Georgia Gould

[Sprotyrover]

I don't have to because the population would flat line as it did prior to 1991

[Sprotyrover]

And what it says about births in 2014 is that 27% of children were born to mothers who themselves were not born in the U.K.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I don't have to because the population would flat line as it did prior to 1991

Source?

[Glyn_Wigley]

And what it says about births in 2014 is that 27% of children were born to mothers who themselves were not born in the U.K.

So? It's a percentage ratio. As I said, actual figures for both UK and non-UK births can still be growing even when the ratio changes.

Even if the non-UK were removed, the UK birth rate would still be above the death rate, and the population would increase. To replace the 5 million you want rid of. Than what? I'm rather getting the impression you're just trying to avoid giving an answer!

[Sprotyrover]

The difference between births and deaths is  approx 200,00, 700,00 births and 500,000 deaths take away 27% from the births,the difference is 50 k per annum so I haven't got a lot to worry about for at least a life time!

[Glyn_Wigley]

The difference between births and deaths is  approx 200,00, 700,00 births and 500,000 deaths take away 27% from the births,the difference is 50 k per annum so I haven't got a lot to worry about for at least a life time!

You're still avoiding giving an answer though - what would you expect to be done when the population grows to that amount again - or even before it gets to that amount, as you seem to think it's too many as it is? What do you think is the optimum maximum population for the UK, the tipping point before the country gets 'overcrowded'?

[not on facebook]

Said this before Glynn

If a lift has a SWL number of 12 persons

and the said lift keeps on having 20 25 or 30 persons cramming into it

What do you honestly think will happen to said lift in time.


If you have 15 to 20 just using the lift all the time it will get by but with a massive strain on its working parts

When lift hits 25 to 30 or more the working parts can no longer carry the lift and it will fail in time.

[roversdude]

Of course in this day and age there is going to be more births than deaths but not to the extent the population shot up
Add to that most British families have one maybe two kids and then look at how many kids other families have and expect us to support

[not on facebook]

Of course in this day and age there is going to be more births than deaths but not to the extent the population shot up
Add to that most British families have one maybe two kids and then look at how many kids other families have and expect us to support

2.4 kids is the average size of a normall British family .

Now without sounding racist or owt it's fact that the average family size of are friends from Middle East or parts of Asia is far bigger.

Now since certain races can't or won't intergrate into the way of British society that much higher family size rate turns into votes > not in my time or my kids time ,but maybe in my kids kids time them  numbers of votes will become a major issue .

[Sprotyrover]

The difference between births and deaths is  approx 200,00, 700,00 births and 500,000 deaths take away 27% from the births,the difference is 50 k per annum so I haven't got a lot to worry about for at least a life time!

You're still avoiding giving an answer though - what would you expect to be done when the population grows to that amount again - or even before it gets to that amount, as you seem to think it's too many as it is? What do you think is the optimum maximum population for the UK, the tipping point before the country gets 'overcrowded'?

I have answered your question what on earth are you rabbiting on about?

[Glyn_Wigley]

The difference between births and deaths is  approx 200,00, 700,00 births and 500,000 deaths take away 27% from the births,the difference is 50 k per annum so I haven't got a lot to worry about for at least a life time!

You're still avoiding giving an answer though - what would you expect to be done when the population grows to that amount again - or even before it gets to that amount, as you seem to think it's too many as it is? What do you think is the optimum maximum population for the UK, the tipping point before the country gets 'overcrowded'?

I have answered your question what on earth are you rabbiting on about?

You've answered nothing, you've just said you couldn't give a shit.

The difference between births and deaths is  approx 200,00, 700,00 births and 500,000 deaths take away 27% from the births,the difference is 50 k per annum so I haven't got a lot to worry about for at least a life time!

[BobG]

Actually, although there's been serious debate about the use and application of statistics, I havent seen any answer to the question of what should be done once the population recovers from the forcible removal of 5 million.

Cheers

BobG

[RedJ]

Well the answer is obvious. Battle Royale the poor people's schools to reduce the population.

[wilts rover]

Ahhh following the vote to leave the EU you now want to leave the World...

These people from races who dont wish to integrate would any of them be MP's, doctor's, nurses, actors, musicians' or members of the England cricket team by any chance? Just asking for clarity.

Thank goodness for all these foreigners in this country. At least it gives us someone to hate and blame all our problems on instead of looking at the real causes of social and political inequality and hardship. With the wealth in this country the most it has ever been - it is gained and distributed in the most unequal way it has ever been. And the more you blame that on the people at the bottom of the ladder - the more rungs the tax dodging hedge fund owners, property developers and arms dealers at the top will get away with putting on it.

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk
https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/jun/17/wealth-gap-rises-as-uk-home-ownership-falls-resolution-foundation

[Sprotyrover]

There is an example in British history of what would happen, that being the plague in 1347 . Prior to that the population was 4 million labourers wages were 3 pence a day, after 1 million people died, labourers wages rocketed to 1 shilling per day.
If 6 million peeps disappear from the labour market the companies which currently exploit their labour force will be in big trouble, they will either have to close down or put up their wages to a competitive rate, suddenly x million people are paying income tax.
Re locating your factory to a place with a favourable business tax regime might be an option.
Most of these companies are professional tax dodgers ,good luck to em.
The NHS will see immediate benefits because they can return to the standards of care they used to have,at no extra cost because as I said the 6 million aren't paying tax at the moment.
More tax income means more revenue to improve schools,health care etc.
As the population will now rise at its historical normal rate of 50,000 per annum an easily manageagable figure.
Problem solved!

[wilts rover]

How many of your 6 million work in the NHS, care homes, agriculture, service industries... or are you going to get the remaining pensioners back out of retirement picking strawberries and wiping a***s?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/22/farms-hit-by-labour-shortage-as-migrant-workers-shun-racist-uk

The Black Death was a world wide plague by the way, it didnt move people from one country to another - just rats. And was notable for being spreading false ideas and rumours in how to stop it.

[Sprotyrover]

How many of your 6 million work in the NHS, care homes, agriculture, service industries... or are you going to get the remaining pensioners back out of retirement picking strawberries and wiping a***s?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/22/farms-hit-by-labour-shortage-as-migrant-workers-shun-racist-uk

The Black Death was a world wide plague by the way, it didnt move people from one country to another - just rats. And was notable for being spreading false ideas and rumours in how to stop it.

You break it down and tell me Wilts, you are insinuating that we are a society which is dependant on cheap imported labour being paid the minimum wage and on zero hours contracts, the skilled folks we employ have been coaxed away from Third world countries where their skills are needed, how fair is that.
Migrant fruit pickers are staying away because now we have a weak pound they can earn more in France and Germany.

[Glyn_Wigley]

How many of your 6 million work in the NHS, care homes, agriculture, service industries... or are you going to get the remaining pensioners back out of retirement picking strawberries and wiping a***s?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/22/farms-hit-by-labour-shortage-as-migrant-workers-shun-racist-uk

The Black Death was a world wide plague by the way, it didnt move people from one country to another - just rats. And was notable for being spreading false ideas and rumours in how to stop it.

You break it down and tell me Wilts, you are insinuating that we are a society which is dependant on cheap imported labour being paid the minimum wage and on zero hours contracts, the skilled folks we employ have been coaxed away from Third world countries where their skills are needed, how fair is that.
Migrant fruit pickers are staying away because now we have a weak pound they can earn more in France and Germany.

But that's exactly what you said in the first page of this thread!

Because they are on the minimum wage they don't contribute anything in tax

because as I said the 6 million aren't paying tax at the moment

[BobG]

THis is a repeat I know, but the debate warrants it I think.

If even the press is starting to notice, then something, clearly, is up Sproty:

Interesting articles in the papers yesterday and the day before making the point that effectively we are reverting to a pre-industrialised society in terms of employment, the casualisation of work and de-unionisation. Wealth is increasingly concentrated, once more, in the hands of the landed and property and asset owning classes. This is in turn impacting wages and living standards. At the same time it is becoming increasingly clear that the only choice on offer for Brexit is either a hard Brexit with no single market or customs union access, or, to remain. Anything else is just fantasy. Personally, I still think Brexit is the longest assisted suicide note in history -  courtesy of Messrs Dacre, Murdoch, Farage, Johnson and Gove. A divided Tory party has now ended up dividing the country and the generations as well.

BobG

[Herbert Anchovy]

If you're smart enough you can use statistics to support any argument that you want. So, to simplify things I'll base my judgment on my own personal experience.

I've worked with many immigrants over the past few years. The majority were sound, one or two were arseholes. However, without exception each one of them worked their bollox off and paid their taxes, so contributed to the economy of the UK. Can I say the same about all the English fellas I've worked with? No chance! Again, from my experience while many are sound, a significant proportion are lazy bas**rds, think that the world owes them a living, aren't willing to put themselves out, chuck sickies, don't turn up for work and can generally be complete pains in the arse.

[Sprotyrover]

If you're smart enough you can use statistics to support any argument that you want. So, to simplify things I'll base my judgment on my own personal experience.

I've worked with many immigrants over the past few years. The majority were sound, one or two were arseholes. However, without exception each one of them worked their bollox off and paid their taxes, so contributed to the economy of the UK. Can I say the same about all the English fellas I've worked with? No chance! Again, from my experience while many are sound, a significant proportion are lazy bas**rds, think that the world owes them a living, aren't willing to put themselves out, chuck sickies, don't turn up for work and can generally be complete pains in the arse.

I'm afraid you make a valid point Herbert,but their previous willingness to come here and work for low wages has encouraged the situation where we find ourselves today, the jobs ladder has disappeared  employers treat their staff with little regard as there are plenty more where you came from is now the norm,look at the recent carry on a sports direct they are typical of so many firms today,that just doesn't value it's workforce.

[Glyn_Wigley]

employers treat their staff with little regard as there are plenty more where you came from is now the norm,look at the recent carry on a sports direct they are typical of so many firms today,that just doesn't value it's workforce.

Just like they did before there was industrial relations legislation, you know the stuff that the Tories have got rid of. The way they treat their workforces now is how they've always wanted to treat them, it's nothing to do with immigrants.

[wilts rover]

It's the fault of the people on low wages that bosses are paying them low wages - you want to borrow my book on the Tolpuddle Martyrs?

[not on facebook]

Please knock me back if Iam wrong but low wages is part and parcel of society is it not .

Can anyone ever tell me when there was never such a thing as a low wage ?

If your on a low wage and you want a higher wage you have to better yourself and don't wallow about in your own shite fealing the world owes you a higher wage.

If you was not born with a silver spoon in your mouth tough shit ,it's the fault of them that had silver spoons in their gobs that there are untold on low wages.

Society cant pay lower wage structure through life ,as a hard working welder would do arse up head down and graft .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Of course some wages are lower than others, but people still need to be able to live on them.

[wilts rover]

And employers in the UK wont suddenly pay higher wages if they dont have to - they will just lay people off and move to Mumbai. As this bank who were happy enough to take a bailout funded by UK taxpayers money have just done.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/25/rbs-to-cut-hundreds-of-uk-jobs-in-move-to-india

[MachoMadness]

Don't mind me, just wading in with some facts.

EU immigrants who moved here since 2001 pay in on average £1.34 to the economy for every £1 they take out.

EU immigrants who have lived here (NOT moved here - important distinction) any time between 1995 and 2012 (this means they could have lived here for decades, had children, grown old etc) pay on average £1.05 for every £1 they take out.

Non-EU immigrants who moved here since 2001 pay in on average £1.02 to the economy for every £1 they take out.

Non-EU immigrants who have lived here any time between 1995 and 2012 pay on average 85p for every £1 they take out.

So in reality the only group of immigrants who take out more than they put in are non-EU immigrants (ie the ones we've always been most easily able to stop coming in), and even then only the ones who in many cases have been here decades anyway. Note this figure doesn't take into account the impact any immigrant's children have on the economy (for example, if an immigrant from India came over in the 70s and had children in Britain), although it does still take into account child tax credits and other benefits.

Naturally those who are younger put in far more than those who have been here a long time, who tend to need more state assistance as they get older, and unless you fancy going around culling a load of pensioners there's no way around that. This is the important bit: if we stop new immigrants of working age coming in and paying taxes, we're going to end up with an ageing immigrant population without enough taxpayers to help support them. That's when the shit really starts hitting the fan.

If you're trying to make the claim immigrants are causing strain on public services, I'm sorry, it just isn't true. It's objectively, factually wrong. Mismanagement of government funds and failed economic policy is where your finger should be pointing. It also raises the question: if immigrants are putting in far more than they take out (which they are), who's going to make up the shortfall if we boot them all out or stop younger, working age ones coming in? Ironically, clamping down hard on immigration could actually put more pressure on public services in the long run as the population ages without a young immigrant workforce in place to support them.

Source is full fact, so there's no spin on any of this (not the numbers anyhow), though I'm sure some in this thread would like to try and find some. https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/

Not even getting into blaming immigrants for being willing to work for low wages, because it's f**king stupid.

[not on facebook]

All sounds ok to me ,but after saying that I believed that I saw a photo of corbyn stood next to a topless lady at glanstonbury untill it turns out some pillock fcuked about with the photo.

Iam not one for tracking down what whoever puts up as Iam happy with face value and above as value.

Only thing I can add is that U.K. Should have exact immigration policy as Australia as I belive they have a pick and choose type of system .

Which seems a lot better than the UKs free for all today.

[RedJ]

Iam not one for tracking down what whoever puts up as Iam happy with face value and above as value.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law.. the Nazis would've loved someone like you about back in the day.

[not on facebook]

They would not have  redj as I would have grassed them up fella, and their excursion into Poland could well have been prevented .

It's a bit of a very rude assumption is that son