose to remain in the UK.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is how democratic our country is at the moment.

The New Statesman has employed election specialists to produce a predictor of how many seats each party would win, based on an assumption of the percentage vote share.

I've just put in the results from the latest YG poll.
Lab 35
Con 33
LD 10
Green 9
REFUK 5

The predictor says Lab would get 2 more seats than Con.

But if you switch Con to 35 and Lab to 33, it says Con would get 56 more seats than Lab.

Have a go. It's very eye opening.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2021/08/election-win-calculator

[hstripes]

Read some things on this thread but claiming the UK is not a democracy whilst the EU is. Mon Dieu!

Let me deal with your unbelievable levels of ignorance one point at a time.

The Executive of the UK is the Government derived from the House of Commons. All members of the Commons are democratically elected. All laws must pass by majority vote. All debates can be accessed by the public and the record of how all members vote recorded.

The Executive of the EU is the Commission. EU Commissioners are not democratically elected. The Commission does not hold public meetings or even make public minutes of it's meetings. There is no requirement for Commissioners to declare their views on any laws proposed. The EU Commission is fundamentally undemocratic from every angle.

Elected MEPs have no power to propose legislation - the elected European Parliament is an equivalent to the House of Lords.

Parliament Acts can be used by the House of Commons to overrule the House of Lords veto where necessary. The House of Lords is effectively a check on the detail/wording of Acts passed by the Commons which it can pass back to be reconsidered - it cannot block the law indefinitely should the Commons choose.

Having a written Constitution does not make a country a democracy. Even Communist and Fascist dictatorships can have written constitutions if they wish.

In the UK each parliamentary seat is contested individually and democratically. Collectively the politicians who win these seats form the House of Commons who like I say make decisions on laws by majority vote. This is democratic regardless of the narrowness or otherwise of the margin of victory of each constituency MP.

I am not claiming the UK is a perfect democracy. I'd much rather see a democratically elected House of Lords and a system of Proportional Representation. But it is demonstrably a democracy whilst the EU is demonstrably not. To claim otherwise is ignorant, ill educated nonsense.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The Executive of the UK is the House of Commons.

Your very first 'fact' is completely and utterly wrong. And you have the gall to accuse someone else of having an unbelievable level of ignorance!!

Hint: The House of Commons is part (only part, mind) of the Legislature. It is not part of the Executive in any way.

[SydneyRover]

The fact that so much of our parliamentary procedure and government is built around 'convention' rather than legislation is what has allowed johnson to ride roughshod over it.

[Not Now Kato]

Read some things on this thread but claiming the UK is not a democracy whilst the EU is. Mon Dieu!

Let me deal with your unbelievable levels of ignorance one point at a time.

The Executive of the UK is the House of Commons. All members are democratically elected. All laws must pass by majority vote. All debates can be accessed by the public and the record of how all members vote recorded.

The Executive of the EU is the Commission. EU Commissioners are not democratically elected. The Commission does not hold public meetings or even make public minutes of it's meetings. There is no requirement for Commissioners to declare their views on any laws proposed. The EU Commission is fundamentally undemocratic from every angle.

Elected MEPs have no power to propose legislation - the elected European Parliament is an equivalent to the House of Lords.

Parliament Acts can be used by the House of Commons to overrule the House of Lords veto where necessary. The House of Lords is effectively a check on the detail/wording of Acts passed by the Commons which it can pass back to be reconsidered - it cannot block the law indefinitely should the Commons choose.

Having a written Constitution does not make a country a democracy. Even Communist and Fascist dictatorships can have written constitutions if they wish.

In the UK each parliamentary seat is contested individually and democratically. Collectively the politicians who win these seats form the House of Commons who like I say make decisions on laws by majority vote. This is democratic regardless of the narrowness or otherwise of the margin of victory of each constituency MP.

I am not claiming the UK is a perfect democracy. I'd much rather see a democratically elected House of Lords and a system of Proportional Representation. But it is demonstrably a democracy whilst the EU is demonstrably not. To claim otherwise is ignorant, ill educated nonsense.

Firstly, I didn't say the UK wasn't democratic, do try to read what is written and comment accordingly, otherwise you just look plain stupid.
 
Secondly, try reading that PDF I linked to, then you'll understand how positions in the EU are elected, the powers MEP's have and how the EU operates democratically instead of spouting absolute rubbish you've clearly gleaned from the likes of the Daily Mail and the Express!
 
Thirdly, try visiting the EU's web site where you'll have access to a wealth of information, all officially recorded....  https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en
 
While you're at it, have a look at https://europa.eu/european-union/documents-publications/official-documents_en  where you'll have full access to the official journal of the EU, the European Parliament register of documents, Agendas, Minutes of meetings, Reports of Proceedings, Legislative Texts, Council Minutes, a Register of Commission Documents, Green Papers, White Papers, Minutes and Agendas for the EU Commissioners Weekly Meetings, (those things you claim they don't produce but that are freely downloadable), Audit Reports and much much more, (all in a choice of 24 languages).
 
But I doubt you will, after all, it's easier to believe your prejudices than it is to deal with facts.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

This is how democratic our country is at the moment.

The New Statesman has employed election specialists to produce a predictor of how many seats each party would win, based on an assumption of the percentage vote share.

I've just put in the results from the latest YG poll.
Lab 35
Con 33
LD 10
Green 9
REFUK 5

The predictor says Lab would get 2 more seats than Con.

But if you switch Con to 35 and Lab to 33, it says Con would get 56 more seats than Lab.

Have a go. It's very eye opening.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2021/08/election-win-calculator

Really interesting that BST but nothing new is it.  Just have a look at the 2005 general election result....it was a bit more than 56 then.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP
With respect that is missing the point.

What would the outcome have been in 2005 if the Lab/Con vote share had been reversed?

(And for the record, I think the fact that Blair won a majority of 60 on a vote share of 35% in 2005 was an outrage. That's why I have argued for years that we should have a serious PR system.)

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP
With respect that is missing the point.

What would the outcome have been in 2005 if the Lab/Con vote share had been reversed?

(And for the record, I think the fact that Blair won a majority of 60 on a vote share of 35% in 2005 was an outrage. That's why I have argued for years that we should have a serious PR system.)

I have no idea what it would have been. Remember in England the Tories that year had a higher vote share than labour and won less seats...

I don't have an answer on abetter system but neither main party would allow one and there's of course pros and cons to each.

[Ldr]

Posted without comment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/von-der-leyen-eu-state-of-union-speech-political-will-build-own-military?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral

[Not Now Kato]

Posted without comment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/von-der-leyen-eu-state-of-union-speech-political-will-build-own-military?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral

Interesting, and round about the same time the UK, USA & Australia 'join forces' to protect ourselves from, it seems, China  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58564837
 
The latter will most certainly happen, the former will have too many within the EU opposing it so far less certain.
 
Neither bodes well for the future IMO.

[Not Now Kato]

Meanwhile, more Brexit benefits  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58582860
 
Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving taking.

[Sprotyrover]

Posted without comment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/von-der-leyen-eu-state-of-union-speech-political-will-build-own-military?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral
Interesting, and round about the same time the UK, USA & Australia 'join forces' to protect ourselves from, it seems, China  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58564837
 
The latter will most certainly happen, the former will have too many within the EU opposing it so far less certain.
 
Neither bodes well for the future IMO.
[/quote


The French are not too happy about losing an £80 Billion contact for Diesel subs, interesting that since we cast off the shackles we have secured £Billions in contracts to assist building 15 Frigates for Canada 12 for Australia and now 8 Nuclear Subs, wouldn't be surprised to see Canada buying next and they need at least 8!

[hstripes]

Kato

The base requirement for democratic legitimacy is that the citizens are able, under free and fair elections, to both elect and unelect their lawmakers.

If UK citizens are unhappy with the current Tory Government then in the next General Election they can vote against the Conservative Party and remove them from power. The UK is therefore a democracy.

EU citizens unhappy with EU laws have no such opportunity as the EU Commission, the law making body of the EU, is not democratically elected.

This in itself totally undermines any argument, at the most basic level, that the EU is democratic and renders your argument that “the EU is far more democratic than the UK” as completely laughable nonsense.

However you cite the EU written constitution – perhaps it's content can help bridge this fundamental democratic deficit at the heart of the EU through allowing citizens indirectly but easily to remove or appoint the EU's lawmakers? Except it doesn't. Quite the reverse is true.

The one institution in the EU which is directly elected by citizens is the EU Parliament. So disgruntled citizens at the ballot box can vote in MEPs expressly promising to remove and replace the Commission. Except they can't: -

i) Under the EU constitution the terms of the Parliament and Commission run concurrently (give or take a few months). At the point of EU parliamentary elections the incumbent Commission is practically at the end of it's term of office. Therefore there is no direct or indirect opportunity for citizens through the ballot box to replace the undemocratically appointed Commission at any point of it's term of appointment. This is not democracy.

MEPs, democratic representatives of the people, can however vote to remove the EU Commission in it's entirety. Hurrah! The EU Commission can be held democratically to account. Except it can't:

ii) The EU constituion states that the vote to remove the Commission from power needs a 2/3rds majority of MEPs. Not 50% plus 1. 2/3rds. This is not democracy.

Unsurprisingly the Parliamant has never voted to remove a Commission. But say it did. Then the EU Parliament can replace the Commission with one that reflects the politics of the citizens yes? Except it can't:

iii) Under the EU constitution the democratically elected EU Parliament has no say over the lawmaking Commissioners who are appointed. This is not democracy.

There is one exception to point iii) in that the Parliament does vote for the EU Commission President. The most powerful political individual in the European Union. So some democratic legitimacy for the Commission then. Except there really isn't:

iv) Under the EU constitution the EU Parliament has no say in the candidate who is put forward to be Commission President. Neither may they be given a choice of candidates to choose from. Basically they are given a take it or leave it option. This is not democracy.

You naively assert that the fact the EU  has a written constitution defines it as a democracy. This could not be further from the truth. The terms of said constitution, as outlined above, clearly define the EU as not being a democracy but in fact being a meritocracy.

I would suggest you don't just read the content of some of the links you have posted but actually consider how they apply in practical reality, rather than simply making assumptions to confirm your own vehement prejudices that are evident on every one of your posts on this thread from the OP downward.

Oh and just to bust another of your prejudices: No I do not, and never have, read the Mail or Express. Neither, if this is what you are implying, are my political views in any way right wing.

[Glyn_Wigley]

UK citizens do not vote for or can vote out the UK Executive, just as they can't vote for or vote out the EU Executive.

Or are you going to embarrass yourself by saying the Executive is the House Of Commons again?