0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
The Northern Independance party have an ex Labour candidate standing. It's a similar set up to the Yorkshire Party and they could well split the Labour vote in Hartlepool.
The first assessment of Starmer's leadership and the Labour Party is vast approaching .2 , The Tory vote shows no significant change , they scrape home in Hartlepool by the skin of their teeth , extremely worrying for Labour .How do you see this playing out ?
Quote from: tyke1962 on April 04, 2021, 11:46:18 amThe first assessment of Starmer's leadership and the Labour Party is vast approaching .2 , The Tory vote shows no significant change , they scrape home in Hartlepool by the skin of their teeth , extremely worrying for Labour .How do you see this playing out ? Suspect based on the feature I saw the other day about Redcar the Tory vote was holding up well up thereThese were people as old as me - and they obviously wanted Johnny Foreigner out of the UK so they voted Leave AND they thought "Boris" [aka Liar Johnson] was doing well and doing a good job - and had had "bad luck" with the Virus - and they said Starmer hadnt persuaded them back to Labour - far from itFFS I could not believe them but I man 1 vote - thats democracy I suppose
I struggle to understand what Labour's internal critics are wanting.On economics, the current Labour position is very similar to that of Corbyn and McDonnell (which in itself was very similar to that of Milliband and Balls, despite what the Corbynistas would have you believe).The existential problem Labour now has is not on the economics. They have an economic policy that 50% of the population would support. More than enough to win any election.The problem is that the Tories have diverted politics into Culture War territory. First with Brexit. Then with the opportunistic response to BLM. Now with the flag idolisation.And there's the issue for Labour. The 50% that would support Labour on economics is split by a massive gulf on cultural issues. 15-20% old, socially conservative Red Wall post-Industrial working class. 30-35% metropolitan, internationalist, minority-supporting, socially liberal.The Tories are going to remorselessly try to keep those two groups arguing. The deeply depressing thing is that both those groups seem determined to walk into that trap. Every nod Starmer gives to the socially conservative Labour voters gets the socially liberal wing screaming "treachery" or even worse, "Blairite". And vice versa. Needs some f**king cool heads in the Labour party to realise that both sides of the party lose if both sides insist on having things only on their terms.
How do you make issues such as this a non-issue Tyke?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 04, 2021, 09:19:46 pmI struggle to understand what Labour's internal critics are wanting.On economics, the current Labour position is very similar to that of Corbyn and McDonnell (which in itself was very similar to that of Milliband and Balls, despite what the Corbynistas would have you believe).The existential problem Labour now has is not on the economics. They have an economic policy that 50% of the population would support. More than enough to win any election.The problem is that the Tories have diverted politics into Culture War territory. First with Brexit. Then with the opportunistic response to BLM. Now with the flag idolisation.And there's the issue for Labour. The 50% that would support Labour on economics is split by a massive gulf on cultural issues. 15-20% old, socially conservative Red Wall post-Industrial working class. 30-35% metropolitan, internationalist, minority-supporting, socially liberal.The Tories are going to remorselessly try to keep those two groups arguing. The deeply depressing thing is that both those groups seem determined to walk into that trap. Every nod Starmer gives to the socially conservative Labour voters gets the socially liberal wing screaming "treachery" or even worse, "Blairite". And vice versa. Needs some f**king cool heads in the Labour party to realise that both sides of the party lose if both sides insist on having things only on their terms.I wouldn't disagree for one minute the Tories don't stoke the culture war fire .However there's a real one at play in Batley right now without any stoking getting done by the Tory Party .The issue resides in a Labour held seat .I try to look at these things with an open mind , on one hand we don't have any blasphemy laws in England on the other the portrayal of the prophet Muhammad in cartoon or any other form is considered blasphemy within the Muslim community with pretty serious consequences for those who do .It's a classic culture war issue of its own making .There's absolutely no way that a teacher should have to go in to hiding in this country when they are no blasphemy laws .I'm not saying the prophet Muhammad should be deliberately disrespected either .Until these kind of issues aren't an issue the culture wars won't go away .Labour have to come out on the right side of these issues because these are issues involving real mixed communities living real lives .They aren't all dreamt up by Tory Party strategists and ignored by the nothing to see here metropolitan branch of the Labour Party .
I struggle to understand what Labour's internal critics are wanting.On economics, the current Labour position is very similar to that of Corbyn and McDonnell (which in itself was very similar to that of Milliband and Balls, despite what the Corbynistas would have you believe).The existential problem Labour now has is not on the economics. They have an economic policy that 50% of the population would support. More than enough to win any election.The problem is that the Tories have diverted politics into Culture War territory. First with Brexit. Then with the opportunistic response to BLM. Now with the flag idolisation.And there's the issue for Labour. The 50% that would support Labour on economics is split by a massive gulf on cultural issues. 15-20% old, socially conservative Red Wall post-Industrial working class. 30-35% metropolitan, internationalist, minority-supporting, socially liberal.The Tories are going to remorselessly try to keep those two groups arguing. The deeply depressing thing is that both those groups seem determined to walk into that trap. Every nod Starmer gives to the socially conservative Labour voters gets the socially liberal wing screaming "treachery" or even worse, "Blairite". And vice versa. Needs some f**king cool heads in the Labour party to realise that both sides of the party lose if both sides insist on having things only on their terms.
Quote from: SydneyRover on April 05, 2021, 01:04:33 amHow do you make issues such as this a non-issue Tyke?This is an issue that goes way beyond British politics, there is a significant section of Muslim society struggling to come to terms with the existence of secular societies.I keep hearing voices saying there needs to be some sort of reformation but whether that can happen, I don't know.
TykeYou make my point for me.If Labour fights the next election on Culture War and Identity themes, they are f**ked. You have to understand that your insistence on playing by the Culture War rules is basically giving the future to the Right. Because (at the risk of repeating what should be bleeding obvious) there aren't enough voters in the country to put the socially conservative, economically radical Govt that you want in power.It's as simple as that.So you have a choice. You can prioritize the economics, which requires a Labour Govt, which requires you to grit your teeth and stop banging on about Culture War issues.Or you can prioritize Culture War issues. In which case, you can forget about ever seeing another left wing Govt in your lifetime.(NB. Exactly the same argument applies to people on the Left who are socially liberal.)That is why Starmer desperately wants to neuter the Culture War theme and concentrate on economics.And meanwhile there is a fascinating example going on over the Atlantic. Biden was castigated by both the socially liberal and socially conservative wings of the Democrat party. And he was bated by Trump who tried to beat him on Culture War issues. But he stuck to a theme that more or less ignored Identity Politics and talked about the need for economic recovery.And look what he has done. He's started the most enormous Govt spending package since WWII. $1.9trn. Nearly 10% of GDP. It's a massive left wing stimulus package, massively aimed at the poorest half of society.It's possible to have that sort of Govt. But not if you prioritise the Culture War.